Sparkfun and Fluke have a Trademark issue. The outcome is surprising.

[K7SGJ]

Got this in the mail. I had no idea that this could be a problem for Sparkfun, but it looks like a color combo and a style can be trademarked. I wonder how this applies to other knockoff stuff that fills the internet stores?

Anyway, I was really amazed at the steps Fluke took. No wonder I have so much of their stuff.

A synopsis is here:

https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1430?utm_source=SparkFun+Customer+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ff2ed9c341-March17-21newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fa5287abaf-ff2ed9c341-60599425

[PA5COR]

Kudo's to Fluke ;)

[NQ6U]

Well done, Fluke. Wish I could afford one of those.

[kb2vxa]

This is a sound philosophy, grab the meter without a closer look and "It'll be a Fluke if it works." Neat logo eh? Now if they want to get cute "Grab the wrong one and it's SparkFun in your hand." Hey, they're as concerned about safety as I am. Last time I had spark in my hand it wasn't fun, I'm getting too old for this crap!

[W3WN]

Got this in the mail. I had no idea that this could be a problem for Sparkfun, but it looks like a color combo and a style can be trademarked. I wonder how this applies to other knockoff stuff that fills the internet stores?

Anyway, I was really amazed at the steps Fluke took. No wonder I have so much of their stuff.

A synopsis is here:

https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1430?utm_source=SparkFun+Customer+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ff2ed9c341-March17-21newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fa5287abaf-ff2ed9c341-60599425
I was following the discussion of this Over Yonder. (Dropped out when it was clear that many people didn't understand why Fluke would TM the design & color of their meters... but I digress)

This is a win-win for everyone. SparkFun is not out the cost to them of the bogus meters. Fluke gets good PR for doing more than anyone would reasonably expect them to do. And SparkFun will be a little more cautious in the future WRT buying cheap meters that resemble the top notch expensive stuff.

[N2RJ]

I don't see why Fluke is getting kudos. They're clearly engaging in damage control, after a total dick move on their part.

Ever notice store brands of stuff at your local supermarket? They look almost the same as the real thing, but you can see it's a store brand. By allowing people to trademark colors that opens the door to killing off store brands, which many people buy to save money, because they real thing (tm) costs big bucks. Same can be applied here. Not everyone wants or needs "the real thing." For many people, hobbyists especially, a cheap store brand is good enoughl

And as for Fluke's safety argument, it's totally bogus. Anyone buying a DMM or other test equipment for any "serious" use (i.e. commercial, government, military) will be buying the real thing through a procurement process that ensures they're buying the real thing, and look for other stuff such as certifications that ensure they are within spec.

[W3WN]

I don't see why Fluke is getting kudos. They're clearly engaging in damage control, after a total dick move on their part.
< snip >No.

Item the First: Fluke has a legitimate right to protect, via copyright and trademark laws, their intellectual property. And it was more than just trademarking "colors". You should try reading the original sources, not the commentary on them.
Item the Second: The manufacturer has no legitimate right to mimic Fluke's designs.
Item the Third: SparkFun either didn't do their homework, or ignored Fluke's trademark.
Item the Fourth: US Customs, on inspecting the imported items, seized the meter in question pending verification of a trademark violation, as per the law.

Now: Exactly where is the "dick" move that Fluke performed?

As far as the store brands go... are you aware that many of these "off brands" are actually provided by the same companies that provide the "name brand" items? Right down to the packaging? Look up the phrase "economy of scale" to understand why.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not you believe Fluke's "safety" argument. Their point is that they stand behind their own stuff, but not the knock-offs. And you may argue all you want that the real "serious" professionals know enough to buy the real thing; it some cases it's true, but not in all. I saw too many contractors buy the cheap stuff at Home De$pot, and then complain that it didn't hold up under real working conditions... of course it didn't, the cheap stuff is designed for the home handyman who uses his tools a few hours in the evening and a few more hours on the weekend, not the professionals who use them for work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day.

[kb2vxa]

"As far as the store brands go... are you aware that many of these "off brands" are actually provided by the same companies that provide the "name brand" items? Right down to the packaging?"

Pardon my chuckles, this is the very same smart shopper point I drove home in the coffee thread. To clarify the above statement, where food items are concerned it's not the suppliers but the food factories and packing plants.

Where tools are concerned, there's another place it pays to be a smart shopper. Skip Home Despot and others that sell cheaply made junk at discount prices of course, but Sears Craftsman is the exception to that rule. Anyone familiar knows they're quite sturdy and durable which is why they have a lifetime no questions asked replacement guarantee. IMO they're just as good as Snap On and the other expensive brands, only they don't have traveling salesmen in company vans. (;->) To make a long story short, once upon a time my partner in crime and I starting jobs as plant electricians found the maintenance shop devoid of tools, so we took the manager's company credit card to Sears, bought a couple of rollaways and stocked them with every tool we thought we'd need on the job. When the manager got the bill he called us into his office and shouted THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS???!!! Calmly I began with "What are YOU complaining about? YOU'RE not paying for it." Quickly I pointed out the tax advantage called "cost of doing business" and the tools will pay for themselves and more by the time the return comes next year, the company will have made a profit coming and going. Peace returned to the valley. (;->)

In years gone by (as an example) Hallicrafters manufactured ham and CB gear under its own name as well as several others sold at reduced prices by well known electronics outfits. Those who bought Lafayette are laughing yet, they bought a Halli at 2/3 the price. Where test meters are concerned, they were made by a number of anonymous manufacturers under license, if you bought a VTVM you bought RCA (Hazletine patent) or a VOM it was a Simpson. Then along came Japan's major manufacturers, and it was the same thing made in Yap-ann with any number of names slapped on it including American when manufacturing moved offshore but I digress.

As he has proven time and time again, RJ continually argues from a point removed from the facts, so sensible discussion and any attempt at education is pointless. Take the sound advice given to me by a psychology major some years ago; never try to make sense out of nonsense.

[W3WN]

< snip >
Where tools are concerned, there's another place it pays to be a smart shopper. Skip Home Despot and others that sell cheaply made junk at discount prices of course, but Sears Craftsman is the exception to that rule.
< snip >Ummmmmm... that's not entirely true, at least today.

Sears Craftsman today is not the Sears Craftsman of yesterday. Their "lifetime warranty" isn't what it used to be, and only pertains to certain tools. In any event... Sears (or should we say K-Mart, since they merged with Sears ) doesn't actually make anything. Everything with a Craftsman name on it is actually made by someone else... under contract, and with some minor changes to the specs.

Same thing with appliances. Sears does not make Kenmore. GE makes most Kenmore; perhaps I should say "made" as I don't know what the current contracts are. Maytag, Whirlpool, and some of the other (including the overseas) manufacturers also make Kenmore appliances for Sears. Sears gets a huge discount, since they buy in bulk and then some. (They also make a TON of money on the extended warranties they try to push on you, but that's another story).

Now, regarding the Big Box stores (Home De$pot, Lowe$, and so forth)... not all of the tools that they sell are "cheaply made junk". Some are. You do get what you pay for, overall.

However... take a good look at the brands. Most major tool manufacturers have two lines... consumer and commercial. They're made in the same factories, or to the same overall specs, but with different materials.

For example: Black & Decker, the company, owns (amongst others) the Black & Decker and DeWalt brands. The Black & Decker brand is today considered the "consumer" line, and is marketing towards the average homeowner who wants a tool handy for occasional use. The DeWalt brand is considered the "commercial" line, marketed to the professionals in the construction (etc) fields. You can go into a Big Box store, and compare two selected items, say a drill, between B&D and DW. They look the same (except colors)... but they're not. The B&D has plastic where the DW has metal. Or the B&D has a cheaper plastic, whereas the DW may have a composite or a thicker plastic. Which is why the B&D drill costs $49, and the DW drill costs $99.

Now, take both of those drills to the top of a 10 foot ladder, and drop them onto concrete. More often than not, the B&D drill will shatter or suffer catastrophic failure; the DW drill may have a dent or ding or scuff, but it will continue to work. That's where the difference in price comes in. (Better yet, get a B&D rep to do this demo, why should you pay for a drills that are about to be broken?)

In terms of the house brands, at least when it comes to tools... Home De$pot's consumer line is Ryobi; their commercial line Ridgid (yeah, it pronounced "Rigid", the deliberate misspelling is for Trademark or Copyright purposes). If you're going to buy the house brand, trust me... buy Ridgid. Ryobi is cheap; it's not quite junk, but it won't hold up under heavy duty use. Ridgid will. Same thing; both lines are made in the same (overseas) factories, same molds, but different materials. Ryobi's are made cheap, to be sold cheap, and by design are expected to fail after a few years use. Ridgid's cost more, are made better, and are expected to last. You get what you pay for.

Home De$pot used to have a very liberal return policy (and some store managers still do). One of the reasons for the change? Too many working contractors would by the Ryobi tools, use them on a job site, and then return them for replacement or their money back... because the tool failed under commercial working conditions. OF COURSE IT DID, they're not designed to be used 10 to 12 hours a day on a job site. But these clowns figured out that Ryobi (or B&D or other "consumer" brands) tools would last just long enough, so that by doing so, they got a "free" rental. And never mind that in the fine print of the tool's warranty, it specifically states that commercial use of a consumer-brand product voided the warranty... they did it anyway, and too many stores took them back anyway...

[kb2vxa]

Thanks for pointing that out, not surprising everything went downhill since Sears merged with Krap Mart. That's what I get for doing a Jethro Tull, Living In The Past.

I really don't intend to climb to the top of a 10ft ladder with only 2ft to the ceiling to drop my cheap plastic B&D drill I almost never use because granddad's metal Sears doesn't make grinding noises. Besides, then the guy downstairs would come up and drill more holes in my head than I already have. Yeah, I know B&W is a POS, one look at it tells the story but I got it for the best price ever... nothing.

You reminded me of my first home brew pirate radio SW transmitter when I had no idea about antenna resonance and SWR. I used a Rat Shack Gold Line (with gold pins, WOW) sweep tube final with a lifetime no cost replacement guarantee, the plate glowed and it crapped out in about a month. Lifetime guarantee, hmmm. It took a while, but eventually the manager and only salesman asked me "You're not using it as a horizontal output tube now ARE you?" Hey, how was I supposed to know he was a CBer?

[n6hcm]

I don't see why Fluke is getting kudos. They're clearly engaging in damage control, after a total dick move on their part.

I'm not seeing the "dick move" either. US Customs did their job, and Fluke responded by covering Sparkfun's loss and then some. Sparkfun should have known better, but it seems clear that nobody in their right mind would have confused a $15 product for a Fluke original.

So where did Fluke screw up? They didn't have to do anything here, and they stepped up to make good on Sparkfun's loss.

[N2RJ]

I'm not seeing the "dick move" either. US Customs did their job, and Fluke responded by covering Sparkfun's loss and then some. Sparkfun should have known better, but it seems clear that nobody in their right mind would have confused a $15 product for a Fluke original.

So where did Fluke screw up? They didn't have to do anything here, and they stepped up to make good on Sparkfun's loss.

Customs didn't just start enforcing this trademark all by itself. Fluke notified them.

But beyond that, the fundamental issue here is - since when did it become OK to trademark beyond just the mark? They're pretty much almost trademarking colors.

Here's the backstory:
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428

[WØTKX]

http://www.edwardarms.com/wp-content/gallery/cerakote-glock-slide-colors/gslide-corvette-yellow.jpg

[kb2vxa]

A thread, much like a bridge just isn't complete without a troll.

[WØTKX]

Nah, just a fluke.

[W3WN]

Customs didn't just start enforcing this trademark all by itself. Fluke notified them.

But beyond that, the fundamental issue here is - since when did it become OK to trademark beyond just the mark? They're pretty much almost trademarking colors.

Here's the backstory:
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428 Fluke holds a trademark for the overall design of the meters, including but not limited to distinctive colors in specific places. You may not like it, but that's the trademark law -- it says that they can do it.

Check.

Fluke, presumably for the sake of discussion, finds out that someone is importing meters that appear to infringe on their trademarks.

Check.

Customs, upon proper notification from the legal owner of the trademark, inspects the imported merchandise and determines that it's in legal violation of the trademark.

Check.

So what's the "dick" move here, Ryan? That Fluke protected their trademark?

I read the "backstory". I did some other reading about this as well.

IMHO, what I think happened is that SparkFun, in searching for items to sell, came across these meters, or was contacted by the manufacturer in China, and worked out a deal to sell them. I will be willing to give SparkFun the benefit of the doubt that they didn't realize that the Fluke trademarks were being infringed on. This time. That said, the SparkFun people failed to do their due diligence. And they got burned on it.

The manufacturer in China? IMHO, they knew damn well that they infringed on Fluke's TM, and I'd wager that they didn't care. Not their problem. They got their money from SparkFun. Tough noogies.

Fluke went above and beyond the strict call of duty by donating items to SparkFun to cover their losses. They didn't have to. Clearly SOMEONE at Fluke saw not only a good PR move, but understood that SparkFun got caught in the middle on this.

And yet, Ryan, you cast aspersions on Fluke? You try to portray them as the villain in this? For what? For exercising their legal rights?

Shame on you.

[kb2vxa]

It's not unusual RJ, to to post without a clue
It's not unusual to have SparkFun with Fluke, or anyone
But when I see you hanging about without a clue
It's not unusual to see eyes roll,
Are you that dumb, or just a troll?

[n6hcm]

The manufacturer in China? IMHO, they knew damn well that they infringed on Fluke's TM, and I'd wager that they didn't care. Not their problem. They got their money from SparkFun. Tough noogies.

and, honestly, this part happens often enough that the chinese government ought do something about it, but they won't ... because money.if any other country manufactured enough counterfeits (of any sort, really) that china does they'd be subject to sanctions from the world trade organization, ...

[KC2UGV]

Customs didn't just start enforcing this trademark all by itself. Fluke notified them.

But beyond that, the fundamental issue here is - since when did it become OK to trademark beyond just the mark? They're pretty much almost trademarking colors.

Here's the backstory:
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428


Don't you just love the free and open market? I mean, small government and all should let businesses trademark things like, "Fair and Balanced", or a color scheme... amirite?


http://www.edwardarms.com/wp-content/gallery/cerakote-glock-slide-colors/gslide-corvette-yellow.jpg

There's no way we can regulate that. lol