Printable View
Game over for Mickey Mantle’s Restaurant
That's a shame. Nice place with a great legacy. Was there once or twice, but never saw Mickey or Billy, but it WAS a nice bar there on 59th St.
Guess it's already sk...called and got no answer. Wanted to get there one more time.
RIP, Mick & your restaurant.
Here's the shit
Looks like f*cking Rudy / Bloomby and the NYC wrecking crew killed another good ol' place. Sad. Another piece of NYC is dead. I guess it will be replaced by yet another sterile vapid crappy trendy overpriced yuppie nightspot.Quote:
Villano blamed the shutdown on “increasing food prices, shifting city regulations and landlord interference.”
Yep! We have a bunch of empty patches of desert where bits of old school Vegas once stood. Gone is the swagger and cool, replaced by the sterile Disney-ish corporate enviroment of modern Vegas. There are a lot of empty condo buildings here that got built in a hurry and never sold. Lots of people lost their jobs, livelyhood and history in the drunken orgy of commerce. It didnt happen, those sharks moved on and left us with only empty shells.
Americas great cities are those shells. Im sorry to hear about Mick's, i truly am because i know the feeling.
At this point, the man has been dead for almost 20 years.. no judgements, no disparaging remarks (from me).. but I'd love to know the truth about how he got a liver transplant. What misdeeds, if anyway, were done by the doctors and the transplant agency? It would be nice to know what happened and how we can prevent it in the future.
I know Mickey Mantle is a hero to many Americans, but the organ transplant system really got the shaft the day he got a new liver, IMHO/YMMV.
There were a lot of words here to the effect of what you're saying. Not everybody was on the same page about it.
Money, fame, and, in Mick's case, love can do wonders.
This is all news to me. All i know about the man is that he swung a baseball bat and hit a ball really well. His rookie card is worth a lot of money and he had a resturant that employed people and that had patrons who liked it. The man himself? Dont have a clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by W4GPL
I have to agree. Everyone has their faults. In Mick's case it was too much booze. Messed up his liver. None of us are perfect. But all in all Mick was a great guy in that he played some good baseball and make lots of fans and kids happy and proud. And patrons like him and his restaurant. It was symbolic of good food, great baseball and an all round great guy. A guy with faults but a great guy nonetheless. The restaurant became a legacy in and of itself just as Mick himself. It is sad to see it closing because it was a part of a great city and a still great city that has sadly is loosing too many of the things that make it great. I guess its happening all over the country. I know a lot of rural folks tel me their favorite town ain't the same after the small Ma and Pa shops and restaurants have left and have been replaced by the chains. We are all in the same boat. We are loosing too many of the good things that made our big cities and our small towns unique and spacial to those who knew and grew up with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by N7YA
Mantle and Maris were the Gold Dust Twins I grew up with, now even the restaurant is gone, all that's left are numbers on the wall of Yankee Stadium. (:-<)
"...the small Ma and Pa shops and restaurants have left and have been replaced by the chains."
Placed us in chains is closer to the point.
"We are all in the same boat."
Yup, and it's A Night To Remember.
Coincidentally Mantle and Bloominboogers share a name... EEK!
It actually sounds like somebody complaining, because their business wasn't flexible enough to change with the times.Quote:
Originally Posted by n2ize
I'm sure people said the same thing when Mick opened his place... "The old Stagecoach Inn is gone, everything good about this city is gone!"Quote:
Originally Posted by n2ize
A lot of people seem to get nostalgic about "Those good times", and not realizing, that was just "those days", and they weren't much better than today.Quote:
I guess its happening all over the country. I know a lot of rural folks tel me their favorite town ain't the same after the small Ma and Pa shops and restaurants have left and have been replaced by the chains. We are all in the same boat. We are loosing too many of the good things that made our big cities and our small towns unique and spacial to those who knew and grew up with them.
We lose lots that used to make the cities unique, and getting new things that make the cities unique, in their own right. You might hate or love the new things, but they are still what make up the city today.
Did you wax nostalgic when the village in Freedom Tunnel was evicted? How about when Alphabet City's shanty towns closed up, and were replaced by more renovated buildings? Did you get upset when 5 Points was redesigned into what it is today?
I know a little of Mantle's story; of course as a kid in NNJ, I grew up idolizing him, as most kids my age did. (Wouldn't happen to as great a degree today, since Ball Four came out, a lot of indiscretions that the writers would look the other way on now get reported on the front page, but I digress)Quote:
Originally Posted by n2ize
His family was dirt poor, worked in the coal mines. His father and uncle and other family members died young. Those are driving forces that haunted him, as he clearly didn't want to go home to work in the mines (before he became famous, of course), and he had an understandable fear of dying at a young age. His boozing & womanizing came in part from those fears, and from trying to live a lifetime in what was thought to be a much smaller time span than it turned out to be.
After baseball, I know he was involved in several ventures, most of which didn't work out financially, for one reason or another. Still, he had his looks and his fame.
I don't know how involved he actually was in the day-to-day operation of the restaurant. I suspect that his partner(s) did most of the grunt work, and his job was to be the face of the place, the main attraction if you will. Not unusual, it happens all the time (Jerome Bettis's restaurant out by Heinz Field is a good example of that). So once he passed, it's not surprising that the establishment fell on hard times; if anything, I'm surprised it lasted 20 years after.
WRT the other mention: Yes, a lot of mom & pop places are being displaced. It actually happened all the time, but now they're being displaced by chains that can run cheaper (economies of scale & national advertising), as opposed to a new M&P place replacing an old one. But those dynamics are a topic of discussion for another time.
Suffice to say: If you want your local place to survive, patronize them. And if they provide exemplary service or products, tell them & encourage them.
For example: There's a reason why our monthly club breakfast is at a little hole-in-the-wall slightly-out-of-the-way place called The Beach House. We could easily go to a chain restaurant a little more centrally located. But the food's better, the service is better, they like to see us come in, and the cost is about the same.
How do you know it didn't change with the times. These days "changing with the times" in NYC means turning into an overpriced trendy place that has no real style, or class let alone legacy. Micks was a great place and yeah, now its dead and it will change with the times and it will be just like a million other trendy overpriced dumps that can be found in any generic city. And it's not just old farts who feel this way. I know a lot of young people, early 20's and 30's who don't like what NYC and other places are turning into. You'd be surprised how many young people will flock to some of the older places because they appreciatethe style, the class, the soul and character that many of these places / neighborhoods have (or once had).Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
Changing with the times, includes changing to adapt current regulatory environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by n2ize
A lack of ability to adapt, given the rules of the free market, means death for any business.
Interesting about Mickey's background. In the old days there were quite a few ball players that were born into poverty. I remember reading a similar story about Yogi Berra. He was born to a very poor family and as a kid played "baseball" in vacant lots. Ditto for a few others I've read about.Quote:
Originally Posted by W3WN
And yeah, if you want some of these smaller businesses to stay in it is a good idea to patronize them. I see all too many places failing and end up taken over by the big chains
Yes, Mickey was a very warmly loved favorite. His drinking a fault? Not for us to judge, really. He was having a good time, was (AFAIK) a great, happy, fun-loving drunk, and who knows? It's not clear if it was his drinking that did in his liver or not. Lots of people drink lots and lots and don't have that problem. Work hard, play hard - the credo of hard-working, talented people everywhere!
UGV:
Or principled enough to recognize that, in this case, "change with the times" means shit-canning the good stuff and exchanging it with consumer suburban mall plastic, meaningless bullshit where everybody pays to wear ads for the expensive clothes they wear.Quote:
It actually sounds like somebody complaining, because their business wasn't flexible enough to change with the times.
He wasn't bitching about that. He was bitching about rent, regulations, and food prices:Quote:
Originally Posted by W1GUH
Villano blamed the shutdown on “increasing food prices, shifting city regulations and landlord interference.
That sounds like a businessman who can't come up with a flexible enough business strategy to cope with rent, food price increases, and regulatory climate; pining for the days where you could clean glasses by spitting on them, you could get potatoes for 10 cents for a 50 lb bag, milk was a nickel a gallon, and rent was only $50 a month.
Hell, people here pay top dollar for mom-and-pop restaurant cuisine. And, I'm sure they do in NYC as well.
It can be dangerous to start commenting when you're not embedded in the culture about which your commenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
I you WERE, what you'd be seeing is that only the deep-pocketed huge chains are now able to start up new businesses here. They've got the $$$$$ that the greedy landlords know they can get from those businesses. And that shuts down and shuts out a LOT of mom & pop type operations. And, it probably true that those big $$$$$ chains are getting plenty of concessions from mikey. Even the 2nd avenue deli was close for a while when their rent was jacked up into the usurious nether regions. Finally re-opened in a smaller space at 33rd and 3rd.
Buffalo and NYC are two completely different worlds, and any attempt to compare them like that is going to be wildly inaccurate. Different markets, different culture, different everything.Quote:
Hell, people here pay top dollar for mom-and-pop restaurant cuisine. And, I'm sure they do in NYC as well.
Which reminds me, you still coming in for the Tigers on the 23rd?
When it comes to things like this, it's not unique to NYC... It happens in every major city. Remember, I live in the second most populous city in NYS.Quote:
Originally Posted by W1GUH
Mick's wasn't a startup. They've had 50 years of operating already under their belt.Quote:
I you WERE, what you'd be seeing is that only the deep-pocketed huge chains are now able to start up new businesses here.
Right. He was bitching about rent.Quote:
They've got the $$$$$ that the greedy landlords know they can get from those businesses.
A sign those businesses (Especially 50 year old ones) have become inflexible. This is not a new environment they are diving into. This is something they've seen and been able to work with gradually.Quote:
And that shuts down and shuts out a LOT of mom & pop type operations.
Maybe, instead of bitching about the rent being too damned high, that's what Mick's should have done.Quote:
And, it probably true that those big $$$$$ chains are getting plenty of concessions from mikey. Even the 2nd avenue deli was close for a while when their rent was jacked up into the usurious nether regions. Finally re-opened in a smaller space at 33rd and 3rd.
True, they are pretty different. However, the dynamics are the same: When a person is bitching about rent, regulations, and food prices; that's just cover-speak for not being a flexible business anymore.Quote:
Buffalo and NYC are two completely different worlds, and any attempt to compare them like that is going to be wildly inaccurate. Different markets, different culture, different everything.
Actually that isn't true. Manhattan real estates and rents are through the roof. It is hard for many people to comprehend how much it costs to buy, lease, rent properties in Manhattan. I know a few business owners who had to leave Manhattan and move to the outer boroughs, or out of NYC altogether because, after decades, they could no longer afford to stay there. And all of them put painstaking efforts into being diverse, flexible, and , dare I say the word...trendy. One guy actually moved up to Rochester and he is doing quite well. The cost of rent/lease being a fraction of what it was costing to function in Manhattan. Had he stayed in Manhattan he would be bankrupt today. People I know who had affordable apartments in the Lower East Side could not afford to move back there today, despite the fact they are making much more money today.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
So yes, food prices, regulation and high rent is more than enough to put you out of business for good in Manhattan. Unless you are a chain or unless you've got some big money behind you. Manhattan has become a playground for the rich. The cool people all crossed the bridge and are in Brooklyn these days. But for how long I don't know.
Then there are some places that aren't flexible and haven't changed at all and still continue to thrive in Manhattan. Katz deli on Houston is one example. Still looks inside like it did in the 1940's. last time I was there they still had the sign that reads "Send a salami to your boy in the army."
^^^^ +10000000Quote:
Originally Posted by W1GUH
So, instead of adjusting your prices accordingly, you just bitch about the costs of business in an area where real estate prices are through the roof?Quote:
Originally Posted by n2ize
Good god! I understand the price issues in Manhattan. A 1000 sq ft retail space will easily set you back $17K/month (Starting, and that is for non-ground floor retail, which can easily fetch $35K/month).
So, instead of complaining about the cost of inputs, you do what every other business does: Raise prices, or move. This business wanted to do neither, so it failed.
Then people say "it's gotten too expensive!" and go instead to one of the chains that can afford to subsidize their outlets in high-rent areas with the profits from the ones located in less expensive places. The net result is the extinction of locally-owned businesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
People will, in fact, buy things (Especially restaurant dining) that are more expensive, as long as it's high quality; and given the proper atmosphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ6BSO
Case in point: 5 Star Restaurants that charge upwards of $200 per plate.
And, on the other hand, since Mick's is in Manhattan, and was started over 50 years ago, it was opened when Manhattan was a very different place than it is today. Real estate there was still reasonable. The issue here, is that Mick's got gentrified out of the neighborhood, and refused to move.Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ6BSO
That's the whole issue. An entire culture has been driven out of NYC because of high prices and greed. To many people who are not from NYC it doesn't matter NYC is just another one of many shitholes. But,. to those of us who grew up here, who lived here, and who developed an appreciation for the sense of culture and soul that the city has the loss of these places is difficult to adjust to, These things have meaning to us. It is where we grew up, it's what we remember, it's what we are a part of. It's not easy for us to simple say, "well fuck it", and it's all over.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
Now I understand that times change, prices go up, and we all have to move on with the times and forget the past. I also understand that the purpose of a city is to generate revenue and not to cater to "feelings" or "culture" or "soul". I am willing to accept that and move on. But, guys like Paul and myself do have a right to say it is a shame. Especially when so much of the outlandish pricing and over-regulation, and the driving out of the middle class culture the art, the music, etc. has more to do with greed than just the natural progression of change with time.. I don't expect people to understand because It's the sort of thing where you would have to have lived here, grown up here and been a part of.it all over the years to understand. It would be sort of like if you were to tell me about the culture and atmosphere of Buffalo and how it has changed. I doubt I would really understand because I am not from up there so I can;t appreciate things about Buffalo that you might. Same thing with NYC and many of the great and uniique things that have been lost too time and, in many regards to greed and a "get rich quick at all costs" mentality that has thrown away some of the very good and wonderful things that have made NYC a great place in so many different ways.
The problem here is that they didnt start out doing this, they started out as a neighborhood place, affordable, etc...they established themselves with that base, thats the face they wear. Try to change that and its over.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
edit....looks like you just said this, nevermind.
And the patrons of the stagecoach inn where Mick's used to be, I'm betting felt the same way. They were being "driven out" due to these newfangled motor horses...Quote:
Originally Posted by n2ize
The culture of cities change, the develop. It's not a matter of saying,"Fuck it", it's a matter of adapting to today's time, and not expecting everything to stay the same for over half a decade.
Gentrification is a feature of every city, and every neighborhood will face it eventually. It's the nature of the times changing. You might not like it at all, but neither did the residents of 5 Points, Freedom Tunnel, Alphabet City Squatters, et al.Quote:
Now I understand that times change, prices go up, and we all have to move on with the times and forget the past. I also understand that the purpose of a city is to generate revenue and not to cater to "feelings" or "culture" or "soul". I am willing to accept that and move on. But, guys like Paul and myself do have a right to say it is a shame. Especially when so much of the outlandish pricing and over-regulation, and the driving out of the middle class culture the art, the music, etc. has more to do with greed than just the natural progression of change with time.. I don't expect people to understand because It's the sort of thing where you would have to have lived here, grown up here and been a part of.it all over the years to understand. It would be sort of like if you were to tell me about the culture and atmosphere of Buffalo and how it has changed. I doubt I would really understand because I am not from up there so I can;t appreciate things about Buffalo that you might. Same thing with NYC and many of the great and uniique things that have been lost too time and, in many regards to greed and a "get rich quick at all costs" mentality that has thrown away some of the very good and wonderful things that have made NYC a great place in so many different ways.
The thing is that it doesn't have to be that way. There is no reason why a city can not remain affordable and still functional and profitable. . Gentrification can still happen but it can happen in a way that is not excessive and does not price people out of existence and destroy neighborhoods and destroy culture. . The problem is that there is over-gentrification driven by greed. That is unacceptable and should never be tolerated as par for the course. Trust me, a lot of residents are not happy with the excessive gentrification that is taking place. And I am not talking just about old folks I am talking about young folks and yuppies who don;t like it and who clearly see how it is ruining neighborhoods all over the place. We are not anti-progress nor anti-change. we don;t expect everything to last forever or to remain exactly the same for all eternity. Sure, some things change, some for the better. But that does not mean we have to accept change (gentrification) to the point where it tears apart neighborhoods and drives both people and businesses out of there homes. It does not mean that every legacy and everything that is good, cultural, and everything that makes a given city special and unique with its own special ambiance and charachter has to be destroyed in the name of profit. Because of this kind of greed our American cities are rapidly loosing their character, their culture, their flavour, their legacy. These may not seem important elements of a city but they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
If this is allowed to continue all our cities will be replicas of each other. Vapid wastelands of corporate profiteering where it will make no difference if you are in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Atlanta, etc. they will all be unified and the same.
BTW there are neighborhoods where people have fought against excessive gentrification and won the battle. And those neighborhoods remain productive with a healthy tourist trade, a healthy business trade, along with locally run businesses and a communities of working people who pay taxes and patronize their own local businesses. But winning the battle against greed and excessive gentrification is not enough. The war is still raging and, you have to win the war. People in those neighborhoods are remaining diligent and prepared to fight further battles when the need arises. They don;t want the city turned into a vapid, trendy conglomeration of corporate chains and they have proved that is not necessary in order for a city to be functional.
^^^ Let's here it for Mick's, and lets salute the culture and the cool people of NYC. Those who have been driven away and those who are still fighting the good fight to preserve the culture and keep the vultures at bay. The englobulators may have won some battles but ultimately the cool folks will win the war and will take back their neighborhoods, 1 street at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by W1GUH
You know, you don't have to "Take back" a street. You've just got to patronize the establishments you like, keeping them profitable...Quote:
Originally Posted by n2ize
Would that was possible.....but when rent for a shop goes from, say, $1500 to, say, $3000 a month with no notice...well, you get the picture.
And, coincidentally, if you read my thread about snakes in drains, here goes....
I got the snake from a friendly, neighborhood hardware store, cost me $22.95. At this shop, they have always had everything I needed, and they were very generous with help and advice. It's truly an "old-time" full service hardware store with great people to deal with. This is exactly the type of shop that mayor mike is killing! I really, really hope that this shop is financially viable enough to be around a long time. But current trends say that just could be just another Tarbutt's or cell phone store, or bank in the near to mid future.
But according to you, Corey, I should rejoice about that and celebrate when another junky but very useful mom & pop shuts down? OK...I'll see what I can arrrange.
Many of them were profitable but the excessive and largely "greed driven" over-gentrification has forced them to close doors anyway. It also forced the people who lived in theneighborhoods and patronized the establishments to have to move as they were priced out as soon as landlords found out that there were clientèle with deep pockets who would be willing to pay much much much higher rents.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC2UGV
In short, and I I eloquently stated above, you can have gentrification and at the same time retain culture and legacy. Nobody expects everything to stay the same way forever. Urban gentrification does not mean that entire neighborhoods and all the culture they have to offer has to be destroyed in the name of profits. Culture is just as important a part of a city as its ability to turn a profit. In New York many neighborhoods offered both, they were turning good profits and maintaining a stable cultural base. But greed and over-development took over and usurped the cultural element in the name of making more money for a select few. As a result we are seeing more and more of our once great cities transformed from cultural center to generic corporate wastelands and "playgrounds" for the wealthy. That is not a good thing and it must be fought, one street at a time if need be or, as in some neighborhoods where the residents have resisted and fought and won against excessive gentrification that is done entirely in the name of profits. We need not sacrafice one for the other.
Additional, encouraging thought....
The primary guilty parties are chains that just gotta be over-extended. Tarbutts, CVS, Duane Reade, Rite-Aid, Cell phone stores, bank branches. There are so maany of each of those in the city. They're everywhere. I've got a CVS, a Rite-Aid, and 3 Duane Reades within a block of me. I gotta believe that not all of those are profitable, and maybe, with a little patience, some will shut down. Hopefully.
AND...just today I saw a shop go full-circle. There was a Martin's Home Decorating Center around here that was great - got a great area rug there. Then Martin's went out of business and that turned into Pearle Vision. They're gone now, and the shop is reverting back to another home decorating chain. (OF brain cells can't remember the name.)