I Hate Buying Cars

[W3WN]

Bait & Switch is alive and well.

Our 1999 Olds Alero is slowly starting to die. It's in what my dad would have called "nickel and dime" mode... starting to need little repairs, that add up over time. I see where this is going, and I don't want to invest more shekels in the car if I don't have to. So I'm looking.

I had a 1996 Subaru Outback before, really liked the car. An Outback or Forester was one of my first choices.

Go online, yesterday, to check with the local Subaru dealer... I've dealt with other dealerships from this group before, and they've always been pretty fair. For a car dealership. Here's one of the links I was looking at, if it's still active:
http://www.westlibertysubaru.com/used/Subaru/2002-Subaru-Forester-Pittsburgh-PA-3d882f760a0a006401742ad80e771b82.htm

$6595 for a 2002? I didn't realize that used car prices had gone up that much, but never mind...

So I get ahold of one of their sales reps, a guy named Khalid. Talk with him a little about the car, ask him about availability, etc. Then he gives me the price:

$8995

Yeah, you read that right, $2400 above what the web site is showing. I discontinue the call with an empty promise to try and come in this evening.

Talked later with a co-worker of his, guy named Bill (he called me in a follow-up to an earlier email). Brought up the discrepancy. Gives me a song & dance about how their website vendor has the prices all screwed up, some are showing wholesale not retail, some of the cars need work & aren't for sale yet, some don't actually exist, yada yada yada. But he assures me, several times, that this is NOT "bait and switch", and if I'd just come in, all can be straightened out & he'll get me a REAL good deal.

Yeah, right. I smell a rat.

Mentioned this to my supervisor this morning. (He races sports cars on weekends, in the SCCA and similar groups, so he knows more about vehicles than I do). Ethan goes to the Edmund's site (he prefers them over Kelly Blue Book), and after we check a few details, finds out the expected retail on this particular vehicle.

$5000 - 5500.

Uh huh. I thought I smelled a rat. I did.

I am considering filing a complaint with the state AG's office over these tactics. Might do some good, might not. Definitely has made me leery of ever dealing with this auto group ever again.

Wonder how many folks that catch in this little honey trap?

We have a tentative approval already from Julie's credit union. We have 30 days to find a vehicle... but of the sale price is too far out of whack with the KBB value, they won't approve the loan. So either we come up with a lot of cash (I don't expect much for the trade) we don't have, or we go elsewhere.

Meanwhile... I now have a whole bunch of printouts from AutoTrader on several makes & models in our price range. We'll find something.

[W2NAP]

I honestly would not buy from a dealer. if they have 9k on a car they really bought it at auction for about 2 or 3k or less. and those sales people work pretty much on commission so the more they hose you for the more money they get.

and lets not get into the whole lemon issue... I know someone locally has been though 2 or 3 cars now from a dealer over in muncie.. every one of them has been a lemon. kept telling the guy for the price you are paying for this crap you could have had a older Benz diesel

[KG4CGC]

Same thing on Craigslist. Dealers advertise a vehicle but when you get there they say the vehicle was sold this morning. Go to CL on my phone and show them the ad was still up and it's 4 pm. Suddenly you hear a lot of blather and suddenly the vehicle was sold 30 minutes ago and that they are just getting around to taking the ad down.

Get up the next day, go to CL. New ad, same dealer, same ad just a newer time stamp.
Hmmm. How much time do I have to waste today?

[W2NAP]

http://muncie.craigslist.org/cto/4067099759.html

diesel rabbit. 1K seems like the only thing that really kills them is getting smacked by a truck.

http://muncie.craigslist.org/cto/4080779403.html

another diesel rabbit 2.5K only this is an auto

[W3WN]

Same thing on Craigslist. Dealers advertise a vehicle but when you get there they say the vehicle was sold this morning. Go to CL on my phone and show them the ad was still up and it's 4 pm. Suddenly you hear a lot of blather and suddenly the vehicle was sold 30 minutes ago and that they are just getting around to taking the ad down.
< snip >In the immortal words from In Living Color, Homey don't play those games.

Dealer tries that stunt on me, I will walk. Period. If they try and BS me further, then I'll have K3AIR give them a buzz. Funny thing, they don't pull those stunts when an attorney's involved...

[NA4BH]

When our kids were young and custom mini-vans were the thing, a local dealer offered one for $14,999. We went to look and found one that we liked. During the paperwork session, he told us he was going to bump the price to $19,999. When asked why, he said "This is for insurance purposes, you know just in case you wrecked it, they will pay the value". We got up and left, only after we told him he was fscking crazy.

[KG4CGC]

When our kids were young and custom mini-vans were the thing, a local dealer offered one for $14,999. We went to look and found one that we liked. During the paperwork session, he told us he was going to bump the price to $19,999. When asked why, he said "This is for insurance purposes, you know just in case you wrecked it, they will pay the value". We got up and left, only after we told him he was fscking crazy.

Should have also reminded him that he was an arrogant bastard and that you would see to it that everyone in the industry would get an ear full from you and your friends and family.

[KG4NEL]

Friend of mine just recently bought a Forester XT for about $8K, but a lot of parts were included as well.

Same engine/manual transmission that's in the STI - heck of a lot of fun for a wagon.

[KG4NEL]

http://muncie.craigslist.org/cto/4080779403.html

another diesel rabbit 2.5K only this is an auto

10802

[W3WN]

When our kids were young and custom mini-vans were the thing, a local dealer offered one for $14,999. We went to look and found one that we liked. During the paperwork session, he told us he was going to bump the price to $19,999. When asked why, he said "This is for insurance purposes, you know just in case you wrecked it, they will pay the value". We got up and left, only after we told him he was fscking crazy.Oh? There's a legal term for that. "Insurance Fraud." In some jurisdictions, at that $$ amount, that's a felony.

That's in addition to his generally being a lying, untrustworthy ass-wipe who is clearly the union of two unmarried adults who had, prior to said union, either exchanged a lot of currency, or had drunk a lot of liquor.

[W3WN]

BTW, I think we found something last night. 2008 Chevy Trailblazer. Roomy, comfortable, rides nicely, handles well, has some power... and has the capability for a trailer hitch (can you say, mobile HF antennas?)

There's only one gripe the boss had with it.

It's white.

She kept grousing a little about it... I finally said "I don't care what color it is! It rides well, and you like driving it, right?" and that was the end of that.

We should know today if a deal can be worked out.

[TESLA]

Enjoy that 12-14mpg, nothing bad to say about the vehicle but anything under 20mpg gets crossed off my list, my CRV averages 24mpg around town.

[W3WN]

Enjoy that 12-14mpg, nothing bad to say about the vehicle but anything under 20mpg gets crossed off my list, my CRV averages 24mpg around town.Won't be a big issue. Most of my driving during the week is short trips -- to and from the LRT for work, trip down to the store, and so forth. And I can walk to the LRT if I have to.

I need something to haul stuff in. You can't stuff a dozen 3x5's into the back of a Mazda 3 sedan, or more than about 2 dozen retaining wall cement blocks... you get the idea.

[TESLA]

Sounds like a great vehicle for you then, people love them, comfortable, get great reviews, just loves gas. I live more than 30 minutes from anywhere so mileage is a huge issue for me.

[K7SGJ]

I couldn't get by without a pickup truck. Although my Tundra flex-fuel only gets 17-20 mpg on gasoline, a little less on ethanol, I'd be hard pressed to haul hay, lumber, the trailers with the tractor, forklift, or UTV on them, or any of other stuff we need to, with a conventional automobile. Plus, it's easy to rinse out or just put the blower to it for cleaning. It's also nice for offroading on many of the desert trails out here. The ride is incredibly smooth for a truck, to boot.

A couple of my friends have the Chevy Trailblazer, and love them. You won't be disappointed if you go that route. It's a nice crossover, and will climb a telephone pole in four-wheel drive, if you get that option, and wish to do so.

[W3WN]

Thanks guys.

The deed is done... we just have to sign the paperwork, first thing in the morning, and pick up the Trailblazer.

Yes, it does have the 4 wheel drive option. Considering what happened on our street during Snowmaggedon a couple of years ago (2 of the 3 borough trucks with snow plows broke down, the one remaining one couldn't keep up, so many side streets -- like ours -- didn't get plowed) it's an option I know I will like having.

Anyway, we brought the Olds Alero down to the dealership this morning. Our salesman told us that the first words out of the User Car Manager's mouth was "God, that's an antique!". We got $500 on trade for it. Considering it was a 99, and had an issue with the brakes (I think the master cylinder is going on it), I'm happy with that. Heck, we got 11 years out of it.

Of course, they had to make one last try on the financing. The boss's credit union would have given us 4.75% over 4 years. Their bank countered with 4.73% over 4 years. (We had been told the other night that 6% was more likely, amazing what happens when they know what we're already guaranteed) Not really significant... but we'd have to go to the credit union to sign the papers, which wouldn't be until this afternoon at the earliest, and then another few hours (into the next working day) to get all the arrangements made. So we'll go with their bank... one last trip to the dealership in the morning, get everything signed at once, and we're done.

[KG4CGC]

Good deal!
Word to the wise. Don't be afraid to invest in a set of steel rims with Snowmageddon tires on it and even with chains or whatnot already mounted. I recall some wire-like passenger car tire chains that were not as bulky.
Keep on hand in the garage. Wrap in plastic wrap to prevent dry rot, old racing trick. When you hear the reports of, "Snowza Comin!" You will have time to change the tires.

[K7SGJ]

Something else you may want to do. Throw it in 4 wheel high, and drive it a bit just to keep everything lubricated and working. You might even want to go off-road in 4 wheel low, from time to time, and try a little DX in the toolies. Have fun with it.

[W3WN]

Good deal!
Word to the wise. Don't be afraid to invest in a set of steel rims with Snowmageddon tires on it and even with chains or whatnot already mounted. I recall some wire-like passenger car tire chains that were not as bulky.
Keep on hand in the garage. Wrap in plastic wrap to prevent dry rot, old racing trick. When you hear the reports of, "Snowza Comin!" You will have time to change the tires.This car, like so many others these days, has sensors in the tires to detect air pressure. They ain't cheap. So it's not just the investment in rims and snow tires, but investment in the sensors, as well.

[W3WN]

Something else you may want to do. Throw it in 4 wheel high, and drive it a bit just to keep everything lubricated and working. You might even want to go off-road in 4 wheel low, from time to time, and try a little DX in the toolies. Have fun with it.I will take that under advisement!

Incidentally, anyone know offhand how hard it will be to mount a dual bander in the vehicle?

[KG4CGC]

This car, like so many others these days, has sensors in the tires to detect air pressure. They ain't cheap. So it's not just the investment in rims and snow tires, but investment in the sensors, as well.

Kludge the sensors and check the tires regularly like normal.

[K7SGJ]

I will take that under advisement!

Incidentally, anyone know offhand how hard it will be to mount a dual bander in the vehicle?

Probably wouldn't be much of an effort at all if you use a rig with a remote head. I put an 857D in my truck along with a high power two meter rig for APRS when I'm on the road. Both rigs mount under the rear seat, and the 857 remote head is double sided taped to a spot on the dash that is out of the way, but convenient. In the two years I had it mounted that way, it's never fallen off, but then it doesn't weigh much, either. When I'm ready to sell the truck, I won't have to patch anything. I have a dual band through the glass Larsen on the back window hooked up to the VHF/UHF jack on the 857, and use an ATAS 120 for HF that mounts on a custom made trailer hitch bracket. It all works quite well, although there is always room for improvement. The Larsen does have more loss than a hole in the roof mount, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of dropping the headliner and chance tripping an airbag when running cables all over. It actually works pretty well for in town use, and will hit many of the far off mountain tops, and other sites with some elevation. Like I say, it all works well enough to satisfy my needs, without having to put a bunch of holes in the truck.

[NA4BH]

Like I say, it all works well enough to satisfy my needs, without having to put a bunch of holes in the truck.

The one driving the truck is enough. BAZINGA

[K7SGJ]

The one driving the truck is enough. BAZINGA

When are you going back to Minnesota? The loons are missing you.

[W3WN]

C'mon you two. Play. Nice.
---------------------------
I should have been more specific:

(1) Anyone have any experience in routing power cable(s) through the firewall on a Trailblazer? I'd prefer to use a pre-existing hole rather than drill, but if I have to drill a small one, I want to make sure I'm not hitting anything critical.

(2) V/UHF radio -- mounting. Right now, I have an Alinco 510 dual bander that had been the mobile rig for the Olds, sitting on the shelf. I also have a Alinco 590 here in the shack. The 590 can have the control head detach -- and I have the kit. Only problem is that the main tuning... dare I say this word?... knob is missing, as are the rubber grommets around the volume & squelch controls. Of course, I can come up with a knob. Even so, I have to mount the RF body somewhere.

(3) HF radio. Have to get one first. Good news is that this Trailblazer is equipped with a trailer hitch. But that's later.

(4) Antenna. Have to decide where to mount it; I have a mag mount Larsen NMO dual bander, another one that was a trunk/body mount. A long time ago, on my old 79 Chevy van, there was a mounting hole over the left front wheel (courtesy of the previous owner), and I got a mount & 2 meter antenna for it up at AES. Not sure if I want to do something like that here... and it would mean another hole through the firewall... or put it in back somewhere. On the roof would be best, but that too has it's issues with running coax. I would not rule out an on-the-glass antenna, but like anything else, it has to be put on correctly.

That help any?

[K7SGJ]

When you get the vehicle home, have a look under the hood at the firewall in the area off to one side of the steering column. Most vehicles, any more, have a huge rubber grommet, maybe several, that wiring from the engine compartment goes through to get to the inside under the dash. I just used an awl to make an additional hole off to the side away from the factory wiring. As soon as the awl is removed, it pretty much seals up, so make sure you know where you put it. Anyway, at that point, some very heavy gauge wire from the battery to the inside of the vehicle can be run. ( Shirley, you will remember to fuse it at the battery) I ran the positive and the negative wires individually, as it was a lot easier to fish them through the grommet that way. A bit-o-spit helps them glide through a little easier. A dab of silicon seal when done, and your good to go. Or, there is always the Kimber 45 caliber method, but you'll need a drum of sealer.

[ka4dpo]

I just use the 30 amp auxiliary outlet in the center console box in my truck. I also use an old Larson dual band mag mount since I refuse to poke holes in a car unless it is a total beater. So I'm thinking a Trailblazer should have a pretty stout 12 volt port inside the cabin. Why not just use that? There is no hard an fast rule that you have to go directly to the battery unless your 12V port in the car can't handle the load. They are also fused which makes them nice and safe already. Worried about ground? Chassis/body is always good and easy to do from inside the vehicle without drilling holes. Save yourself the trouble, I bet the 12V outlet in the car is fused at at least 15 amps and possibly 20. How much juice do you need?

[KG4NEL]

It isn't yours unless you've taken a hole saw to it :twisted:

[W3WN]

It isn't yours unless you've taken a hole saw to it :twisted:I didn't know you'd seen my '79 van, aka the Urban Assault Vehicle. I had a bunch of used Motorola antenna mounts on back for the 40 & 15 meter hamsticks, along with the 10 M whip.

The '90 van that replaced it got more than a hole saw. It was actually a 'commercial' van, so I cut a hole in the side to mount a window, and I'd gotten my hands on two bucket seats that became the rear passenger seats. It also got separate 2 M & 70 cm antennas on the roof, in addition to the aforementioned Motorola mounts.

I just use the 30 amp auxiliary outlet in the center console box in my truck. I also use an old Larson dual band mag mount since I refuse to poke holes in a car unless it is a total beater. So I'm thinking a Trailblazer should have a pretty stout 12 volt port inside the cabin. Why not just use that? There is no hard an fast rule that you have to go directly to the battery unless your 12V port in the car can't handle the load. They are also fused which makes them nice and safe already. Worried about ground? Chassis/body is always good and easy to do from inside the vehicle without drilling holes. Save yourself the trouble, I bet the 12V outlet in the car is fused at at least 15 amps and possibly 20. How much juice do you need?My experience is that if I'm running 25 W or more on a regular basis, sometimes you blow the fuse to the inside outlets. Don't know if that will be the case with this vehicle. There is a 'cigarette lighter' power socket on the back of the little compartment between the two front seats; for now, I'll use that.

I'm just old-fashioned, I really prefer running the wiring directly to the battery. Hey, it worked for my HW-2036A in my '72 AMC Ambassador...

[KG4CGC]

For several years in the early ’70s the Wisconsin State Patrol used Ambassador squad cars.

[W7XF]

Kludge the sensors and check the tires regularly like normal.

Not that easy.... states that have safety/emission inspections will fail the car if the sensors are missing/malfunctioning..cuz that will punch a fault code into the OBD II, so the car will fail.

[WØTKX]

Fixing that code is part of the kludge, tape on the dashboard isn't.

Finding an unused or wide enough existing firewall grommet is the key. I like using a large nail as a needle with the wires needed wrapped tightly to the head with electrical tape. Grab it with needle nose Vise-Grips, and work it through, pulling the wires along. I like using RG-6 coax straight to the battery for extra shielding for power, and fuse both polarity sides.

I had a hard time finding the "needle" once, so I wrapped a couple of extra wires in and stuck a small LED near the end of the "needle" powered with a button battery. That made it really easy. Have also burned a slightly bigger hole with a crappy soldering iron when needed, not so big that it won't seal up around the thicker wires.

Antenna holes are best, but running extra ground wires to the frame and/or trunk lid works pretty good for HF, an antenna analyzer is helpful.

But I still have not put an antenna on the Miata. ;)

[KG4CGC]

Not that easy.... states that have safety/emission inspections will fail the car if the sensors are missing/malfunctioning..cuz that will punch a fault code into the OBD II, so the car will fail.

Not if they're reading normal. Remember the discussion from Corvette racers?

[WØTKX]

Yes, that's true. I had a fault code on the Previa, and it passed emissions just fine.