Interesting Petition Concerning Emcomm Being Filed with FCC

[W6WBJ]

WB6BNQ recently mailed for filing with the Commission a Petition for a Declaratory Ruling under Sec. 1.2 of the FCC's Rules of Practice and Procedure, asking the Commission to declare that emergency communications is not one of the specified primary purposes of the amateur radio service; that Emcomm is supposed to be provided by RACES stations instead; that no grounds exist for the Commission to issue waivers of Sec. 97.113; and that the only reason why the Emcomm people are asking for waivers from Sec. 97.113's prohibition against employees operating an "emergency" station for their employers while receiving remuneration is that the ARRL has improperly been pushing Emcomm as a primary purpose of amateur radio. He filed the Petition in the already-pending waiver cases. It should be interesting to see what the Commission does with this Petition when it is filed.

But it won't be filed for awhile. Remember, the Commission is still afraid that someone is going to send them anthrax spores, so all their incoming mail is put through a lengthy irradiation procedure before it is officially filed. Personally, I think the Commission is flattering itself to think that any would-be terrorists would waste perfectly good anthrax spores on that failed agency.

[W3WN]

And then we wonder why the Amateur Service has trouble getting the FCC to take us seriously. :roll:

I hope someone with half a brain at the FCC... I know, don't say it... finds a good reason to dismiss this without taking action. Such as it arriving in a less than timely matter.

Sometimes, I wonder who's worse, the EmComm Whacker extremists at the one end, and the anti-Emcomm Whacker extremists at the other... :slap:

[W6WBJ]

W3WN, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Do you think grounds exist for the Commission to issue its waivers of enforcement of Sec. 97.113, and if so, why?

And assume that a filing is received by the Commission by mail in a timely fashion, but that it isn't timely filed only because they send it through the irradiation procedure before filing it. Do you really think the applicant should bear the burden for this by having his filings declared untimely?

[W3WN]

W3WN, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Do you think grounds exist for the Commission to issue its waivers of enforcement of Sec. 97.113, and if so, why?

And assume that a filing is received by the Commission by mail in a timely fashion, but that it isn't timely filed only because they send it through the irradiation procedure before filing it. Do you really think the applicant should bear the burden for this by having his filings declared untimely?
I'm saying that this petition is a waste of time and makes us all look foolish, because the petitioner has got a very narrow view of what he believes is the purpose of the amateur radio service, and by the very nature of this petition shows that he has little tolerance for what others may believe in when it conflicts with his opinion.

I'm saying that when one extreme on the issue takes it's fight with the other extreme public, we all lose.

I'm saying that if he wants to get hoist with his own petard, fine, just don't take the rest of us with him.

And I'm saying that the best outcome for the Amateur Service as a whole would be for the FCC to dismiss this petition without commenting on the alleged merits, if any, of it... such as dismissing it due to a technicality, so we don't all look like schmucks.

[KC2UGV]

I for one do hope it gets tossed out. While I'm no whacker, it's clear that providing a pool of radio operators during times of emergency IS A VALID PURPOSE of AR... States it right in the preamble of Part 97...

Now, do I agree with the lengths whackers will go through... Another thread.

[W6WBJ]

KC2UGV said: "...providing a pool of radio operators during times of emergency IS A VALID PURPOSE of AR... States it right in the preamble of Part 97..."

Right, but that's just the point. A preamble is strictly general in nature, and always sets forth general sentiments that may or may not be enforceable, depending on what the specific sections of the regulation or statute say.

Sec. 97.1 is just a general preamble to the Rules. It is Sec. 97.3 that specifically sets forth the purposes of amateur radio, and no mention of emcomm is found therein.

[W3WN]

KC2UGV said: "...providing a pool of radio operators during times of emergency IS A VALID PURPOSE of AR... States it right in the preamble of Part 97..."

Right, but that's just the point. A preamble is strictly general in nature, and always sets forth general sentiments that may or may not be enforceable, depending on what the specific sections of the regulation or statute say.

Sec. 97.1 is just a general preamble to the Rules. It is Sec. 97.3 that specifically sets forth the purposes of amateur radio, and no mention of emcomm is found therein.
So you're saying what, that if it's not specifically mentioned, then it must be forbidden?

[KC2UGV]

KC2UGV said: "...providing a pool of radio operators during times of emergency IS A VALID PURPOSE of AR... States it right in the preamble of Part 97..."

Right, but that's just the point. A preamble is strictly general in nature, and always sets forth general sentiments that may or may not be enforceable, depending on what the specific sections of the regulation or statute say.

Sec. 97.1 is just a general preamble to the Rules. It is Sec. 97.3 that specifically sets forth the purposes of amateur radio, and no mention of emcomm is found therein.

Yep, nowhere does it state that. If of course you completely ignore 97.4... :sarcasm:

Geez, I thought this shit was on the exams somewhere... Have they stopped asking questions about Emergency Communications on the AR tests since '07?

[W6WBJ]

"So you're saying what, that if it's not specifically mentioned, then it must be forbidden?"

No, it's not forbidden. Emergency communication is permitted, but just not on behalf of one's employer and while receiving remuneration for it. The Commission is supposed to be issuing RACES licenses, but it isn't issuing them, so apparently they don't think it is very important for hams to be providing Emcomm. And Part 90, Subpart A, Secs. 90.15, et sequitur, provide for a public safety radio pool. That is what these agencies are supposed to be using, not ham radio.


"And I'm saying that the best outcome for the Amateur Service as a whole would be for the FCC to dismiss this petition without commenting on the alleged merits, if any, of it... such as dismissing it due to a technicality, so we don't all look like schmucks."

That sounds like a government of men, not of laws, to me. That is not what we have. We have a government of laws, not of men. The Commission is supposed to decide the merits of such petitions, not find some phony reason to dismiss them without due process.


"Yep, nowhere does it state that. If of course you completely ignore 97.4..."

Part 97 does not contain a Section 97.4.

[KC2UGV]

"So you're saying what, that if it's not specifically mentioned, then it must be forbidden?"

No, it's not forbidden. Emergency communication is permitted, but just not on behalf of one's employer and while receiving remuneration for it. The Commission is supposed to be issuing RACES licenses, but it isn't issuing them, so apparently they don't think it is very important for hams to be providing Emcomm. And Part 90, Subpart A, Secs. 90.15, et sequitur, provide for a public safety radio pool. That is what these agencies are supposed to be using, not ham radio.


"And I'm saying that the best outcome for the Amateur Service as a whole would be for the FCC to dismiss this petition without commenting on the alleged merits, if any, of it... such as dismissing it due to a technicality, so we don't all look like schmucks."

That sounds like a government of men, not of laws, to me. That is not what we have. We have a government of laws, not of men. The Commission is supposed to decide the merits of such petitions, not find some phony reason to dismiss them without due process.


"Yep, nowhere does it state that. If of course you completely ignore 97.4..."

Part 97 does not contain a Section 97.4.

You do realize how the decimal system is used in document outlining, right?

97.4 = 97.400-97.499

Go back and look and read every section between those numbers... In fact, I can sum up all of them with two words:
Emergency Communication

It appears you need to go back and get familiar with Part 97...

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

The reason for no more RACES licenses is quite simple, no longer required.
After GW got finished we wound up with a whole new set of rules.
Federal agencies no longer hold licenses, even for aviation.
So if somebody is operating directly under federal authority they do not operate under an FCC issued license.
I know, this makes no sense, at least from prior viewpoints, but this seems to be the correct answer.
So, can a person operate without a license legally in an emergency? yes.
This has always been the case.
But what about non-emergency communications?
That is what Amateur Radio is for, Training, or so it would seem.

[W3WN]

RACES licenses?

We don't need no stinkin' RACES licenses. And we never did...

This is the Net Control, Amateur Radio Station K2DOH-EC1(*), County of Essex, Department of Civil Defense & Disaster Control Headquarters, located in Livingson, New Jersey. This station is operating under the rules of Civil Defense by authority of the Federal Communications Commission. All non-participating stations are requested to leave this channel so that the following radio drill can proceed uninterupted. This is RACES Operator #112346, the time is 2001.
(*) or EC2, EC3, or EC4 depending on frequency

Circa 1972-3. 6 meter AM with a Gooney Bird. Some things you just don't forget.

We never did need a RACES station license. I don't know why someone came up with that, but at least someone else finally recognized that they were redundant.

[N7YA]

Wheres Riley Hollingsworth when we need him most! :stirpot:

[W3WN]

Where's Riley Hollingsworth when we need him most! :stirpot:
If he comes to our hamfest this year, like he was supposed to last year, I'll ask him.

[N7YA]

Im just messing with old Bill there, he hates his guts. :lol:

[kb2vxa]

Neither of the two petitioners seem to realize their arguments are already covered by the rules as written so their points are entirely moot. So what's all the hubbub, bub?

"...he hates his guts."
But what about the rest of him?

We've only just begun to live,
White lace and promises
A kiss for luck and we're on our way.
And yes, We've just begun.

[W6WBJ]

KC2UGV wrote:
"You do realize how the decimal system is used in document outlining, right?
97.4 = 97.400-97.499
Go back and look and read every section between those numbers... In fact, I can sum up all of them with two words:
Emergency Communication
It appears you need to go back and get familiar with Part 97..."

No, you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG! There is a difference between the number "4" and the number "400"! Sec. 97.4 means just that. If Sec. 97.4 existed, it would appear near the beginning of Part 97, after Sec. 97.3. You are talking about Secs. 97.401 through 97.407, which appear near the end of Part 97. And apparently you don't know what they say. Secs. 97.401, 403 and 405 simply say that it is OK for an amateur station to handle emergency traffic in the event of a natural disaster. Those sections simply don't apply to training exercises, as have been involved in the cases where waivers have been requested, nor do they say you can handle emergency traffic for your employer and for remuneration. And Sec. 97.407 provides for RACES, but the Commission is not issuing RACES licenses any longer because the Dept. of Homeland Security has usurped the field instead.

KB2VXA wrote: "Neither of the two petitioners seem [sic] to realize their arguments are already covered by the rules as written so their points are entirely moot. So what's all the hubbub, bub?"

There's only one petitioner: WB6BNQ. And you fail to appreciate the issue being raised. Yes, the issues are covered by the Rules (i.e., such communications are clearly prohibited by Sec. 97.113), but agencies keep requesting waivers from Sec. 97.113's prohibitions. The issue raised by WB6BNQ's petition is whether grounds exist for the issuance of such waivers.

N7YA wrote: "Wheres [sic] Riley Hollingsworth when we need him most! [sic]

Yeah, the guy is missing in inaction! Have you heard of ANYTHING that he has done as Assistant Regional (oops, should be "Division") Director for the ARRL's NorthEast region (oops, should be "Atlantic Division")? I sure haven't!

And almost a year ago, "Nazi" Fred Lloyd of QRZ.COM claimed that Riley was going to become a guest columnist on QRZ.COM, but he hasn't written anything yet!

I think that Riley is so embarrassed about what a fool he made of himself within the amateur community that he is avoiding amateur radio like the plague. And good riddance! The guy did more damage to the amateur radio service than anyone else has ever done.

[KC2UGV]

KC2UGV wrote:
"You do realize how the decimal system is used in document outlining, right?
97.4 = 97.400-97.499
Go back and look and read every section between those numbers... In fact, I can sum up all of them with two words:
Emergency Communication
It appears you need to go back and get familiar with Part 97..."

No, you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG! There is a difference between the number "4" and the number "400"! Sec. 97.4 means just that. If Sec. 97.4 existed, it would appear near the beginning of Part 97, after Sec. 97.3. You are talking about Secs. 97.401 through 97.407, which appear near the end of Part 97. And apparently you don't know what they say. Secs. 97.401, 403 and 405 simply say that it is OK for an amateur station to handle emergency traffic in the event of a natural disaster. Those sections simply don't apply to training exercises, as have been involved in the cases where waivers have been requested, nor do they say you can handle emergency traffic for your employer and for remuneration. And Sec. 97.407 provides for RACES, but the Commission is not issuing RACES licenses any longer because the Dept. of Homeland Security has usurped the field instead.


I stand corrected. Part 97 uses a screwed up decimal ordering system.

But, you did read what you wrote: Amateur stations are ok to handle emergency traffic, which means one of the purposes of AR is Emergency Communications.

Just like I said in my first post.

[W3WN]

W6WBJ:

ARRL doesn't have a "Northeast Region" and it doesn't have "Assistant Regional Directors."

Riley Hollingsworth is the Assistant Division Director for the ARRL Atlantic Division. And he HAS been involved in several activities within the Atlantic Division, and works closely on issues with Division Director Bill Edgar N3LLR. (I have that direct from Bill, so if you don't believe me, ask him).

With all due respect, if you're going to chastize others on the minutiae, such as how the FCC numbers Part 97 (and keep in mind that they have renumbered Part 97 on various occasions), you need to keep your own facts straight.

Now... with that said... Bill asked me if my club would like Riley to attend our hamfest next February (he was supposed to be at the last one but a family priority got in the way). Tell you what... if he comes, I'll make sure that you know so that you can come and talk to him yourself, OK?

[W6WBJ]

W3WN, I would be more than happy to discuss my differences with Riley "Bullshit" Hollingsworth with him directly at any venue where my travel and lodging costs would be reasonable. For example, I promise that if he ever comes to Pacificon again, I will get in his f'ing face and tell him how I really feel! (I live in Northern California.)

"Riley Hollingsworth ...HAS been involved in several activities within the Atlantic Division, and works closely on issues with Division Director Bill Edgar N3LLR. (I have that direct from Bill, so if you don't believe me, ask him)."

Sorry, I've heard the League sing Riley's "hallelujah chorus" a few times too often. The League has very little credibility with me when it comes to Riley Hollingsworth (very little credibility on any subject, for that matter, except that they will credibly, always and forever use every available tactic, trick and device to scare up new members. After all, it was the League that wanted Riley appointed "SCARE" in the first place, and look what a disaster he made of the position (just as he had failed in his previous assignments with the Commission). But I will write to N3LLR and ask him what Riley has done as Assistant Division Director. I'll bet you a nickle that whatever he's done, it's just more of his well-known pattern of (figurative) masturbation. I think you should be concerned, however, with why he totally bailed on writing any columns for QRZ.COM.

I'm telling you, the guy's a frigging flake. And I've seen better heads on boils.

[WX7P]

Hi Billy!

On to Encomm now, eh? Sure can land a lot of fish in your boat, the good ship H&D with that one.

I moved to Sac. Let's get on 75!

[W6WBJ]

KC2UGV wrote: "But, you did read what you wrote: Amateur stations are ok to handle emergency traffic, which means one of the purposes of AR is Emergency Communications.
Just like I said in my first post."

Wow, you mean that if you set up a straw man you can then knock it down? What a novel concept!

Nobody ever said amateurs can't handle emergency traffic. The issue is whether they can do it for their employer while being remunerated for it.

[KC2UGV]

KC2UGV wrote: "But, you did read what you wrote: Amateur stations are ok to handle emergency traffic, which means one of the purposes of AR is Emergency Communications.
Just like I said in my first post."

Wow, you mean that if you set up a straw man you can then knock it down? What a novel concept!

Nobody ever said amateurs can't handle emergency traffic. The issue is whether they can do it for their employer while being remunerated for it.

So, why in reply to my first post, you replied saying emergency communications were not a purpose of amateur radio?

[W6WBJ]

KC2UGV wrote: "So, why in reply to my first post, you replied saying emergency communications were not a purpose of amateur radio?"

Because there is a difference between a given activity being one of the primary purposes of amateur radio (which Emcomm is not) versus the activity simply being permissible (which Emcomm is).

For example, would you say that contesting or working DX was one of the primary purposes of amateur radio? No, because Part 97 does not say that they are. But they are permissible activities within the amateur radio service.

[KC2UGV]

KC2UGV wrote: "So, why in reply to my first post, you replied saying emergency communications were not a purpose of amateur radio?"

Because there is a difference between a given activity being one of the primary purposes of amateur radio (which Emcomm is not) versus the activity simply being permissible (which Emcomm is).

For example, would you say that contesting or working DX was one of the primary purposes of amateur radio? No, because Part 97 does not say that they are. But they are permissible activities within the amateur radio service.

Actually, it does:

"To foster international goodwill".

Sounds like DX to me.

[W3WN]

W3WN, I would be more than happy to discuss my differences with Riley "Bullshit" Hollingsworth with him directly at any venue where my travel and lodging costs would be reasonable. For example, I promise that if he ever comes to Pacificon again, I will get in his f'ing face and tell him how I really feel! (I live in Northern California.)

"Riley Hollingsworth ...HAS been involved in several activities within the Atlantic Division, and works closely on issues with Division Director Bill Edgar N3LLR. (I have that direct from Bill, so if you don't believe me, ask him)."

Sorry, I've heard the League sing Riley's "hallelujah chorus" a few times too often. The League has very little credibility with me when it comes to Riley Hollingsworth (very little credibility on any subject, for that matter, except that they will credibly, always and forever use every available tactic, trick and device to scare up new members. After all, it was the League that wanted Riley appointed "SCARE" in the first place, and look what a disaster he made of the position (just as he had failed in his previous assignments with the Commission). But I will write to N3LLR and ask him what Riley has done as Assistant Division Director. I'll bet you a nickle that whatever he's done, it's just more of his well-known pattern of (figurative) masturbation. I think you should be concerned, however, with why he totally bailed on writing any columns for QRZ.COM.

I'm telling you, the guy's a frigging flake. And I've seen better heads on boils.
I see.

I have no desire to have this thread go off on a Riley rant, so I'll make this quick and then shut up.

I think it's fair to say that we strongly disagree on this matter. I've personally dealt with Riley twice during his career, and I found him to be tough, fair, and professional.

As far as what Bill told me, I'd prefer you got it direct since I don't recall his exact wording and don't wish to mis-state something and further inflame the issue. I do know he (Riley) was very involved behind-the scenes in some of the webinars that Bill had put on (at his own out-of-pocket expense, not the League's) for the Atlantic Division, and I know from my lawyer that Riley has been involved in some other things. You should get the information direct, not second hand, though, as I didn't exactly take notes.

But consider: People used to complain that Riley was too public. Now that he's working in the background, the complaint is that he's not visible enough?

As to what happened with QRZ, maybe you should be asking Fred. For all we know, Riley wrote a column or two and had them rejected out of hand... or other things. I don't know, and I'd rather not guess.

And, in the immortal words of Forrest Gump,
And that's all I have to say about that.

[kb2vxa]

KB2VXA wrote: "Neither of the two petitioners seem [sic] to realize their arguments are already covered by the rules as written so their points are entirely moot. So what's all the hubbub, bub?"

"There's only one petitioner: WB6BNQ. And you fail to appreciate the issue being raised."
Have you forgotten the first who petitioned pro emcomm and started this whole mess? I haven't, that's why I "appreciate" the ENTIRE issue and not the sequel alone. Pardon my sarcasm in quotes, frankly I don't appreciate ANY of it meaning the whole mess belongs in the round file cabinet.

[N7YA]

N7YA wrote: "Wheres [sic] Riley Hollingsworth when we need him most! [sic]

Yeah, the guy is missing in inaction! Have you heard of ANYTHING that he has done as Assistant Regional Director for the ARRL's NorthEast region? I sure haven't!

And almost a year ago, "Nazi" Fred Lloyd of QRZ.COM claimed that Riley was going to become a guest columnist on QRZ.COM, but he hasn't written anything yet!

I think that Riley is so embarrassed about what a fool he made of himself within the amateur community that he is avoiding amateur radio like the plague. And good riddance! The guy did more damage to the amateur radio service than anyone else has ever done.


I dont know. First off, i never really paid attention to him as he was powerless to stop psychosis from happening in lonely old mens heads who have gear. As for enforcement, he seemed to be the only guy who gave a shit and he was alone on it. Ham radio is dead to the world, and to us, we just do what we can to have fun with it anymore.

And ill have to disagree, i think the most damage inflicted on ham radio are hams themselves. But I will agree, Fred turned into a total web nazi.