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W3WN
10-09-2013, 09:35 PM
Well, looks like it's just about over.

Last two games, the bats went silent. A handful of bad pitches got knocked out of the park. Experience and veterans are about to win out over Cinderella.

Disappointing.

Still... they finally broke .500, they finally won over 90 games, they almost won the division and did make the playoffs.

Which leaves the immortal cry:

Wait 'till next year!

WX7P
10-09-2013, 10:02 PM
Sorry to see that. I wanted a A's-Pirates WS.

Might be me tomorrow night with the WTNY lament.

A's had 'em last night and the bullpen let the game get away. I listened to every agonizing minute. (aaargh!)

Gray v. Verlander tomorrow at the Coliseum. Should be Rockin'!

Wish I was there.

W3WN
10-10-2013, 07:26 AM
Bottom line is... we're disappointed in the outcome of the last two games. We're not disappointed in the team.

The core of the Pirates are still relatively young players, and they'll be around for a few years yet. There's a few holes to fill (first base & right field come to mind), but nothing that they can't overcome.

I don't expect the three rent-a-players who got brought in in August to stick around. Justin Morneau showed flashes of his past glory, but his bat was not what they'd hoped for. 50/50 he's back. Marlon Byrd did an outstanding job, on a personal level, he's had a great year... first on a lousy team (Mets) and then on a play off run. He's a free agent, and he will probably command a huge salary... I expect the Pirates to be outbid. 10% chance he stays. John Buck? I'm not sure why they brought him in; possibly as insurance for catcher, when Michael "The Fort" McKenry went down for the season with a knee injury. But the barely played him... he was decent when he played, but something about the fit didn't seem right. 25% chance he stays.

I suspect AJ Burnett will retire. He's been saying that if he does one more year, he wants it to be with the Pirates... but I don't know how he feels after being passed over for Game 5 last night (and considering what he did in Game 1, and what he said to the press afterwards, that was the right call, IMHO). He faltered quite a bit down the stretch, so the team may not want him back. And, well, the last 2 years, the Yankees paid the bulk of his salary, as part of the trade. So he would cost the Pirates a lot of shekels to stick around for another year, possibly more than they want to pay him. 1/3 he's back.

And that's probably the worst of it... the "impact" players most likely to be gone.

I think the team will be fine, and will be back in the thick of it next year. They had a taste of a pennant race; they liked it. And a hunger for another taste like that... a well motivated team with some experience... is all to the good.

WX7P
10-10-2013, 10:23 AM
Bottom line is... we're disappointed in the outcome of the last two games. We're not disappointed in the team.

The core of the Pirates are still relatively young players, and they'll be around for a few years yet. There's a few holes to fill (first base & right field come to mind), but nothing that they can't overcome.

I don't expect the three rent-a-players who got brought in in August to stick around. Justin Morneau showed flashes of his past glory, but his bat was not what they'd hoped for. 50/50 he's back. Marlon Byrd did an outstanding job, on a personal level, he's had a great year... first on a lousy team (Mets) and then on a play off run. He's a free agent, and he will probably command a huge salary... I expect the Pirates to be outbid. 10% chance he stays. John Buck? I'm not sure why they brought him in; possibly as insurance for catcher, when Michael "The Fort" McKenry went down for the season with a knee injury. But the barely played him... he was decent when he played, but something about the fit didn't seem right. 25% chance he stays.

I suspect AJ Burnett will retire. He's been saying that if he does one more year, he wants it to be with the Pirates... but I don't know how he feels after being passed over for Game 5 last night (and considering what he did in Game 1, and what he said to the press afterwards, that was the right call, IMHO). He faltered quite a bit down the stretch, so the team may not want him back. And, well, the last 2 years, the Yankees paid the bulk of his salary, as part of the trade. So he would cost the Pirates a lot of shekels to stick around for another year, possibly more than they want to pay him. 1/3 he's back.

And that's probably the worst of it... the "impact" players most likely to be gone.

I think the team will be fine, and will be back in the thick of it next year. They had a taste of a pennant race; they liked it. And a hunger for another taste like that... a well motivated team with some experience... is all to the good.

The taste of the post season thing is dead on. I know that meant a lot to the A's.

Here's my spin on your free agents.

Marlon Byrd: He was underpaid at $700,000 but overpaid in his previous contract. No way is he worth 6.5 mil. He'll be lucky to get 3 mil on the open market mostly due to age etc. I think your guys can sign him if his price is at that level, and only on a one year contract.

AJ Burnett: NOT a 16.5 million dollar pitcher, never was. He'll come back if he thinks the team is competitive only, as he will have to take a sizable discount on his current salary. The Bucs MIGHT pay 8 million (like they are now, with the Yankees picking up the rest of the contract) but it probably depends on how they feel about their farm hands or if they can find a Bartolo Colon type starter who is younger and cheaper. This call is all about talent evaluation.

Justin Morneau: I wouldn't be surprised to see him sign with the Blue Jays, since he's Canadian, albeit Western Canadian. At this point in his career with his injury history and production, he's a 5 million dollar player max. As with Byrd, you want to go only one year possibly with a team option. Morneau's previous contract really burned the Twins with his injuries and the concurrent monster contract signed by Joe Mauer. I don't envision the Pirates making a Jay Bell mistake or Jason Kendall mistake here.

John Buck: He was way overpaid at 6 mil a year. When he signed that 18 mil contract with the Marlins, every GM's head started spinning around like Linda Blair. The guy has always been a "prospect", never a Butch Posey, and should command backup money. Of course with the shortage of decent catchers in both leagues, he may be worth more than I think. He does call a strong game and has hit some in the past.

A lot of signing has to do with egos on the part of the players too. You very rarely see someone like Pat Burrell (who came back to the Giants after the 2010 Ws) who took a 8 million dollar pay cut to come back. In that case, it was a good thing because Burrell didn't produce, and either did Aubrey Huff, another major contributor to the Giants 2010 WS win who DID get an outrageous contract and didn't earn it. My point is, unless the dollars are right, you might be better off without some of these guys based on age and injury history.

As the A's have proven, there are plenty of players out there in the bargain bin. It's all about talent evaluation and the recognition that you won't be playing with the big boys like the Yankees and Dodgers on a salary level.

NQ6U
10-10-2013, 11:00 AM
I think it's time to read Moneyball again...

wa6mhz
10-10-2013, 12:18 PM
Sorry it didn't work out, Ron. Now U can cheer on the Cards to do in those DARN DODGERS!

W3WN
10-10-2013, 12:49 PM
I think it's time to read Moneyball again...I saw the movie.

...and the reality is, the basic concepts of Moneyball are now being used by most of the teams, especially the smaller market ones...

W3WN
10-10-2013, 12:49 PM
Sorry it didn't work out, Ron. Now U can cheer on the Cards to do in those DARN DODGERS!Cheer on the Cardinals? No, I don't think so.

NQ6U
10-10-2013, 04:06 PM
I saw the movie.

When I first heard about it, I remember thinking thinking "How the hell are they gonna make a movie out of that?" But not only did Brad Pitt pull it off, he made a movie that even my non-baseball fan XYL enjoyed.


...and the reality is, the basic concepts of Moneyball are now being used by most of the teams, especially the smaller market ones...

The Padres subscribe to it. In fact, several of their staffers were lured away from the Oakland A's.

NA4BH
10-10-2013, 04:38 PM
Now that the Jolly Rogers have a lot of time on their hands they ............... wait for it............... can become Jolly Ranchers










http://www.oldtimecandy.com/assets/images/singles/jolly_ranchers_bulk.jpg

WX7P
10-10-2013, 06:27 PM
The taste of the post season thing is dead on. I know that meant a lot to the A's.

Here's my spin on your free agents.

Marlon Byrd: He was underpaid at $700,000 but overpaid in his previous contract. No way is he worth 6.5 mil. He'll be lucky to get 3 mil on the open market mostly due to age etc. I think your guys can sign him if his price is at that level, and only on a one year contract.

AJ Burnett: NOT a 16.5 million dollar pitcher, never was. He'll come back if he thinks the team is competitive only, as he will have to take a sizable discount on his current salary. The Bucs MIGHT pay 8 million (like they are now, with the Yankees picking up the rest of the contract) but it probably depends on how they feel about their farm hands or if they can find a Bartolo Colon type starter who is younger and cheaper. This call is all about talent evaluation.

Justin Morneau: I wouldn't be surprised to see him sign with the Blue Jays, since he's Canadian, albeit Western Canadian. At this point in his career with his injury history and production, he's a 5 million dollar player max. As with Byrd, you want to go only one year possibly with a team option. Morneau's previous contract really burned the Twins with his injuries and the concurrent monster contract signed by Joe Mauer. I don't envision the Pirates making a Jay Bell mistake or Jason Kendall mistake here.

John Buck: He was way overpaid at 6 mil a year. When he signed that 18 mil contract with the Marlins, every GM's head started spinning around like Linda Blair. The guy has always been a "prospect", never a Butch Posey, and should command backup money. Of course with the shortage of decent catchers in both leagues, he may be worth more than I think. He does call a strong game and has hit some in the past.

A lot of signing has to do with egos on the part of the players too. You very rarely see someone like Pat Burrell (who came back to the Giants after the 2010 Ws) who took a 8 million dollar pay cut to come back. In that case, it was a good thing because Burrell didn't produce, and either did Aubrey Huff, another major contributor to the Giants 2010 WS win who DID get an outrageous contract and didn't earn it. My point is, unless the dollars are right, you might be better off without some of these guys based on age and injury history.

As the A's have proven, there are plenty of players out there in the bargain bin. It's all about talent evaluation and the recognition that you won't be playing with the big boys like the Yankees and Dodgers on a salary level.

No comment, Ron?

W3WN
10-10-2013, 09:42 PM
No comment, Ron?
I spent most of the night at the club meeting, and after getting home, some time with the family. C'mon, give me a break here...

I pretty much agree with most of your comments. I am hoping that AJ comes back for one more year, and Byrd was a big hit here. I'm hoping he decides to stick around another year... but if someone throws enough money at him, he'll bolt. Morneau and Buck are nice guys (anyone notice that Buck could pass for the brother of the WWE's Ryback?) but I suspect that they didn't do enough for the brass to want them back, unless at a real bargain level.

I also don't know if Jeff Karstens (1 year deal, but out all year due to injury) will come back... or want to come back. Wandy Rodriguez will probably be back, but there's some concern about his elbow (diagnosis: arthritis). I think Jeff Locke will be back to his first half form, once he has a chance to completely recover. The bulk of the bullpen will be back, let's just hope they don't overuse a few key guys like they ended up doing this year.

McKenry may not be back. Tony Sanchez proved to be an excellent backup catcher,his time has come. If Byrd goes, Tabata might be trade bait; if he stays, Tabata probably will be trade bait. Jordy Mercer will be the regular SS next year, Barmes may be let go if he isn't willing to take a smaller contract as a bench player.

Cutch? M V P and he'll be here for quite a few years yet.