Requesting your expertise setting up a radio system...

[Jazz003]

Hello all!
I have just joined your very informative forum looking to hopefully find some answers into setting up a specialized radio system. After much research I am starting to get a handle on things but at the same time I still seem to be a bit overwhelmed with all the varying info I seem to find. It looks as if my needs fall into a specialized (or uncommon) area.

Here is the scenario. I am a member of a cycling group. We are just making a name for ourselves and are starting to do quite well (hoping to become a team at some point). One of the things we are lacking is good communication between a few key riders and sometimes a support vehicle which is on the road with us (but not all the time). We would love to have radios so we can converse while out on the roads. I am somewhat knowledgeable in electronics/computers/radios and this is why the group has asked me to equip them with a radio system that will work well for us. The radios would need to get as best a range as possible for being lightweight, weather resistant, reliable, clear, etc...basically a professional end of radio that will perform for us. We generally ride in less urban areas which can be in treed or hilly, mountainous terrain.

I have looked into FMRS, GMRS, CB, Marine, MURS, HAM, & Commercial handhelds. There's licensing or certification with some, there's yearly cost for others, and quite frankly some of this can become a bit of a hassle for a group of riders who just want to stay in contact with the group during a ride.

As far as I can see, I think our best bet is to go with a MURS handheld because it allows us to select from a few public frequencies and there's no licensing or certification. If there's a better way to go please let me know. I have looked into MURS handhelds but I have to admit I have not found one I like as far as quality of build or reviewed performance. This has led me to wonder if it's possible to get a commercial grade radio and program it to only use MURS frequencies. I am aware that MURS is 2 watt and most commercial radios are 5 watt (which some are programmable to perform on 2 watts). I can't seem to find out what professional cycling teams use but if I were to guess they must have a repeater in their support vehicle so that their radios can remain small and somewhat weak on the output power. We won't have this luxury so we will have to make up for it with more powerful radios that can reach a further distance.

I have come across the Yaesu VX-3R but also realize it is for HAM usage. After reading a few posts it sounds like this radio has a lot of potential for modification. I like how small it is and that it sticks to the 2 watt output required for MURS. Would this be a good choice of radio to modify to the MURS frequencies? Can this even be done?

I need your help to figure out which way I should go here. Our spring training is already in full force and I am starting to feel the pressure of getting something for our group that we can start using.

I look forward to conversing with you and hearing what input you are willing to share.

RK

[NQ6U]

Not an expert in this stuff by any means but MURS does seem to be your best option. As far as radios go, I have a Yaesu VX-2, which is similar to the VX-3, and can attest to it's durability. Buy a programming cable, though, because it's a PITA to program without it. Check before buying Yaesu's software—there is free software available for download for my VX-2, I imagine it's the same for the VX-3

[Jazz003]

Yeah, I'm sure the programming would be a pain on the radio itself, software is usually the better way to go. I've just been looking at the FT-60R and the VX-6R which also look to be quite small but yet more powerful. I just don't know if they can be setup to work as a legal MURS handheld. If there's any other make other than Yaesu someone thinks might be better please let me know.

[WØTKX]

MURS for sure. You may want to monitor the frequencies of interest for a while, and see who may be using them frequently. Antennas on the bicycles may be a good idea, keeping in mind that the FCC rules are probably "Effective Radiated Power", instead of power in watts. But "handie talkie" antennas suck, for the most part.

[K7SGJ]

Not an expert in this stuff by any means but MURS does seem to be your best option. As far as radios go, I have a Yaesu VX-2, which is similar to the VX-3, and can attest to it's durability. Buy a programming cable, though, because it's a PITA to program without it. Check before buying Yaesu's software—there is free software available for download for my VX-2, I imagine it's the same for the VX-3

I agree with Carl. Your best bet is probably MURS. Plus, I don't think it would me FCC muster to put the Yaesu on the multi use bands. A couple of watts @150 MHz will travel a goodly distance. GMRS can get you 5W @ 450-470 (or there abouts) which will do even better. There are many inexpensive units available on Ebay and other such sites. I find them at garage sale all the time, cheap. Keep in mind, GMRS still requires a system license, which may change soon, and the license holder has to be 18 or older. Of course, there are no age limits to use the radios, that I know of anyway. As for cost, I don't know what the filing fess are any more, but are available at the FCC.gov website, I'm sure. Good luck with the team.

[K7SGJ]

MURS for sure. You may want to monitor the frequencies of interest for a while, and see who may be using them frequently. Antennas on the bicycles may be a good idea, keeping in mind that the FCC rules are probably "Effective Radiated Power", instead of power in watts. But "handie talkie" antennas suck, for the most part.

The last I knew, FRS had to have a non removable antenna, but MURS and GMRS can still use an external antenna.

[Jazz003]

Yes, you bring up one of many points I have yet to get to. If we place the radios in our back jersey then our body is effectively blocking the antenna for any communications in front of our bodies. Mounting an antenna to the bike probably would not work for having to mount and dismount our bikes. Mounting it on top of out helmets would be the best, highest, unobstructed place but the extra weight on our necks might not work. I have heard that there are PTT harnesses out there that have a great airtube earpiece, a good finger PTT button and also has an antenna mount that can be clipped to a higher place on clothing on your body. Then all you do is transfer the radios antenna to this clip mount. I have not come across this feature of a harness even though I have looked long and hard for one so maybe it's a fairytale but it does sound like a great idea to help get the antenna more out in the open.

Plus, through my research, it does sound like one needs to make sure they get the best antenna for the setup to maximize performance and range, which is another thing I would need help with. As you can see I am aware of all the decisions and how complex this will be but I am up for this challenge in putting together something what will be awesome to use. Keep the recommendations coming!

[Jazz003]

I just found myself laughing at seeing a cyclist go whipping past with a 2 ft antenna sticking straight up from his helmet! None of our riders would be under 18 yrs of age. But riders do change often in our group so any type of licensing would become a bit of a bother trying to make sure everyone is always covered. What are the ramifications of using a 5 watt radio on MURS? Why the restriction on distance with MURS (especially out in open country where we usually are)?

[K7SGJ]

Yes, you bring up one of many points I have yet to get to. If we place the radios in our back jersey then our body is effectively blocking the antenna for any communications in front of our bodies. Mounting an antenna to the bike probably would not work for having to mount and dismount our bikes. Mounting it on top of out helmets would be the best, highest, unobstructed place but the extra weight on our necks might not work. I have heard that there are PTT harnesses out there that have a great airtube earpiece, a good finger PTT button and also has an antenna mount that can be clipped to a higher place on clothing on your body. Then all you do is transfer the radios antenna to this clip mount. I have not come across this feature of a harness even though I have looked long and hard for one so maybe it's a fairytale but it does sound like a great idea to help get the antenna more out in the open.

Plus, through my research, it does sound like one needs to make sure they get the best antenna for the setup to maximize performance and range, which is another thing I would need help with. As you can see I am aware of all the decisions and how complex this will be but I am up for this challenge in putting together something what will be awesome to use. Keep the recommendations coming!

There are also VOX and Bluetooth interfaces you can adapt to handhelds, too. The PTT and ext audio in, and headphone out are usually brought out through a mini stereo, and a mini mono jack respectively, which could then go to the interface. It just depends on how creative you are and how much $$ you can afford to invest in it.

[K7SGJ]

I just found myself laughing at seeing a cyclist go whipping past with a 2 ft antenna sticking straight up from his helmet! None of our riders would be under 18 yrs of age. But riders do change often in our group so any type of licensing would become a bit of a bother trying to make sure everyone is always covered. What are the ramifications of using a 5 watt radio on MURS? Why the restriction on distance with MURS (especially out in open country where we usually are)?

It's just how the different services are set up, and probably to minimize interference as much as possible. Each person doesn't require a license in the GMRS, just one person holds the license for the group. When you fill out the application, you specify how many units you expect to have 1-5, 5-10, or whatever. If you exceed the 2 watts in the MURS, nothing will probably happen, unless you get caught. Then, anything from a warning on up. Plus, if you have a ham license, that would be in jeopardy as well. It's best to play by the rules.

[Jazz003]

Oh, ok. I didn't realize there was only one holder of the GMRS license for a group of radios - good to know. But GMRS radio build quality really does fall short for any of them I have seen which leads me back to finding a solid radio and modifying it to work with whatever type of service we decide on.

The wireless idea for earpiece and PTT sounds great but in my line of work (computer tech) I have always found wireless is never as good as wired.

Currently we are backed by some funding so we are willing to spend money on a good system but it has to work well otherwise I may look like I wasted funds.

[NQ6U]

If you exceed the 2 watts in the MURS, nothing will probably happen, unless you get caught. Then, anything from a warning on up. Plus, if you have a ham license, that would be in jeopardy as well. It's best to play by the rules.

Agreed. FCC enforcement may be spotty but the consequences of being one of the unlucky ones who gets caught make it not worth the trouble. Fines routinely start at $7500 per incident. Besides, you'll be surprised how far you can go on a mere 2 watts. Unless you're in need of 10 miles or more of coverage, it should be plenty.

[NA4BH]

What type of terrain do you bike in? Where do you mostly ride? Flat, mountains, trees?

[K7SGJ]

Oh, ok. I didn't realize there was only one holder of the GMRS license for a group of radios - good to know. But GMRS radio build quality really does fall short for any of them I have seen which leads me back to finding a solid radio and modifying it to work with whatever type of service we decide on.

The wireless idea for earpiece and PTT sounds great but in my line of work (computer tech) I have always found wireless is never as good as wired.

Currently we are backed by some funding so we are willing to spend money on a good system but it has to work well otherwise I may look like I wasted funds.

As far as the wireless aspect goes, you're talking a very short distance. Think Bluetooth ear piece or headset. Plus, wireless has a safety advantage in the event of a spill or entanglement. As far as the build goes, there are many Motorola and Standard GMRS HTs around. Even some of the Chinese imports are reportedly fairly rugged; and inexpensive making a replacement not a bank breaker.

[Jazz003]

I own some UHF GP-300's (Motorola) 4W that we tried last year on a group ride up Mt. Baker in Washington. Although being a very bulky & heavy radio they seemed to work ok. They were very clear but I wasn't that happy with their range though. I think we may have been able to go about 4-5 miles if lucky. Sometimes our members in a group can get separated by a fair distance if one has been pushing himself to the point there's nothing left and he has to drop back. I'd like to be able to get a range of at least 8 miles if possible but again we may have to sacrifice if there's a radio out there that just meets our needs perfectly.

[NQ6U]

MURS is VHF, which should be advantageous when it comes to distance covered with a given wattage RF out.

[Jazz003]

NA4BH:
We ride mostly on out of town roads out in the suburbs on less-travelled roadways. We tend to take trips to more remote areas to get some serious riding in which can be in parkways (treed) and mountainous climbs. We basically go through the whole gamut of terrain (open and flat to hilly in winding valleys) as we tend to like new scenery instead of the regular circuits that can get a bit boring at times.

[K7SGJ]

I own some UHF GP-300's (Motorola) 4W that we tried last year on a group ride up Mt. Baker in Washington. Although being a very bulky & heavy radio they seemed to work ok. They were very clear but I wasn't that happy with their range though. I think we may have been able to go about 4-5 miles if lucky. Sometimes our members in a group can get separated by a fair distance if one has been pushing himself to the point there's nothing left and he has to drop back. I'd like to be able to get a range of at least 8 miles if possible but again we may have to sacrifice if there's a radio out there that just meets our needs perfectly.

I doubt you'll find that in a package that is manageable size wise and power requirement wise. The thing here, is to make up for the lower power, with a more efficient antenna, which is doable. A bike mount gain antenna for the 450 band is not all that big and I would think very manageable. Don't forget, the higher power the radio, the bigger the batteries, or shorter the operating time. There is always a tradeoff somewhere. The secret will be finding the best fit for your requirements.

[Jazz003]

Yeah, I figured VHF would be the way to go. I used to work in forestry and was quite impressed with the 5W VHF handhelds we used.

[Jazz003]

Yes I agree. We need to balance all the tradeoffs so that in the end we have an efficient, well operating system!

[Jazz003]

I do like the safety aspect of a wireless earpiece and PTT button but it's that many more batteries or docking to charge to worry about. Having a fully charged battery but forgetting to top-up an earpiece that dies half-way through a ride would be a huge hassle. I think we've come up with a good way to route the wires around our bodies so they are not restricting and also not loose to catch on things.

[WØTKX]

A lot of the blister pack radios are combo FRS and GMRS radios. Some of these have removable antennas that can accept an external antenna, technically not legal on FRS, possibly OK on GMRS. Also, with a group license, you can put up a repeater.

Is there an existing repeater in your area, and could you use it? If not, can you handle the expense?

Keep in mind the Tech Class ham exam is very easy, and if this is not a commercial venture... it might be the best thing to do. When all else fails... :lol:

[Jazz003]

Hmm, I have been told by a local radio shop that HAM operations would not be included with what we want to do as a cycling group. I had my disbeliefs about what he had to say but I wasn't completely sure. I think this is one of the reasons I posted here because it was a little unclear to me. I have been wanting to get my own HAM license for a couple of years now but still have not done so.

I'm not sure our group would be up to making everyone go and get a license (especially as riders join and leave our team quite regularly).

As far as a repeater goes, I don't think we are at that stage yet to have a support vehicle with us on all rides (this is where we would mount a mobile repeater), so until then, we will need to count on more power in the handhelds to get us the distance we need.

Of the Yaesu line, which would best meet our needs (and why?): VX-36, VX-6R, or the FT-60R?

Or, is there yet a better radio we should be thinking of using?

[WØTKX]

Sure, there could be confusion regarding the ham thing, but as long as the bicycle group is NOT commercial, you will be legal. There are Chinese HT's to consider, and they are very inexpensive. A lot of my local friends have them, and like them. They all are under $125. Yupper, cheap!

Wouxun UV2D is a VHF/UHF dual bander with 5/4 watts, near the top of the pricing at about $90-125, depending.

Baofeng UV3rR is a VHF/UHF dual bander with about 2 watts, near the bottom of the pricing starting at about $40.

Both will need USB cables to program as they are kind of goofy with menus, that's another $12, typically.

They sell them on Amazon. You can legally monitor the FRS/GMRS frequencies with some of them. Most can be readily modified to transmit illegally, but I wouldn't do that... it's not worth it if you get caught, believe me. And that legal issue is likely to be looked at more strictly than commercial use in a lot of ways.

These companies both seem to have single band models that are a little less, but at those prices the VHF/UHF models are attractive. The Baofeng models even come in colors like red and yellow. I've heard a lot of them on the air, and they sound good... folks are happy with an HT that is almost "throw away".

Does your riding group operate as a "for profit" or "non profit"? Even if it's attached to a cycling shop or manufacturer, if it's not directly involved with money compensation, and especially "over the air", you should be cool. If the name of the group is the same as a shop, you might want to change the riding group name... but still.

Oh, and if so, what political leanings? You could sign up as a 501(c)(4) corporation? I kid, I kid! :lol:

[WX7P]

I've got two Baofeng UV-5R plus radios and I'm really happy with both of them.

There are about $48 on Amazon now.

Dave is right, the programming is funky, but for my use it's not an issue. I really don't talk to anyone here in the Corn Desert anyway.

You can get one of those and if you decide that vhf/uhf is not our bag, you're not out much.

[WX7P]

BTW, you don't need to capitalize "ham".

We're not THAT important.

[WØTKX]

HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM! :neener:

[Jazz003]

I am a little hesitant to go with Chinese products at this point. I have seen the models you guys just mentioned and have also read that people are pretty impressed with them. But I'm just not so sure if it would be best to go this route if the our group wants to make sure we are getting "professional end" product. I don't mind going with a radio that might cost more if it is designed to perform well in all areas for us. Like I mentioned before, we do have some funding that will help pay for the system we choose. If we place the radios in our rear jersey pocket then they will get wet from rain or even perspiration so being able to handle all the weather conditions would be a plus. Lock knobs or being able to put the buttons on hold would also be good so that we are not changing settings while we are on the go and digging for food in our back pockets.
We are non-commercial, non-profit, and not tied to any sport stores (for team name). This keeps things pretty simple for us and I can see how it would do the same for radio usage and licensing.

[WX7P]

I'd still go with the cheap radios because you can always sell them if they don't work out for you at minimal loss. Dumping a used Yaesu or Icom would cost you more, trust me on that one.

I have two Yaesu VX-2Rs and a VX-8R and the Baofeng are comparable for the use you're talking about, and a lot cheaper. And no, I don't belong to the Beijing chamber of commerce, Stanford Illinois, chapter.

[Jazz003]

The main reason I posted is because I know with enough knowledgeable people here we will put together a system that will work for our cycling needs. Therefore I am not worried about it not working and having to sell the equipment afterwards. Moreover, this way of using a forum really was my only option to gather the best info because storefronts only want to sell you what they carry or I end up talking to someone who appears to "know it all" but in the end I dig up contradicting stuff to what he said.

WU9G, I appreciate your input on the comparison of the cheaper models and will definitely take this into consideration because really I am just looking for something in the end that works, period. And to know that it is going to be solid for our needs.

Keep the info & recommendations coming! This is getting exciting!

[K7SGJ]

I am a little hesitant to go with Chinese products at this point. I have seen the models you guys just mentioned and have also read that people are pretty impressed with them. But I'm just not so sure if it would be best to go this route if the our group wants to make sure we are getting "professional end" product. I don't mind going with a radio that might cost more if it is designed to perform well in all areas for us. Like I mentioned before, we do have some funding that will help pay for the system we choose. If we place the radios in our rear jersey pocket then they will get wet from rain or even perspiration so being able to handle all the weather conditions would be a plus. Lock knobs or being able to put the buttons on hold would also be good so that we are not changing settings while we are on the go and digging for food in our back pockets.
We are non-commercial, non-profit, and not tied to any sport stores (for team name). This keeps things pretty simple for us and I can see how it would do the same for radio usage and licensing.

Most of the features you described are available on the Chinese radios mentioned. As far as waterproofing is concerned, I wouldn't worry about the sweat thing, and if they are in a back pack, I don't think that is an issue either, unless your tour takes you under water. Even then, some are submersible up to a foot or more. I don't know about the Wouxun or Baofeng, but you can check the specs. For the price, you may want to get a couple of them to try out and see if they give you the coverage you need. Again, if you go with a new commercial rig, the more features you add, the price goes up exponentially. For the most part, a five watt rig of any manufacture will cover about the same distance. The limiting factor being the receiver sensitivity, which you can see by looking at the specs. You probably won't see a great difference between rigs. And as I mentioned earlier, the most effective way to increase your range, both from a $$ standpoint and extra weight and power requirements, is to add an external antenna somewhere on the bike. I'm not sure of the need to put the radios in a back pack, but they, too, can be mounted on the bike, and then just use a wired or wireless headset.

[WX7P]

The main reason I posted is because I know with enough knowledgeable people here we will put together a system that will work for our cycling needs. Therefore I am not worried about it not working and having to sell the equipment afterwards. Moreover, this way of using a forum really was my only option to gather the best info because storefronts only want to sell you what they carry or I end up talking to someone who appears to "know it all" but in the end I dig up contradicting stuff to what he said.

WU9G, I appreciate your input on the comparison of the cheaper models and will definitely take this into consideration because really I am just looking for something in the end that works, period. And to know that it is going to be solid for our needs.

Keep the info & recommendations coming! This is getting exciting!

My name is Janet for the record.

I know some of this may sound a little harsh, but if your really want to go cheap, go to a thrift store and get some FRS radios.

I used to live in CA, and those things were always there for about 5 bucks at the local junk store. I can't imagine you'd use much transmit time and if one of those breaks, throw it away and get another one.

[KK4AMI]

Speaking as an "out of shape" guy, Voice and VOX would be pretty useless to me, unless you would want to listen to me doing my heavy breathing "Percy the Pervert" imitation. What about MURS radio data modems? How much conversation do you anticipate? The data modems might require far less power depending on your data sampling rates. They maybe could be hooked to a smart phone to give a GPS position and map display of each rider, as well as a transponder code containing name of rider, speed, status, etc. Mount the cell phone on the handlebars so you can glance at it and punch buttons to change your status code. Kinda like
1. Lets Stop
2. Lets Eat
3 Slowing Down
4. Mechanical Failure

and etc. http://www.raveon.com/rv_m7_vm.html



(http://www.raveon.com/personal_locator.html)

[WØTKX]

Based on what I'm reading, what would be wrong with using PoC (PTT cellular) with a Milspec style rugged phones in a group plan?

I know radio is sexier, but I've used the Nextel/Sprint methods in the past in work environments.
With the "group talk" feature and such, it was instantaneous, with plenty of hands free stuff.

Besides, cell phones are radios. Just sayin'. :lol:

[AE1PT]

By the time this thread got to 30 posts, it has become repetitive and silly. The OP wants "professional." This is about a bunch of people riding bikes--not the Sheriff's office, EMS or search and rescue coming to pick up one of your broken participants... Various members of this forum have exhaustively enumerated the sensible options. As a an answer to using amateur equipment without each station holding a license--that is impractical for a variety of reasons. Modifying them to consumer frequencies is not an option either--unless you want to risk eating tens of thousands of dollars in fines. Your choice.

There are a plethora of very hardy, water resistant/proof handy talkies out there for reasonable money, and good range. You cannot have everything in one package. Deal with that--we amateurs understand that concept. It's why we have lots of radios for different purposes. Everything is made off the Pacific Rim these days--it does not matter whose name is on the label. Deal with that too. You can pick this thing to death, but there is not really anything more to be said that is helpful.

At the rate it's going someone soon is going to suggest D-STAR with APRS... :hand:

The permit for several of the services is around $100. It covers everyone. Spend the money, go get a shitload of little radios, and go have a good time riding your bikes. If one quits no big loss. If someone gets out of range of the others, what's the big deal? Chances are that there is some cell coverage...

[/offzedhat] Taking off my cranky Zed reply hat now...

[KC2UGV]

Yes, you bring up one of many points I have yet to get to. If we place the radios in our back jersey then our body is effectively blocking the antenna for any communications in front of our bodies. Mounting an antenna to the bike probably would not work for having to mount and dismount our bikes. Mounting it on top of out helmets would be the best, highest, unobstructed place but the extra weight on our necks might not work. I have heard that there are PTT harnesses out there that have a great airtube earpiece, a good finger PTT button and also has an antenna mount that can be clipped to a higher place on clothing on your body. Then all you do is transfer the radios antenna to this clip mount. I have not come across this feature of a harness even though I have looked long and hard for one so maybe it's a fairytale but it does sound like a great idea to help get the antenna more out in the open.

Plus, through my research, it does sound like one needs to make sure they get the best antenna for the setup to maximize performance and range, which is another thing I would need help with. As you can see I am aware of all the decisions and how complex this will be but I am up for this challenge in putting together something what will be awesome to use. Keep the recommendations coming!

Cycle mounted antennas work fine. Mount on the rear chainstay, with a mirror mount bracket. I can post a pic later to show you.

MURS is the best option here, but I don't think that any ham radios are certificated for that service. The pro radios (Like the motorolas), might be, and can be programmed to work. GMRS is also a good option, and it's a single license for the group, I believe.

[KA9MOT]

Your Yeasu choices are out. You can not use amateur radio rig on non-amateur frequencies. Your Motorolas would be a perfect choice. Get VHF and there is an option in the programming to set the power to your requirements.

As was mentioned earlier, enforcement is spotty, but people get popped all of the time and the fines are extreme.

[N8YX]

Here's what 'DSG and I did - bear in mind we're not weight weenies. Rather, cross-country trail riding and bikepacking is our forte and our bicycles are equipped to the point that a few more pounds of radio gear simply won't bother us.

Current state - ham radio:

1x VX7R, 1x VX6. Antennas are the stock "ducks" which came with each. The radios use the same batteries so one spare between them covers the day's activities. Yaesu's external speaker/mic is clipped to our lapels and works, but we would like a hands-free solution. The Yaesus are submersible.

Current state - MURS:

I snagged a bunch of Motorola Spirit 220s plus an equal number of R/S 19-1210 2ch base units. These are set up on common channels and incorporate PL squelch. The Radio Shack mobile units are set up in our ham shack and two will make their way into our vehicles, alongside 'DSG's 2/220/440 setup and my dualbander. The Spirits are also waterproof.

Mounting:

A combination of Arkon and Ram plastic mount hardware was used to fashion bar mounts. These will easily clamp on to most 1" diameter handlebars, and a Paul stem light mount is used on our Fargos for attaching the clamps as their Woodchipper handlebars are too large (31.8mm) at the stem clamp section.

Future state - ham:

I was considering the purchase of VX8s due to their Bluetooth capabilities but ran across a company (Pryme) that sells Bluetooth dongles for the VX6/7 and a number of other handhelds. They also allow fitment of a PTT switch. 'DSG is going to hook us up with a pair of sports-style Bluetooth earpieces and that will allow cordless, hands-free operation.

We're also looking into putting up a multiband WIRES node for towpath ham users and encouraging other area amateurs to do the same.

Future state - MURS:

If the Pryme BT- series dongles prove themselves workable for our needs I'm going to order a pair of them for the Spirits.

As far as batteries go...our bikes are equipped with dynohubs to run our lighting systems. A voltage doubler/rectifier/low-dropout regulator setup tucked away in the handlebar bag mount tubing will allow for 5 or 10VDC at 300/150ma; which is fine for charging the Bluetooth stuff, our cell phones or the HT batteries.

Pix of all this stuff later. We're heading out to use it in a few.

[WX7P]

^^^

This is the guy you need to talk to, not the rest of us idiots.

[NQ6U]

^^^

This is the guy you need to talk to, not the rest of us idiots.

A-yup. I will say no more on this topic.

[WØTKX]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4n2Ckl5dNEGaua5Gq5IySGdc_sbMbO jDIXOy16RqcNPxmXu0BAg

[N8YX]

^^^ was me in the driveway all day long today, building a wiring harness for the electronic gauges on 'DSG's Valkyrie Tourer.

[K7SGJ]

^^^ was me in the driveway all day long today, building a wiring harness for the electronic gauges on 'DSG's Valkyrie Tourer.

What he's holding doesn't look like any Pace system I've ever seen, Weller, maybe.

[WØTKX]

Ooops, that picture belongs in the gun thread, eh? ;)

[K7SGJ]

Ooops, that picture belongs in the gun thread, eh? ;)

Yep, after all, it is associated with a magazine.

[N8YX]

What he's holding doesn't look like any Pace system I've ever seen, Weller, maybe.

Was a big honkin' 140w Weller, to be exact. No way I'm going to take the Pace equipment out to the drive/garage and risk damaging it.

[K7SGJ]

Was a big honkin' 140w Weller, to be exact. No way I'm going to take the Pace equipment out to the drive/garage and risk damaging it.

Chickenshit :stickpoke:

[WØTKX]

Careful, he has lots of real guns. :shifty:

[KK4AMI]

A-yup. I will say no more on this topic.

I agree. N8YX is pure radio poetry on sprockets!

[Jazz003]

Hi guys!
Thanks for all the responses.

N8YX: Awesome info on the more permanent aspect of setup. I also am a Randonneur cyclist (part time) and this type of radio setup would be perfect for the long-hauls (600+ miles), especially rigging up the dynos to charge the whole system. However, for us we need to stick to something that will be "on-body" so that when we do dismount we are still "intact" for communication, especially if we need to do a quick bike change from the support vehicle.

KA9MOT: The Yaesu's are out because they cannot be programmed to work on the MURS frequencies or that to do a reprogramming like this is illegal?

[WØTKX]

It's not legal, but amazingly easy to achieve, not so much with newer Yaesu HT's.

Like the 10/11 meter rigs, in the 26-30 Mhz range. It's not legal, but it's easy.

You've been warned, but misfits don't judge. Well, most of 'em. :lol:

[Jazz003]

W0TKX: Why is it not legal if all I really am doing is trying to use a better constructed radio? If I was to use the VX-3R and program it to only use MURS frequencies, and it already operates at the 2 watt level then how is it breaking any laws? Sorry if I sound naïve but I am fairly new to all this jargon.

[n6hcm]

W0TKX: Why is it not legal if all I really am doing is trying to use a better constructed radio? If I was to use the VX-3R and program it to only use MURS frequencies, and it already operates at the 2 watt level then how is it breaking any laws?

click here and scroll down to the bottom of the page. (http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/multi-use-radio-service-murs-0) Radios used for MURS must be certified by the FCC. Amateur radio equipment isn't certified for this.

[N8YX]

If you're looking for MURS rigs, go with the Spirit.

Seriously.

That thing is built for commercial duty, is fairly lightweight and you can get a variety of speaker-mic/earpiece setups for them. I'll post a few examples later.

Now for the million-dollar question:

Are you or any of your team planning to use the new Shimano Di2 shifters on your bikes? By "new", I refer to the ones coming out which are plug-and-play, incorporating smart technology to register themselves to each other. If so, you may wish to get ahold of a set then equip a test bicycle with them and operate your comms gear at full power in the vicinity of the bicycle, on all frequencies you plan to utilize. Should the various interconnecting cables between battery, shifter levers and shifters be a quarter-wave or multiples thereof at your intended frequencies you may experience erratic behavior of the group.

Older Di2 and cable-pulled derailleurs are of course immune to the effects of RF ingress. I'll wager this wasn't a tested-for condition, however, when the "smart" version was being developed.

[KK4AMI]

If you're looking for MURS rigs, go with the Spirit.

Seriously.

That thing is built for commercial duty, is fairly lightweight and you can get a variety of speaker-mic/earpiece setups for them. I'll post a few examples later.

Now for the million-dollar question:

Are you or any of your team planning to use the new Shimano Di2 shifters on your bikes? By "new", I refer to the ones coming out which are plug-and-play, incorporating smart technology to register themselves to each other. If so, you may wish to get ahold of a set then equip a test bicycle with them and operate your comms gear at full power in the vicinity of the bicycle, on all frequencies you plan to utilize. Should the various interconnecting cables between battery, shifter levers and shifters be a quarter-wave or multiples thereof at your intended frequencies you may experience erratic behavior of the group.

Older Di2 and cable-pulled derailleurs are of course immune to the effects of RF ingress. I'll wager this wasn't a tested-for condition, however, when the "smart" version was being developed.

Whoa! A whole new career field? EMI testing for bicycles?

[Jazz003]

If you're looking for MURS rigs, go with the Spirit.

Seriously.

That thing is built for commercial duty, is fairly lightweight and you can get a variety of speaker-mic/earpiece setups for them. I'll post a few examples later.

Now for the million-dollar question:

Are you or any of your team planning to use the new Shimano Di2 shifters on your bikes? By "new", I refer to the ones coming out which are plug-and-play, incorporating smart technology to register themselves to each other. If so, you may wish to get ahold of a set then equip a test bicycle with them and operate your comms gear at full power in the vicinity of the bicycle, on all frequencies you plan to utilize. Should the various interconnecting cables between battery, shifter levers and shifters be a quarter-wave or multiples thereof at your intended frequencies you may experience erratic behavior of the group.

Older Di2 and cable-pulled derailleurs are of course immune to the effects of RF ingress. I'll wager this wasn't a tested-for condition, however, when the "smart" version was being developed.

Good question! We've been holding off on the wireless shifting because of slight bugs that needed to be worked out. The Di2's were getting some pretty good reviews last year at the Tour de France but we've decided to wait and possibly purchase new bikes with the new wireless componentry already on them. But you're probably correct, they most likely did not test for frequency disturbance using radios. This would definitely be something worthwhile hearing about in the near future!

[KA9MOT]

KA9MOT: The Yaesu's are out because they cannot be programmed to work on the MURS frequencies or that to do a reprogramming like this is illegal?

The Yeasus are out because it is illegal to use them on MURS frequencies. Also you would discover (as a friend of mine did) that the finals burn up because the antenna won't go there. Amateur Radios are not certified to be in compliance with the spectral purity needed to work those frequencies.

You probably wouldn't be caught....but if you were....

[WØTKX]

Best avoided, but it's there. 'YX has good advice, if you avoid the ham licence.

However, the test is very easy, most people can pass it after a very short time playing with the free practice exams online. And the issues of limitations of the radios all but disappear then, particularly if you can use a repeater system that already exists. Most of them are crying for activity.

YMMV, IMHO.

[N8YX]

Pryme BT-503. Works with most 2-pin Motorola radios and clones:

9765

BT-542. For VX-6/VX7/VX170 and similar Yaesus:

9766

[N8YX]

PTT-5 - hard-wired PTT switch. Attaches to Bluetooth dongle:

9767

BT-PTT. Allows Bluetooth control of PTT function:

9768

[K7SGJ]

Best avoided, but it's there. 'YX has good advice, if you avoid the ham licence.

However, the test is very easy, most people can pass it after a very short time playing with the free practice exams online. And the issues of limitations of the radios all but disappear then, particularly if you can use a repeater system that already exists. Most of them are crying for activity.

YMMV, IMHO.

Don't forget the code test. Oh.................. wait...................................never mind.

[N8YX]

Motorola Spirit (SV220) MURS handie. You can find these things by the dozen at any given hamfest. $7 for a new antenna, $30 for a new battery and possibly $2 for a new speaker/mic dust cover are all the maintenance they ever require:

9769

Should Bluetooth not be your forte, several speaker/mic and headset combinations are available for the rigs:

9771

9772

97739770

[N8YX]

Midland GXT900. These are dual-band FRS/GMRS radios, and I -think- the Pryme BT-503 will work with them; I plan to call Pryme and find out. As is the case with the Spirits, there are a number of headset/speaker-mic options available:

9774

[N8YX]

One thing to consider: Will a bicycle team need to be in communication with just each other - or will they need to liaise with a chase or support vehicle? If the latter case you'll need a mobile radio which is legal for use in the service(s) you plan to operate and you'll also need some type of vehicle-mounted antenna. I would steer clear of magnet-mount versions. A Larsen NMO mount commercial VHF or UHF 5/8w vertical would be ideal for such an application.

[WØTKX]

Those Midlands work well. Sold a lot of them when Shackled at The Shack.

The Sprints may be available for rent from a conference rental place, to check them out... I recognize the pictures. I've used them for comms when doing AV work at bigger commercial shows. Beefy, hard to break, long battery life.

[Jazz003]

N8YX: This is very good information -super helpful! And thanks for the pictures. I will start looking around for these (or try to rent them to check out their performance). Yes, we will have a support vehicle on occasion so we also plan on purchasing a mobile radio with a decent non-magnetic antenna. If we had a dedicated communications person who took care of all the electronics we would probably give bluetooth a try but seeing as I can foresee riders forgetting to charge a headset or PTT button Bluetooth may not be the best option at this time.

[Jazz003]

What do you guys think about the Wouxon KG-UV6D handhelds?

They are being sold as a multi-function radio (one of which is MURS) and it looks to be smaller, lighter, and have an impressive battery life (all of which is more appealing to me for trying to keep the form factor as small and light as possible). Plus, I can step it down to 2W which matches the MURS requirements. It looks to be getting very good reviews for a radio out of China.

[WØTKX]

Yes it is, but it may be a gray area on legality if it is setup to transmit on all it's frequencies. This is easily done, with the programming cable, apparently. So that's that, eh? As alluded to in previous posts on this thread. Other than that, it's a good choice. :agree:

If I got one, I might go for the yellow or red colored case. Just for fun.

Don't need it, as I've had a Yaesu VX-5 for a long time. It's beatup, but works great. I rarely use it anymore.

[Jazz003]

Yes it is, but it may be a gray area on legality if it is setup to transmit on all it's frequencies. This is easily done, with the programming cable, apparently. So that's that, eh? As alluded to in previous posts on this thread. Other than that, it's a good choice. :agree:

If I got one, I might go for the yellow or red colored case. Just for fun.

Don't need it, as I've had a Yaesu VX-5 for a long time. It's beatup, but works great. I rarely use it anymore.

I know you mentioned the Wouxon earlier on in this thread, I think it was the UV2D. I did see that model but it looks to be an older one because not many places carry it anymore. I did like the smaller size of it compared to the UV6D and it seemed to be very similar in performance, bands, and output. How would you compare the two and if given the choice for our type of needs, which one would you choose?

[WØTKX]

I have not had any face time with either, but I'm tempted. They are very similar.

It's time to buy something, eh? :stickpoke:

:lol:

And get your ham license anyway, dammit! :neener:

[Jazz003]

I have not had any face time with either, but I'm tempted. They are very similar.

It's time to buy something, eh? :stickpoke:

:lol:

And get your ham license anyway, dammit! :neener:

I know! it's on my list of things to get done.

By the way, love Black Adder! I think it was either sea3on 2 or 3 that was my favourite. Where he was sporting the short beard and was all cocky and smart! And then that daft, buffoon "House" character -he was great!

[WØTKX]

I'm a British Comedy fanboy. Ever see 'The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin"?

Here's something great from Hugh Laurie... Written by his comedic partner Stephen Fry. :lol:

http://youtu.be/TBQAuw4NYLA


http://youtu.be/TBQAuw4NYLA

[N8YX]

Real-world experience with our Yaesus the other evening:

Our club sponsored a ride up the Ohio-Erie Towpath Trail from a point roughly 3mi from our house to Summit Lake (downtown Akron), back south to the southern edge of my town then north again to the start point. 'DSG was running late so I left her VX6 out with her bike goodies and hit the trail with my VX7.

We usually operate on 223.640 simplex, a spot on your dial we'd someday like to see referred to as the National Bicycle Mobile Simplex Frequency. Both radios were set to 50mW output - which works nice if we're doing lead/drag comms in a closely spaced pack of cyclists.

Nicki was told to begin calling for me as soon as she got on the trail. I finally managed to pick her up at 1/8mi distance; this using the stock Yaesu antennas on each rig. Obviously, we're going to have to QRO a bit in order to be heard at distances there.

Contrast this with a test I did in October 2011: On a misty, drizzly evening I took my VX7 and a Comet flex-whip along with me on a ride to Summit Lake. 'DSG manned the fixed station: An FT-726R on 2M simplex at 10w out, using a three-band vertical with the base at 45ft. At the northern end of the lake (8 mi distance by air) I had her at S-9 to 10/S-9 and I was S5-S7 with 5w to the whip.

Gain and height are your friends at these frequencies. If this weekend turns out good for rides we'll try some distance work at 222 and see exactly how far we can separate while maintaining a copyable signal.

[Jazz003]

Real-world experience with our Yaesus the other evening:

Our club sponsored a ride up the Ohio-Erie Towpath Trail from a point roughly 3mi from our house to Summit Lake (downtown Akron), back south to the southern edge of my town then north again to the start point. 'DSG was running late so I left her VX6 out with her bike goodies and hit the trail with my VX7.

We usually operate on 223.640 simplex, a spot on your dial we'd someday like to see referred to as the National Bicycle Mobile Simplex Frequency. Both radios were set to 50mW output - which works nice if we're doing lead/drag comms in a closely spaced pack of cyclists.

Nicki was told to begin calling for me as soon as she got on the trail. I finally managed to pick her up at 1/8mi distance; this using the stock Yaesu antennas on each rig. Obviously, we're going to have to QRO a bit in order to be heard at distances there.

Contrast this with a test I did in October 2011: On a misty, drizzly evening I took my VX7 and a Comet flex-whip along with me on a ride to Summit Lake. 'DSG manned the fixed station: An FT-726R on 2M simplex at 10w out, using a three-band vertical with the base at 45ft. At the northern end of the lake (8 mi distance by air) I had her at S-9 to 10/S-9 and I was S5-S7 with 5w to the whip.

Gain and height are your friends at these frequencies. If this weekend turns out good for rides we'll try some distance work at 222 and see exactly how far we can separate while maintaining a copyable signal.

Okay, sounds like I'd like to hear your results so keep me posted! Interesting results so far.

[Jazz003]

I'm a British Comedy fanboy. Ever see 'The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin"?

Here's something great from Hugh Laurie... Written by his comedic partner Stephen Fry. :lol:

http://youtu.be/TBQAuw4NYLA


Hugh is so talented! That was great! Never seen it before.

[N8YX]

Okay, sounds like I'd like to hear your results so keep me posted! Interesting results so far.

2w from the MURS (VHF) rigs should reach a half mile to a mile in semi-wooded terrain. An equivalent amount of power at GMRS (UHF) frequencies probably won't give good coverage at that distance due to severe attenuation by foliage.

Not a problem for the street/road racer but it could be for the widely separated bikepacker group.

[WØTKX]

Hugh is so talented! That was great! Never seen it before.

Well, it was appropriate, being Jazz and all. ;)

[Jazz003]

2w from the MURS (VHF) rigs should reach a half mile to a mile in semi-wooded terrain. An equivalent amount of power at GMRS (UHF) frequencies probably won't give good coverage at that distance due to severe attenuation by foliage.

Not a problem for the street/road racer but it could be for the widely separated bikepacker group.

And in open countryside how far do you figure?

[W7XF]

HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM! :neener:
Smithfield, Honeybaked, spiral sliced or canned? :rofl:

[AE1PT]

Have we gotten radar, thermal imaging and 360o googlecams attached to these bikes yet?:irked:

I would have mentioned APRS, but that is already being gnarfled on over in Shit-Shat:

https://forums.hamisland.net/showthread.php/25879-APRS-on-bicycle

[NQ6U]

Have we gotten radar, thermal imaging and 360o googlecams attached to these bikes yet?:irked:

No room, what with the microwave dish.

[N8YX]

And in open countryside how far do you figure?

For UHF (FRS/GMRS) - probably a quarter mile to a mile (bike to bike) depending on antenna and power used. A little farther for bike to chase vehicles owing to their (optimal) antenna arrangement.

We've played around with 440MHz simplex stuff a bit (motorcycle to motorcycle and motorcycle to automobile) and those are the distances typically achieved with a duck on the bike's radio and a decent gain antenna on the car.

[N8YX]

Have we gotten radar, thermal imaging and 360o googlecams attached to these bikes yet?:irked:

Not yet, but I'm looking to mount an FT-817ND or equivalent HF/VHF/UHF portable to my bikepacking setup. Tuner in the Topeak tailbag, fiberglass helical antenna for HF and the aforementioned Comet or Diamond thin whip for 6/2/440...though the MFJ unit sitting in my desk drawer might also work.

Just need to make it waterproof.

And a GoPro camera for recording the journey - especially at night. A number of my bicycling coworkers simply don't fathom how much fun a night ride can be - especially with decent lighting - and there's only one way to show them besides dragging the lot out onto the trail after dark.

[X-Rated]

Oooo. Oooo. Everyone on 432 SSB. Primo.

[Jazz003]

Not yet, but I'm looking to mount an FT-817ND or equivalent HF/VHF/UHF portable to my bikepacking setup. Tuner in the Topeak tailbag, fiberglass helical antenna for HF and the aforementioned Comet or Diamond thin whip for 6/2/440...though the MFJ unit sitting in my desk drawer might also work.

Just need to make it waterproof.

And a GoPro camera for recording the journey - especially at night. A number of my bicycling coworkers simply don't fathom how much fun a night ride can be - especially with decent lighting - and there's only one way to show them besides dragging the lot out onto the trail after dark.

I second the "funness" comment on night riding! It's truly a blast!

[K0RGR]

I don't see where the KG-UV6D or any of the other Wouxuns are Part 95 certified - MURS, GMRS and FRS are all under Part 95, not 90. The Wouxuns are all part 90 if you have a commercial mobile radio license. I wish the Chinese rigs were Part 95.

Legally, I think your best bet is MURS. There are indeed, public GMRS repeaters and if you're in an area where they exist, that might be a better idea. As for things that will work but are illegal - you're on your own. If you get caught using a ham rig or a Part 90 radio for Part 95, you will get a fairly stiff fine (up to $10,000 a day per radio) and risk losing any other FCC licenses you might have. Those of us who have ham tickets consider that to be a pretty big risk.

Regardless of the marketing hype - the range of two HT's on any band is going to be about 1 mile on flat terrain. A normal range calculation would say that a VHF or UHF radio with an antenna height of about 4 feet would have a radio horizon of about 2.8 miles. You can work another station whose own radio horizon reaches yours, so the physical limit would be 5.6 miles. But that assumes nothing in the way to absorb the signal, which isn't reality at 4 feet off the ground. That same radio from the top of Pike's peak would have a radio horizon of 166 miles, and could work any station whose own radio horizon was within 166 miles. You could work someone on another 14,000 foot mountain 2 X 166 or 322 miles away. And yes, that actually works. The astronauts on the Space Shuttle used standard Motorola HT's and antennas taped to a porthole to work hams on the ground, with ease. I used to talk to my wife on FRS when she went to Wal Mart about three miles from our house - but our house was on a hill overlooking Wal Mart.

Now, take a typical mobile. My antenna tops out at 8 feet, so the radio horizon from my pickup truck is 1.41 X the square root of 8, or about 4 miles. I should be able to work any similarly equipped mobile in a range of 8 miles. But if I am working a repeater with an antenna on a 300' tower, the repeater has a horizon of about 25 miles, and if you add my 4 miles to that, I should be able to work that repeater for about 30 miles - which is probably a good conservative estimate. I could work another mobile 30 miles on the other side of that repeater, or 60 miles from me. Two base stations with 50 foot antennas could stretch that range at least another 20 miles, for a total of 80 miles.

Beyond MURS, your options are seriously cellphones or satellite phones. If money is no object, the satellite phones might not be a bad option.

[WØTKX]

YEa, I thought of cellphones too. But, Ham Radio Always Saves the Day. Or Something? :shifty: