Metro-North Derailment. At least 4 Dead, 68 Injured.

[N2NH]

So far it seems that the train took the sharp curve at Spuyten Duyvil too fast. Every car including the engine left the rails. 3 of the dead were ejected from the train. Conflicting reports say all are accounted for, others that some may be trapped under the cars. Story and pictures in link.

Metro North Derailment. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-bound-metro-north-passenger-train-derails-bronx-article-1.1533963)

[PA5COR]

Saw it onthe news here, brakes might have failed, same spot another accident took place recently....

[N8YX]

Sucks. Prayers and thoughts for all involved.

Our last area derailment was in '87, on the mainline near my house. This was back in the double-tracked/shared right-of-way days. The stretch from about a mile north to ten miles south is all single-tracked and is arguably one of the best maintained stretches which CSX owns.

The abandoned, now-removed partner trackage might have been a different matter. Unless you were a railroad or a PPG employee it was hard to get to much of it back then.

[N2NH]

The MTA has had 7 derailments since the year started. 3 on Metro-North (1 was CSX's fault), 2 on the LIRR, and 2 on the Subways. In fact, the F train derailed at W. 4th St. Friday night for #6.

This BTW was the line I took when I moved here. But with all the derailments this year, something's not right.

[n2ize]

They should have no problem negotiating that curve pretty fast and without derailment. I wonder if using an engine as a pusher is the best of ideas. Wonder if this might not have happened if they were pulling. Then again railroads run engines as pushers all the time without problems. In any event the NTSB has the black box so we should hear something soon.

[kb2vxa]

IT IS GOGIRA! Seriously, the MTA has had plenty of bad luck lately and the same can be said about several major railroads around the country. Unlike the recent tragedy in Spain where speed was also a factor I tend to believe the engineer saying it was mechanical failure. Being naturally curious and recognizing the GE P32AC-DM locomotive I did a little homework. Metro North runs these dual power locomotives on third rail power when entering the city because Diesel is banned in Grand Central Terminal and there's something about those trains I just found out, they use an electropneumatic braking system. A higher performing EP brake has a train pipe delivering air to all the reservoirs on the train, with the brakes controlled electrically with a 3-wire control circuit.

In a conventional Westinghouse air brake system a compressor in the locomotive charges the train pipe which in turn charges an air reservoir on each car with a triple valve controlling the brakes themselves. A lowering or loss of pipe pressure causes the valve to apply air from the reservoir to the brake cylinders thus applying the brakes. Pipe pressure is controlled from the locomotive so it is said that a (number) pound application is made for whatever the braking requirement is and a complete loss of pressure results in an emergency application, the engineer dumped air or put it in the hole. The safety feature of this system is should a connecting hose separate or another fault result in a loss of pressure the brakes go into full emergency.

I don't know just how an electropneumatic system operates but my best guess is there was a failure of electrical control, possibly a connector separated. Since the failure occurred on the last leg of the journey it must have come as quite a surprise to the engineer when he tried to apply brakes and nothing happened. In any case the "black box" will tell the story, I for one am not quick to blame human error.

[KG4NEL]

Last one near me:

http://i.usatoday.net/news/gallery/2010/n100513_day/07n100513-pg-horizontal.jpg

Train vs. low-boy trailer. Driver jumped to safety as soon as he heard the whistle and knew the trailer was bottomed out.

[KK4AMI]

IT IS GOGIRA! Seriously, the MTA has had plenty of bad luck lately and the same can be said about several major railroads around the country. Unlike the recent tragedy in Spain where speed was also a factor I tend to believe the engineer saying it was mechanical failure. Being naturally curious and recognizing the GE P32AC-DM locomotive I did a little homework. Metro North runs these dual power locomotives on third rail power when entering the city because Diesel is banned in Grand Central Terminal and there's something about those trains I just found out, they use an electropneumatic braking system. A higher performing EP brake has a train pipe delivering air to all the reservoirs on the train, with the brakes controlled electrically with a 3-wire control circuit.

In a conventional Westinghouse air brake system a compressor in the locomotive charges the train pipe which in turn charges an air reservoir on each car with a triple valve controlling the brakes themselves. A lowering or loss of pipe pressure causes the valve to apply air from the reservoir to the brake cylinders thus applying the brakes. Pipe pressure is controlled from the locomotive so it is said that a (number) pound application is made for whatever the braking requirement is and a complete loss of pressure results in an emergency application, the engineer dumped air or put it in the hole. The safety feature of this system is should a connecting hose separate or another fault result in a loss of pressure the brakes go into full emergency.

I don't know just how an electropneumatic system operates but my best guess is there was a failure of electrical control, possibly a connector separated. Since the failure occurred on the last leg of the journey it must have come as quite a surprise to the engineer when he tried to apply brakes and nothing happened. In any case the "black box" will tell the story, I for one am not quick to blame human error.


Your first possibility I completely understand. Your description of the second possibility went completely over my head. I'll get back to you after about three days of Googling and studying, or maybe I'll just wait for the accident report :headscratch:

[kb2vxa]

That wasn't NCDoT actually, it was 1792 City of Raleigh assisting Amtrak on the way to Florida which appeared to be fairly regularly. That was at Mebane in 2010 when it got punched in the nose and the trailer caught fire. What you can't see from that angle is it went off the rails and tore up the ground between them and the hedgerow.

"Your first possibility I completely understand."
I don't see how, that angry lizard didn't eat any trains when he/she evolved into another species and attacked New York. (;->) Another thing I don't understand is why you don't understand, I thought I was clear enough. You can always ask but I don't understand the mechanics of the electrically controlled system if that's what you're talking about. Perhaps this will help: http://www.railway-technical.com/ep-brakes.shtml

[NQ6U]

Current word seems to be that the train was traveling too fast even before it hit the curve that derailed it—82 MPH in an area where the speed limit is 70 MPH. From the NYT article:


[...] the train’s data recorders, which revealed the speed, also indicated that the pressure on the throttle did not drop to zero until six seconds before the derailment.

Full article here (www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/nyregion/metro-north-train-accident-bronx.html?hpw&rref=nyregion&_r=0).

[N8YX]

I wonder if using an engine as a pusher is the best of ideas. Wonder if this might not have happened if they were pulling. Then again railroads run engines as pushers all the time without problems.

Damn the pusher, man...

[n2ize]

Current word seems to be that the train was traveling too fast even before it hit the curve that derailed it—82 MPH in an area where the speed limit is 70 MPH. From the NYT article:
[...] the train’s data recorders, which revealed the speed, also indicated that the pressure on the throttle did not drop to zero until six seconds before the derailment.

Full article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/nyregion/metro-north-train-accident-bronx.html?hpw&rref=nyregion&_r=0).

Starting to sound more and more like a recreation of Casey Jones. He was also driving too fast. Good thing I don't drive trains for a living. I'd be drunk and I'd be driving. I am not trying to say anything improper. This was truly a tragedy and lets hope it can be prevented from happening again.

[kb2vxa]

"But the train’s data recorders, which revealed the speed, also indicated that the pressure on the throttle did not drop to zero until six seconds before the derailment."

That doesn't say a whole heck of a lot, I don't know of a locomotive that requires pressure on the throttle to apply power or act as a "dead man". That's applied in numerically marked "notches" which are steps in the lever's travel and the handle locks into position at each notch. I'm thinking of the dead man that takes several forms, a system that shuts off power and puts the brakes in full emergency if the engineer dies or is otherwise unable to control the train. I've not seen it incorporated into the throttle but I have seen it as a function of the brake stand, a pedal on the footplate (cab floor) and a button on the control panel called an acknowledger the engineer has to press when a timed vigilance alarm sounds if none of the controls have been operated, if he fails to do so after a fixed time power is removed and a penalty brake application is applied.

Since I'm unfamiliar with the operation of a P32AC-DM the dead man could be a function of the throttle, if that's the case... Houston, we have a problem.

[n2ize]

"But the train’s data recorders, which revealed the speed, also indicated that the pressure on the throttle did not drop to zero until six seconds before the derailment."

That doesn't say a whole heck of a lot, I don't know of a locomotive that requires pressure on the throttle to apply power or act as a "dead man". That's applied in numerically marked "notches" which are steps in the lever's travel and the handle locks into position at each notch. I'm thinking of the dead man that takes several forms, a system that shuts off power and puts the brakes in full emergency if the engineer dies or is otherwise unable to control the train. I've not seen it incorporated into the throttle but I have seen it as a function of the brake stand, a pedal on the footplate (cab floor) and a button on the control panel called an acknowledger the engineer has to press when a timed vigilance alarm sounds if none of the controls have been operated, if he fails to do so after a fixed time power is removed and a penalty brake application is applied.

Since I'm unfamiliar with the operation of a P32AC-DM the dead man could be a function of the throttle, if that's the case... Houston, we have a problem.

You now know why they call the NTSB

Numbskull Twobit Shitbrained Bums... You can't investigate and determine what caused a rail disaster.A "Black Box" full of BS and the NTSB artist will convince the mindless sheeple that they really figured something out. Newton, Einstein, Klein, and Schroedinger must facepalm every time they hear modern science speak.

[NQ6U]

Never mind, didn't read the article thoroughly.

[W7XF]

82 MPH coming into a 30 MPH curve....I wouldn't do that, even on a Hayabusa with race rubber on!!

[W9JEF]

So far it seems that the train took the sharp curve at Spuyten Duyvil too fast. Every car including the engine left the rails. 3 of the dead were ejected from the train. Conflicting reports say all are accounted for, others that some may be trapped under the cars. Story and pictures in link.

Metro North Derailment. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-bound-metro-north-passenger-train-derails-bronx-article-1.1533963)

Hard to believe that automated speed control at curves and other dangerous passages wasn't put into use a long time ago.

[W9JEF]

82 MPH coming into a 30 MPH curve....I wouldn't do that, even on a Hayabusa with race rubber on!!

Not that I'm publicly affirming my heterosexuality, but where can one purchase a "race rubber?" ;)

[N8YX]

Hard to believe that automated speed control at curves and other dangerous passages wasn't put into use a long time ago.

Or that the railroads would maintain their equipment so that feature would actually work when needed.

[W7XF]

Not that I'm publicly affirming my heterosexuality, but where can one purchase a "race rubber?" ;)

Race rubber = racing tires.

[KK4AMI]

That wasn't NCDoT actually, it was 1792 City of Raleigh assisting Amtrak on the way to Florida which appeared to be fairly regularly. That was at Mebane in 2010 when it got punched in the nose and the trailer caught fire. What you can't see from that angle is it went off the rails and tore up the ground between them and the hedgerow.

"Your first possibility I completely understand."
I don't see how, that angry lizard didn't eat any trains when he/she evolved into another species and attacked New York. (;->) Another thing I don't understand is why you don't understand, I thought I was clear enough. You can always ask but I don't understand the mechanics of the electrically controlled system if that's what you're talking about. Perhaps this will help: http://www.railway-technical.com/ep-brakes.shtml


OK, thanks for the reference. I found the Brake Operators Manual for that Locomotive. Seems to have enough complexity and redundancy to prevent failures.

http://www.nyab.com/media/nyab_1/documents_1/technical/instructionpamphletsip/ip_189.pdf

[W9JEF]

Race rubber = racing tires.


I KNEW that. :)

When I was in high school (back in the 50's) one of the teachers

would use the word "rubber" in reference to an eraser.

She never did figure out why we were all laughing. :)

[NQ6U]

That doesn't say a whole heck of a lot, I don't know of a locomotive that requires pressure on the throttle to apply power or act as a "dead man".

I think what that statement implies is that the air pressure in the throttle circuit, which is pneumatically controlled, hadn't dropped.

[W9JEF]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1534060.1385916725!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image-1-1534060.jpg

Is that locomotive diesel electric? The engineer said he tried to use the brakes but they failed.

What about regenerative braking?

[N2NH]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1534060.1385916725!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image-1-1534060.jpg

Is that locomotive diesel electric? The engineer said he tried to use the brakes but they failed.

What about regenerative braking?

The locomotive is both a Diesel-Electric and Electric. It can run off of the third rail, under-running or over-running, Metro-North and the LIRR have two different systems. In any case, coming up to the curve at 82MPH is over the 70MPH limit in itself. Now sometimes, just sometimes, it wouldn't hurt to begin braking a bit earlier to have some fudge factor. Either have some time to figure out to pull the emergency and not be on a curve, or soil your underwear.

[kb2vxa]

Yes, that's a Diesel-electric locomotive with an extra added attraction, the ability to operate from third rail current for 10 minutes using retractable collector shoes and can change over on the fly. Why 10 minutes I have no idea. In any case it uses an inverter driven by the DC generator or the collector shoes to produce variable frequency, voltage and current to the traction motors. AC traction is much more precise and energy efficient than DC. Braking is dynamic, regenerative and elecropneumatic. There is a difference between the first two, dynamic uses the traction motors as generators sending current to a resistor bank and regenerative sends it back to the source of electricity thus saving energy rather than dissipating it as heat. Don't ask, I have no idea how it's done with AC traction motors.

"I found the Brake Operators Manual for that Locomotive."
Not quite, it's for a more complex system used on freight trains, for one thing passenger trains don't have an end of train device (EOT or FRED) which among other things monitors brake pipe pressure and sends it to the locomotive via low power radiotelemetry. As an aside, railfans and photographers often monitor the frequency to hear when a train is in the area.
"Seems to have enough complexity and redundancy to prevent failures."
Far more complex than that used on passenger trains as being MUCH shorter they don't need all the modules spaced along the train.

"I think what that statement implies is that the air pressure in the throttle circuit, which is pneumatically controlled, hadn't dropped."
Could be, frankly I don't know how any given throttle control operates. I never was a foamer (fanatic who generally gets in the way), I just like trains.

Earlier someone made an Easy Rider comment about push-pulls in push mode which brought a couple of things to mind. When pulling, especially a locomotive with a nose provides some protection as that wrecked NCDoT picture clearly shows. Pushing is another story, in a control car the cab is in a vestibule so it's right up front entirely unprotected so in a severe crash the engineer is the first one to get it. In addition it's much lighter than the locomotive so if it runs over something big enough on the rail it's far more likely to go over. In the case of this derailment pushing wasn't a factor, having far greater mass the centrifugal forz (a Zappa tune, hi) would have flung the locomotive off the track harder so IMO it probably would have ended up in the river maybe taking some cars with it.

Then there is Fan Nirvana, the cab ride. Once upon a time late at night I rode in the cabin in a control car where the view is much better and remember I said it's right up front with nothing past the windows but air. Going over the Moodna Viaduct was spooky to put it mildly, with nothing but black beyond the headlight or on either side and nothing but DOWN it was like a ride into the Stygian black... wwwWWWOOOooo.

[NQ6U]

Could be, frankly I don't know how any given throttle control operates. I never was a foamer (fanatic who generally gets in the way), I just like trains.

Me either. I was a volunteer at the rail museum in Portola, California, where I occasionally turned (very large) wrenches on locos and rolling stock. I assume you know the difference between a "foamer" and a "shop rat," right?

[kb2vxa]

Right, a shop rat is a hood rat in a different sort of hood, one with really big wrenches. Tim Taylor eat your heart out, Binford never sold one like this! BTW I saw some while hanging around the locomotive shop on the New Hope & Ivyland RR in New Hope, Pennsylvania. It was always a pleasant diversion on the way home from hamfests in nearby Warminster.

[K7SGJ]

The locomotive is both a Diesel-Electric and Electric. It can run off of the third rail, under-running or over-running, Metro-North and the LIRR have two different systems. In any case, coming up to the curve at 82MPH is over the 70MPH limit in itself. Now sometimes, just sometimes, it wouldn't hurt to begin braking a bit earlier to have some fudge factor. Either have some time to figure out to pull the emergency and not be on a curve, or soil your underwear.

The new "fractal" brakes should help eliminate the eliminating in your underwear.

[N2NH]

Then there is Fan Nirvana, the cab ride. Once upon a time late at night I rode in the cabin in a control car where the view is much better and remember I said it's right up front with nothing past the windows but air. Going over the Moodna Viaduct was spooky to put it mildly, with nothing but black beyond the headlight or on either side and nothing but DOWN it was like a ride into the Stygian black... wwwWWWOOOooo.

The Moodna Viaduct was devoid of traffic last night according to the news here. Metro-North had to stop service at Harriman (Woodbury Commons) due to the Woodbury Viaduct needing emergency repairs. Full service to Port Jervis was restored at 4:08 tonight. And Metro-North and MTA woes go on.

Port Jervis Line service restored

http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2013/December/03/MN_WdbyVia_repair-03Dec13.html

[kb2vxa]

That's interesting, I rode NJT from Hoboken to Port Jervis several times and somehow don't remember going over the Woodbury Viaduct (Why a duck?) and can't figure out how I could have missed it between Harriman and Salisbury Mills. Once you get over the NJ/NY state line into Norfolk Southern Southern Tier territory it sure is a scenic ride. That BTW is another place they switch radio frequencies like at Rahway where they switch to Amtrak. Along the Southern Tier all I heard were the defect detectors unlike elsewhere where I heard plenty of railroad chatter and just for kicks when near Harriman worked the Bear Mountain 2M repeater. They were amused I was going by on a train while I was wondering how to sign KB2VXA/?M. (;->) Unlike the Greenbrook (NJ) repeater they weren't used to the NJT engineer with an HT in the cab........

[N2NH]

That's interesting, I rode NJT from Hoboken to Port Jervis several times and somehow don't remember going over the Woodbury Viaduct (Why a duck?) and can't figure out how I could have missed it between Harriman and Salisbury Mills. Once you get over the NJ/NY state line into Norfolk Southern Southern Tier territory it sure is a scenic ride. That BTW is another place they switch radio frequencies like at Rahway where they switch to Amtrak. Along the Southern Tier all I heard were the defect detectors unlike elsewhere where I heard plenty of railroad chatter and just for kicks when near Harriman worked the Bear Mountain 2M repeater. They were amused I was going by on a train while I was wondering how to sign KB2VXA/?M. (;->) Unlike the Greenbrook (NJ) repeater they weren't used to the NJT engineer with an HT in the cab........

I think the locals are calling the Moodna Viaduct the Woodbury Viaduct. Nothing new. Google's been doing that for a few years with its maps. Until recently, they had Yeehaw Junction 50 miles too far north on their maps. They had moved it from extremely rural junction of 15/60 to downtown Kissimmee, FL.

In any case, MetroNorth's woes are plentiful. Seems that someone put a curse on the MTA.

A Ham mobile as a train op? Wouldn't that be KB2VXA/TM? (Train Master/Train Mobile)

[N8YX]

A Ham mobile as a train op? Wouldn't that be KB2VXA/TM? (Train Master/Train Mobile)
Sounds like a Fairbanks-Morse statement to me ... :yes:

[N2NH]

Sounds like a Fairbanks-Morse statement to me ... :yes:

Absolutely and the PRR, the NYC and NH had F-M units but only the Pennsy had real TMs. I never saw them on any MTA line, but they did still have Alco PAs and GP-7/9s on the LIRR in the late 80s...

Looked it up and yes Shirley there is a Woodbury Viaduct near the Harriman station around Rt. 32 near the Thruway. Not as well known as the Moodna Viaduct but they finished the emergency repairs yesterday and this morning, the Metro-North Hudson Line is now supposed to be near normal.

[W9JEF]

Seems to me, that, like a commercial airliner, these trains

should have a "copilot" to insure against situations such as this.

[K7SGJ]

Seems to me, that, like a commercial airliner, these trains

should have a "copilot" to insure against situations such as this.

$$$$$$$$$$$$

[NQ6U]

Southern Pacific used to run the F-M Trainmasters on the commuter run on the peninsula between San Jose and San Francisco. I have some old 8mm footage my father shot of them running past the Hillsdale station in San Mateo.

The locos used weird horizontally opposed 2-stroke diesel engines originally developed for use in WW ll submarines.

Fairbanks Morse still exists, BTW; they repair engines for ships and do a lot of work for the US Navy.

[kb2vxa]

Originally Posted by N2NH
A Ham mobile as a train op? Wouldn't that be KB2VXA/TM? (Train Master/Train Mobile)
N8YX:
Sounds like a Fairbanks-Morse statement to me.
<groan>
They'd probably wonder what the TM was all about. Now if I had a CB walkie-talkie I'd be wondering "4 wheeler, 18 wheeler, how many wheels has THIS thing got?"
"In any case, Metro North's woes are plentiful. Seems that someone put a curse on the MTA."
Word is going around about the Spuyten Duyvil curse: http://www.lohud.com/article/20131201/NEWS/312010026/Phil-Reisman-Derailment-may-feed-rumors-Spuyten-Duyvil-curse?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

Ah, I see we got the Woodbury Viaduct straight, it's a pretty big one so like I said I don't know how I could have missed it. I'm still wondering why a duck. Actually this is the only thing that has Groucho and Chico Marx doing the routine, enjoy the sound anyway, the video sucks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjNj8vTD9Zo

"Seems to me, that, like a commercial airliner, these trains should have a "copilot" to insure against situations such as this."
In a sense freight trains do, since the caboose and half the crew were eliminated the conductor rides in the cab. In newer locomotives he has auxiliary readout screens and controls on his console. Actually commercial airliners don't even need a pilot since the autopilot now incorporates GPS, computerized navigational and even takeoff and landing controls. Beginning with the 737 they can fly themselves from terminal to terminal, the only reason there is still a cockpit crew is the public is scared of automation. So, I wonder why they accepted automated shuttle trains from the start, the first was BART in the San Francisco area.

Trainmaster was but one of several locomotives in the Fairbanks-Morse inventory, they retained the services of industrial designer Raymond Loewy to create a visually impressive carbody for the Erie-built. They built a lot of things in their history and yes, today engines. http://www.fairbanksmorse.com/ Now I wonder if they had a plant in Alaska that made telegraph keys.

[n2ize]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1534060.1385916725!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image-1-1534060.jpg

Is that locomotive diesel electric? The engineer said he tried to use the brakes but they failed.

What about regenerative braking?

Wow... that is a sharper curve than I realized. Sounds to me like the driver was moving on like an outlaw running from a posse and wasn't paying attention to his driving. I am no train expert nor am I much of a train buff. But I have read that there is such a thing as automatic speed control to alert the driver and automatically apply emergency braking if such situations arise.. Metro-North is a major passenger line that handles a huge volume of daily passengers. Why wasn't such an emergency system in place and operational ?? I believe the subway system has emergency stops to prevent such incidents. What is wrong with Metro-North. ? It should be mandatory that an automatic emergency braking system be put into place ASAP !!

[kb2vxa]

ATC systems in the United States are almost always integrated with existing continuous cab signalling systems. The ATC comes from electronics in the locomotive that implement some form of speed control based on the inputs of the cab signalling system. If the train speed exceeds the maximum speed allowed for that portion of track, an overspeed alarm sounds in the cab. If the engineer fails to reduce speed and/or make a brake application to reduce speed a penalty brake application is made automatically. Some high-volume passenger railroads such as Amtrak, Metro North and the Long Island Rail Road require the use of speed control on freight trains that run on all or part of their systems but it doesn't seem like they're required on their own locomotives.

The MTA subway does have automatic emergency stop (ATS) actuated by signals due to high volume and close spacing of trains at rush hour. When the signal is red a mechanism actuates a metal stab next to the rail that engages another on the undercarriage that actuates a valve that dumps air thus activating full emergency stop. Should the train run a red it stops pretty quick, remember it's light rail but it still would run over the dime.

[N2NH]

And the slam is well deserved...


The head of the Federal Railroad Administration says the record of four serious accidents that occurred in less than seven months on Metro-North lines resulting in five deaths and 129 injuries is “simply unacceptable.”

Joseph Szabo made the comment in a December 3 letter to top Metropolitan Transportation Authority officials. He cited the May 17 derailment and collision in Bridgeport; the May 28 West Haven, CT roadway worker fatality; the July 18 Spuyten Duyvil, Bronx, CSX derailment; and the December 1 Spuyten Duyvil, Bronx fatal derailment.

“Immediate corrective action is imperative,” Szabo wrote to MTA Chairman Thomas Prendergast. He said his administrators have urged MTA, and specifically Metro-North, “to take a closer look at all issues that could affect the safety of Metro-North’s passengers and employees.”

He wrote that the MTA “needs to demonstrate to them a serious, good faith commitment to the safe operation of the system, and inform them of the steps that MTA will take to enhance safety in both the short- and long-term.”

FRA Official lowers the boom on Metro-North and the MTA. Good thing they didn't look at the LIRR (Also MTA) while they were at it.

Federal railroad official says Metro-North accident track record is ‘unacceptable’ (http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2013/December/05/MN_FRA-05Dec13.html)

[kb2vxa]

"Good thing they didn't look at the LIRR (Also MTA) while they were at it."

I'm sure they wouldn't like to see THIS one! January this year a car on the level crossing half a mile before the Brentwood station, two incinerated.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/dead-lirr-train-slams-car-article-1.1245047

[NQ6U]

"Good thing they didn't look at the LIRR (Also MTA) while they were at it."

I'm sure they wouldn't like to see THIS one! January this year a car on the level crossing half a mile before the Brentwood station, two incinerated.

Can hardly blame MTA for some moron who drives his car around a lowered crossing gate, though.

[kb2vxa]

I'm not blaming anyone but the fool driving the car. What I said was the MTA wouldn't want to see the mess, it had my stomach doing flips. BTW I first found out about it while downloading pictures from http://www.railpictures.net/ which is where I got that one. News photos don't show flames, reporters got there much later than the firemen.

[n2ize]

Can hardly blame MTA for some moron who drives his car around a lowered crossing gate, though.

I guess he was in a hurry to get to the "promised land".

[n2ize]

The way I see it accidents are always going to happen. sometimes they are going to occur in greater frequency than others. But they are going to happen. Machines break, human error, even foul play. In the wake of this eye opener there is going to be a lot of talk about safety, etc. And a lot of lawsuits are going to be filed and paid out. As the smoke clears away you'll here less and less about it and everything will remain as it is now. Outrage only lasts so long... till the next accident.

[kb2vxa]

Yes and no, don't underestimate the power of the FRA. Not too long ago there was a rear end collision in Los Angeles (?) caused by an engineer texting with a railfan and not paying attention to signals. It didn't take long for several major railroads to implement severe restrictions on cell phone use for company business and a complete ban on private use.

[KK4AMI]

I always thought today everything industrial, ie. power companies, shipping trucks and trains were going to some sort of SCADA. Guess I'm starting to think of computers as our guardian angels when it comes to overcoming man's stupid errors. I'm watching too much Hollywood, picturing a giant flatscreen with someone/something monitoring the vitals of every train on the track.

[N8YX]

I always thought today everything industrial, ie. power companies, shipping trucks and trains were going to some sort of SCADA. Guess I'm starting to think of computers as our guardian angels when it comes to overcoming man's stupid errors.
One word on why SCADA or similar automated, embedded controllers in transportation equipment is a very, very bad idea:

Stuxnet.

[W9JEF]

One word on why SCADA or similar automated, embedded controllers in transportation equipment is a very, very bad idea:

Stuxnet.

Is there any good reason why the embedded controllers in transportation systems

cannot be closed systems, i.e., completely independent--not connected to the internet?

[n2ize]

Is there any good reason why the embedded controllers in transportation systems

cannot be closed systems, i.e., completely independent--not connected to the internet?

Yeah, it's more fun if they are connected to the Internetz. If they are closed systems you can't download any Pron ;)

[n2ize]

Yes and no, don't underestimate the power of the FRA. Not too long ago there was a rear end collision in Los Angeles (?) caused by an engineer texting with a railfan and not paying attention to signals. It didn't take long for several major railroads to implement severe restrictions on cell phone use for company business and a complete ban on private use.

I hope you're right. But life experience has shown me the same parrter. An accident occurs. People are killed. This is followed by outcry, investigations, lawsuits, safety recommendations, etc... etc.. and then all is quiet... till the next accident.

Actually I am aware that bad accidents and fatalities often lead to changes for the better. For example the Triangle Shirtwaist fire resulted in sweeping changes for the better in workplace safety. The Boston Cocoanut Grove fire resulted in sweeping changes regarding fire safety in restaurants and nightclubs. And the infamously fatal "Our Lady Of The Angels" school fire in Chicago brought about sweeping changes in the fire safety and construction of schools throughout the country. Tragic incidents often do result in better safety measures being taken. Changes that often do prevent future disasters. The only problem is that no matter how much we change things there if aways the issue of human error, human stupidity, foul play, disregard for safety, and things that are sometimes overlooked.

[kb2vxa]

"I'm watching too much Hollywood, picturing a giant flatscreen with someone/something monitoring the vitals of every train on the track."

Not Hollywood, every major railroad has gone from manned towers at interlockings to remote control from major centers. In addition to dispatchers with individual computers and monitors the main walls are plastered with huge screens showing every signal, switch, train location and other data in the wide area covered by the center. The "big board" behind the switch levers in the tower has moved and become the HUGE board.

[NQ6U]

I hope all those computers are not running Windows.

[N8YX]

Is there any good reason why the embedded controllers in transportation systems

cannot be closed systems, i.e., completely independent--not connected to the internet?
Sure.

Now how are you going to apply updates to them?

USB port?

I own you.

[N2NH]

Seems to me, that, like a commercial airliner, these trains

should have a "copilot" to insure against situations such as this.

The FRA has just commanded MNCRR to do just that. Years ago, when they converted from steam to diesel, the fireman went with the engineer.


Sure.

Now how are you going to apply updates to them?

USB port?

I own you.

That was the drawback I had trying to run a dedicated PC for DSP and Software defined radio. I was planning to use one computer for that and another to get updates on the web running an antivirus program on the update as insurance before installing it on the dedicated machine.

I'm pretty certain that there would still be risks.

[kb2vxa]

Originally Posted by W9JEF
Seems to me, that, like a commercial airliner, these trains should have a "copilot" to insure against situations such as this.
N2NH:
The FRA has just commanded MNCRR to do just that. Years ago, when they converted from steam to diesel, the fireman went with the engineer.

That was union featherbedding, now the conductor rides with the engineer since the brakemen and caboose were eliminated and replaced by a flashing rear end device (FRED) or an end of train device (EOT) that also sends radiotelemetry to the locomotive. The trouble with passenger trains is the engineer rides alone, the conductor and assistants are collecting tickets and performing other duties. Some weren't paying attention to my previous posts, I also mentioned automatic train control (ATC) unfortunately not used by the MTA except on the subway.

That updating imbedded controllers bit reminds me of updating a talking GPS. Updates are downloaded to a PC but not owning one I can't say how the data is transferred to the GPS. Unless they're kept current they know where they are but sometimes don't know where they're going. Then there's human error, I remember a funny one. It said "turn ___ here" so he did and found himself on a railroad track. Hey stupid, can't you tell the difference between a level crossing and the road just 10 feet ahead? Every level crossing in this town is just like that one but so far drivers may be crazy and some stupid but not THAT stupid. (;->)

[NQ6U]

now the conductor rides with the engineer since the brakemen and caboose were eliminated and replaced by a flashing rear end device (FRED)

Although, if you ask a trainman, they'll say that the F in FRED stands for something else entirely.

[n2ize]

"I'm watching too much Hollywood, picturing a giant flatscreen with someone/something monitoring the vitals of every train on the track."

Not Hollywood, every major railroad has gone from manned towers at interlockings to remote control from major centers. In addition to dispatchers with individual computers and monitors the main walls are plastered with huge screens showing every signal, switch, train location and other data in the wide area covered by the center. The "big board" behind the switch levers in the tower has moved and become the HUGE board.

Changes can be expected as technology advances. In the old days it was manned interlockes, manual switch operators, lanterns, and..., railroad torpedoes strapped to the rails.

[kb2vxa]

"Although, if you ask a trainman, they'll say that the F in FRED stands for something else entirely."
Of that I'm sure but you're confusing freight with passenger personnel classifications. Aboard passenger trains there used to be conductors and trainmen but the latter according to the PC crowd is sexist so the hats were all scrapped and replaced by ones that say assistant conductor. Freight train personnel were the engineer, fireman, conductor who does the paperwork and is in charge of the train, and several brakemen. The fireman and brakemen were eliminated along with the caboose and now the conductor rides with the engineer. According to union rules the locomotive is not part of the train believe it or not and the rule remains. I don't see how I could ask a person who does not exist, but I suppose I could ask any railroad employee... if I really cared. (;->)

BTW they still use torpedoes along with fuzees (red flares) but battery powered high powered flashlights have replaced lanterns. That reminds me of something Glen GW1JWC told me about his feckless youth. There was a tram line that he and a friend stole torpedoes from and they put them on the track as a prank. Yeah I know, not the smartest thing to do but what can you expect from a couple of mischievous kids?

[KG4NEL]

I hope you're right. But life experience has shown me the same parrter. An accident occurs. People are killed. This is followed by outcry, investigations, lawsuits, safety recommendations, etc... etc.. and then all is quiet... till the next accident.

Actually I am aware that bad accidents and fatalities often lead to changes for the better. For example the Triangle Shirtwaist fire resulted in sweeping changes for the better in workplace safety. The Boston Cocoanut Grove fire resulted in sweeping changes regarding fire safety in restaurants and nightclubs. And the infamously fatal "Our Lady Of The Angels" school fire in Chicago brought about sweeping changes in the fire safety and construction of schools throughout the country. Tragic incidents often do result in better safety measures being taken. Changes that often do prevent future disasters. The only problem is that no matter how much we change things there if aways the issue of human error, human stupidity, foul play, disregard for safety, and things that are sometimes overlooked.

You don't get the same accident, but hopefully the one that takes its place causes less damage.

Just like we'll probably never see another Tenerife, but part of me shudders to think what would happen with the first A380 hull loss...

[W9JEF]

https://forums.hamisland.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by W9JEF https://forums.hamisland.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://forums.hamisland.net/showthread.php?p=568176#post568176)

Is there any good reason why the embedded controllers in transportation systems

cannot be closed systems, i.e., completely independent--not connected to the internet?



https://forums.hamisland.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by N8YX https://forums.hamisland.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://forums.hamisland.net/showthread.php?p=568176#post568176)

Sure.

Now how are you going to apply updates to them?

USB port?

I own you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's to update?

Shouldn't the speed limit around a curve remain constant?

[n2ize]

https://forums.hamisland.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by W9JEF https://forums.hamisland.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://forums.hamisland.net/showthread.php?p=568176#post568176)

Is there any good reason why the embedded controllers in transportation systems

cannot be closed systems, i.e., completely independent--not connected to the internet?



https://forums.hamisland.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by N8YX https://forums.hamisland.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://forums.hamisland.net/showthread.php?p=568176#post568176)

Sure.

Now how are you going to apply updates to them?

USB port?

I own you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's to update?

Shouldn't the speed limit around a curve remain constant?

Software has to be updated from time to time. thus it must be connected to the internetz. Besides, there is always new pron.

[n2ize]

The FRA has just commanded MNCRR to do just that. Years ago, when they converted from steam to diesel, the fireman went with the engineer.



That was the drawback I had trying to run a dedicated PC for DSP and Software defined radio. I was planning to use one computer for that and another to get updates on the web running an antivirus program on the update as insurance before installing it on the dedicated machine.

I'm pretty certain that there would still be risks.
Not to mention the powers that be have access to every computer in the world. Every computer has a backdoor.

[W9JEF]

Software has to be updated from time to time. thus it must be connected to the internetz. Besides, there is always new pron.

Why can't speed control be hardwired into the system?

As the curve is approached, the train automatically slows down.

[n2ize]

Why can't speed control be hardwired into the system?

As the curve is approached, the train automatically slows down.

I don't know. Seems like it would make sense to me. But then, i know very little about railroading.

[kb2vxa]

"Why can't speed control be hardwired into the system? As the curve is approached, the train automatically slows down."

It is, ATC reads the cab signals (signal display in the cab).

[W9JEF]

"Why can't speed control be hardwired into the system? As the curve is approached, the train automatically slows down."

It is, ATC reads the cab signals (signal display in the cab).

Why not go one important step further, and override manual control if the train is going too fast?

[N2NH]

Why not go one important step further, and override manual control if the train is going too fast?

The Noon News here said that is exactly what they are doing, especially on the curves. It should be in operation in a few months. Meanwhile there are strict speed restrictions in place on the danger areas as of today and two are in the cab also.

[kb2vxa]

"Why not go one important step further, and override manual control if the train is going too fast?"

In a locomotive so equipped ATC does just that (penalty brake application), previously I gave a brief explanation how it works. There's more detailed information on line where I got it from.

Ah, thanks for the news update, FINALLY Metro North is getting wise. Unfortunately this is another case of blood being the price of safety upgrades.