Expanding 2 Meters

[W0AJA]

I have been searching through and noticed that some people are trying to allocate a 4 Meter Band here in the USA. The past few weeks I have been thinking, could the ARRL and FCC allow the VHF Band Plan 144-148 to 140-148 MHz? If you think, its really squished all together with no room for portable usage, all repeaters.

Has this been done in the past, and last i looked no one is allocated 140-144 MHz unless I am wrong, but I know 150-160 MHz is FIRE/PD/EMS and 162 is NOAA. Plus 135 MHz and below is maritime Mobile and CAP.

What do you guys think on here?

[WØTKX]

Not likely. It's a 'government allocation"...

http://www.spectrumwiki.com/wiki/display.aspx?f=142000000&limit=on

[KG4CGC]

I'd be OK with getting more repeaters off the air. You don't need a bunch of repeaters in one area that basically equate an owner's private frequency. Maybe place repeaters on a grid 50 miles apart in all directions.

[K7SGJ]

I'd be OK with getting more repeaters off the air. You don't need a bunch of repeaters in one area that basically equate an owner's private frequency. Maybe place repeaters on a grid 50 miles apart in all directions.

Not just that, but there are a lot of inactive repeaters, and assigned frequency pairs that never seem to have a working repeater on them.

[KG4CGC]

Not just that, but there are a lot of inactive repeaters, and assigned frequency pairs that never seem to have a working repeater on them.

Paper Repeaters. Get on their frequency and watch (listen) a bunch people start having a snit.

[KC2UGV]

I'd be OK with getting more repeaters off the air. You don't need a bunch of repeaters in one area that basically equate an owner's private frequency. Maybe place repeaters on a grid 50 miles apart in all directions.

That's the key right there.

We have huge swaths of repeater pairs, and even trying to contact the coordination councils can be a pain. Luckily, the allocated pairs here are generally used, and working in good order, but I know for a fact that is not the norm across the country.

[PA5COR]

You Guy's already have 144-148, we here have to do with 144-146 in dense Europe....

[K7SGJ]

You Guy's already have 144-148, we here have to do with 144-146 in dense Europe....

I don't think Europeans are dense. :stickpoke:

[W3WN]

Very unlikely to happen, Austin.

Those parts of the spectrum are already allocated to other services. Even if they are using them lightly these days, they use them enough to justify keeping them.

That aside, in many areas of the country -- like ours -- the 222 - 225 MHz spectrum is underutilized. So if someone wants another repeater pair, the question will be raised "why not go to 220?".

And, of course, the international allocation is 144 - 146 MHz, 144 - 148 MHz is Region 2. So there's little justification, from that standpoint, to additional frequencies.

With all due respect to Glen, I think his petition for a 4 meter band is going nowhere... if anything, it got there and is staying there. The FCC is simply not inclined to go out of their way to give us more spectrum, not without a damned good reason.

Overall, I don't believe the Amateur Community as a whole could make a good case for expanding the 2 meter band, and without that, any request to the FCC for expansion will result in one of three outcomes:

"No."
"Hell no."
"Are you out of your Vulcan mind? NO!"

[K0RGR]

I think we need to make better use of the 2 meter spectrum we have first.

Many of the overcrowding concerns would be eliminated if more of us put up horizontal beams for 2 meters and used SSB instead of FM. Most of the weak signal portion of the band is neglected, and you could fit hundreds of QSO's in there. And, 100 watts of SSB on 2 meters and a small yagi will let you vastly 'out-DX' the local two meter repeaters, too.

I do, absolutely, agree that there are too many repeaters sitting around doing exactly nothing, 24 X 7 X 365. As a result, we have repeater pairs being consumed for no benefit to anyone, while new repeater groups go begging. I think ARRL should start a fund to buy and shut down dead repeaters in order to free up repeater pairs in congested areas. I am a strong advocate of linking repeaters, which can be wasteful of repeater pairs, but highly beneficial by increasing the potential pool of users for the combined repeater systems. At least those repeaters are doing something, and some of the lined systems are just magnificent, like WIN (in both California and Wisconsin) and the Intermountain Intertie.

The ideal thing would be to have a single, national coordination organization with the resources to determine the actual needs for repeaters in different areas. Why do towns with 3 hams need four repeaters, all linked together, IDing at the same time? Most towns in the midwest would be well served with one repeater linked to a wide area/regional network and another one for strictly local use. Of course, you will have competing EMCOMM and special interest groups howling that they NEED their own repeater for whatever reason, real or imagined.

[W0AJA]

I agree with most, the 220 pair isn't even used around here, and I think the fact is that radios (mobile) don't offer 2 meter, 220, and 70cm, just 2 meter or 2 meter and 70cm.

I seen on alot of club websites to where they have 2-5 frequency pairs PER band, and I think it is outrageous. We do need to take better care of the band we have,.

[KG4CGC]

The ideal thing would be to have a single, national coordination organization with the resources to determine the actual needs for repeaters in different areas.
This would be a great idea if the people staffing it were beyond reproach.

[W2NAP]

I seen on alot of club websites to where they have 2-5 frequency pairs PER band, and I think it is outrageous. We do need to take better care of the band we have,.

Honestly. I think repeater ownership caps should have been put in place. 1 repeater per band no more.

[KC2UGV]

Honestly. I think repeater ownership caps should have been put in place. 1 repeater per band no more.

Wouldn't work so good with groups like BARRA (Buffalo Amateur Radio Repeater Association), who maintains 2 linked systems, with one repeater on each band for each system.

[K7SGJ]

This would be a great idea if the people staffing it were beyond reproach.

You're not suggesting that "people in power" can be corrupted?

[W2NAP]

Wouldn't work so good with groups like BARRA (Buffalo Amateur Radio Repeater Association), who maintains 2 linked systems, with one repeater on each band for each system.

Biggest problem is the clubs who paper repeater so to speak. they put up machines that nobody ever uses thus ties up a pair someone else could of had and actually put the pair to use.

[n2ize]

Back in the early 1990's a friend of mine set up a local simplex repeater. The way it worked was you transmit and said what you had to say... up to 3-4 minutes in length and after you unkeyed the repeater would play back what you said on the same frequency. We had a lot of fun with it, including trying to see how far away we could reach it, I was able to work it from the streets of Manhattan and from a small aircraft over Philadelphia. eventually he took it offline and moved it up to the far north country. Today it is ancient tech.

As far as split frequency repeater allocations go I don't think we should take them off the air. But there should be serious consideration for whether or not any new ones are needed. Heck, I live in the busiest area in the country and most of the existing repeaters see very little activity these days,. We certainly don't need any more of them. 30 years ago i would have said the opposite. But these days the repeater has gone the way of the dodo.

Cell Phones Killed the Repeater Star.

[W2NAP]

Back in the early 1990's a friend of mine set up a local simplex repeater. The way it worked was you transmit and said what you had to say... up to 3-4 minutes in length and after you unkeyed the repeater would play back what you said on the same frequency. We had a lot of fun with it, including trying to see how far away we could reach it, I was able to work it from the streets of Manhattan and from a small aircraft over Philadelphia. eventually he took it offline and moved it up to the far north country. Today it is ancient tech.

As far as split frequency repeater allocations go I don't think we should take them off the air. But there should be serious consideration for whether or not any new ones are needed. Heck, I live in the busiest area in the country and most of the existing repeaters see very little activity these days,. We certainly don't need any more of them. 30 years ago i would have said the opposite. But these days the repeater has gone the way of the dodo.

Cell Phones Killed the Repeater Star.

I think its more like control freak repeater owners killed the repeater star.. some of the most active repeaters are the ones with a bit of controversy.

[W0AJA]

I know one group who has 3 pairs just for VHF!

1 Main and 2 backup's, I do not think they should be allowed to have 2 backup's hogging up pairs.

The club I am in, we have 1 backup. It remains off-air until needed, then it is turned on manually on the same pair, which I think club's should do.

[n2ize]

I think its more like control freak repeater owners killed the repeater star.. some of the most active repeaters are the ones with a bit of controversy.

Round here most of the repeaters are wide open, have excellent range and the control ops. have no problem with people using them. Unfortunately, compared to a decade or so ago they don't get a whole lot of use. This winter, being very cold and snowy, activity jumped way up on most of the repeaters. Now that spring is here it has gone back to an occasional whisper.

[W0AJA]

Our one club remains fairly active, not as much as we would like but enough. Our other is a linked system, to the old target system, and it has gotten quite a whisper, and that's to 80 nodes/repeaters.

I am sure Ron has used the WAN System, but recently its been dead!

[W3WN]

Our one club remains fairly active, not as much as we would like but enough. Our other is a linked system, to the old target system, and it has gotten quite a whisper, and that's to 80 nodes/repeaters.

I am sure Ron has used the WAN System, but recently its been dead!Actually, no, I never have. The closest I ever came to using a WAN system was back in the days of the "old" Blue Knob repeater, back when it had coverage from Valley Forge PA to Monroeville PA (E to W), and upstate NY through northern VA (N to S).

There's a lot of reasons why repeater systems have waxed and waned, mainly waned these days. Some of it is simply due to the changes in operating... the fact remains that over the last few years, the use of repeaters has dropped. Significantly.

Politics and personalities have had a LOT to do with all the repeaters around as well. We have redundant systems in many areas because years ago, you had two "rival" clubs, and as soon as one had a repeater, the other just HAD to have one as well. And we have many repeaters that are owned by an individual, or a small group of individuals, because their egos demanded that THEY just HAD to have one of their own. Of course, nowadays, nobody else uses them.

We also had a repeater coordinator in WPA (no longer in that position, thank goodness) who showed a lot of favoritism in handing out frequency pairs. Somehow, if two or more groups wanted a pair, and one group was considered his buddies... need I say more? He also hoarded a few frequency pairs for his own personal repeater systems, including the 442 MHz pair he swiped from me.

I could tell you a few stories. Maybe one day, I will.

In the meantime, the next club meeting you're at, ask Jerry W3DMB about the Pink Repeater.

[kb2vxa]

The NYC metro area must have the worst repeater glut on the planet with 2M pairs also having taken over simplex frequencies using 1MHz splits, and 440 is crowded too. The trouble is worse with unused repeaters that ID and nothing more, and a few paper repeaters. Not so much the underused 10, 6, and 1.25M bands, except for the NYFD that has linked repeaters on 10, 6, 2, 1.25M and 70cM that are used frequently. The farther south you go in Jersey the deader it gets.

I agree with what you say about the WAY underused "weak signal" allocations at the bottom of the bands that only come alive during openings when they do in a BIG way. It's like stations that only operate during contests, WHY? A few years ago there was a 220 boom, "everybody" including myself bought a rig (to replace an old one that bit the dust). Repeaters were popping up like mushrooms in the spring, then like a western mining town the band went bust. Now it's hard to find a 220 rig, but why make them if you can't sell them?

Some suggestions:
Organize a national coordinating committee to replace the hodge podge of regional ones sitting on their butts doing little to nothing.
This national committee should not rely on those with coordinated pairs to supply information initially to have them coordinated and forget about it. Supply information regarding actual use to be re-coordinated annually, if the repeater goes unused the pair loses coordination and is up for grabs. This will eliminate paper repeaters and discourage ego boxes. MONITOR repeaters for use to enforce re-coordination, as you know some people lie.
The rules regarding uncoordinated repeaters are working just fine so leave well enough alone.

When I sat for my test I heard a lot of prospective hams chomping at the bit to put a repeater on the air. I explained how there's a LOT more to a repeater than an ego box, mostly money, LOTS of money. Every one agreed and their pie in the sky dreams went up in smoke. Since then I've been doing by best to discourage them from buying an HT for their first 2M rig, the reasons to you should be obvious. Far too many do and are soon discouraged and give up the service, what a shame to lose kids who could go far but for one mistake. When they come complaining about what we're discussing here I encourage them to save their pennies for an all band all mode rig for future expansion. There's a LOT more above 30MHz than FM and repeaters to start with, then with full privileges they can shoot the moon, literally with EME if they want to. Then tuning the HF bands they can get a taste of what that's like and I encourage them to step up in the ranks (even if there's no point in it for me without antennas). I stress the fact that it's a one time investment, an all in one wonder box eliminates buying a shack full of radios for hams on a tight budget.

Oh and no comments from the peanut gallery about the lids, kids, and space cadets, PLEASE.

So-K guys, I had some very fine elmers and now it's my turn to return the favor. Now why don't you do what I do every chance I get? The young are our future in every way, if we don't do our best to teach them and encourage them we are doomed. Amateur Radio is no exception, and WE as hams are responsible and in control of the future!

[W7XF]

Austin.....a sad state of affairs exists in SoCal on 70cm....look at a repeater directory...all those pairs tied up with closed repeaters that Jon Q. Ham doesn't dare try to use as you would be read the riot act if you did.

As far as 4m.... it won't happen till all of North, Central and South America finally completes the transition to digital television, if ever.

[W7XF]

<snip>In the meantime, the next club meeting you're at, ask Jerry W3DMB about the Pink Repeater.<snip>
Hello.

Ron, I *hope* the trustee of that repeater isn't our pink APU-equipped Bell 47 owner.

[suddenseer]

Paper Repeaters. Get on their frequency and watch (listen) a bunch people start having a snit.
Repeater owner friends of (mostly) past ARRL officials. Lots of pairs assigned from them 'groups'. No repeaters yet. But you cannot put one up either.

[KC2UGV]

Biggest problem is the clubs who paper repeater so to speak. they put up machines that nobody ever uses thus ties up a pair someone else could of had and actually put the pair to use.

True, which is why we have local repeater coordination. The paper repeaters are an issue in your 'hood, but here in WNY, not so much. There's only a couple of lightly used repeaters here. But, thankfully, that's because the pairs were allocated to repeater groups, and not individuals.

[N8YX]

The elitist, private-channel mentality all but killed off the NEOH repeater scene. I recently had this conversation with a ham coworker when I was invited onto one of the area systems whose previous maintainers had invited me and a number of others OFF of it back in the late 80s.

Our crime? Holding a nightly wide-area ragchew net after all other operations on the machine had ceased.

Screw that noise. If I'm going to invest in VHF/UHF equipment it'll be in the form of capable SSB/CW transceivers or transverters, PA modules of 500+w per band, tall towers, large directional antennas and low-loss lines to feed the arrays. That should net me roughly the same coverage (and probably more) than even the highest-profile area repeater.

Most of the FM ragchew gang has likewise gone to simplex operation and these days it's a rare in-car communication that's not adequately handled by cell phones.

There are two area machines which are quite open and are doing quite well. Though donations are not required (or even encouraged), the owners have no shortage whatsoever of eager subsidizers. Wonder why that is...

[KG4CGC]

The elitist, private-channel mentality all but killed off the NEOH repeater scene. I recently had this conversation with a ham coworker when I was invited onto one of the area systems whose previous maintainers had invited me and a number of others OFF of it back in the late 80s.

Our crime? Holding a nightly wide-area ragchew net after all other operations on the machine had ceased.

Screw that noise. If I'm going to invest in VHF/UHF equipment it'll be in the form of capable SSB/CW transceivers or transverters, PA modules of 500+w per band, tall towers, large directional antennas and low-loss lines to feed the arrays. That should net me roughly the same coverage (and probably more) than even the highest-profile area repeater.

Most of the FM ragchew gang has likewise gone to simplex operation and these days it's a rare in-car communication that's not adequately handled by cell phones.

There are two area machines which are quite open and are doing quite well. Though donations are not required (or even encouraged), the owners have no shortage whatsoever of eager subsidizers. Wonder why that is...

Someone probably didn't like the content of your conversation or couldn't stand to see others having a good time. Used to happen around here a lot. These days, I wouldn't know.

[W0AJA]

Our club does alot of In-Car usage and from the shack work. The club is semi-active, but more than some.

The one club next to my county used to do a 2 Meter Net and a 10 Meter net, they hold the 10 Meters nets every Thursday at 9 I think, and the 2 meter net at 8:30 the same night. The 2 meter net I hear roughly once a month.

I even put a TM-281A in the ARES/RACES Go Box!

[NQ6U]

Austin.....a sad state of affairs exists in SoCal on 70cm....look at a repeater directory...all those pairs tied up with closed repeaters that Jon Q. Ham doesn't dare try to use as you would be read the riot act if you did.

While this is true to some extent, it's a bit of an exaggeration. There are still shit-tons of open repeaters available, most of which are hardly used.

[W3WN]

Hello.

Ron, I *hope* the trustee of that repeater isn't our pink APU-equipped Bell 47 owner.* chuckle *

No, not to worry. No connections to Tex-Mex taco loving Arabs with an obsession over APU's.

It has to do with the history of one of the Butler County (PA) repeaters. I know the story, but I think Austin will appreciate it more hearing it from one of the people involved at the time.

[K7SGJ]

While this is true to some extent, it's a bit of an exaggeration. There are still shit-tons of open repeaters available, most of which are hardly used.


SAE, Metric, or Imperial?

[W3WN]

Repeater owner friends of (mostly) past ARRL officials. Lots of pairs assigned from them 'groups'. No repeaters yet. But you cannot put one up either.
In the past, the WPa Repeater Council would (allegedly) send a letter to the "owner" of a silent or unused pair. If the "owner" said the repeater was still under construction or repairs and would be going live "soon", he (why is almost always a he? never mind) got an extension of at least 1 year.

My friend Steve W3SRL ran into this when he was searching for a frequency for what is now the N3SH 442.550 repeater. There is or was a ham who had a pair assigned, never used, on Pittsburgh's North Side. But every year, he'd get the letter and reply that he was almost done. Steve found out that this person's ticket had expired! and was in the 2 year grace period... makes it a little tough to legally put up a repeater & be trustee for it, don't ya think? Steve let the ham know his ticket had expired (and he then renewed it) and asked if he could use the pair. He was ignored, not even a thank you. (Well, we all know schnooks like that, and unfortunately, some of them are hams.)

I know that the current WPA repeater coordinator has plans to do something about this. I'm not at liberty to say what, suffice to say, automatic extensions will no longer be the norm.

Which reminds me... Austin, please stop over during the club picnic (you got the last newsletter, right? Details in there); consider yourself officially invited. Frank is planning on being there, he usually is. As will other members of the club with repeater experience. Trust me on this, you'll be able to learn a lot. (And we really need to get a decent VHF antenna on your place)

[K7SGJ]

In the past, the WPa Repeater Council would (allegedly) send a letter to the "owner" of a silent or unused pair. If the "owner" said the repeater was still under construction or repairs and would be going live "soon", he (why is almost always a he? never mind) got an extension of at least 1 year.

My friend Steve W3SRL ran into this when he was searching for a frequency for what is now the N3SH 442.550 repeater. There is or was a ham who had a pair assigned, never used, on Pittsburgh's North Side. But every year, he'd get the letter and reply that he was almost done. Steve found out that this person's ticket had expired! and was in the 2 year grace period... makes it a little tough to legally put up a repeater & be trustee for it, don't ya think? Steve let the ham know his ticket had expired (and he then renewed it) and asked if he could use the pair. He was ignored, not even a thank you. (Well, we all know schnooks like that, and unfortunately, some of them are hams.)

I know that the current WPA repeater coordinator has plans to do something about this. I'm not at liberty to say what, suffice to say, automatic extensions will no longer be the norm.

Which reminds me... Austin, please stop over during the club picnic (you got the last newsletter, right? Details in there); consider yourself officially invited. Frank is planning on being there, he usually is. As will other members of the club with repeater experience. Trust me on this, you'll be able to learn a lot. (And we really need to get a decent VHF antenna on your place)

........and bring a side of beef with you. Thanks.

[kb2vxa]

I could have sworn (but it's not polite) there's a linked network that covers much of the Southwest. So, is it open or one of those grouchy old fart nets that sends the posse out to hang you from the nearest Joshua tree after dragging you through a cactus patch?

Throughout history
There've been many songs written about the closed repeaters.
This next one tells the story of a Kilohertz Cop, a wide area repeater,
And a condemned ham named Tom Dooley who mistook it for an open repeater...
When the sun rises tomorrow, Tom Dooley... must hang...

Hang down your head Tom Dooley,
Hang down your head and cry.
Hang down your head Tom Dooley,
Tomorrow you're bound to die.............

[K0RGR]

Hey, look out, the Schnooks are a proud old American family, of which I'm a descendant.

I was hoping that the digital revolution would assist with this problem. But the 'establishment' is not going to take to digital willingly. Look at all of the repeater councils who've vowed to segregate digital systems.

Another thing I've hoped to see is making PL mandatory. It's almost happened in some places, and 95% our machines have it. Now, if they would just set up their repeaters to transmit a PL tone, we could overcome many problems. It would even allow low-usage repeaters to share repeater pairs, which would be a great idea. But I suspect most repeater owners are totally opposed to that. Their ego machine deserves it's own dedicated repeater pair, even if the last time it was used was when Nixon was president.

One problem with current coordination schemes is that the repeater councils are composed of repeater owners, whose interests and those of the ham population in general do not always agree. While most councils have taken steps to eliminate paper repeaters, not all have. In these days when someone will sue over nothing, some councils are afraid to do anything for fear of being sued. We are talking about repeater equipment with tangible value here, and if the council has granted coordination to a particular repeater, revoking that amounts to a devaluation of the repeater owner's property. The law firm Dewey, Cheatham and Howe is always ready to represent these poor folks.

6 meters is becoming a ray of sunshine in some areas, with new repeater groups there. I think the loss of part of our 440 band in California and New England due to Pave Paws will eventually lead to migration to another band, but it's not clear where that will be. The 902 band does have a lot to offer, and there is a load of surplus commercial gear out there for the band, most of which needs only reprogramming for ham use. We had some 1.2 Ghz portable rigs years ago - I had a Kenwood.

[K7SGJ]

I could have sworn (but it's not polite) there's a linked network that covers much of the Southwest. So, is it open or one of those grouchy old fart nets that sends the posse out to hang you from the nearest Joshua tree after dragging you through a cactus patch?

Throughout history
There've been many songs written about the closed repeaters.
This next one tells the story of a Kilohertz Cop, a wide area repeater,
And a condemned ham named Tom Dooley who mistook it for an open repeater...
When the sun rises tomorrow, Tom Dooley... must hang...

Hang down your head Tom Dooley,
Hang down your head and cry.
Hang down your head Tom Dooley,
Tomorrow you're bound to die.............

There was, and still may be, a link between the Southeastern part of Arizona and the Southwestern part of New Mexico, but it wasn't very big. I think the Calzona link, between San Diego and Phoenix is all that is left of the once ZIA link. As I recall, it covered California, Arizona, New Mexico, and parts of Texas, but that went TU years ago.

[n2ize]

I could have sworn (but it's not polite) there's a linked network that covers much of the Southwest. So, is it open or one of those grouchy old fart nets that sends the posse out to hang you from the nearest Joshua tree after dragging you through a cactus patch?

Throughout history
There've been many songs written about the closed repeaters.
This next one tells the story of a Kilohertz Cop, a wide area repeater,
And a condemned ham named Tom Dooley who mistook it for an open repeater...
When the sun rises tomorrow, Tom Dooley... must hang...

Hang down your head Tom Dooley,
Hang down your head and cry.
Hang down your head Tom Dooley,
Tomorrow you're bound to die.............

Looks more like a hangee than a hangman.

[WØTKX]

http://www.cactus-intertie.org/

And here in Colorado, we have the Colorado Connection...

http://www.colcon.org/welcome.html

But, I'd rather play on 2M SSB.

[KJ3N]

Many of the overcrowding concerns would be eliminated if more of us put up horizontal beams for 2 meters and used SSB instead of FM. Most of the weak signal portion of the band is neglected, and you could fit hundreds of QSO's in there. And, 100 watts of SSB on 2 meters and a small yagi will let you vastly 'out-DX' the local two meter repeaters, too.

Fifty watts and 13 elements does pretty good, too. ;)

12224


But, I'd rather play on 2M SSB.

I put up my first 2m SSB antenna (eight elements) in June 1999, the Friday before the June VHF contest. About a month after it was up, I worked W0AV in Kansas City, MO. After that, FM repeaters pale in comparison.

[W7XF]

While this is true to some extent, it's a bit of an exaggeration. There are still shit-tons of open repeaters available, most of which are hardly used.

On 2m, yes. 70cm....look at LA, Orange, San Berdoo counties, and to a lesser extent, San Diego County. Open 70cm repeaters are very much the exception.

[kb2vxa]

50W PEP and 8el does pretty good, but Delaware to South Dakota isn't line of sight by a long shot. (;->) Cummon, 'fess up and admit that was sporadic E. When I lived in West Creek I did well with 15W AM and 22el @ 60ft HAAT, but receiving was a bugger using the VFO as a BFO. At zero beat the other guy never guessed I was transmitting AM until I told him.

[W2NAP]

True, which is why we have local repeater coordination. The paper repeaters are an issue in your 'hood, but here in WNY, not so much. There's only a couple of lightly used repeaters here. But, thankfully, that's because the pairs were allocated to repeater groups, and not individuals.

I find the "groups/clubs" tend to be the worst violators.

Oh and I forgot about the worthless 10 minute NET all NO TRAFFIC... christ, just call it a damn radio check net.

[n2ize]

50W PEP and 8el does pretty good, but Delaware to South Dakota isn't line of sight by a long shot. (;->) Cummon, 'fess up and admit that was sporadic E. When I lived in West Creek I did well with 15W AM and 22el @ 60ft HAAT, but receiving was a bugger using the VFO as a BFO. At zero beat the other guy never guessed I was transmitting AM until I told him.

At one point I modulated the VFO of a Johnson 6n2 transmitter (100 watts) and used it to work a few of the local and distant 2 meter repeaters. I would tune the vfo to the input and receive the output via a scanner. It was a bitch keeping the vfo centered on the repeaters input. I had to constantly babysit it or else it would drift out of the repeaters bandpass. But it worked. Of course it was also great for simplex operation and of course 2 meter AM. Yep, I was a Yay-em gangsta on vhf for a spell...

[n2ize]

The NYC metro area must have the worst repeater glut on the planet with 2M pairs also having taken over simplex frequencies using 1MHz splits, and 440 is crowded too. The trouble is worse with unused repeaters that ID and nothing more, and a few paper repeaters. Not so much the underused 10, 6, and 1.25M bands, except for the NYFD that has linked repeaters on 10, 6, 2, 1.25M and 70cM that are used frequently. The farther south you go in Jersey the deader it gets.
I

Actually there is no NYFD. There is an FDNY though. In the past they were in VHF between 154.100 - 154.500 (approximately). They have since switched to UHF but they still simulcast on the old VHF freqs. Now I am speaking of their public service repeaters that handle fire traffic. I presume you are referring to the FDNY amateur club that operates repeaters on 10m -70 cm.

Most of the repeaters around here are dead these days. Occasionally I hear activity on the alpine repeater in Jersey. I occasionally talk on that machine. Then there is the Westchester Emergency WECA machine that does see activity and a traffic net every night but traffic is light on that machine compared to a decade or 2 ago. Probably the busiest repeater is the LIMARC machine in Long Island. That machine is almost constantly active. Also a lot of controversy, jammers, etc. on that machine

[K0RGR]

Fifty watts and 13 elements does pretty good, too. ;)

12224



I put up my first 2m SSB antenna (eight elements) in June 1999, the Friday before the June VHF contest. About a month after it was up, I worked W0AV in Kansas City, MO. After that, FM repeaters pale in comparison.

100 watts and a single yagi from here will work all over Minnesota and most of the surrounding states. The biggest issue is that the state slopes up to the west from here, so range in that direction tends to be a lot less than to the east. There is an 8 watt beacon in the vicinity of Chicago that is usually quite strong here for a station with a single yagi at a reasonable height. That's about 300 miles.

There is an 'overwater' path to the east from Minnesota that is often open to Michigan and eastern Ontario with occasional openings into Ohio and New York. These are pretty consistent paths, too, and they work better on the higher bands. There was a guy in Des Moines when I lived there that kept skeds with a guy in Indiana on 432 SSB. They ran higher power, but I was able to work the Indiana station with 10 watts from the east side of Des Moines.

Now, imagine if all the 2 meter FM guys between here and Indiana were on SSB, and were able to work each other direct without repeaters. Two meters would sound like 40 meters. With all the hassle over antenna restrictions, it would seem to me that putting up something that looks much like a TV antenna would be a solution for many.

[AC6AT]

I think we need to make better use of the 2 meter spectrum we have first.

Many of the overcrowding concerns would be eliminated if more of us put up horizontal beams for 2 meters and used SSB instead of FM.

In populated areas the idea might take off more quickly if people put up verticals. (*waits to be struck dead by lightning for heresy*) That way people with all-mode wonderboxes in their cars, trucks, bikes, and trikes could play without having to change antennas.


The ideal thing would be to have a single, national coordination organization with the resources to determine the actual needs for repeaters in different areas. Why do towns with 3 hams need four repeaters, all linked together, IDing at the same time? Most towns in the midwest would be well served with one repeater linked to a wide area/regional network and another one for strictly local use. Of course, you will have competing EMCOMM and special interest groups howling that they NEED their own repeater for whatever reason, real or imagined.

Sounds like a nightmare. How would a national coordination organization be expected to have any idea what people in every state, city, and one-horse town "need"? More to the point, why should anybody care whether a town with three hams needs four repeaters, or fourteen? Those towns are, by definition, unlikely to suffer from any of the alleged overcrowding that this coordination is meant to fix.

[kb2vxa]

As I am the god of electricity I forgive your ignorance. The cure for ignorance is education, but there just ain't no fixin' stupid. Therefore please allow me to shine down upon you and enlighten you. Very early on engineers discovered that on VHF/UHF signals travel farther for the same power with horizontal than vertical polarization, which is why TV and FM stations used horizontal antennas and receiving antennas are still horizontal. Then FM in cars became popular, so a vertical component was added, also in urban areas the ever popular TV rabbit ears end up polarized every which way, so now much simpler circular polarized transmitting antennas are used. Circular polarization has the added advantage of reducing multipath distortion BTW, especially in urban areas reducing ghost images at first with analog, now a reduced bit error rate that causes dropouts with digital.

OK, we got that far with the history lesson, (;->) so now forward to 2-way VHF/UHF communications. Since horizontal mobile antennas are large and clumsy vertical polarization is used, but you know this, also very few hams by comparison use horizontal mobile antennas. Now I ask the rhetorical question; why should everybody go vertical to satisfy those few? Also consider this, even high gain verticals can't hold a candle to horizontal beams, so why use an expensive kilowatt amp and run your electric bill sky high in the process when a 100W rig barefoot will do the same job?

The bottom line here is practicability, your idea simply isn't practical from any standpoint I can think of. Bear in mind a GOD is all knowing and infinitely wise, so no backtalk or I shall unleash the mighty bolts upon your puny antenna. I have mercy and will spare you BUT ONCE, giving you, as you rebuild time to think and repent your sin. Next time you'll sorely regret it puny human.

"Sounds like a nightmare."
It is, how can you expect all the councils in the national to communicate with each other when they don't communicate with the individuals and club trustees they coordinate? I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts (and Chief Wiggam too) they don't even know what a repeater glut they have in some areas or some of their coordination is with paper repeaters. They're about as useless as tits on a bull and the ARRL Repeater Guide shows it, that's why when I got one as a door prize at a hamfester I laughed and gave it back to them. I found a few repeater lists on line where repeaters are VERIFIED on air quite useful, sites where they're not verified are as useless as the book.

Written separately so you'll take notice; I knew a ham who "owns" a coordinated paper 6M repeater and claims he's going to sit on it and never give up the pair. I told him straight to his face if I want to put a repeater on it I dare ANYBODY to stop me. He was furious as expected but I drove the point home, I'm sure you know just what that point is. Frankly if I had money to burn I would have done it just for spite, I haven't earned my title of grumpy old bastid for nothing. I've said about all that's been needed to say, NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!

[AC6AT]

Now I ask the rhetorical question; why should everybody go vertical to satisfy those few?

Interesting question. I suggest you address it to somebody who has suggested that "everybody go vertical to satisfy those few." What I have suggested is that 2M SSB as a substitute for local FM repeaters might become popular more quickly if the people interested in such a thing used a polarization that would let them more easily talk to the people already using the repeaters (or rather the subset of that group of people that also owns multimode equipment), most of whom use existing verticals.


? Also consider this, even high gain verticals can't hold a candle to horizontal beams, so why use an expensive kilowatt amp and run your electric bill sky high in the process when a 100W rig barefoot will do the same job?

Another interesting question, and again I suggest you pose it to somebody who thinks that that would be a good idea. It certainly wouldn't be necessary for the kinds of stations or the kinds of contacts under discussion in the instant conversation about getting people to migrate from 2M FM repeaters to 2M SSB simplex; these would mostly be local.

What sort of god, I ask you, has to argue against straw men? It's almost enough to make me into one of those smug atheist types.

[K9CCH]

Paper Repeaters. Get on their frequency and watch (listen) a bunch people start having a snit.


I'm paranoid about getting on the repeaters around Houston. There's a big divide between the Salt Grass users, and the other users. And there's a few other repeaters that are used by a select few and everyone else is an outsider.

[KG4CGC]

I'm paranoid about getting on the repeaters around Houston. There's a big divide between the Salt Grass users, and the other users. And there's a few other repeaters that are used by a select few and everyone else is an outsider.

People letting human nature, if that's even correct, get the best of them. There was a little war going on here centering on one vape shop. They were the assholes and caused hate and discontent among the local vape community via subterfuge. They really thought that it would help their business and they really thought that everyone was really that dumb. That's the thing that really gets me about sociopaths. They really do believe that they are smarter than everyone else.

Long story short, that shop has a shit reputation and only a small group of loyal fanbois.

[K9CCH]

People letting human nature, if that's even correct, get the best of them. There was a little war going on here centering on one vape shop. They were the assholes and caused hate and discontent among the local vape community via subterfuge. They really thought that it would help their business and they really thought that everyone was really that dumb. That's the thing that really gets me about sociopaths. They really do believe that they are smarter than everyone else.

Long story short, that shop has a shit reputation and only a small group of loyal fanbois.


There's a certain few voices on our 2m bands around here that are louder than others. Louder as in, they have to comment on everything that everybody says. And I do mean everyone. And don't think you'll voice any opinion, thought, or view other than theirs because then you'll be stuck there for an hour listening to how wrong you are. And somewhere in there you'll probably hear about how they were wronged by some ham in 1974.