solar cheaper as oil or gas.

[PA5COR]

Now a new report (http://www.nbad.com/content/dam/NBAD/documents/Business/FOE_Full_Report.pdf) (pdf) from the National Bank of Abu Dhabi, as you can imagine, a big player in oil & gas, says that "fossil fuels can no longer compete with solar technologies on price", and that the majority of the $US48 trillion needed to meet global energy demand over the next 20 years will come from renewables.
“Cost is no longer a reason not to proceed with renewables,” the NBAD report says. In some instances, the price of renewables are remarkably low. “The latest solar PV project tendered in Dubai returned a low bid that set a new global benchmark and is competitive with oil at US$10/barrel and gas at US$5/MMBtu.” This was a 200MW bid by ACWA Power at $US0.0584/kWh (5.84c/kwh), without subsidies. Of course, sunnier countries will have lower costs, but over time even cloudier places will see solar eclipse dirty sources.

[K7SGJ]

I don't know about other areas of the country, but Arizona power companies have put rate increases into effect that cause homeowners with solar panels to pay on average $50.00 per month that non-solar users do not pay. The reasoning is that people using solar are not paying a fair share for infrastructure. The only way around it would be to go totally off the grid, not having to use commercial power during non daylight hours, and not selling excess power back to the power companies.

I'm sure that many who have been considering powering their home with solar are having second thoughts, or are considering the added expense of battery backup for the time the solar panels are not generating, and thus going totally off grid. I'm sure that's what I would do if I were to build another place. Of course, if I could afford to do that, I would be able to afford a few hundred acres in the middle of nowhere, too. That would be my ideal dream, but I guess I don't play the lottery enough.

I wonder if in the future, as solar and alternate power options become more cost effective, small communities will begin building their own power generation/distribution systems, or neighbors will pool their power resources, cutting out the power company totally?

[PA5COR]

Here we now have test runs with large battery operated banks that during non solar energy times will provide the 230 volts 50 Hz for an area of houses.
During sunny times the battery banks are charged with the electricity delivered by the connected houses solar systems each good for 9 KW per hour, and so far it all seems to be working quite well.
With energy efficient houses the demand for electricity with this system for 20 -30 houses can be guaranteed even in winter time.
The 20 to 30 houses were chosen to keep the central battery bank and converters relative small, but ccan be made to feed more houses.

Power companies here give a good price for solar energy delivered from private houses, the company in your plac should do as well.
The electricity delivered in the grid means less transport costs through delivering electricity close by, reliefs the grid and power generators from peak electricity and preads the generating much more usefull, transport losses are mostly 7%

keeppeople from generating their own electricity and losing their monopolist situation.
Problem is it won't work for long with the even faster lowering prices of solar installations and if Tesla gets his battery factory rolling and the price drops of the batteries the monopoly is done for for the energy producers.

[K0RGR]

Sorry to hear about Arizona. I sure saw a lot of solar next door in California. I was most amazed by the big solar collectors in the desert. I still haven't seen the Ivanpah solar generators in operation - managed to get there a few days early last year, and a couple hours too late this year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_plants_in_the_Mojave_Desert
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_California I believe some newer and even larger plants have just come on line recently, and I'm aware of another solar-molten salt generator project in the desert that will supply power from solar heat around the clock - making solar much more useful as a power source.

Solar is growing very rapidly here in Minnesota. One company has started building 'neighborhood' solar generating plants, distributed through the region. I'm not sure what the status of that project is, because predictably enough, politics has become involved, and because it doesn't involve fossil fuels, it is considered evil. And, of course, we have all the local governments trying hard to find some way to extract their pound of flesh in the form of taxes. It's long been said that we will have solar when someone figures out how to make sunlight stop at a toll booth.

[n2ize]

Problem around this part of the country is you can't go completely off the grid, particularly in the winter. Case and point, my solar panels would have been covered with ice and snow for the past 6-7 weeks. That doesn't include the additional snow and sleets thats coming later this evening into tomorrow on the back of the snow and sleet we got yesterday. On top of it the energy required when the temps dip down into the single digits at night. Now maybe if the solar panels are self heating...then again, it takes up a lot of energy to melt snow and ice so that would siop up a significant amount of the power generated by the panels. I still think its a great idea though and during the spring, summer, and fall could probably get the bulk of your energy from the panels.

[n2ize]

Here we now have test runs with large battery operated banks that during non solar energy times will provide the 230 volts 50 Hz for an area of houses.
During sunny times the battery banks are charged with the electricity delivered by the connected houses solar systems each good for 9 KW per hour, and so far it all seems to be working quite well.
With energy efficient houses the demand for electricity with this system for 20 -30 houses can be guaranteed even in winter time.
The 20 to 30 houses were chosen to keep the central battery bank and converters relative small, but ccan be made to feed more houses.

Power companies here give a good price for solar energy delivered from private houses, the company in your plac should do as well.
The electricity delivered in the grid means less transport costs through delivering electricity close by, reliefs the grid and power generators from peak electricity and preads the generating much more usefull, transport losses are mostly 7%

keeppeople from generating their own electricity and losing their monopolist situation.
Problem is it won't work for long with the even faster lowering prices of solar installations and if Tesla gets his battery factory rolling and the price drops of the batteries the monopoly is done for for the energy producers.

Here in the USA it will never fly. Oil, coal, gas, runs the government and they will make sure they keep people convinced that solar energy is just some kind of left wing hippie euro-sociialist pipe dream. Even nuclear energy can;t make much headway in this country, forget about solar. And as the rest of the world moves forward energy-wise here in Murca we'll regress back to burning wood in hearths or in fire pits.

[K0RGR]

Here in the USA it will never fly. Oil, coal, gas, runs the government and they will make sure they keep people convinced that solar energy is just some kind of left wing hippie euro-sociialist pipe dream. Even nuclear energy can;t make much headway in this country, forget about solar. And as the rest of the world moves forward energy-wise here in Murca we'll regress back to burning wood in hearths or in fire pits.

The optimistic view would be that within a generation, wood will be the only fuel most people can afford, and you'll have to find it and cut it yourself. Our political division is dragging us toward that cliff a little faster every day. "Who Stole the American Dream" is a great book that will drive you nuts if you actually give a crap about 'Murica.

[kb2vxa]

After all is said and done... GET OFF MY LAWN!

[PA5COR]

In Germany E-ON the energy giant that invested heavily in traditional gas coal and nuke power announced a loss over last year of 3 billion euro's....
Other power generating companies heavily investing in wind turbines, solar and other green ways to generate power made huge profits.
THe market and people's choices will force the hand of the energy companies, if they want or not.

[kb2vxa]

That's how the Broadband over Power Lines (BPL) interference issue was settled. The market defeated it but the ARRL took all the credit... naturally. LMAO

[HUGH]

A scheme, already marketed by a British company, extracts hydrogen from water on wind-turbine sites and this is stored, or piped to elsewhere for reconversion to heat or electricity when required. No ugly, expensive cables and can be used for major solar panel sites as well.
Pipelines themselves can be included in the storage system and clean water recovered in the process.

[K0RGR]

That was actually a system that was tested for fueling hydrogen vehicles. As long as you can supply water and sunlight, the little power plant would convert the water to hydrogen and oxygen, storing the hydrogen for the next vehicle that needs refueling...

[ka4dpo]

I see the United States making good progress in alternative energy. There are hundreds of thousands of wind generators across the country and huge solar electric plants in Arizona and Nevada. It is currently not cost effective to try and run an average home on solar power alone. Solar panels are expensive and suitable storage batteries are large, expensive, and also not very efficient. It will get better, it always does and as battery technology improves there will be more and more reliance on solar power as an adjunct to current electrical utilities.

Right now in the sun belt states it is possible to put enough solar panels on the average home to generate sufficient power to run an air conditioner during most the day. This saves a lot in utility bills but given the cost of the solar panels takes a long time to amortize. As it is now Coal, Gas, and Nuclear are the only sources of power that operate day and night, rain or shine, and not dependent on wind. Our only other reliable energy sources are hydro-electric and geo-thermal.

I do see a lot of development on hydrogen fuel cells for automobiles and that is going to be a reality in the very near future. Perhaps that same technology will spin off for home use. Whatever technology leads the way it's a cinch that fossil fuels are on the way out but it is going to take time even if a new energy source was found tomorrow you can't just dump your car in the junkyard and go buy a new one. The transition will take years and will be market driven with the consumer in the drivers seat of change.

[n2ize]

I see the United States making good progress in alternative energy. There are hundreds of thousands of wind generators across the country and huge solar electric plants in Arizona and Nevada. It is currently not cost effective to try and run an average home on solar power alone. Solar panels are expensive and suitable storage batteries are large, expensive, and also not very efficient. It will get better, it always does and as battery technology improves there will be more and more reliance on solar power as an adjunct to current electrical utilities.

Right now in the sun belt states it is possible to put enough solar panels on the average home to generate sufficient power to run an air conditioner during most the day. This saves a lot in utility bills but given the cost of the solar panels takes a long time to amortize. As it is now Coal, Gas, and Nuclear are the only sources of power that operate day and night, rain or shine, and not dependent on wind. Our only other reliable energy sources are hydro-electric and geo-thermal.

I do see a lot of development on hydrogen fuel cells for automobiles and that is going to be a reality in the very near future. Perhaps that same technology will spin off for home use. Whatever technology leads the way it's a cinch that fossil fuels are on the way out but it is going to take time even if a new energy source was found tomorrow you can't just dump your car in the junkyard and go buy a new one. The transition will take years and will be market driven with the consumer in the drivers seat of change.

We already have a great source of alternative green energy. Nuclear power.

[PA5COR]

Tell that the people of Fukushima and Chernobyl and some other places.....

[kb2vxa]

"As it is now Coal, Gas, and Nuclear are the only sources of power that operate day and night, rain or shine, and not dependent on wind."

You forgot to include hydro, but the greenies in their infinite wisdom have put a stop to new construction and development of existing generators as they have done to nuclear. For what it's worth(less) the latest developments in nuclear technology have made it perfectly safe provided plants are constructed in safe locations. The irony of it all, hydro is "green electricity" but the greenies block it.

I now refer you to my sig line, Oyster Creek Nuclear was entirely unaffected by hurricane Sandy but I took the gas with me to the evacuation shelter so it wouldn't contribute to the fires a bit south of here.

[ka4dpo]

"As it is now Coal, Gas, and Nuclear are the only sources of power that operate day and night, rain or shine, and not dependent on wind."

You forgot to include hydro, but the greenies in their infinite wisdom have put a stop to new construction and development of existing generators as they have done to nuclear. For what it's worth(less) the latest developments in nuclear technology have made it perfectly safe provided plants are constructed in safe locations. The irony of it all, hydro is "green electricity" but the greenies block it.

I now refer you to my sig line, Oyster Creek Nuclear was entirely unaffected by hurricane Sandy but I took the gas with me to the evacuation shelter so it wouldn't contribute to the fires a bit south of here.

Well I actually did mention Hydro and Geo-thermal in the next sentence but I agree with you that hydro-electric is the most reliable totally green energy source we have. You would think they could figure that out.

[K0RGR]

Here's just one of many examples from MINNESOTA - http://mnrenewables.org/node/1571

Now, if your alternative energy system works here in the frozen tundra, where sunlight is restricted much of the year, it should work about anywhere. That house claims to be 100% solar powered electric, and I know at least two people close by here who make the same claim. One has solar electricity and uses a heat exchanger system to heat and cool his house at a fraction of what it costs the rest of us.

Here's another one from even deeper in the frozen north - http://mnrenewables.org/node/1591 I like their statement that payback was '23 seconds' because it would have cost three times as much to get electricity hooked up there.

I think there's more afoot here than the basic ROI calculation. Independence is worth something, too. Not having to worry about the power lines going down would be nice, even here in a suburban setting. And now, I think the ROI is looking better all the time. The cost of PV panels has plummeted.

[PA5COR]

I can answer that quick.

Alaska gets the same amount of sunshine as Germany, and Germany is leading the world in solar energy making.

https://joinmosaic.com/blog/keys-responsible-investing/


https://mosaic-blog.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/location-suitability.jpg

[PA5COR]

The typical citizen initially may have difficulty putting Fairbanks’ solar irradiation level of 3.4 kWh/m2/day into perspective. For comparison, in Germany, where there are more installed solar panels per capita than anywhere else in the world, the level averages only 3.0 kWh/m2/day. The United States is blessed with much better irradiation, as the annual amount is linked more closely to weather patterns than geographic latitude.

At similar latitudes, sunny Phoenix receives 6.6, but Atlanta only 4.8. Seattle gets 3.3, but Bismarck, North Dakota scores 4.7. In Alaska, clearer weather accounts for Fairbanks at 3.4 beating Anchorage at 3.1. Bethel, at 3.8, outshines most of the state, while Juneau, with the most southernly location but persistent clouds, averages only 2.6. (All of this data is from the US Department of Energy (http://energy.gov/maps/solar-energy-potential)). As you can see, solar potential is location specific, but most of Alaska receives enough irradiation for solar to be a viable energy source; even more so than in world-leading Germany.

[kb2vxa]

"I agree with you that hydro-electric is the most reliable totally green energy source we have. You would think they could figure that out."
They could if each had one working brain cell, they could network them into one working brain. Their reason is even dumber, preserving the "natural beauty" of free flowing rivers and get this, preserving fish that can only survive in them. WTF? Lakes have beauty natural or man-made AND those very same fish do quite well in lakes! The topper of them all came when they blocked hydro in India to preserve the culture of poor people living in squalor without electricity. SINCE WHEN IS EXTREME POVERTY A CULTURE??? Save yourself the pondering, never try to make sense out of nonsense.

I wish I could remember an article I read so I could link to it, an interesting and very unusual read. There's a solar generating plant in an Alaskan town with solar powered houses that feed excess back to it, the unusual part is how energy is stored at the plant and feeds the houses when the sun doesn't shine. It's an enormous building filling capacitor bank! There are very good reasons behind it, storage at a higher voltage simplifying the system and far less expensive than a battery bank with the high cost of batteries and associated maintenance. Transmission both ways is standard 27KV phase to phase AC using inverters, transformers and rectifiers.

It's an interesting twist on long haul HV transmission lines using up to 1.5MV DC far more efficient than AC. This is because with AC parallel inductance causes loss, each phase is 120 degrees out of phase with the others and out of phase currents buck each other. When out of phase currents are induced in the other lines you have loss so at intervals down the line phases are switched around with relation to each other on the towers. With DC of course there are no induced currents so the switcheroo isn't necessary and losses are greatly reduced. As an aside, one day while fishing along the Black River in North Jersey I experienced parallel inductance first hand with a surprising result. The power company built a wooden suspension bridge using steel cables along the right of way under high tension lines with the suspension anchored in wooden poles separately from the guys. When I climbed up to fish from it with one hand on a guy and the other on a suspension I got one hell of a shock and landed on my back on the ground. I dug some stuff out of the trunk of my car (all sorts of unusual things in it) and found the bridge had enough juice to light a 25W bulb! Battery booster cables grounded the bridge, problem solved. One problem at least, I didn't catch a single fish, not even a bite all day.

[HUGH]

"I agree with you that hydro-electric is the most reliable totally green energy source we have. You would think they could figure that out."
They could if each had one working brain cell, they could network them into one working brain. Their reason is even dumber, preserving the "natural beauty" of free flowing rivers and get this, preserving fish that can only survive in them. WTF? Lakes have beauty natural or man-made AND those very same fish do quite well in lakes! The topper of them all came when they blocked hydro in India to preserve the culture of poor people living in squalor without electricity. SINCE WHEN IS EXTREME POVERTY A CULTURE??? Save yourself the pondering, never try to make sense out of nonsense.

I wish I could remember an article I read so I could link to it, an interesting and very unusual read. There's a solar generating plant in an Alaskan town with solar powered houses that feed excess back to it, the unusual part is how energy is stored at the plant and feeds the houses when the sun doesn't shine. It's an enormous building filling capacitor bank! There are very good reasons behind it, storage at a higher voltage simplifying the system and far less expensive than a battery bank with the high cost of batteries and associated maintenance. Transmission both ways is standard 27KV phase to phase AC using inverters, transformers and rectifiers.

It's an interesting twist on long haul HV transmission lines using up to 1.5MV DC far more efficient than AC. This is because with AC parallel inductance causes loss, each phase is 120 degrees out of phase with the others and out of phase currents buck each other. When out of phase currents are induced in the other lines you have loss so at intervals down the line phases are switched around with relation to each other on the towers. With DC of course there are no induced currents so the switcheroo isn't necessary and losses are greatly reduced. As an aside, one day while fishing along the Black River in North Jersey I experienced parallel inductance first hand with a surprising result. The power company built a wooden suspension bridge using steel cables along the right of way under high tension lines with the suspension anchored in wooden poles separately from the guys. When I climbed up to fish from it with one hand on a guy and the other on a suspension I got one hell of a shock and landed on my back on the ground. I dug some stuff out of the trunk of my car (all sorts of unusual things in it) and found the bridge had enough juice to light a 25W bulb! Battery booster cables grounded the bridge, problem solved. One problem at least, I didn't catch a single fish, not even a bite all day.

The power cable linking England to France operates with DC to underline your statement, it was originally stated that AC would affect ships' magnetic compasses but I think the losses are more to do with it.

As for hydro, I found that the coastline in Britain is very long for the area of land ('tis only a small island!) and many sea-power schemes can assist in preserving marine wildlife. Greenies rarely get my support because they're not green at all.

[KC2UGV]

Tell that the people of Fukushima and Chernobyl and some other places.....

I'll let the people know living next to this, that Solar is totes safe, and zero impact:
http://www.eb-connections.com/img_gallery/Mining,%20Tunnelling,%20Quarrying/types%20of%20mines/Strip-mining.jpg

[NQ6U]

The comparison between Alaska and Germany is misleading. The total area of Germany is 137,847 sq. mi. (357,022 sq. km.). The area of Alaska is 663,267 sq. mi. (1,717,854 sq. km.), or about 4.8 times that of Germany. That means if Germany, with it's much smaller area, receives the same amount of sunlight, it's 4.8 times as intense as that of Alaska's.

I'm in favor or more use of solar power but let's keep things in perspective.

[PA5COR]

Do have a look again at the picture, they compare sunlight power per square meter which is absolutely comparable.

[NQ6U]

Do have a look again at the picture, they compare sunlight power per square meter which is absolutely comparable.

Okay, but I find those numbers suspect and would like to know how they calculated them. Alaska is much farther north than Germany—so much farther north that much of it sees almost no sunlight for half the year.

[PA5COR]

Since the Netherlands is next to Germany at 53 degrees our winters have short days as well.
Still solar panels sell like hot cakes here wit the current low prices, mostly 9 KW/H installations.

At similar latitudes, sunny Phoenix receives 6.6, but Atlanta only 4.8. Seattle gets 3.3, but Bismarck, North Dakota scores 4.7. In Alaska, clearer weather accounts for Fairbanks at 3.4 beating Anchorage at 3.1. Bethel, at 3.8, outshines most of the state, while Juneau, with the most southernly location but persistent clouds, averages only 2.6. (All of this data is from the US Department of Energy (http://energy.gov/maps/solar-energy-potential)). As you can see, solar potential is location specific, but most of Alaska receives enough irradiation for solar to be a viable energy source; even more so than in world-leading Germany.

THe data is from USGS your own government.
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html

[KC2UGV]

Since the Netherlands is next to Germany at 53 degrees our winters have short days as well.

We're not talking "short days", we're talking 6 month long nights...

[PA5COR]

Have a go at your Department of Energy then, they provide the data.
Average daytine in winter is quite short here as well, daylight from 09.00 till 16.00 at best in December,

[KC2UGV]

Have a go at your Department of Energy then, they provide the data.
Average daytine in winter is quite short here as well, daylight from 09.00 till 16.00 at best in December,

Le sigh. There are parts of Alaska where it's twilight for 4 months of the year, and total dark for 2 months...
http://www.absak.com/library/average-annual-insolation-alaska

For example, in Barrow, AL, there's 0 hours of daylight in December and January.

[PA5COR]

Happens in a big state, the rest of the state seems to get enough, on average even more as Germany.

[KC2UGV]

Happens in a big state, the rest of the state seems to get enough, on average even more as Germany.

smh...

[kb2vxa]

Are we fighting WW2 again?

[ka4dpo]

Have a go at your Department of Energy then, they provide the data.
Average daytine in winter is quite short here as well, daylight from 09.00 till 16.00 at best in December,

I don't think the DOE can change the amount of sunlight in Alaska. From November through April most of Alaska gets about four hours of light per day and that is only the equivalent of twilight. Solar is well suited to many places in the US but AK is not one of them except in the summer months when it is light for 18 hours a day.

[K0RGR]

Yes, solar would not be useful at the higher latitudes in the winter. But in summer, when daylight is essentially continuous, it could supply all kinds of power.

However, the viability of solar in northern Europe, which is at a higher latitude than most of the 'lower 48' should make it seem more feasible.

I haven't seen what they do here with snow and ice on the panels. In the winter, the panels should be at a pretty steep angle, anyway, because the sun doesn't rise that far above the horizon. I also wonder if low temperatures come into play, with reduced panel output. In any case, there are off the grid buildings here that are solar powered.

[kb2vxa]

Around here they're flat against a sloping roof on the south and/or west side and get buried in snow. A friend in NSW, Australia couldn't afford the high cost of solar panels at the time so he opted for a solar hot water system taking the very expensive electric water heater off line. Unfortunately I don't produce enough gas to supply this place with heat and hot water and since BS isn't electricity we just have to rely on JCP&L.

[N1LAF]

I'll let the people know living next to this, that Solar is totes safe, and zero impact:
http://www.eb-connections.com/img_gallery/Mining,%20Tunnelling,%20Quarrying/types%20of%20mines/Strip-mining.jpg

Except for the birds...

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/streamers-birds-fried-midair-solar-plant-feds-say-n183336

'Streamers': Birds Fried in Midair by Solar Plant, Feds Say

[n2ize]

Have a go at your Department of Energy then, they provide the data.
Average daytine in winter is quite short here as well, daylight from 09.00 till 16.00 at best in December,

Tell that to my friend who lives in Northern Alaska. 2.5 months of night evey winter, not to mention 4-5 months of dusk. Solar panels would be useless there most of the year.

[PA5COR]

How about the friends in southern Alaska? ;)

[n2ize]

How about the friends in southern Alaska? ;)

I have no friends in southern Alaska.

[K7SGJ]

I have no friends in southern Alaska.


You don't have any friends anywhere.........:stickpoke:

[PA5COR]

^That won't buff out easy.....;)

[K7SGJ]

Ah hell, I'll be his friend. We can bond by flying our drones together. In fact, if John can be in Phoenix around noon tomorrow, with a few fully charged batteries, we can follow the pres around with the drones. I'm sure the SS troops won't care, much. Besides, what can they do to us? We're hams for Christ sake.

[PA5COR]

Most SS peps are drunk anyway....;)

[NQ6U]

Most SS peps are drunk anyway....;)

Except the ones who are procuring the hookers.

[n2ize]

You don't have any friends anywhere.........:stickpoke:

I probably don't have any real friends left except for one now. The others are dead. All others are acquaintances. Time marches on and leaves fewer and fewer in it's wake.

[n2ize]

Ah hell, I'll be his friend. We can bond by flying our drones together..

Drones are Ghetto these days. These days drones are the urban man's way of entering the rc hobby. Big droones, small drones, nano-drones, etcc... they fly em all in the hood.