What Will They Think of Next

[ka4dpo]

Wanted to share this.

I just read an interesting article about using LASER (http://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/automotive-electronics-2/laser-ignition-promises-fuel-efficiency-2015-02/) ignition systems instead of spark in IC engines. The article claims significant gains in fuel efficiency and power. Ford Motor Company has teamed up with the university of Liverpool to develop some prototype systems. Another benefit of these ignition systems is less pollution out the tail pipe due to a cleaner, more efficient burn. It makes sense and looks like only a matter of time before these start showing up in production vehicles.

One other interesting use is in large ocean going ships. Even though they use diesel engines the LASER can be fired in the cylinder to improve combustion and reduce pollution. LASER ignition is already being used in certain jet aircraft engines and is catching on fast.

[K0RGR]

It will be interesting to see if this has an impact on 'shade tree' mechanics down the line. In order to be effective, I suspect there would be a number of fairly dangerous technologies involved.

[ka4dpo]

Other than the laser beam itself I'm not sure what you mean by a number of dangerous technologies? The laser plugs will be controlled by the engine computer same as spark plugs are now so what other dangerous technologies are we talking about here? No high voltages and no coils or distributors, although new cars don't really have distributors.

[KG4CGC]

Weren't we supposed to have a Mr. Fusion machine by now?

[NA4BH]

Weren't we supposed to have a Mr. Fusion machine by now?

Instead you got this

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zrbjaIW4HZE/TDkhAzAp8pI/AAAAAAAAAew/PJuJUidVWsI/s1600/mrbubble.jpg

[kb2vxa]

Here's a question for you; what will they think of next to make engines more complicated and EXPENSIVE?

[NQ6U]

Here's a question for you; what will they think of next to make engines more complicated and EXPENSIVE?

And, yet, more reliable than ever, you mean?

[K7SGJ]

I was always partial to the one lung hit and miss engine. It's operation kind of explains my life.

[KG4CGC]

Instead you got this

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zrbjaIW4HZE/TDkhAzAp8pI/AAAAAAAAAew/PJuJUidVWsI/s1600/mrbubble.jpg

Yeah. Naked Me Elmo.

[KG4NEL]

Here's a question for you; what will they think of next to make engines more complicated and EXPENSIVE?

In terms of ease of use, I'd rather do a coil pack change over plugs and a distributor any day.

Cost-wise, the coils are significantly more, although if I was actually changing plugs, rotors and wires in their recommended intervals the difference would be less. You can run the piss out of an ignition coil before you even have to think about replacing one.

[suddenseer]

I will go buy one when the diesel version comes out. :snicker:

[kb2vxa]

"You can run the piss out of an ignition coil before you even have to think about replacing one."

They were filled with transformer oil, now it's piss.

[KG4NEL]

Based on the cracked ones I pulled out of my folks' Volvo, potting compound is more like it :mrgreen:

That I5 ran a lot better when it wasn't running on three and a half cylinders...hoo gnu.

[n2ize]

Based on the cracked ones I pulled out of my folks' Volvo, potting compound is more like it :mrgreen:

That I5 ran a lot better when it wasn't running on three and a half cylinders...hoo gnu.

Potting compound... more like PCB paste.

[K7SGJ]

I will go buy one when the diesel version comes out. :snicker:

The diesel versions have a special VIN, it's called a Vin Diesel.

[KG4CGC]

groan >-<

[N2CHX]

That's pretty cool. Got a linky to the article? I'm curious about how it makes engines more efficient. Also wondering how it works exactly. I'm picturing a laser beam pointed at the top of a cylinder, creating intense heat that ignites the fuel but eventually burns a hole through the top of the cylinder.

[KG4CGC]

That's pretty cool. Got a linky to the article? I'm curious about how it makes engines more efficient. Also wondering how it works exactly. I'm picturing a laser beam pointed at the top of a cylinder, creating intense heat that ignites the fuel but eventually burns a hole through the top of the cylinder.

This is exactly the problem I had when trying this on the Ruckus. We are still decades away from creating a laser that can be manipulated to project a beam at a specific temperature to a specified distance, like an inch or less and still maintain the desired, optimal combustion.

[KG4CGC]

To add, we're probably closer to a motor that can turn a shaft attached to a turbine that can manipulate the blades by moving atoms.

[ka4dpo]

That's pretty cool. Got a linky to the article? I'm curious about how it makes engines more efficient. Also wondering how it works exactly. I'm picturing a laser beam pointed at the top of a cylinder, creating intense heat that ignites the fuel but eventually burns a hole through the top of the cylinder.

The link is in the initial post and it is pretty interesting. I though about burning holes in pistons and cylinder wall also but they claim to have that all figured out and have been running a test engine with this system in in it continuously for quite a while now.

[n2ize]

That's pretty cool. Got a linky to the article? I'm curious about how it makes engines more efficient. Also wondering how it works exactly. I'm picturing a laser beam pointed at the top of a cylinder, creating intense heat that ignites the fuel but eventually burns a hole through the top of the cylinder.

Think of it like this. A laser is a device that produces coherent light at a specific wavelength. That light can then be collimated via lenses and then focused onto a specific point. An object that adsorbs the energy places at that point of focus will become hot. Depending on the power of the laser the object may become extremely hot and/or ignite. Yet other objects closer to o further from the point of focus won't burn at all. Likewise materials that reflect most of the lasers light will also not be affected. It all depends on the lasers wavelength, power, and optical properties. So, the issue of the laser igniting the fuel yet not burning holes through the engine is one that is quite readily solved.

Think of laser surgery. A tiny powerful focused laser beam can inflict a response on a tiny blood vessel or nerve ending yet leave all surrounding tissue untouched.

[kb2vxa]

FB on the science lesson, so let's hear how you solved the issue of igniting a mixture of colorless gasses with a beam of light that goes right through it.

[n2ize]

FB on the science lesson, so let's hear how you solved the issue of igniting a mixture of colorless gasses with a beam of light that goes right through it.

You don't have to ignite the gas directly. You aim and focus the laser bean onto a material that adsorbs the energy of the beam and becomes red or white hot which in turn ignites the gasoline vapours.

[kb2vxa]

What do you get when you cross an owl with a Linux kernel? Hoo gnu.

OK, what do you aim it at? I'm trying to invent an ignition system that doesn't use Barney Google's horse and need a little help. The Islanders are waiting with baited breath and sorely in need of mouthwash.

[w6tmi]

Other than the laser beam itself I'm not sure what you mean by a number of dangerous technologies? The laser plugs will be controlled by the engine computer same as spark plugs are now so what other dangerous technologies are we talking about here? No high voltages and no coils or distributors, although new cars don't really have distributors.

Like the folks taking the blu (laser) out of the blu ray and having a watt laser "pointer", might be the reference here.

[NA4BH]

What are vapours? Another Canadian conspiracy? Why don't they leave us alone?

[n2ize]

What do you get when you cross an owl with a Linux kernel? Hoo gnu.

OK, what do you aim it at? I'm trying to invent an ignition system that doesn't use Barney Google's horse and need a little help. The Islanders are waiting with baited breath and sorely in need of mouthwash.

I already said, it depends on the power, wavelength and optical properties of your laser. Basically you would focus it at a substance that adsorbs energy at the given wavelength and becomes hot enough to ignite a mixture of air and gasoline. In the case of a 1 watt near UV 405nm laser a piece of your skin would do fine as the ignition point . :lol:

[NA4BH]

Would it work at absolute zero?

[n2ize]

Would it work at absolute zero?

Theoretically no.

[ka4dpo]

What are vapours? Another Canadian conspiracy? Why don't they leave us alone?

That's what Victorian women got when they fainted. Probably Canadians....

[KG4CGC]

Theoretically no.

Light is not affected by absolute zero except in theory and even there we still have no honest idea of the outcome.
Absolute Gravity on the other hand ...

[KG4CGC]

That's what Victorian women got when they fainted. Probably Canadians....

Aren't they supposed to sniff farts to alleviate that issue?

[NA4BH]

That's what Victorian women got when they fainted. Probably Canadians....

I knew it

[NA4BH]

Light is not affected by absolute zero except in theory and even there we still have no honest idea of the outcome.
Absolute Gravity on the other hand ...

Absolute gravity? Have you tried the Trappist beers? Talk about absolute gravity

[n2ize]

That's what Victorian women got when they fainted. Probably Canadians....

Victorian women took Laudanum and small doses of arsenic to appear frail, pallid and weak. Just imagine, in the Victorian era it was considered chic for young women to be strung out on dope.

[ka4dpo]

Victorian women took Laudanum and small doses of arsenic to appear frail, pallid and weak. Just imagine, in the Victorian era it was considered chic for young women to be strung out on dope.

So kind of like East LA.

[kb2vxa]

OK, what do you aim it at?
"I already said, it depends on..."

Yeah, you danced all around the question and didn't answer it until you came up with a snarky remark.
"In the case of a 1 watt near UV 405nm laser a piece of your skin would do fine as the ignition point ."
It won't ignite skin but it burns hair off, it's called No No and now a whole bunch of copycats. Will you ever give a proper answer to a proper question?
No No.
Now go look for your wings, but if all else fails there's always Red Bull... mostly bull. (;->)

Now cummon you guys stop picking on the Canuckians. You know they have harsh winters and frozen brains (some frozen asses) so wait for spring thaw to see what sort of lame excuses they give next.

[K4PIH]

Wait till some terrorist turns his V8 turbo vette into an 8 cylinder laser beam of death mobile! Sharks with frikkin lasers my ass!

[n2ize]

OK, what do you aim it at?
"I already said, it depends on..."

Yeah, you danced all around the question and didn't answer it until you came up with a snarky remark.


Another possible way is to use a laser with an peak output of >50 mJoules and use it to ionize the gas/air mixture in the cylinder without having to worry about indirect heating. The laser would be pulsed Q-switched and would only required to deliver a peak output of a few nanoseconds at most. It sounds to me like that is what they are suggesting in the article. The idea being to provide a more complete and thorough ignition and combustion of the fuel in the cylinder during any given cycle. Whether the laser itself would also ignite the ionized column in the gas or whether that would be accomplished by a secondary source I have no idea. I'll leave that to those who are actively developing this. This idea though would make sense if your goal was more complete combustion. Then again, perhaps it would make more sense to just develop a reliable, affordable, and efficient all electric car. In the mean time old fashioned spark plugs work fine.

[KG4NEL]

The diesel versions have a special VIN, it's called a Vin Diesel.

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/575675/1055071.jpg

[ka4dpo]

Another possible way is to use a laser with an peak output of >50 mJoules and use it to ionize the gas/air mixture in the cylinder without having to worry about indirect heating. The laser would be pulsed Q-switched and would only required to deliver a peak output of a few nanoseconds at most. It sounds to me like that is what they are suggesting in the article. The idea being to provide a more complete and thorough ignition and combustion of the fuel in the cylinder during any given cycle. Whether the laser itself would also ignite the ionized column in the gas or whether that would be accomplished by a secondary source I have no idea. I'll leave that to those who are actively developing this. This idea though would make sense if your goal was more complete combustion. Then again, perhaps it would make more sense to just develop a reliable, affordable, and efficient all electric car. In the mean time old fashioned spark plugs work fine.

Electric car development is in high gear but you know as well as anyone that internal combustion engines aren't going anywhere in near future. That being said, anything that can increase fuel economy and more important, reduce emissions is a worthwhile endeavor. Unless of course you like smogg..

[K7SGJ]

I always thought it would be nice if a drop in, hydrogen cell or nuclear powered engine could be cost effectively manufactured for any car ever made. But then, I also always thought it would nice if Amy Adams would go out with me, too.

[kd6nig]

I'm just wondering how they protect the actual laser itself from the heat and everything in that particular area of the engine.

In order for the beam to get into the cylinder, the whole assembly is going to have to be able to stand the heat as well as the pressures involved when the ignition happens without firing the assembly out of the top of the cylinder.

I'm guessing this has all been thought of....I just wonder if its a screw in component like the spark plug today or if they are doing something else?

[KG4NEL]

I always thought it would be nice if a drop in, hydrogen cell or nuclear powered engine could be cost effectively manufactured for any car ever made. But then, I also always thought it would nice if Amy Adams would go out with me, too.

The Fighter was playing at my gym the last time I was in there. I'd prefer Lauren Graham between the two, but still, giggity.

[kb2vxa]

"Unless of course you like smogg."
Some like smog, some don't. It all depends on whether you live in Tokyo or Los Angeles.

"I just wonder if its a screw in component like the spark plug today or if they are doing something else?"
Laser plugs? I would think something else like an assembly to replace the coil and distributor with fiber optic cables to replace the wires and spark plugs. I'm still wondering what our resident scientist will fire the laser beam at.

[n2ize]

"Unless of course you like smogg."
Some like smog, some don't. It all depends on whether you live in Tokyo or Los Angeles.

"I just wonder if its a screw in component like the spark plug today or if they are doing something else?"
Laser plugs? I would think something else like an assembly to replace the coil and distributor with fiber optic cables to replace the wires and spark plugs. I'm still wondering what our resident scientist will fire the laser beam at.

No need to fire it at anything in particular, Just fire it into the gas/air mixture in the cylinder. If the laser is powerful enough it will ionize the air/gas mix in the cylinder to create a laser induced plasma column. It would be possible if a pulsed Q-Switched laser is used since the high energy pulse would only have to last for a few nanoseconds, so, with a Q-Switched laser a high energy pulse would be feasible in delivering a nanosecond burst of high energy even though the average power of the laser is itself not that high. This could potentially cause a more complete combustion of the air/gas mix in the cylinder thus delivering more power per cycle.

Here is a basic primer on Q Switching and why it would be desirable in this kind of application.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-switching

The underlying idea would be something along these lines however on a smaller scale and contained within the engines combustion cylinder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolaser