Ever Sand Your Valve Shims?

[KG4CGC]

So yesterday my Ruckus started making valve noise. Kind of like not closing all the way. Just a rhythmic rattle. I pop open the valve cover and see that I have no valve clearance on both the intake and exhaust. If I take it to the dealer it will be $75 ... OR ... I can sand them and measure them as I go with some calipers.

Anyone here ever sand their shims?

[NQ6U]

What is that, one of them Southern sayings: "Well, sand my shims!"?

Seriously, back when I was still doing that sort of thing, I'd just buy the correct shim stock. Back then it was pretty cheap, but it's been many years.

[KG4CGC]

What is that, one of them Southern sayings: "Well, sand my shims!"?

Seriously, back when I was still doing that sort of thing, I'd just buy the correct shim stock. Back then it was pretty cheap, but it's been many years.

A box of assorted valve shims is about $65 to $90. It is a hard metal disk about 7.48mm in diameter and up to 3mm thick to 1.2mm thick. It fits on top of the valve stem in a seat or holder and is used instead of a screw bolt and nut adjustment.

[K7SGJ]

I just turn the radio up louder.

[N2NH]

I just turn the radio up louder.

Works for me. When my car used to knock, I'd do just that.

[KG4CGC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSm_AlYEGvY

[w2amr]

So yesterday my Ruckus started making valve noise. Kind of like not closing all the way. Just a rhythmic rattle. I pop open the valve cover and see that I have no valve clearance on both the intake and exhaust. If I take it to the dealer it will be $75 ... OR ... I can sand them and measure them as I go with some calipers.

Anyone here ever sand their shims?
Make sure you are off the lobe of the cam when you check the clearance. Sounds like you may have a broken valve spring or a bad lifter. 10-4?

[KG4CGC]

Make sure you are off the lobe of the cam when you check the clearance. Sounds like you may have a broken valve spring or a bad lifter. 10-4?

TDC. 10-4.

[KG4CGC]

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2007/NPS50+A/CAMSHAFT+%2B+VALVE/parts.html

[w2amr]

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2007/NPS50+A/CAMSHAFT+%2B+VALVE/parts.html
Ok, so the shim also acts like a solid lifter, and 1/2 of the rocker rides on the lobe of the cam. Interesting design. Like I said Charles, make sure that when you are checking the lash/clearance , you're completely off the lobe of the cam.

[N2CHX]

I'd hesitate to sand anything on a motor that worked fine before but suddenly started acting up. On the Ninja 250, valve clearance adjustment is done by an alan key and they recommend it at 20k miles. I did mine last fall.

Anyway, yeah... I would think there's something else going on and sanding the valves would just be a band-aid on a bigger problem.

[NQ6U]

I'd hesitate to sand anything on a motor that worked fine before but suddenly started acting up [...] I would think there's something else going on and sanding the valves would just be a band-aid on a bigger problem.

This.

Seems weird that your valve clearance would drop to zero overnight. Maybe you should check the torque on the head bolts?

[KG4CGC]

Valve clearance did go overnight. I may have let it run without attending to it for too long.

[N8YX]

Careful sanding the shims. Some are not hardened all the way through and you may get into softer metal which will deform under load.

If they're uniformly hardened all the way through, best approach is to use a quenched surface grinder so as not to disturb the tempering of the metal.

Are all of the valves now tight? If so you may have had an overheated head that allowed the seats to creep into the head material.

[KG4CGC]

Careful sanding the shims. Some are not hardened all the way through and you may get into softer metal which will deform under load.

If they're uniformly hardened all the way through, best approach is to use a quenched surface grinder so as not to disturb the tempering of the metal.

Are all of the valves now tight? If so you may have had an overheated head that allowed the seats to creep into the head material.

I'm thing cam bearing. Here's a crappy video. I'm pretty sure there isn't supposed to be play in this.



http://s25.photobucket.com/user/bebop5/media/photobucket-34555-1402293972890_zps272b5fa5.mp4.html

[KG4CGC]

I have another motor with about 8K on it. I may have to swap but the motor has been sitting for 3 years so today I was prepping it, so to speak by spraying WD40 down the intake manifold and the took out the spark plug and sprayed some down it there and it sit. Later I came back and turned the motor by the crank and it seems to have compression.

While I was messing with it I took the valve cover off to see it the play in the cam bearing was present it that one. It was. I have to suspect that this is normal. The problem I may be having may be coming from the crank bearing. As far as I know you can't just replace the bearing. You have to replace the whole crankshaft, bearing and piston rod as no single bearing is offered.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2007/NPS50+A/CRANKSHAFT/parts.html

I got down into the valve springs and the look fine, feel fine, act fine. If I do the swap, I'll take apart the oil pump first and inspect it as it is nothing more than a set of gears which could be making noise and the water pump is a similar set up. The motor starts right up and revs up fine. There's just that noise and a slight loss of power near the top end. Speed-wise it meets all its bench marks that I have along my regular routes except downhill top end which is about 4 mph slower.

Before I do the swap I'm going to see it perhaps there is something causing a blockage in the oil flow in the case. Is automatic transmission fluid the right stuff to use to do this? Seems like I've read somewhere that that is the way to do an internal engine cleaning. Right or wrong?

[w2amr]

Careful sanding the shims. Some are not hardened all the way through and you may get into softer metal which will deform under load.

If they're uniformly hardened all the way through, best approach is to use a quenched surface grinder so as not to disturb the tempering of the metal.

Are all of the valves now tight? If so you may have had an overheated head that allowed the seats to creep into the head material.I was thinking about that possibility, but I have never seen valve seats actually move into the head. Which is about the only way that the valves would now be at zero lash.

[KG4CGC]

Any overheating would have put it immediately into limp mode.

[KG4CGC]

The usual valve adjustment lasts about 15,000 mile if you keep it under 8500 rpm. I usually run 9000 to 10000 over long distances. What usually changes the spec is wear on the rocker arms at the tappet unless you have a motor that has 30K on it that's been running at high rpm.
The spec for the intake is .010mm and exhaust is .019mm. The exhaust heats up more so it makes up more space (expands) once warmed up.

I should get a bigger bike but I still want to fix this. If I sell it it will bring $1500 to $1800 running properly. Yes. That is what the market is bringing.

[N8YX]

I was thinking about that possibility, but I have never seen valve seats actually move into the head. Which is about the only way that the valves would now be at zero lash.
I have a friend who used to have a '99 Fat Boy. The seats are interference-fit into the heads on those bikes. Somehow, hers managed that trick with 1600mi on it - albeit they moved OUT of the head, not INTO it. Better still was the fact that Harley wouldn't warranty the motor - they just slapped a new top end on the thing and called it a day. Several of us wanted her to save the oil filter that was on the bike immediately prior to the top end change and cut it apart to look for metal shavings but she disregarded that bit of advice.

It goes without saying the bike was sold shortly thereafter.

[N2CHX]

What kind of gas do you run in it? I was running high octane but on the advice of many people I switched to plain ol' 87 octane and I don't see a difference in performance at all. The difference is, it's supposed to run cooler at the lower octane and thus increase lifespan.

[N8YX]

What kind of gas do you run in it? I was running high octane but on the advice of many people I switched to plain ol' 87 octane and I don't see a difference in performance at all. The difference is, it's supposed to run cooler at the lower octane and thus increase lifespan.
Run the lowest octane gas that the OEM calls for which will not knock. Some specify 86 octane and in the real world the bike is happier with 87. Go the other way with too high an octane number and a portion of it doesn't burn if compression isn't high enough to ensure complete combustion. This in turn will almost guarantee fouled plugs.

[N2CHX]

Run the lowest octane gas that the OEM calls for which will not knock. Some specify 86 octane and in the real world the bike is happier with 87. Go the other way with too high an octane number and a portion of it doesn't burn if compression isn't high enough to ensure complete combustion. This in turn will almost guarantee fouled plugs.

Never had an issue with fouled plugs, but I do think it runs cooler now. I just started this two weeks ago and did it purely by accident. I had been balking at the idea but then one day I accidentally hit the wrong button at the pump...

[w2amr]

I have a friend who used to have a '99 Fat Boy. The seats are interference-fit into the heads on those bikes. Somehow, hers managed that trick with 1600mi on it - albeit they moved OUT of the head, not INTO it. Better still was the fact that Harley wouldn't warranty the motor - they just slapped a new top end on the thing and called it a day. Several of us wanted her to save the oil filter that was on the bike immediately prior to the top end change and cut it apart to look for metal shavings but she disregarded that bit of advice.

It goes without saying the bike was sold shortly thereafter.
My Fat Boy is a 97. Hope the valve seats stay put.

[w2amr]

I have another motor with about 8K on it. I may have to swap but the motor has been sitting for 3 years so today I was prepping it, so to speak by spraying WD40 down the intake manifold and the took out the spark plug and sprayed some down it there and it sit. Later I came back and turned the motor by the crank and it seems to have compression.

While I was messing with it I took the valve cover off to see it the play in the cam bearing was present it that one. It was. I have to suspect that this is normal. The problem I may be having may be coming from the crank bearing. As far as I know you can't just replace the bearing. You have to replace the whole crankshaft, bearing and piston rod as no single bearing is offered.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2007/NPS50+A/CRANKSHAFT/parts.html

I got down into the valve springs and the look fine, feel fine, act fine. If I do the swap, I'll take apart the oil pump first and inspect it as it is nothing more than a set of gears which could be making noise and the water pump is a similar set up. The motor starts right up and revs up fine. There's just that noise and a slight loss of power near the top end. Speed-wise it meets all its bench marks that I have along my regular routes except downhill top end which is about 4 mph slower.

Before I do the swap I'm going to see it perhaps there is something causing a blockage in the oil flow in the case. Is automatic transmission fluid the right stuff to use to do this? Seems like I've read somewhere that that is the way to do an internal engine cleaning. Right or wrong?
I don't think low oil flow is your problem. In any case, I wouldn't put ATF in the engine.

[KG4CGC]

I don't think low oil flow is your problem. In any case, I wouldn't put ATF in the engine.

OK thanks.

I run high octane and a system cleaner once a month. Whenever I take the carb apart it's always clean as a whistle that's never been used.
Over heating has never been an issue. It is liquid cooled and I change the cooling fluid once a year.

I'm pretty much concluded there is an internal bearing issue, probably the crank bearing. In the earlier models they were failure prone due to lack of gas venting off the crank case. That problem was addressed in 2006 with a vent and PCV valve, which I have on mine.


ETA: Valve lash is unrelated as I see now. It was just the first and easiest thing to check over the weekend while the bike shop was closed.

[KG4CGC]

Question: If I'm looking for a used Ninja 250r, what should I look at while giving one the once over. 2007 to 2010 range.
I'm seriously considering this because there are a lot of them and they're cheap.

ETA: http://greenville.craigslist.org/mcy/4501248543.html

[N8YX]

Honestly? Look at the condition of the wheels, fork tubes and the head pipes. Those who tend to ride 'em hard and put 'em away wet will never bother with cleaning any of these and a pre-showing wash job won't eliminate years of neglect.

Take along a paper towel or napkin, remove the engine oil dipstick and wipe - then sniff and examine. Detect a lot of gas, or does the oil smell burned?

Folks who tend to look after the outer portions of their rides will tend to look after the innards as well.

Another thing to be wary of is a warmed-up motor prior to your visit. The bike's fuel system and/or top end may require attention and be difficult to start unless you "...know the drill...". Start it cold then warm it up to operating temperature (cylinder head warm to the touch) and see if it requires an unusual amount of choke or throttle manipulation to stay running.

Put the bike on its center stand and check swingarm bearing condition along with the steering head bearings. Feel gritty, or is there observed free play?

[NQ6U]

Also, if the seller is wearing a denim jacket with the sleeves torn off and a patch that says "Hell's Angels Berdoo" on the back, you may want to consider looking elsewhere.

[w2amr]

Also, if the seller is wearing a denim jacket with the sleeves torn off and a patch that says "Hell's Angels Berdoo" on the back, you may want to consider looking elsewhere.And If he is riding a Ninja 250r, take a picture and post it on Facebook ASAP.

[KG4CGC]

Washed off the other motor, the one with 8K on it.
Saw this little head turner with 7K on it. It's a 99 but it's not about going fast.

http://greenville.craigslist.org/mcy/4517382999.html

[N8OBM]

Never had an issue with fouled plugs, but I do think it runs cooler now. I just started this two weeks ago and did it purely by accident. I had been balking at the idea but then one day I accidentally hit the wrong button at the pump...

My understanding of octane was that it had nothing to do with the amount of energy in the Gasoline. If you run an older motor designed for 87 with out changing the timing and the like you will see the same power output with 87 as you will with 92. Modern car motors with engine computers are a different story as the computer is tuning the motor all the time, you can see an extra 5-10% power from 92 octane. Octane is the measure of the amount of compression you can subject the air fuel mixture to with out pre-ignition. That was why High compression motors like higher octane fuel. Higher compression nets more power. As I recall higher octane fuel lets you advance the timing a little which can produce more power and I believe you can play with the mixture a little bit which can also net a little more power. As to the motor running cooler on 87, you should measure the temps at the head with a pyrometer like we used to do with air cooled VW's. I'll take an ounce of measurement over a pound of speculation every time.

I would be very cautious if you believe the valves are tight. Tight valves burn because they don't seal all the way and then you are rebuilding the head. It is unusual for valves to get tight. They usually get loose with time. In my experience with most motors the shims, lash adjusters, cam follower and the cam wear faster than the valve and valve seat. This one might be the exception. The only times I've seen valves get tight was when the valves were loosing material (burnt) or the valve seats were very worn. You can usually see that by measuring the compression. Either means it's rebuild time. If the compression is low spray some oil in the cylinder. If it goes up, it's the rings, If it stays low it's the valves. The last time I saw really worn valve seats was on a late 60's MG that was run on no lead fuel with out an additive or lead substitute. I rebuilt the head with stainless valves and hardened valve seats. I wouldn't sand the shims as they are likely surface hardened. Get the shim kit if you plan on keeping it. It will pay for itself pretty quickly. Either way you do need to get those valves adjusted or you will need to rebuild the head if you don't need to already. Tight valves are Bad JuJu.

Archie N8OBM

[KG4CGC]

Indeed. It is normal on these motors for the valves to go tight.

[KG4CGC]

When I start breaking it down I'll take pictures.

[K7SGJ]

When I start breaking it down I'll take pictures.


Of a frustrated you, or the bike parts?

[KG4CGC]

http://greenville.craigslist.org/mcy/4493774014.html
What should I pay attention to if I go look at this bike?


I like this style, but I wonder how reliable it could be.
http://greenville.craigslist.org/mcy/4518544335.html

[w2amr]

http://greenville.craigslist.org/mcy/4493774014.html
What should I pay attention to if I go look at this bike?


I like this style, but I wonder how reliable it could be.
http://greenville.craigslist.org/mcy/4518544335.html
I would go for the Shadow.

[NQ6U]

I would go for the Shadow.

Agreed. Buying a 35 year old bike is asking for trouble.

[KG4CGC]

Agreed. Buying a 35 year old bike is asking for trouble.

LOL. I just like the style. I'm not a Honda doctor.

[w2amr]

Agreed. Buying a 35 year old bike is asking for trouble.
Or a 35 year old car?:mrgreen:

[NQ6U]

Or a 35 year old car?:mrgreen:

Good point, but the Chevy isn't your main mode of transportation, is it? Also, a 35-year-old American car is a lot easier to repair than a Japanese bike of similar vintage.

[KG4CGC]

Good point, but the Chevy isn't your main mode of transportation, is it? Also, a 35-year-old American car is a lot easier to repair than a Japanese bike of similar vintage.

In defense of a 35 year old Japanese bike, that IS a tried and true design with the Goldwing engine. I like the look of that bike but, I certainly wouldn't get at this point in time.
I'm also looking at this, although it will need a color change.
http://greenville.craigslist.org/mcy/4491536278.html

[NQ6U]

I'm also looking at this, although it will need a color change.

I passed one of those parked the street last Saturday and I couldn't figure out whether it was a small bike or a big scooter.

[KG4CGC]

I passed one of those parked the street last Saturday and I couldn't figure out whether it was a small bike or a big scooter.

It's an automatic. CVT. Constantly Variable Transmission. Two pulley belt system. I am intimately familiar with how those things work. Last year at the meet in OBX I had the fastest 50cc there. I only had small carb tweaks and a windshield but I was running stock suspension and stock seat height. When the "modded out" guys tucked to gain speed, I tucked and passed them.
Most tuning happens in the CVT on these things. Not that I'll be making any changes any time soon if I do get the yellow one. It's just familiar territory with the upkeep. It also has the same kind of carb but in a 30mm form factor vs 18mm. Single cylinder, twist and go, both brakes on the handlebars.

[w2amr]

Good point, but the Chevy isn't your main mode of transportation, is it? Also, a 35-year-old American car is a lot easier to repair than a Japanese bike of similar vintage.That's for sure.

[N8YX]

If you want a 'Wing, look around for a 1983 GL1100 Standard or a 1984 1200 Standard.

Parts for those engines are still available, as are most chassis parts. I know of examples with 300,000 miles and more on them.

[KG4CGC]

And to be completely honest, If I could find an 07 or later Burgman in my price range, that would be great. A Silverwing 08 or better too.
Both are fuel injected.

There certainly isn't a shortage of Shadows out there. The Ninja in a 250 is still a consideration.

[w2amr]

And to be completely honest, If I could find an 07 or later Burgman in my price range, that would be great. A Silverwing 08 or better too.
Both are fuel injected.

There certainly isn't a shortage of Shadows out there. The Ninja in a 250 is still a consideration.
Look around for an old iron head XLCH Sportster. Lots of fun to ride, and a great cardio workout trying to get it started.:mrgreen:

[KG4CGC]

Look around for an old iron head XLCH Sportster. Lots of fun to ride, and a great cardio workout trying to get it started.:mrgreen:

Not sure I could get that up the ramp! Guess I'll have to build a shed.

One of the serious considerations for fuel injection is for the mountains. I'm at about 1000 to 1100 feet above sea level. When I hit the local mountains I can easily reach 2400'. Cross the state line into NC and we're talking 3200' before even getting to the Blue Ridge Parkway at which point I did ride the Ruckus up to Mt. Mitchel which is 6600'. Didn't want to rejet up there but I did cut the fuel feed a few times not really knowing if it was right.

When I went to Key West I did rejet down there as well as shimming the needle to raise it up a touch and allow more fuel for the entire midrange. I left it that way and seriously cut the fuel flow reaching the jets when I got home. There is one screw or needle that controls the fuel while the air flow is controlled by a spring and diaphragm. When I went to the Outer Banks I simply adjusted the fuel needle again and I was hitting 50 on flat road beside the ocean. I was passing the guys running greater mods with lowered suspension and seat height. I was on stock suspension and seat height. Aside from maybe getting the fuel mix right, my CVT was as close to perfectly balanced as I have ever it and I was able to get the belt to go all the way down into the rear pulley thus maxing out my top gear. Of course the way I shaped the driven face on the front pulley had a lot to do with that.

A fun as all that is, I'm ready for something bigger even if that means I'll only get up to 65 mile per gallon vs 111.

[KG4CGC]

Picked up a 2011 Honda CBR 250r this evening. 7K on the clock and the price was right. It's all black too. I'm just going to add small red accents like pin (or trim) striping and cover the gray and white brand and badgeing stickers with identical ones in red. That's it. It needs nothing else. It's got a big tach and a digital speedo. Works for me. I may redo the gray muffler cover in flat black.

Motor sounds great. No scratches, just a smudge on one of the CBR250r badges. Ready for my first oil change and thankfully, it used a real oil filter, not a metal screen. I also like that the mirrors are fixed on the front faring area and not on the handle bars.

As a first timer with gear changes and a foot brake, I have read that the clutch and first gear is very forgiving on these things. It is the bike I originally wanted since last year. Literally, one year ago. They are few and far between on Craigslist and ran for 1100 more than I paid. Of course in all fairness, none of the ones I saw listed before had 7K on them and usually had between 1K and 3K. (odo)

Now I'll keep up with traffic past 45 mph. Past 45 on the Ruck was slow unless you were going down hill. I'm just going to do the engine swap on the Ruck, make sure it performs correctly, remove the unlimited CDI and sell it. I can get a couple of extra bones for the CDI online. Besides, I'm the only guy in the area that rides a Ruck seriously so I'm just guessing that the next buyer will be a Ruckus noob although that's not necessarily a given.

Another thing is that the CBR 250r is 160 lbs heavier than a Ruckus (359 lbs). Maybe a big jump but the Yamaha Majesty (400cc) I was looking at comes in somewhere around 440 lbs. The Silverwing at 501.

Just for reference:
250 Ninja 375 lbs
Hyosung GT250r 377 lbs


http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2011-250cc-beginner-bike-shootout-90422.html
Now maybe after a couple of years I'll get something bigger but for now, this thing is a rocket.

[N8YX]

You'll have a lot of fun on that bike, Charles. One of our members - local area friend - had an older CBR1000 and it was a hoot to ride.

Of course, you do realize the next step is a Concours 1000 - right?

[NQ6U]

Good choice, Charles, if for no other reason than the Honda has EFI, while the Kawi does not. That takes care of your elevation changes for you.

[KG4CGC]

For the new-(ish) rider, it is a more stable and predictable platform than other bikes in the same class. 6 gears with 1 through 5 being very geared very low and 6 only for highway use. The Ninja is faster past 65 mph and tops out higher but for me, I just want to ride at the traffic's pace and accelerate at a level that will flow with traffic. My biggest concern is to not go for the hand brake immediately. I've been going back in my mind of the time when I was a kid and rode bicycles with foot brakes. This must become instinct as I have already discovered in the yard that the front brake does not like to be worked alone, if you want to stay on both wheels that is. No worries. Everything is fine. I just dipped the forks down really good one time. I've only taken it for laps in the yard. Street practice will come up soon, weather permitting.

I'm off to the tax man's office to pay that then off to the DMV for tag and etc.

Thanks everyone for the kind words.

[KG4CGC]

You'll have a lot of fun on that bike, Charles. One of our members - local area friend - had an older CBR1000 and it was a hoot to ride.

Of course, you do realize the next step is a Concours 1000 - right?

Perhaps after I take the road test and get past that, I will go for a heavier bike. I'm glad I didn't get a Shadow at this time. Also the feet forward controls just don't jive right with me at this time.

[KG4CGC]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnd, $200 later, we're set. $170 of that was sales and property taxes.
Now I have to work on the pool and wash the dishes.

[WØTKX]

Most of your stopping power is on the front brakes. Don't get into bad habits, always use the front and back brakes together. When I used to ride (sigh) I preferred a front brake lever that was easy to keep a finger or two on at all times. Check those front forks out, even without fancy valving and such, a lot of fork dive might be an indication of a lack of fork(in) oil.

My last bike (the ZG1000 that 'YX mentioned) was setup to add a little compressed air into the forks to change the stiffness and such. Many newer bikes have an anti-dive feature that is even more sophisticated.

The Honda is an excellent choice. :agree:

[KG4CGC]

Thanks for the advice.
First thing on the maintenance list is an oil and filter change. If I am having excess fork dive it will have to wait until I have a little more cashus. The Ruck should sell quickly. I'll also need to build a shed out back. It's parked in the living room right now. My XYL is keeper.

[KG4CGC]

Most of your stopping power is on the front brakes. Don't get into bad habits, always use the front and back brakes together. When I used to ride (sigh) I preferred a front brake lever that was easy to keep a finger or two on at all times. Check those front forks out, even without fancy valving and such, a lot of fork dive might be an indication of a lack of fork(in) oil.

My last bike (the ZG1000 that 'YX mentioned) was setup to add a little compressed air into the forks to change the stiffness and such. Many newer bikes have an anti-dive feature that is even more sophisticated.

The Honda is an excellent choice. :agree:

Yeah, on a scooter, both brakes are on the handlebars. That brake dive I went for the clutch and front brake. After that I took a couple of laps working the foot brake. On a scooter, and I know you know this, you don't do anything with your feet until you come to a standstill.