Station, Please Identify

[W3WN]

So, a couple of weeks ago, word goes around that the club's lightly used 440 machine has had some, ah, interesting stations pop up on it. Usually during the working day, when most of us are (surprisingly enough) at work.

Mobile 1 calling Mobile 2, or vice versa, asking for directions, or instructions about getting some jobs done.

A few of us have made it a point to monitor the machine during the day. (That UV-5R is GREAT for just that purpose, now that I have a good antenna on it)

Noticed two calls this morning. Neither one with a ham call, or even a "tactical" call. More like "Joe, you there?" (Obviously, way too short for DF'ing)

So, I picked up the HT and asked "Station calling, please identify, I didn't catch the call. This is W3WN"

Silence.

Any suggestions on how to proceed? Besides KB3ERQ and I having a lunch time chat or two...

[N2NH]

Dunno what the FCC Enforcement Bureau does these days, but a recording with the times and freqs attached should cure the problem.

Otherwise, a DF unit on continuously would make it easier. Did that at a machine in Staten Island that I belonged to and nailed 2.

[W3WN]

Dunno what the FCC Enforcement Bureau does these days, but a recording with the times and freqs attached should cure the problem.

Otherwise, a DF unit on continuously would make it easier. Did that at a machine in Staten Island that I belonged to and nailed 2.Don't know what we're dealing with yet, so that's hard to say.

Most of the transmissions have been both short and few & far between. Nothing malicious, just inappropriate for the Amateur Service.

[WØTKX]

It's difficult to find 'em if they don't get on often. So maybe a "conversational sting" that gets 'em talking? Then it's time for some fox hunting fun. There is also radio "fingerprint" method that works well for FM.

Here is an interesting doppler "kit" for $400. http://www.kn2c.us/

[W3WN]

To be honest, before spending that $400, I'd just as soon reprogram the PL on the machine.

And in the long term, it may not matter. You see, now that our primary 2 meter repeater is back in the South Hills region (south of the city), we have a coverage gap for Downtown Pittsburgh, parts of the North Shore and North Side, and the East (Oakland & Squirrel Hill neighborhoods, Wilkinsburg, etc.) It has to do with the terrain -- the big hill of dirt called Mt. Washington blocks a lot of the signal.

With the 440 machine over on the WPGH-TV 53 site, just north of Downtown, we have all that coverage and more.

I'm going to propose, in the next club newsletter, since we've moved 955 back to our "primary" area (based on where most of our members actually live), our next repeater-related project should be a permanent link between the two machines. A lot of club members work in Downtown, North Side, and Oakland. So this makes a lot of sense.

[WØTKX]

Ham buddies do the aircraft beacon and Ham balloon hunts with Doppler setups, and I have played with 'em. Fascinating.

[kb2vxa]

Could be improperly programmed GMRS radios, aside from a few "color dot" VHF channels they operate close enough to our 70cM band to make it possible. Since "station please identify" shuts them up they could be hearing your repeater input transmissions, my guess is they're operating simplex on it or somebody has mistaken a ham repeater pair for a GMRS pair. I'll go with their ignorance first before jumping through FCC hoops and you know we're at the bottom of their priorities list or not even on it. I'd find out where they're located first and have a sit down with the boss, no sense jumping the gun when friendly discussion could fix the problem.

When I lived up north in Elizabeth I heard some "wharf rats" on 2M FM simplex in the weak signal part of the band, they weren't bothering anybody and went away eventually. Oh, wharf rats are what truckers call those who move intermodal shipping containers around at a seaport. I lived close enough to Port Newark/Elizabeth where truck, rail and container ships come together to hear them.

[W2NAP]

people aint going to like what I say here. but this is what we get with these radios from china. a shit load of bootleggers.

what can be done? nothing pandora's box is opened. enjoy the bootleggers. only time something will get done about the bootleggers with china radios is when they start in on the ps bands. (like the one local here who keeps playing on the APD freqs here)

and before someone says "its not cause of the china radios" simple fact it is. notice since these damn things have shown up so cheap the rate of bootleggers and people fucking with police,fire,ems has increased. seems like about once a week now I read where some pd or fd is getting fucked with. or some hams are mad at hearing the damn whirligiger on the repeater.

[WØTKX]

Radios don't bootleg, people do. :shifty: :spin:

[KJ3N]

Radios don't bootleg, people do. :shifty: :spin:

I'm going to de-escalate the situation by flashing my rubber duck antenna... :-P

[NQ6U]

Radios don't bootleg, people do. :shifty: :spin:

They can have my Chinese HT when they pry it from my cheap, dead hand.

[NY4Q]

I think by just monitoring the repeater more and being there to ask for an ID will be enough to send them on their way. No need to call in a SWAT team (yet). haha

[K7SGJ]

They can have my Chinese HT when they pry it from my cheap, dead hand.

You have made several posts recently, about prying something of some kind, from your cold, dead hands. In order to hold that much stuff, you must have big hands.

It's like Grandma always said "big hands....................................big gloves".

[W3WN]

people aint going to like what I say here. but this is what we get with these radios from china. a shit load of bootleggers.

what can be done? nothing pandora's box is opened. enjoy the bootleggers. only time something will get done about the bootleggers with china radios is when they start in on the ps bands. (like the one local here who keeps playing on the APD freqs here)

and before someone says "its not cause of the china radios" simple fact it is. notice since these damn things have shown up so cheap the rate of bootleggers and people fucking with police,fire,ems has increased. seems like about once a week now I read where some pd or fd is getting fucked with. or some hams are mad at hearing the damn whirligiger on the repeater.Why would anyone get upset? It's the simple truth.

So long as there is no legal requirement in the US to have a license prior to purchasing a radio, there's nothing illegal about selling the radios to unlicensed persons, nor is there anything illegal about buying them. Immoral? Unethical? Yup... but not illegal. Heck, if you refuse to sell a radio to someone, and they get mad enough, they'll charge you with discrimination or some other made-up crime... and you'll have no legal leg to stand on.

This isn't anything new. I was dealing with this when I sold radios at Westech Electronics, in the mid-80's.

Sooner or later, some of these radios will fall into the hands of miscreants who think it's a real hoot to jam or harass the police or other public safety users. Again, it's nothing new, it has happened before, it is happening now, and it will happen again. WE understand that these units are toys. Others don't think so... they either don't know or don't care.

But, to be clear... no, it's not because these radios are imported from China (or anywhere else) that it's happening. That just means it's MORE likely to happen because the radios are cheaper.

Bottom line is, if an a$$hat wants to be an a$$hat on the air, nothing will stop him (or her). It's just a question of how easy it might be. That doesn't change them from being an a$$hat in the first place though.

[kb2vxa]

I (don't) hate to be the one to pin your bubble, but I personally witnessed several cases of bootleggers alone and in groups purposefully jamming ham and PS repeaters long before cheap Chinese radios came down the pike, they all got busted. Now what do you have to say about that? Carry on. As a footnote; in one case in Queens, NY the FCC dragged its feet as usual so before they caught up to them the NYPD hung "Hitler" and his mob up by the short hairs.

[W2NAP]

Why would anyone get upset? It's the simple truth.

So long as there is no legal requirement in the US to have a license prior to purchasing a radio, there's nothing illegal about selling the radios to unlicensed persons, nor is there anything illegal about buying them. Immoral? Unethical? Yup... but not illegal. Heck, if you refuse to sell a radio to someone, and they get mad enough, they'll charge you with discrimination or some other made-up crime... and you'll have no legal leg to stand on.

This isn't anything new. I was dealing with this when I sold radios at Westech Electronics, in the mid-80's.

Sooner or later, some of these radios will fall into the hands of miscreants who think it's a real hoot to jam or harass the police or other public safety users. Again, it's nothing new, it has happened before, it is happening now, and it will happen again. WE understand that these units are toys. Others don't think so... they either don't know or don't care.

But, to be clear... no, it's not because these radios are imported from China (or anywhere else) that it's happening. That just means it's MORE likely to happen because the radios are cheaper.

Bottom line is, if an a$$hat wants to be an a$$hat on the air, nothing will stop him (or her). It's just a question of how easy it might be. That doesn't change them from being an a$$hat in the first place though.

Thats the problem, its not a matter of sooner or later, its going on now. most recent big story has been out of Conn. someone calling in bunk fire calls, and canceling fire runs. I have heard my local PD getting messed with, via the damn baofeng whirligiger lucky to a point the idiot doing it is to stupid to do splits or dpl, but yet all the scanner listeners can hear it. also the local EMA has had bootleggers on the repeater they have.



I (don't) hate to be the one to pin your bubble, but I personally witnessed several cases of bootleggers alone and in groups purposefully jamming ham and PS repeaters long before cheap Chinese radios came down the pike, they all got busted. Now what do you have to say about that? Carry on. As a footnote; in one case in Queens, NY the FCC dragged its feet as usual so before they caught up to them the NYPD hung "Hitler" and his mob up by the short hairs.

Did bootleggers on PS feqs happen before the cheap china crap? yes just not in the amount that is going on now. Quite honestly I have listened to local PD here and have NEVER heard any crap until the baofeng could be bought for $30 now its at least once a week.

What makes it worse is the fact assholes trying to make a buck sell the damn things on amazon listed as "kids toy" and "cb radio", shit might as well just have wal-mar.... er china-mart sell them right in the store.

[WØTKX]

If they 'eff with the ham bands it's gonna get ignored, mostly. If they 'eff with public safety and law enforcement, they'll reap rewards.

Quietly letting the authorities (FCC and local law) that they are out there with these toys messing with amateur frequencies may raise an awareness, as it's not just a simple FRS/GMRS or even CB rig.

These radios can (and will be) used on frequencies besides "ours". OTH, it's nice to have them available at these great prices... for proper users. So, maybe noticing and finding interlopers on the ham bands BEFORE they goof on more important frequencies might bring the premise of enforcement back into the FCC spotlight.

VHF/UHF is more important spectrum for most anyway. A lot of HF bootlegging goes on, and nobody cares very much anymore, as long as it's not on frequencies anybody really cares about.

Catch-22 Yossarian. It's the people, not the radios.

[kb2vxa]

Three interesting points here, first you say incidences of jamming have increased since the introduction of cheap radios. OK, at Burger King (;->) have it your way. Lets just say I haven't noticed having been out of Amateur radio since I moved and unbeknown to me at the time I ended up without antennas and am out of the loop except for what I'm told. That is except for what's being discussed here hams are bemoaning a dwindling interest in the service and sharp decline in repeater use. OK, if what's left is being jammed with higher frequency (sic) I'll give you that because having no personal experience I can't say one way or the other. That's why I never said you're wrong, just that when I was active had noticed and been involved in quite a few such situations, all of which went in our favor.

As far as jamming PS frequencies go, that's a horse of a different color. Having a scanner, the range of which incidentally has been crippled by said lack of antennas, I've heard of only one instance of jamming, ironically of a local service I monitor but never heard it. Some kid was jamming the Lakewood, NJ ambulance with his father's radio unknown to him and got caught. As one may expect, the news article made no mention what kind of radio it was so it could have been just about anything, ham (cheap Chinese or other), bubble pack POS, anything that can be used as a "scanner" with transmit capability. Why I never heard it I have no idea but my best guess is with so many EMS, ambulance and hospital frequencies it was most likely one I don't monitor.

One thing worth mentioning, logically it has and does vary from area to area. Up north there are far more Amateur and PS frequencies in use, as you might guess crime is higher. I mentioned Queens, NY and wasn't directly involved with the jamming but since I used a repeater there from my home in North Jersey I heard it. Once I was at a control operator/technician's QTH on other business and we had a discussion about it. That's how I found out the same punks were jamming the NYPD, also they were more than jammers, they assaulted a cub member when he was driving his taxi and others. That made it all the more imperative they be stopped, as I said the NYPD nabbed them, I hope they had a good time at Riker's. Another case was a repeater on Staten Island I used, I got voluntarily "fingerprinted" by a bit of hardware installed on the repeater which incidentally is a very useful detective's tool. It stands to reason, cheap Chinese radios or no, things are always worse in the NY metro area, the city never sleeps so it craps 24/7.

Yes it is people, not the radios. How many times have we heard something similar about gun control pro and con? Now we're hearing stuff about prying radios out of cold, crusty, decaying hands, obviously Bender and I aren't the only ones who steal things. I see a trend starting here and not all of it is more jamming, so bite my shiny metal antenna... if I had one.

VHF/UHF IS more important to some, users, not the FCC who consider spectrum as spectrum and nothing else. The spectrum war is fought between users, Amateur vs. commercial of several kinds with money as the lobbying tool with the FCC and us caught in the crossfire. Congress funds the FCC and Congress being lobbied it comes down to as if you don't know, money talks and Amateur BS walks. Being low man on the totem pole of FCC priorities doesn't help either. As far as bootleggers, that is pirate radio getting caught HF is a priority, broadcast, commercial and other priority users are of primary concern as usual. Since the FCC started cracking down some years ago, the pirates on 40M just below 7MHz in particular have discontinued broadcasting and make fairly short transmissions often commenting to each other when they're not putting on a show. Many others including Europeans have migrated to legal internet "radio" streaming their broadcasts. Maybe you know that but this is for those who aren't followers of the news of and listeners to pirate radio. This alone can go on forever so I'll stop here... well, JUST a bit later.

Oh life, it's bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no, I've said too much
I've said enough

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no, I've said too much
I haven't said enough

[N8YX]

How easy is it to reprogram the PL tones in the cheap radios? Answer that and I'll elaborate on my next thought:

HUMINT.

Put some ears on the ground (so to say), do that which confounds them then listen around the VHF/UHF spectrum for the results being discussed - along with their purported "next moves".

This may gain you some insight as to who the individuals are.

[n2ize]

people aint going to like what I say here. but this is what we get with these radios from china. a shit load of bootleggers.

what can be done? nothing pandora's box is opened. enjoy the bootleggers. only time something will get done about the bootleggers with china radios is when they start in on the ps bands. (like the one local here who keeps playing on the APD freqs here)

and before someone says "its not cause of the china radios" simple fact it is. notice since these damn things have shown up so cheap the rate of bootleggers and people fucking with police,fire,ems has increased. seems like about once a week now I read where some pd or fd is getting fucked with. or some hams are mad at hearing the damn whirligiger on the repeater.

I was pretty shocked at the prices some of those radios are selling for. On one side it is good to have an el-cheapo lying around. If it gets lost, stolen, etc. its not a huge loss. On the downside you are correct. When it's selling on ebay or Amazon for 30 bucks people are more likely to buy them, even if not to jam just to bootleg. Most of the ads don;t even say, "proper license required for operation". So some people might buy them and just use them like FRS radios, never even knowing they are in violation of the law , never even realizing they are booting.

[n2ize]

Don't most public service radios have a feature such that if the radio is lost or stolen they can just "brick" the thing ? Of course that doesn't help wen the jammer is using another type of radio that doesn't respond to the command to brick itself.

[W3WN]

How easy is it to reprogram the PL tones in the cheap radios? Answer that and I'll elaborate on my next thought:
< snip >Via the menu or by the instruction book, if you have it? Pain in the tuchus.

However, using CHIRP... download the image to computer memory, upload a CSV file with the new memory settings (including PL), upload the new image to the radio. 30 seconds? If that.

[KC9SQR]

Via the menu or by the instruction book, if you have it? Pain in the tuchus.

However, using CHIRP... download the image to computer memory, upload a CSV file with the new memory settings (including PL), upload the new image to the radio. 30 seconds? If that.

Yeah, basically the exact same process as my FT-8800R which cost more than 10x the amount of those Baofengs... ;)
Or MANY MANY commercial radios, plug in the cable, enter the info, upload, done....

[kb2vxa]

Re N8YX:
"Put some ears on the ground (so to say), do that which confounds them then listen around the VHF/UHF spectrum for the results being discussed - along with their purported "next moves". This may gain you some insight as to who the individuals are."

Previously I mentioned being voluntarily "fingerprinted" like many others on that repeater on Staten Island, NY. I don't know if the board or software is still available, but anyway, it takes the "fingerprint" of radios it hears, that is the unique individual characteristics of the signal it transmits. Like detective matching human fingerprints, those of offending and unidentified transmitters heard on the repeater can be matched with those on other repeaters and simplex where the same stations legally operate and identify. Once a match and/or matches are made the offender(s) are positively identified. The "fingerprints" along with matching recordings of those stations may be submitted to the FCC as evidence in a complaint. It's hard to get better than that!

Re N2IZE:
"Don't most public service radios have a feature such that if the radio is lost or stolen they can just "brick" the thing ?"

Positively! I don't know about most, but many have this feature. That way when a lost or stolen radio transmitting unit ID is operating, a signal is transmitted from the base that disables that particular radio's transmit. Of course it also works on any base, mobile or portable that has this feature making it particularly useful for knocking unauthorized radios out of the system and any others it's used on. If it's from another agency, tough tities, surely the other system folks will know how one of their radios got bricked, user BUSTED.

[N2ADV]

Use the repeaters. Those folks will move on if there are "legal" stations on. If not and they start jamming lots easier to DF jammers than intermittent users :)

[KG4NEL]

I'm going to de-escalate the situation by flashing my rubber duck antenna... :-P

When all else fails...

That's like a triple-entendre :twisted:

[kb2vxa]

When all else fails triple nitrate of glycerin is the solution.