Refrigerators.

Hello.

Remember your first refrigerator?
Refrigerators were first converted ice boxes, and some of them are still in use to this day, the compressor and condenser was on top of the unit, a round affair on some models.
Next was the purpose built refrigerator, with the compressor in the bottom and condenser in the back, a flat top with sometimes an outlet for a radio, or even the radio as a package deal.
Frost-free would not come until much later.
But very few refrigerators were replaced because they did not work.
Nearly all were replaced for style, kitchen remodeling.
This leaves us with another question, what is it with this remodeling?
My neighbors have a ten year kitchen remodel cycle.
This last one cost around $30 thousand.
I can understand a kitchen upgrade, but 30k?
And why always the kitchen?
Me? I need a TV dispensing refrigerator and slot type microwave oven and I am all set. ;)
http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CCsQ8wIwAA#

I think it's because the Kitchen and the Bathroom are the rooms most likely to be deal makers/deal breakers when it comes to selling the house. But I think your neighbors just do it, because. Strange. If I had the dinero (I don't) I would alternate between kitchen and bathroom. They sound either very wealthy, or weirdos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzqW0YaN2ho

Notice the resemblance. Mere coincidence? I don't think so...

http://www.efc.ca/images/piccard-2.jpghttp://topnews.in/law/files/vladimir_lenin.jpg

Jesus! I never even thought of that...






http://img.listal.com/image/381856/6...on-trotsky.jpghttp://cdn.benzinga.com/files/george_soros_0.jpg

Boy, the Trotsky/Soros likeness is damn near chilling.

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Originally Posted by ki4itv

Boy, the Trotsky/Soros likeness is damn near chilling.

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In many more ways than one can imagine.

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Originally Posted by AA0CX

I think it's because the Kitchen and the Bathroom are the rooms most likely to be deal makers/deal breakers when it comes to selling the house. But I think your neighbors just do it, because. Strange. If I had the dinero (I don't) I would alternate between kitchen and bathroom. They sound either very wealthy, or weirdos.

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Hello.

Actually, yes, as a matter of fact they do remodel the bathroom.
Dealbreakers? for the money they have put into that joint time and again they could have bought a whole house!
Remodeling is one thing, but if you do it every 10 years or so it adds no value whatsoever, it is just an added expense.
But I also knew the other extreme, a gent who had worked for the local newspaper for quite a few years and lived in a very ritzy apartment in the center of San Antonio.
Once he left the paper his lavish lifestyle came to an abrupt end.
He died in public housing.

In most cases, unless the kitchen or bathroom is in real need of it, the money invested in a remodel is not recovered in the sale of the house. You would think that it would increase the value, but that's not usually the case, at least not on a dollar for dollar basis. Granted, in some cases, the value of the home overall is lessened by a substandard kitchen/bathroom... but again, the remodel usually cost more than the increase in value it brings.

You are actually better off negotiating with a buyer to give them a discount and then let them do the remodel themselves. Much of the time, they plan to do that anyway, so the money you sink into a remodel is essentially wasted.

That being said, the bathroom and the kitchen are high traffic areas in use almost every day (duh) and they do wear our or become outdated. So there are good reasons for doing a remodel. At the very least, a replacement of certain kitchen appliances (refrigerator, oven, microwave) are often in order as units over 10 years old are not as efficient in their use of energy as modern appliances, for the most part. So there are good reasons to remodel. Just don't do it expecting to increase the value of your home equal to or more than the cost of the remodel.

And Cowthief? LG makes, or used to make, a 'fridge with a built in TV. I wouldn't buy it (waste of space and a waste of money, IMHO) but we did sell quite a few at Depot during my time served there. (And don't let that name fool you, LG is the new brand name of the Korean group that most people know in the US as Goldstar, and their quality control hasn't improved much)

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Originally Posted by W3WN

You are actually better off negotiating with a buyer to give them a discount and then let them do the remodel themselves. Much of the time, they plan to do that anyway, so the money you sink into a remodel is essentially wasted.

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+ 100

Part of the problem is that bathroom/kitchen remodels are like weddings. Lots of chick emotion, and you'll only do it once, so the profit margin is huge.

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Originally Posted by kf0rt

+ 100

Part of the problem is that bathroom/kitchen remodels are like weddings. Lots of chick emotion, and you'll only do it once, so the profit margin is huge.

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When we saw the house we now own four years ago, it had a horrible looking red rug in the living room, a Pergo pathway from the front door to the kitchen & dining room, and you wouldn't believe the kids bedrooms. Plus some holes in the doors from obvious punches and other misc. damage.

The dog smell from the carpets didn't help.

Other Realtors told ours (N3PN, incidentally, and that's not a coincidence) that most of their clients took one look and turned around.

We got the place for $92K (they were asking for $110K originally), plus $3K back for the roof and other misc. repair.

Tore out the carpet & padding. Took out the Pergo path, just left a foyer around the door. $1500 to Home Depot for new carpeting. Got replacement doors for $30 each, plus one for half price due to some minor discoloration (which you can't see since that's now the inside to the basement door). About $100 or so for primer, paint and supplies. Another $1000 or so to cover misc. minor repairs, extending a gas line for the dryer, and so forth. Spent about $600 on the actual move, between one thing and another (we did as much as we could ourselves, used a U-Haul the last day, and had movers come just for the big furniture and appliances).

And we won't even discuss the landscaping work I've done since then, or the deck I put on the back of the place.

We've had more than a few neighbors tell me that people they know who looked at the house and ran away are now shaking their heads that they let it slip through their fingers. Tough noogies. That's what you get for giving in to the "chick emotion" and not actually thinking.

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Originally Posted by W3WN

When we saw the house we now own four years ago, it had a horrible looking red rug in the living room, a Pergo pathway from the front door to the kitchen & dining room, and you wouldn't believe the kids bedrooms. Plus some holes in the doors from obvious punches and other misc. damage.

The dog smell from the carpets didn't help.

Other Realtors told ours (N3PN, incidentally, and that's not a coincidence) that most of their clients took one look and turned around.

We got the place for $92K (they were asking for $110K originally), plus $3K back for the roof and other misc. repair.

Tore out the carpet & padding. Took out the Pergo path, just left a foyer around the door. $1500 to Home Depot for new carpeting. Got replacement doors for $30 each, plus one for half price due to some minor discoloration (which you can't see since that's now the inside to the basement door). About $100 or so for primer, paint and supplies. Another $1000 or so to cover misc. minor repairs, extending a gas line for the dryer, and so forth. Spent about $600 on the actual move, between one thing and another (we did as much as we could ourselves, used a U-Haul the last day, and had movers come just for the big furniture and appliances).

And we won't even discuss the landscaping work I've done since then, or the deck I put on the back of the place.

We've had more than a few neighbors tell me that people they know who looked at the house and ran away are now shaking their heads that they let it slip through their fingers. Tough noogies. That's what you get for giving in to the "chick emotion" and not actually thinking.

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Absolutely.

We've been here for 24 years now. House was a foreclosure (in 1986) and sat vacant for about a year before we noticed it. Needed a roof and some other stuff. We offered the bank what they asked, "contingent on inspection done by buyers inspector." Price was already lowballed a bit. They actually paid me to mow the lawn for two months before it closed. Got a new roof and a lot of plumbing out of that line.

What kills me is kitchens. HOLY COW! Go into Home Depot and replacing cabinets (including labor) for a place like this (maybe 12 cabinets?) would be $10K+. $1K per cabinet is the going rate? I'm thinking I could buy the cabinets for $2500 and learn a trade for the other $7500. Even then... what makes a kitchen cabinet worth $200? 5 minutes of labor and $20 in materials crunched out on a computerized saw?

I must be getting old to notice this. Kitchen here is original (36 years old), so it's "on the list." But so are three bathrooms.

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Originally Posted by kf0rt

< snip >What kills me is kitchens. HOLY COW! Go into Home Depot and replacing cabinets (including labor) for a place like this (maybe 12 cabinets?) would be $10K+. $1K per cabinet is the going rate? I'm thinking I could buy the cabinets for $2500 and learn a trade for the other $7500. Even then... what makes a kitchen cabinet worth $200? 5 minutes of labor and $20 in materials crunched out on a computerized saw?

I must be getting old to notice this. Kitchen here is original (36 years old), so it's "on the list." But so are three bathrooms.

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Well, at our previous QTH, we looked into a kitchen remodel. This was circa mid 2001. Home Depot's estimate at the time was around $12 K. There's a local outfit called The Woods that heavily advertises, so we had someone come out for an estimate. Good looking brunette in high heels (made her my height) and a tight outfit... I may be married, I'm not dead, and you notice these things... clearly expensive designer stuff. Meant to impress us, it didn't. Anyway, her rough estimate was about $18 K, and she was supposed to get back to us with a firm estimate and layout -- she never did (how do these outfits stay in business when they stiff customers like that?) Another local outfit, Kitchens by Dial, quoted us around $14 K -- and they do good work, NB3C's parents had their kitchen remodeled by Dial, and it did look great.

Now, by comparison, one of my wife's cousins & his wife had started a little remodeling business. She did the design work, he did the installation. Their cost? $5 K -- and that was WITHOUT a family discount. Had I not lost my job at the end of the year in a layoff, we would have gone with them.

BTW, Depot now sells pre-assembled cabinets. If you're willing to do the work yourself, it's well worth it. Is the quality as good as the $15 K kitchen? They'll tell you no, but as someone who used to work there and dealt with this stuff everyday, the answer is "it depends, but usually, not quite but not enough of a difference that you'd ever really notice"

Hello.

Yes, this couple has decided to scale back this remodel.
They would have someone come in and wreck the kitchen, just tear everything out.
Now it is very clear that they can no longer afford to do this, bad as this time the kitchen could use a fix.
They had bought cheaper installed appliances than the major name brand stuff before.
Now it may just be a fix up session.

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Originally Posted by W3WN

Well, at our previous QTH, we looked into a kitchen remodel. This was circa mid 2001. Home Depot's estimate at the time was around $12 K. There's a local outfit called The Woods that heavily advertises, so we had someone come out for an estimate. Good looking brunette in high heels (made her my height) and a tight outfit... I may be married, I'm not dead, and you notice these things... clearly expensive designer stuff. Meant to impress us, it didn't. Anyway, her rough estimate was about $18 K, and she was supposed to get back to us with a firm estimate and layout -- she never did (how do these outfits stay in business when they stiff customers like that?) Another local outfit, Kitchens by Dial, quoted us around $14 K -- and they do good work, NB3C's parents had their kitchen remodeled by Dial, and it did look great.

Now, by comparison, one of my wife's cousins & his wife had started a little remodeling business. She did the design work, he did the installation. Their cost? $5 K -- and that was WITHOUT a family discount. Had I not lost my job at the end of the year in a layoff, we would have gone with them.

BTW, Depot now sells pre-assembled cabinets. If you're willing to do the work yourself, it's well worth it. Is the quality as good as the $15 K kitchen? They'll tell you no, but as someone who used to work there and dealt with this stuff everyday, the answer is "it depends, but usually, not quite but not enough of a difference that you'd ever really notice"

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I think part of the problem is just knowing "fair value." If all the stores in the area are charging $12K and a decorator charges $18K, first glance suggests that kitchen cabinetry is really expensive.

A buddy at work did his a couple years ago -- had an in-law in the biz, so he got his cabinets for "factory cost." Paid $1800 for 15(?) cabinets. I did some checking online and figured about $2500 going factory direct, but I'd probably order one cabinet first to judge the quality. Just seems like there's a lot of profit and labor in this stuff, when you know a two-man install team can knock out a kitchen in a day and be drinking beer by 3PM.

We had all the windows replaced here four years ago. 11 windows and 2 sliding glass doors. Every one of them was custom manufactured to fit the exact hole it'd be going in. Quote was $6500. One guy did the whole job in two days (we figured he was here working for 15 hours). Windows and doors replaced completely, everything caulked, and they hauled off all the old glass and aluminum. The bill split it about half and half parts / labor. $3,200 for 15 hours labor?

Anyway, I'll have to look into the Depot cabinets. May be awhile the way the economy's going.

Just remember that Depot, and Lowes, and all the rest... the installers are not employees, they're contractors. So at least some of the fee you're being charged is Depot's (and Lowes') cut, at least 20 - 25% off the top. And you know the contractor isn't losing money, neither is the manufacturer...

BTW, never buy an extended warranty from the stores, at least not at face value. 50% of the warranty fee is kept by the store, pure profit. In other words, if they charge you $79.95 for the 5 year extended warranty, the actual cost is $40. Why do you think the appliance departments push these? They only make 10 - 15% on the average appliance... do the math...

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Originally Posted by KA5PIU

Hello.

Remember your first refrigerator?
Refrigerators were first converted ice boxes, and some of them are still in use to this day, the compressor and condenser was on top of the unit, a round affair on some models.
Next was the purpose built refrigerator, with the compressor in the bottom and condenser in the back, a flat top with sometimes an outlet for a radio, or even the radio as a package deal.
Frost-free would not come until much later.
But very few refrigerators were replaced because they did not work.
Nearly all were replaced for style, kitchen remodeling.
This leaves us with another question, what is it with this remodeling?
My neighbors have a ten year kitchen remodel cycle.
This last one cost around $30 thousand.
I can understand a kitchen upgrade, but 30k?
And why always the kitchen?
Me? I need a TV dispensing refrigerator and slot type microwave oven and I am all set. ;)
http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CCsQ8wIwAA#

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My grandfather had an ice box in the house. But by the time I was around he was using it as a cabinet and he had a Philco refrigerator in the house. It was a great refrig...problem free, and it had a door with a large V shaped latch. Depending which side of the latch you pulled down you could open the door of the refrigerator from either the left or right side. I have never seen a refrig with a feature like that before or after then.

My other grandparents had a gas refrig in their apartment and then they got an electric. I forget the brand however.

Yep, In the old days most people called refrigerators..."frigidaire's" regardless of the actual brand. I remember some of the old frigidaires with the compressor on top. And the old Norge "Rollator" compressors. Bet there are still some of those old frigidaire's still alive and kickin.

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Originally Posted by W3WN

(And don't let that name fool you, LG is the new brand name of the Korean group that most people know in the US as Goldstar, and their quality control hasn't improved much)

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i thought it was "Lucky Goldstar" ... and i'm not sure i want to buy anything that relies on luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W3WN

We've had more than a few neighbors tell me that people they know who looked at the house and ran away are now shaking their heads that they let it slip through their fingers. Tough noogies. That's what you get for giving in to the "chick emotion" and not actually thinking.

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this is exactly how i got my place: a combination of poorly-prepped property and bad sales technique. it was advertised as being near a specific neighborhood (which usually means it *isn't* in that neighborhood) ... people who came to see the property felt misled. the house wasn't in bad shape, but needed some upgrades (new deck which i still haven't done, electrical upgrade--only 40 amps coming into the house!, knob-and-tube wiring everywhere). in the house: a refrigerator, a chair, a file cabinet, and a bed ... not exactly staged for sale. pulled out crappy carpet to reveal decent floors beneath, painted.

asking price: $379k
typically-appointed properties were selling for asking+40% (so => $500k)
purchase price: $370k (yes, below asking price in a market fueled by dot-com money!)

i'd like to remodel the upstairs bath and kitchen but no $$$ for this at the moment.

Hello.

Correct, Lucky-Goldstar.
I remember the old GoldStar appliances.
Somebody had taken the decal off and removed the large G and S, leaving old tar.
The older Toyota pickups had decals on the tailgate and the Latinos would take everything off but YO.
Older Ford trucks, switch first and last letter and you get dorF.
And that reminds me, not only refrigerators had unusual doors, remember the station wagons that had the tailgate that could flip down, or open from the side? that was pretty wild.