Gas mileage of ethanol-added gasoline?

[rot]

Well i do not know a lot regarding how the range of fuels burn in say average Joe's car, but I look at solely on the fuel examples which are used to justify the claims. Granted we eventually will reach a place where it all makes sense and I do think Dale knows his stuff.No doubt.
When the "Expert" says Joe goes from A to B using a jet fuel surrogate(huge combustion enthalpy) and draws base therms/C02 out from that as example..I'm like no way dude. There is no fractional distallation refining stream from any oil company gonna blend back in a component that cost them buttloads in therms to seperate. (n-dodecane BoilPoint at 210C vs octane BoilPoint at 125C). They are gonna isolate this fraction and sell it to reap back their cost. In other words it aint in Joe's gas tank...
Now with that said, this "expert" hammers the ethanol blend with a Glucose to EToH CO2 charge..like Joe is pumping syrup and yeast in the tank..waiting a month for the CO2 to blowoff convert to ethanol then top off with some jet fuel..to takes the same trip from A to B.
This "expert" did not charge the nonblend jackshidt for the thermal ramp to get the freakin jet fuel which aint there anyway...but he sure does jam on its enegy output assuming Joe's car could eve burn the stuff.
All that aside..of course you are gonna lose mpg..but i do not see believe the CO2 cost are that different for an nonethanol vs E10ethanol blend..I see it as at least break even or I'll give a little to the premise. 54% is off the hook, IMHO.
Now the efficiency may add in significantly all the considered...I'll give ya that... but its like the nonethanol stuff gets to hit from the ladies tee and the ethanol blend is teeing up the pro spot. I cry foul to the stealth expert!
Anyhoo...I do not advocate ethanol as the cure all...could be functional and productive at some level i do believe...
Lord I sure have personally processed enough of it over the years...but that is indeed Chapter 2.
rot

[WØTKX]

Special delivery, for Paul:Ryan. You're Welcome.

[ab1ga]

Well maybe I is a doofus here, but I only see references sited from 2 places...the Energy in America article and the Intota whatever... I am not sure what Paul's original post points to (thought that was the dodecane one) but so be it.
...

rot,

I'm the doofus here, I'm afraid. I looked at the thread again and realized that the starting post was not made by Paul at all! It was the actual mileage data listed in the first post by WN9xxx (can't scroll back while editing, sorry, OM) which I was using.

That got me to searching the web again, and I found this blurb on a site called www.turborick.com. I'm not gonna vouch for accuracy, but here's what I found:

Gasoline contains over 500 hydrocarbons that may have between 3 to 12 carbons, and gasoline used to have a boiling range from 30C to 220C at atmospheric pressure. The boiling range is narrowing as the initial boiling point is increasing, and the final boiling point is decreasing, both changes are for environmental reasons. Detailed descriptions of structures can be found in any chemical or petroleum text discussing gasolines.

What I found surprising was the spread of carbon count (I can buy a heavily branched C12, but I would have guessed any C3 would evaporate out, unless it's part of a high-boiling azeotrope). It also supports your statement that any dodecane is probably being sold as a separate diesel fraction.

I agree that Paul has found less than a true expert, and should probably delete the item from his Favorites list. But the mileage data from the first post in the thread is still interesting.

73,

.dale.

[ka4dpo]

I saw this story a couple weeks ago:

Energy in America: Ethanol concerns bring customers to more costly 'pure' gas stations


My usual highway gas mileage in my 2008 Hyundai Sante Fe is about 24 mpg. That's with the 10% ethanol fuel.

Last week I had an opportunity to fill up with NON-ethanol gas while on a trip in Pennsylvania. I was shocked that I got 31 mpg for that tank of gas, an improvement of 30%!

So let's do the arithmetic. For a 300 mile trip, using the 10% ethanol+gas blend, I need 12.5 gallons. 90% of that is real gasoline, or 11.25 gallons of real gasoline.

Same 300 miles with non-ethanol fuel only needs 9.7 gallons of real gasoline.

So by using 10% "ethanol enhanced" gasoline, I'm burning 15% MORE actual fossil-fuel gasoline. PLUS burning the ethanol.

Almost forgot, while 93 octane gasoline will not produce more power in engines designed to operate on 87 octane it will increase gas mileage by about five to ten percent depending on the compression ratio of the engine and the fuel oxygen control system.

[W7XF]

Try running ethanol in a sport bike. I average 67 mpg with ethanol, closer to 80 without it.

I try not to, Kelli. My sportbike runs like shit on moonshine gas. Go out of Pima or Maricopa counties where I can get neat gasoline and she purrs.

ETA: My mom's flex fuel Chrysler minivan sucks down E85 like fish drink water. It gets 20 MPG with gas tho.

[KB3LAZ]

I try not to, Kelli. My sportbike runs like shit on moonshine gas. Go out of Pima or Maricopa counties where I can get neat gasoline and she purrs.

ETA: My mom's flex fuel Chrysler minivan sucks down E85 like fish drink water. It gets 20 MPG with gas tho.

Osmosis. Hypertonic, Isotonic, Hypotonic.

Not all fish drink water. =)

[rot]

rot,

I'm the doofus here, I'm afraid. I looked at the thread again and realized that the starting post was not made by Paul at all! It was the actual mileage data listed in the first post by WN9xxx (can't scroll back while editing, sorry, OM) which I was using.

That got me to searching the web again, and I found this blurb on a site called www.turborick.com. I'm not gonna vouch for accuracy, but here's what I found:



What I found surprising was the spread of carbon count (I can buy a heavily branched C12, but I would have guessed any C3 would evaporate out, unless it's part of a high-boiling azeotrope). It also supports your statement that any dodecane is probably being sold as a separate diesel fraction.

I agree that Paul has found less than a true expert, and should probably delete the item from his Favorites list. But the mileage data from the first post in the thread is still interesting.

73,

.dale.

No prob man..I think your road rocket site is on top of it..
the fuel trend that is..
and hopefully on top of it at 200 mph as well...
the bike that is.

Later,
rot

[N2CHX]

Well, ethanol finally took out my bike this morning. It's been extremely hot and humid the last couple of days and it rained all night along with the humidity. The bike is always garaged, but apparently that doesn't matter. You can actually SEE the freakin water in the bottom of the tank. I went to leave for a monthly meeting this morning and it wouldn't start. Finally got it started and it just ran horribly, spitting and sputtering and stalling.

So now what? I have to drank the gas tank somehow. And from now on we're buying ethanol free gas. We can get it at the indian reservation about 15 miles away. Going to get a couple of 10 gallon cans and fuel up every couple of weeks. Why the heck are we being forced to deal with this crap? I read somewhere this morning that part of the problem is that some fuel manufacturers are sneaking in way more than 10% ethanol because it's cheaper. WTF!!!!

[KG4CGC]

There's a good chance a lot of that water came from the gas station too. I've mentioned Star Tron before and while we do have a couple of E free gas stations, the gas smelled really oily. Like diesel with motor oil in it.
Don't know if you're running a carb or EFI but a carb is naturally more sensitive to these changes. Some guys run a carb with a device called Dial a Jet. It bypasses the carb jets, float and all that, sprays fuel directly into the mouth of the carb and has a twist valve to regulate fuel flow into the carb opening. If you can reach it while you're riding, you can adjust it on the fly. Never used one but some guys say tune for ethanol. I say screw all that. You can not possibly tune for all the varying levels of E from one gas station to the next and even if you go to the same station every time, there is no guarantees that the level of E is consistent.
One station that I liked in January started carrying what HAD to be E20 in February. They are a name brand station but I doubt they carry the premium brand in their tanks anymore. I use Star Tron but I have to clean the carb more often due to the E (I suspect) and run detergent fuels more often. I should do a tear down today just to see if it makes a major difference like I think it will.

I am no expert. Just a guy who runs a small motor that is telling of every little difference ... in everything.

[W3WN]

THE ETHANOL PART IS STILL CARBON NEUTRAL!

Screw Carbon Neutral.