Boeing 787 Dreamliner not safe?

[PA5COR]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...-airplane-safe (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/13/1329567/-Al-Jazeera-blows-the-lid-off-the-Boeing-787-is-this-airplane-safe)

Not surprising after all call backs of fires on board and other problems:

A selection of quotes from the Al-Jazeera piece below:


"I feel that that legacy and that history and that competence has been hijacked by a bunch of corporate thugs."
-- Former Boeing employee Kevin Sanders

"With all the problems reported on the 787, there's 90% that's getting swept away, hushed up. It's an iceberg." -- anonymous Boeing Charleston factory worker.

"The people that actually work on it are the biggest problem. There is an uneducated, underskilled, and uncaring staff that are building these planes. And I'm not the only one that feels that way." -- anonymous Boeing Charleston factory worker.

"I think Everett (Washington) will do what's right to make the plane right. Because of the union, they have to. Here (Charleston), everybody is being pushed to meet this f****ng schedule, regardless of quality." -- anonymous Boeing Charleston factory worker.

"There's no doubt there's bad repairs going out the door on the 787 aircraft. I am worried that sooner or later there's going to be a structural failure on a fuselage."
John Woods, former Boeing composites engineer, fired for pushing too hard on safety.
The whole thing is 48 minutes long, and it's well worth your time. The must-see centerpiece is a series of hidden-camera conversations with workers at Charleston, griping about the shoddy practices in their own plant, and candidly telling a fellow employee that they would never fly on a 787. All I can add is, that when the people on the factory floor who actually build a product think it's a pile of crap, chances are they're right.

Follow the linky for the AL Jazeera Video

[N2CHX]

I seem to remember saying back when the whole battery thing came to light, that the 787 was a disaster and to stick a fork in it.

[N2NH]

People don't realize that this isn't really a new problem. When it first came out, the 747 had teething problems too. This does seem to be a bigger problem though. Could moving the factory have made that much of a difference?

[NQ6U]

People don't realize that this isn't really a new problem. When it first came out, the 747 had teething problems too.

So does the Airbus A380. So did the Airbus A320. All of these airliners are very complex aircraft, some problems are to be expected.

[N2CHX]

So does the Airbus A380. So did the Airbus A320. All of these airliners are very complex aircraft, some problems are to be expected.

This sounds like much more than a few growing pains.

[n2ize]

People don't realize that this isn't really a new problem. When it first came out, the 747 had teething problems too. This does seem to be a bigger problem though. Could moving the factory have made that much of a difference?

Yet the 747 turned out to be a workhorse, safe, and reliable.

[n2ize]

So does the Airbus A380. So did the Airbus A320. All of these airliners are very complex aircraft, some problems are to be expected.

True, and things like this have happened in the past. In the old days the Lockheed Constellation was very reliable, safe and held public confidence. while the Lockheed Electra (L188) was problematic, required redesign work, and suffered a few fatal crashes and structural issues and lost public confidence. Today's passenger aircraft are far more complex in overall design both structurally, electronically, digitally, etc.

[KG4CGC]

Built by unskilled workers chosen from a "job fare" which looks for people that they believe will excel at manual labor and not much more.
I've been to these "job fares." The less likely you appear to think beyond your name, address and ability to form a sentence, coherent or not, the more likely you are to get hired on. They're not looking for people who will put their personal and family lives above that of reporting to work whenever they tell you to and doing what you are told without thinking it out.
SC is the perfect environment where your boss and the company are seen as gods.

[N2NH]

Built by unskilled workers chosen from a "job fare" which looks for people that they believe will excel at manual labor and not much more.
I've been to these "job fares." The less likely you appear to think beyond your name, address and ability to form a sentence, coherent or not, the more likely you are to get hired on. They're not looking for people who will put their personal and family lives above that of reporting to work whenever they tell you to and doing what you are told without thinking it out.
SC is the perfect environment where your boss and the company are seen as gods.

That's sort of what I figured. That might make these 'teething pains' much more serious for the 787 than it has for other new aircraft. Time will tell if the Dreamliner turns out to be a nightmare.

[kb2vxa]

You're all missing the most important point of it all STARING YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE.

>>>Charleston is one of two final assembly plants for the 787; the other is in Everett, Washington. Charleston is the non-unionized one.<<<

UNION PROPAGANDA!

[KG4CGC]

UNION PROPAGANDA!
So?

[ad4mg]

You're all missing the most important point of it all STARING YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE.

>>>Charleston is one of two final assembly plants for the 787; the other is in Everett, Washington. Charleston is the non-unionized one.<<<

UNION PROPAGANDA!

I thought that was obvious (which plant was union, and which was open shop). Does not deter from the facts, however. Employees on the front line expressing serious safety concerns is indicative of serious problems. Either the workforce is skilled enough to do the job, or they aren't. Training is key for most union operations, and good training results in superior craftsmanship.

Dragging out the old 'union=bad' screeching is a sign of a piss weak argument. Either the morons in SC can build aircraft properly, or they can't. The west coast facility seems capable. Time will tell, I just hope nobody gets killed at that plant, or worse, in the aircraft they produce with cheap labor.

[N2CHX]

You're all missing the most important point of it all STARING YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE.

>>>Charleston is one of two final assembly plants for the 787; the other is in Everett, Washington. Charleston is the non-unionized one.<<<

UNION PROPAGANDA!

I didn't miss it.

[kb2vxa]

"Training is key for most union operations, and good training results in superior craftsmanship."

The driving force behind union propaganda, apprenticeship is training for Craftsman, and experience plus further training is for Master Craftsman. There is no such thing as a Craftsman outside the union, only workers. Is propaganda always lies? Anyone who thinks it's always lies needs to listen to Radio Havana Cuba.

[KG4CGC]

"Training is key for most union operations, and good training results in superior craftsmanship."

The driving force behind union propaganda, apprenticeship is training for Craftsman, and experience plus further training is for Master Craftsman. There is no such thing as a Craftsman outside the union, only workers. Is propaganda always lies? Anyone who thinks it's always lies needs to listen to Radio Havana Cuba.

Let's not stress over what the definition of "is" is.

[N2NH]

http://youtu.be/pq1SZrZbRMA

[n2ize]

I thought that was obvious (which plant was union, and which was open shop). Does not deter from the facts, however. Employees on the front line expressing serious safety concerns is indicative of serious problems. Either the workforce is skilled enough to do the job, or they aren't. Training is key for most union operations, and good training results in superior craftsmanship.

Dragging out the old 'union=bad' screeching is a sign of a piss weak argument. Either the morons in SC can build aircraft properly, or they can't. The west coast facility seems capable. Time will tell, I just hope nobody gets killed at that plant, or worse, in the aircraft they produce with cheap labor.

A product can still be built properly but designed poorly. The builder just builds it to spec. But what if the specs are flawed ? That's why I brought up the issue with the Electra L188. It was built properly to spec but there were design flaws. Unfortunately by the time the redesign work was done and the aircraft fixed a couple of well publicized crashes destroyed public confidence in the plane. people didn't want to ride it. Same has been true of many cars. Built to spec. but bad design.

[W7XF]

Ya sure Boeing isn't a division of GM?? :lol:

[KG4CGC]

A product can still be built properly but designed poorly. The builder just builds it to spec. But what if the specs are flawed ? That's why I brought up the issue with the Electra L188. It was built properly to spec but there were design flaws. Unfortunately by the time the redesign work was done and the aircraft fixed a couple of well publicized crashes destroyed public confidence in the plane. people didn't want to ride it. Same has been true of many cars. Built to spec. but bad design.

I've been involved in many a situation where a product wasn't up to spec but NUMBERS HAD to be MET! So it was shipped. In the case of kayaks, I've seen kayaks hanging in the store, the retail shop, that would have cut you if you tried to get in one. I've seen boats go out the door that I TOLD the Q/A people would sink as soon as they hit the water. They said, "So?"
I looked them all straight in their eyes and told them that the blood of that drowning victim would be on their hands and walked the hell out.

[n2ize]

I've been involved in many a situation where a product wasn't up to spec but NUMBERS HAD to be MET! So it was shipped. In the case of kayaks, I've seen kayaks hanging in the store, the retail shop, that would have cut you if you tried to get in one. I've seen boats go out the door that I TOLD the Q/A people would sink as soon as they hit the water. They said, "So?"
I looked them all straight in their eyes and told them that the blood of that drowning victim would be on their hands and walked the hell out.

Yep. And what you describe happens all too often in many industries.

[kb2vxa]

"Same has been true of many cars. Built to spec. but bad design."

The Ford Pinto instantly comes to mind.

"...the blood of that drowning victim would be on their hands and walked the hell out."

...the blood of those astronauts would be on their hands and walked the hell out.
Morton Thiokol