Oh calamity, we are getting windmills in our county

[KK4AMI]

I went to a county supervisors meeting to listen to the discussion about a company called Apex Energy. They want to build 150 600 ft tall windmills on 22,000 acres of our county. I have no issue with wind power for electrical generation and I especially have no problem with a little more industry in this very rural county to pick up the local economy. I guess I can even get use to those monster towers with their 200 ft rotors.
1. I do wonder however, how much they will help our county in the long run.
They are leasing Weyerhauser logging land. Normally that land is open to hunting. If the windmills go up it will be closed to hunting. Our rural county does pick up a lot of tourist hunter and fishing dollars.
2. These towers will be just north of the airport, while the regular power towers are just south of the airport. I think it is going to be tough on the pilots.
3. Apex bragged about setting up windmill farms all over the US, but none of these farms resulted in the shutdown of a single coal, nuclear or natural gas plant. What gives? Is this just a technology demonstration?
4 Of course the standard Ham fears, will 150 200 ft Dia rotors rotating at 19 rpm screw up my AM, FM and shortwave listening pleasure? The farm will be about 20 miles north of me.

[KG4NEL]

I don't see how it's a zero-sum game. The "clean coal" lobby isn't just going to roll over and die because some wind or solar farms go up. The more, the better - and maybe if people see that renewable energy isn't Obama's secret Kenyan plot to steal their children in the night people will be more likely to vote on pro-environmental policies instead of burning whatever's cheaper at the time.

The next county over from me is throwing a fit over some new solar farms. I can't think of a better industrial neighbor.

[n2ize]

I say Go Nuclear !! Only problem is the words "nuclear" or "radioactive" strike intense fear in the hearts of most Americans.

[PA5COR]

Nuclear didn't work out so good for Chernobyl or TMI or Fukushima.
Wind and solar are at the moment the largest or only added energy supply's to new plants in the USA, the new plan from Obama will shutter the old coal plants anyway.
Germany now gets 50 - 75 % from renewables Denmark Portugal Spain etc in the same ball park.
Even China is now installing wind and solar like mad and closing down the old coal plants.

Coal is on the way out, the industry might fight it but it's a done case.

[KK4AMI]

I know it's a necessary change over, but I still wonder if it is practical. There is currently no way to store energy, so I guess we still have to keep the fossil fuel plants around for those non wind days.
The opposition is throwing every counter environmental and health issue they can think of, ie. It's going to cause flicker, kill the bald eagle population, lower the surrounding real estate values, etc, etc.
The funny part about this is that Apex is a company based out of Charlottesville where I just came from. I kinda feel like I should root for the home team. We use to make jokes about Apex, calling it a Democratic Political Action Committee. The only way they are making money at this venture is through all the Federal tax breaks. So in this case are tax breaks good or bad? That was just rhetorical, don't want politics here.

[KC2UGV]

I know it's a necessary change over, but I still wonder if it is practical. There is currently no way to store energy, so I guess we still have to keep the fossil fuel plants around for those non wind days.
The opposition is throwing every counter environmental and health issue they can think of, ie. It's going to cause flicker, kill the bald eagle population, lower the surrounding real estate values, etc, etc.
The funny part about this is that Apex is a company based out of Charlottesville where I just came from. I kinda feel like I should root for the home team. We use to make jokes about Apex, calling it a Democratic Political Action Committee. The only way they are making money at this venture is through all the Federal tax breaks. So in this case are tax breaks good or bad? That was just rhetorical, don't want politics here.

What do you mean there's no way to store energy?

Flywheels? Battery? Supercaps?

The windmills here in WNY charge a flywheel, which levels energy production somewhat. Sometimes, they do shut down, mainly because it's easier to turn down a windmill than it is to turn down a coal producer.

[PA5COR]

Pumping water up to higer reservoirs when there is an excess of generated electricity, and use that to power generators when there is a shortage, Molten salt to store heat to be used to drive turbines when there is a need for, heat special oil to release the stored heat, etc etc.

Combine the wind turbines with other alternative energy producers to get a 24/7 production it's all done over the world, I can't see any reason the USA can't do that.

Prices for electicity where wind turbines are build or solar is used nose dived.

[KK4AMI]

I'm aware that there are plenty of ways to store energy, just as I'm aware we currently don't have them. Won't the designing and manufacturing of such storage facilities jack up the costs of "alternative energy"? One of the arguments they used at the meeting was that natural gas plants will be cheaper per kilowatt.

[PA5COR]

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/13/solar-wind-power-prices-often-lower-fossil-fuel-power-prices/
Wind and solar electricity have become some of our least expensive ways to generate electricity in several markets around the world (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/13/solar-wind-power-prices-often-lower-fossil-fuel-power-prices/).
Wind is now the cheapest way to bring new electricity generation to the grid in the US as well as many other countries. Solar PV costs are rapidly dropping and solar is expected to join wind over the next few years. Furthermore, low-cost utility-scale solar is already beating out all other sources of electricity in some bidding processes, and home solar power beats the price of retail electricity (on average) in many markets.

Wind power, on average, sold for 2.5¢ per kilowatt-hour (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/08/23/cost-of-wind-energy-25-per-mwh-and-falling/) in the US in 2013, when looking at PPA prices (2014 numbers are due to come out this week). That’s the average for all reported PPAs, which means they’re a bit under 4¢ per kilowatt-hour without subsidies. These super-low prices are extremely hard to beat, and demonstrate why so much of the electricity generation capacity added in the past few years has come from wind power plants.


Solar PV power prices vary a lot, based on region, size of the project, type of technology, and other factors, but we’re already seeing solar PV projects win PPAs where the promised electricity is cheaper than electricity from new natural gas, coal, or nuclear power plants.
Solar prices are still dropping very rapidly.

In Austin (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/03/13/solar-sold-less-5%C2%A2kwh-austin-texas/), a SunEdison power plant (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/21/austin-energy-cheap-solar-5-cents-kwh-recurrent-energy/) won a PPA to sell Austin Energy electricity for less than 5¢/kWh. Federal subsidy would come to ~ 2¢/kWh, which is much lower than then the estimated 9–27¢/kWh in health costs that coal brings us, and I would presume less than the health and environmental costs of natural gas (but I haven’t seen a thorough analysis on that) — and that’s not even taking into account their own subsidies. (Note that Austin Energy has now designated solar power as its default energy generation method (http://costofsolar.com/austin-solar-city-chooses-solar-default-energy-generation-2024/) through 2024.)


In Dubai (in the UAE), ACWA Power bid just 5.98¢/kWh (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/11/29/dubai-shatters-solar-tariff-records-worldwide-lowest-ever/) to provide electricity from a solar power to the Dubai Electricity & Water Authority (DEWA) — without subsidy. That was a world record low bid, but even if ACWA Power didn’t exist, the record would have been broken by the second-lowest bid, which was 6.13¢/kWh and came from Fotowatio Renewables & Saudi Abdul Latif Jameel Energy. Both bids came well below the average price of electricity from natural gas in the region (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/24/cheapest-solar-world-michael-liebreich-interview-series/), 9¢/kWh.

Lastly, while we didn’t get to see any numbers on a Minnesota case, a judge ruled that a solar power plant there offered a better deal (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/01/02/judge-rules-solar-power-better-deal-minnesota-natural-gas/) for ratepayers than several competing natural gas power plants.

On average, rooftop solar power has hit “socket parity” or “grid parity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity)” in Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, Australia, Hawaii, California, Arizona, and several other countries and US states.

Deutsche Bank actually predicts (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/29/solar-grid-parity-us-states-2016-says-deutsche-bank/) that all 50 US states will be at grid parity by 2016 — that’s next year. (Note that it takes several years to build coal, natural gas, or nuclear power plants.) Deutsche Bank also predicts (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/14/deutsche-bank-predicts-solar-grid-parity-80-global-market-2017/) that ~80% of the global electricity market will be at grid parity by 2017. This is why solar power is scaring coal companies, natural gas companies, and utilities so much, and why you see so many anti-solar myths out there being repeated over and over again… despite being several years out of date.




Nuff said me thinks.

[KK4AMI]

I hear you loud and clear. All that stuff was recited at our county meeting. The other guys countered with the fact that current wind energy prices are being held artificially low by Federal subsidies and by the fact that fossil fuel plants still have to back them up until they get power storage capability which will raise the cost.

[KK4AMI]

Oh, question for the group. Have any of you been close to a 600 ft tall wind farm in action? What does it sound like?

[WØTKX]

Almost silent. When they turn due to wind direction changes, you might hear a low rumble.

[N8XE]

I am weird.. I like the look of thousands of big wind farms. But not in my backyard :mrgreen:

All good question by the way. I do hope we find ways to harness solar energy more. I mean, it is free for the taking. Combine that with the storage mechanisms mentioned above (which I had no idea about, thanks for sharing!! Spend some time looking that stuff up) we could get away from non-renewable sources of energy. There is only so much coal in the ground and of course the environmental effects of it.

73,
Jason N8XE

[WØTKX]

14207

[KC2UGV]

I hear you loud and clear. All that stuff was recited at our county meeting. The other guys countered with the fact that current wind energy prices are being held artificially low by Federal subsidies and by the fact that fossil fuel plants still have to back them up until they get power storage capability which will raise the cost.

... or until the government stops subsidizing coal and gas generation plants...

[KC2UGV]

Oh, question for the group. Have any of you been close to a 600 ft tall wind farm in action? What does it sound like?

Down by the waterfront, no. Whatever noise is dwarfed by the wind noise. Down in our southtowns, I didn't hear them.

[KG4NEL]

I'm aware that there are plenty of ways to store energy, just as I'm aware we currently don't have them. Won't the designing and manufacturing of such storage facilities jack up the costs of "alternative energy"? One of the arguments they used at the meeting was that natural gas plants will be cheaper per kilowatt.

For now. Liquid propane was also 80 cents/gallon when my folks built their place in '99...

[KG4NEL]

I am weird.. I like the look of thousands of big wind farms. But not in my backyard :mrgreen:

All good question by the way. I do hope we find ways to harness solar energy more. I mean, it is free for the taking. Combine that with the storage mechanisms mentioned above (which I had no idea about, thanks for sharing!! Spend some time looking that stuff up) we could get away from non-renewable sources of energy. There is only so much coal in the ground and of course the environmental effects of it.

73,
Jason N8XE

Ultimately, I think we're going to have to go with PV on everyone's house, even if the siting isn't the best. Distributed generation is the only model that makes any sense.

[PA5COR]

Oil coal gas, fuel gets subsidised as well, so if you want to read the whole piece following the linky please...
Add the health problems caused by fossile fuel and health care costs, add that to the costs.
Prices of electricity cam down considerably when the wind turbines popped up in larger numbers and became even cheaper, I have a few within 2000 meters of my house and don't care they are there.
Noise? huh? changing readings on VHF or UHF through the blades? huh? not noticed here, nor close to the turbines.
Store capacity can be build at the same time as the turbines or solar plants are build, or on a distance because all Europe's grid is interconnected.
Costs will go down that way, and still be lower as oil, coal or gas.
At the same time cleaning up the air we breathe, another benefit.



I hear you loud and clear. All that stuff was recited at our county meeting. The other guys countered with the fact that current wind energy prices are being held artificially low by Federal subsidies and by the fact that fossil fuel plants still have to back them up until they get power storage capability which will raise the cost.

[WØTKX]

When you get close (about 200') to them, there is a whoosh that is audible, with a doppler shift.
As a blade approaches the ground. Didn't notice the noise from the other two blades.
So it's one whoosh, then another. Installations and designs may vary.

Rhythmical, and not unpleasant. Certainly not like traffic or jet noise.

But some, being sensitive and aware, will find it intrusive. (http://scotlandagainstspin.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Effects_of_Windfarms_pdf_02.05.12.pdf)



It all keeps getting better, it's not perfect. Photovoltaics have some issues too.

Isn't it better than using extracted resources that pollute?

[KK4AMI]

Meditative Retreaters, Those are two words I never expected to hear together. I'm only asking because that seems to be a complaint. Me, I could care less, I'm near deaf and live in a house at the end of a runway and with 200 ft power towers crossing the Albemarle Sound. With a good Margarita in the afternoon, to say I'm nearly oblivious to my surroundings might be an understatement. I say bring on the windmills, I just don't want them to hurt my community.

[N7YA]

I say Go Nuclear !! Only problem is the words "nuclear" or "radioactive" strike intense fear in the hearts of most Americans.

When wind farms go wrong, a few birds die. When solar "goes wrong", some utility companies lose a little bit of money. When nuclear goes wrong, people die and entire areas are rendered completely useless.

We have been led to believe that solar and wind are things to fear.

[n2ize]

Nuclear didn't work out so good for Chernobyl or TMI or Fukushima.


Actually it worked out quite well in general though. Out of thousands of nuclear plants only two had any major issues. One, due to a Tsunami and the other in Russia was an outdated design and was put through testing by people who didn't know what they were doing and had little regard for safety. TMI was a joke,
the amount of radiation exposure was nominal even among those who lived right next to the plant. Virtually ALL the radiation was contained within the reactor site. Chernobyl and Fuku were worst yet damage was minimal. Even after the accident Chernobyl reactor 1 was kept operational and was staffed. Today most the major radioactivity has long since decayed. Even in the exclusion zone radiation levels are quite low, except for a few scattered hotspots... mainly buildings which stored and tested soil samples directly after the mishap.

So I would say that nuclear energy has overall an excellent track record. And with modern and far safer designs nuclear energy it too great of an energy source to be overlooked or forgotten. II think the hey to our future is going to be a combination of renewables (such as wind, solar, water, etc.) and new generation nuclear energy. The toxic gases and chemical pollution and CO2 emitted from coal, oil and gas bothers and scares me far more than radioactivity and atomic energy.

[KG4NEL]

Today most the major radioactivity has long since decayed.

I was following you right up until that point. They're not building the world's largest movable structure to contain it, for shits 'n giggles.

[WØTKX]

Umm, yea. There are ways to do nuclear power safely, but we have legacy shit out there that is a very long term mess. And we have to deal with that before (and rightly so) anybody with any sense would agree that nuclear power is the answer.

To put it another way, it's not the answer till we figure out how to be more responsible and safe.

And the best safest (thought weak, ha ha) nuclear power source we have is Sol.

But I still dream of Dyson spheres and atomic powered flying cars.

[KG4CGC]

<snip>

Combine the wind turbines with other alternative energy producers to get a 24/7 production it's all done over the world, I can't see any reason the USA can't do that.


[emphasis mine]

Because FREEDOM! MERKA! We don't want SOCIALISM!

Oh wait, nobody tell any of us we already have socialism in the form of paying taxes for services.

[NQ6U]

Because FREEDOM! MERKA! We don't want SOCIALISM!

Speak for yourself, John Charles. See sig line

[KG4CGC]

Speak for yourself, John Charles. See sig line

I'm a bit lost, OM. I haven't brained well the last half of today.

[NQ6U]

By the way, Bernie is currently trailing Hillary by only four points in New Hampshire.

[NQ6U]

I'm a bit lost, OM. I haven't brained well the last half of today.

See The Courtship of Miles Standish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Courtship_of_Miles_Standish), by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

[KG4CGC]

See The Courtship of Miles Standish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Courtship_of_Miles_Standish), by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

Seriously, I'm not processing information well at this time. Cliffs would be appreciated or you'll need to remind me to read it later.

[NQ6U]

Seriously, I'm not processing information well at this time. Cliffs would be appreciated or you'll need to remind me to read it later.

Okay, I understand.

The gist of the poem was that Miles Standish was in love with Priscilla Mullens. His roomie, John Alden, was also in love with Mullens but deferred to Standish, his elder. Standish, feeling he was unable to express his love to Mullens adequately, recruited Alden to woo her for him. While he was doing so, however, Mullens said to him “Speak for yourself, John”, meaning that he should tell her how he felt about her. He did, and they were eventually married—much to Standish's dismay.

Full text here (http://www.hwlongfellow.org/poems_poem.php?pid=186), in several chapters. It's pretty long.

[KG4CGC]

Thank you for the Cliff notes.

[KG4CGC]

By the way, Bernie is currently trailing Hillary by only four points in New Hampshire.

I like Bernie. I just think our system will not allow him to win. I could be wrong.

As for the GOP reality show drama last night, did they even cover what they would do about jobs and the economy? I know the talked about boogie men and who is more loyal to boogie man theology.


[ETA]: I should say, the disparity in the economy created for billionaires.

[W5BRM]

Okay, I understand.

The gist of the poem was that Miles Standish was in love with Priscilla Mullens. His roomie, John Alden, was also in love with Mullens but deferred to Standish, his elder. Standish, feeling he was unable to express his love to Mullens adequately, recruited Alden to woo her for him. While he was doing so, however, Mullens said to him “Speak for yourself, John”, meaning that he should tell her how he felt about her. He did, and they were eventually married—much to Standish's dismay.

Full text here (http://www.hwlongfellow.org/poems_poem.php?pid=186), in several chapters. It's pretty long.

Heh just watch the Steve Martin Daryl Hannah movie "Roxanne"

[NQ6U]

Heh just watch the Steve Martin Daryl Hannah movie "Roxanne"

Cyrano De Bergerac redone.

[n2ize]

[/COLOR]

I was following you right up until that point. They're not building the world's largest movable structure to contain it, for shits 'n giggles.


Not talking about the reactor, or should I say it's remains or the structure. I am talking about the region in proximity to the plant but outside of the facility itself.. Go in there with a Geiger counter and you'll find many areas give normal background or slightly higher readings. You will find occasional hot spots. But the counter isn't going to be sounding off like many people envision. The radiation outside the grounds isn't nearly as intense and widespread as some imagine.

[NA4BH]

Wasn't Mullen played by Faye Wrey?

[NQ6U]

Wasn't Mullen played by Faye Wrey?

No, she was played by the 18-inch tall Bruce Cabot, using stop-motion animation.

[WØTKX]

Cyrano De Bergerac redone.

Old Skool Rapper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfn1hSINA2s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfn1hSINA2s

[KG4NEL]

Not talking about the reactor, or should I say it's remains or the structure. I am talking about the region in proximity to the plant but outside of the facility itself.. Go in there with a Geiger counter and you'll find many areas give normal background or slightly higher readings. You will find occasional hot spots. But the counter isn't going to be sounding off like many people envision. The radiation outside the grounds isn't nearly as intense and widespread as some imagine.

Probably lots of space to fly drones.

[ka8ncr]

I say Go Nuclear !! Only problem is the words "nuclear" or "radioactive" strike intense fear in the hearts of most Americans.


That and not much to do with spent fuel.

[PA5COR]

Yep, and the fact that any nuclear power plant isn't so Co2 neutral as people want to believe and much more expensive as wind or solar power.

[XE1/N5AL]

...double post...

[XE1/N5AL]

Almost silent. When they turn due to wind direction changes, you might hear a low rumble.

If permanently fixed in a north-easterly direction, those windmills would take advantage of the excess hot air generated in D.C.

[K0RGR]

I went to a county supervisors meeting to listen to the discussion about a company called Apex Energy. They want to build 150 600 ft tall windmills on 22,000 acres of our county. I have no issue with wind power for electrical generation and I especially have no problem with a little more industry in this very rural county to pick up the local economy. I guess I can even get use to those monster towers with their 200 ft rotors.
1. I do wonder however, how much they will help our county in the long run.
They are leasing Weyerhauser logging land. Normally that land is open to hunting. If the windmills go up it will be closed to hunting. Our rural county does pick up a lot of tourist hunter and fishing dollars.
2. These towers will be just north of the airport, while the regular power towers are just south of the airport. I think it is going to be tough on the pilots.
3. Apex bragged about setting up windmill farms all over the US, but none of these farms resulted in the shutdown of a single coal, nuclear or natural gas plant. What gives? Is this just a technology demonstration?
4 Of course the standard Ham fears, will 150 200 ft Dia rotors rotating at 19 rpm screw up my AM, FM and shortwave listening pleasure? The farm will be about 20 miles north of me.

My first attempt to answer this bombed, so here we go again.

I don't know why they would close the area to hunting. We hunt pheasants around them up here all the time. Are they afraid that the good old boys will get loaded and use them
for target practice?

I would assume that they would have to follow FAA regulations for tower height, which ensures that they are below the glide slope to the runway.

Wind power plants here have shut down many older coal fired plants - mostly plants that needed replacement, anyway. As of 2010, wind power provided 14% of the electricity
in Minnesota, and it's closer to 20% now. We had a big coal fired plant downtown, and it's been gone for several years now - and our air quality has improved markedly. However,
the surplus heat from the boiler was used to keep a nearby lake ice free, and the geese who live there are having a harder time now. They also used the steam from the
plant to heat downtown Mayo clinic buildings, so a small gas fired boiler was installed to replace that.

Some people have claimed that the propellers cause flutter on distant VHF signals. Since those blades are made of fiberglass, I don't see how, but they must have some slight
reflective properties because when the conditions are just right, you can see the windmills on the weather radar from about 50 miles away.

The biggest gripes come from people who claim that the shadows from the moving blades bother them. For that reason, we have some large setback requirements here, usually
a mile or more. There are also a number of environmentalists who claim that they kill lots of birds, though I don't believe the kind of numbers they put up for that. I did see an
injured eagle some distance from the windmills once, but the eagle population seems to be in good shape. Eagles don't fly at night and have better eyesight than humans, but birds do fly into any tall object.

In the interests of full disclosure, my wife had a contract to put two of those things on some land she owns in Iowa, but that fell through when Congress eliminated the subsidy for them.
The income for those two windmills would have bought me a new top of the line radio every year or so, so I am indeed p.o.'d.

[KG4NEL]

Thanks Obama!

[W2NAP]

Some people have claimed that the propellers cause flutter on distant VHF signals. Since those blades are made of fiberglass, I don't see how, but they must have some slight
reflective properties because when the conditions are just right, you can see the windmills on the weather radar from about 50 miles away.


not sure about VHF signals but I do know for fact microwave does reflect off of them, weather radar picks the ones up NW of me up on radar at times (65-70 miles from radar site) quite strong reflections too.