Monarchy or Republic/Democracy?

[N2NH]

That's much too simplistic of course, but for the sake of discussion, let's narrow the field to that.

I've seen the thread Cor posted on the changing of the guard in his countries monarchy. He feels that the government of his country is good as it is, monarchy and all, yet we seem to not agree. I guess, the supposition is that Democracy and being headed by a President is something that we as Americans feel is a better form of government.

As I predicted, we as Americans do not really understand what this means to those who still have Kings and Queens.

What are the advantages to having a Monarchy as opposed to our form of government?

That depends?

Among other things, one leader for a fairly long period of time. That contributes to stability. Other world leaders do not have to start from scratch the way they do when we elect a new president. Another is a person who will have experience when things get tough. Experience he can draw on and other countries who know him and can help with relationships forged over years and decades, something that we can not do changing leaders every 4 to 8 years. That is why FDR could do many of the things he did and no other president has been able to do the same.

It is also, of course, cultural. We believe that anyone can become president. That is a lot less likely recently and we've come to know that. We tend to think that the 'class' system fosters royalty, yet there is more upward mobility in Europe now than here in the US. The idea that anyone can become president comes from that idea of a "classless" society, but is that really true? If you become rich, do you not have privileges that those poorer than you do not have? Is that not a sort of American royalty? Same for the famous? Does Lindsay Lohan get the same treatment as say, Jane Doe who works at Dunkin Donuts for minimum wage? And isn't a millionaires son, who will inherit his families fortune and usually the family business, is he so different from royalty?

In Europe, part of the idea of royalty is that you are born into your position. All European royalty, at least that which is recognized as royalty, originates in Germany. It comes from a lineage that you must be born into. Do you believe in DNA? Well, it pretty much is the same idea. Better yet, the children of royalty know from a very early age what is expected from them and are trained for that job while growing up.

This isn't so much, which is better and which is worse, but more about why Europe has a royalty, and does being born into royalty make you qualified to be a head of state - even figuratively. I'll let those who have a comment make them and I'll try to give more reasons for why royalty isn't a bad idea although it does have a few bad points as I'm sure we'll see.

King George III left a very bad taste in our mouths, but we shouldn't judge all royals by him.

[WX7P]

No human being is "entitled" to power just by virtue of DNA, under rules set in the 8th Century. That never made any sense to me and still doesn't.

I think in the case of the Euros, and Cor's account confirms it for me, royalty is more of a tradition than anything else.

We, as Americans, don't have same tradition, even though some, for whatever reason, seem to be fascinated with the pomp and circumstance of the royal experience.

Our system, even with imperfections, is better than anything that smacks of a class based system.

[K7SGJ]

NK should be enough of a bad example of "keeping it in the family" to turn everyone off of a Monarchy. Spelled dictatorship, in this case.

[PA5COR]

Our social democracy might have a Monarch, but in reality they just have a very small ruling base.
Our country has 12 provinces read like your individual states each with their own house taking care of the province needs and laws.
THe Government is the House and Senate same as the USA.
The Royalty has been part of the Dutch history for 500+ years now, and abdicated power in the last 100 years to the House and Senate.
The UK Royalty has a lot more power left to influence their politicians decissions.
As John said having a Royalty brings costs but also large income from the trade they pull in on their many foreign visits accompanied by business peeps.
They are one of the oldest monarchies respected worldwide and loved byy the Dutch people, no nonsene, mixing in the people ans always a listening ear for problems.
Glueing the country together in times of distress, and in good times people celebrate it with the Royalty.

One should have been here to know what i really mean.
Our both country's are close in how they are run, you have your temporary "king" in the president, we have a line that goes back more as 500 years.
They led our country in the 80 year battle against Spain, led us in prosperity and into a world power in our Golden age, saw to it that the country always looked after the people.

That is why you see so much Orange when the Queen, now the King, celebrates the birthday.
Friendships—and community—will be formed. For me that’s really what Queen’s Day is all about. It’s not an outburst of patriotism, it’s not even about the popularity of the royal family. It’s about a sense of belonging. For one day, everybody is the same in Holland. Bright orange and barmy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Orange-Nassau

[NQ6U]

A nice theocracy sounds good to me...

—Pope Carlo l

[N8GAV]

A nice theocracy sounds good to me...

—Pope Carlo l

Move to Iran........

[NQ6U]

Move to Iran........

No, I mean a theocracy with me as the head theocrat. That sounds nice.

—Pope Carlo l

[VE7DCW]

A nice theocracy sounds good to me...

—Pope Carlo l

Sorry your eminence....... i'm going to have to agree with Hank as well .....church and state never, and I repeat never,will mix and work together! ..... and Iran,as Hank mentioned,shows how this has become a disaster!

Of course Canada is a constitutional Monarchy with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state as a figure head only.Because of our ties in the British Commonwealth we keep the reighning monarch as a figure head,but as a fully independant country and with our own "made in Canada" constitution a figure head is all she'll be as the Govenor General (the Queen's representative in Canada) will put the stamp of approval at the prime minister's order on any bill or act of parliment passed through same.Oddly,in the 146 years Canada has been it's own country it's worked quite well (we won't talk about the Quebecois ) :)

[NQ6U]

Sorry your eminence....... i'm going to have to agree with Hank as well .....church and state never, and I repeat never,will mix and work together!

Not for you, perhaps, but it could work quite well for me.

—Pope Carlo l

[K7SGJ]

Not for you, perhaps, but it could work quite well for me.

—Pope Carlo l


Will the Nuns be squeezing your beads?

[N2NH]

Not for you, perhaps, but it could work quite well for me.

—Pope Carlo l


Will the Nuns be squeezing your beads?

Those Catholics have all the fun.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001084447/nuncontest_xlarge.jpeg

[N2NH]

No human being is "entitled" to power just by virtue of DNA, under rules set in the 8th Century. That never made any sense to me and still doesn't...

Our system, even with imperfections, is better than anything that smacks of a class based system.

Is our system any different than 'a class based system' anymore?

And what if the DNA means that a royal is more likely to be a better leader? That's pretty much why Europe had their royalty.

[K7SGJ]

You mean like Henry III and King Leopold?

[NA4BH]

Leopold?

http://www.keyframeonline.com/piq/animprofile/1106_a.jpg

[K7SGJ]

Leopold?

http://www.keyframeonline.com/piq/animprofile/1106_a.jpg

You bastid, BASTID I say. That was where I was headed. But if you want to do this solo go ahead, even though it Bugs me.

[AE1PT]

Is our system any different than 'a class based system' anymore?

You really just said that. Wow.

When has it not been a class based system operating to the benefit of special interests?

[n2ize]

Is our system any different than 'a class based system' anymore?

And what if the DNA means that a royal is more likely to be a better leader?


What indicators in DNA are attributed to leadership qualities ?


That's pretty much why Europe had their royalty.

So you are saying that during the Medieval and earlier days they not only knew about DNA but they knew how to test DNA for specific markers that were proved to be connected with leadership quality which is why they had monarchies ?

[n2ize]

You really just said that. Wow.

When has it not been a class based system operating to the benefit of special interests?

Never.

[n2ize]

Those Catholics have all the fun.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001084447/nuncontest_xlarge.jpeg

They have the hottest looking nuns these days.

[N2NH]

Looking at this from a details point of view isn't the answer. People in 1000 BC didn't think in details and the founding fathers didn't either.

Why do we believe that anyone can be a leader? Did we have proof that royalty didn't work and that this would? It was a reaction to a series of bad English kings, culminating in the arrogant overbearing George III. Who, as we know, underestimated the American colonies. So, the answer was a reaction to what they felt was the tyrannical rule George III had over them. Oddly enough, without the French, there would be no America today and we can thank their king, Louis XVI who the fledgling nation ran to for help. When France went through its own revolution, we deserted him - how's that for a great start? Then to show our support for the revolutionaries, we welshed on the debt we owed France since we made the case that what we owed, we owed to the king. Hmmm... why does this all seem so familiar?

Anyway...

Royalty comes out of the idea that certain (if not most) characteristics of a person are inherited, one of them being leadership. It is why a King or Queen must also marry a person with royal stature. There were drawbacks, the royal gene pool being so limited, but in essence, they were right. DNA has proven that.

As Americans, we believe that genes play only an incidental part of our character and that environment and education are more important.

Europeans believe that you are primarily formed through genetics and who your parents were.

That is the basic crux of the matter. I believe that to a great extent it's genes first, education second and environment third.

[PA5COR]

You forgot the Dutch influence as well, French and Dutch helped the USA in existence.



During the American war of Independence the Dutch were active allies of the American rebels. From the island of Sint Eustatius (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Sint_Eustatius) they gave the Thirteen colonies one of the few opportunities to acquire arms. In 1778, British Lord Stormont (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/David_Murray,_2nd_Earl_of_Mansfield) claimed in parliament that "if Sint Eustatius had sunk into the sea three years before, the United Kingdom would already have dealt with George Washington".



The Dutch were the first to salute the flag, and therefore the first to acknowledge the independence of, the United States on 16 November 1776.



The Louisiana Purchase (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase), also known as the "Great Land Acquisition", of 1803, is often seen as one of the most important events in American history after the Declaration of Independence (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence). At the time it had a total cost of $15.000.000,- and it was financed in three ways. First of all by a down payment of $3.000.000,- in gold by the US government, and then two loans, one by the London-based Barings Bank, and one by the Amsterdam based Hope Bank. The original receipt still exists and is currently property of the Dutch ING Group (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/ING_Group), which has its headquarters in Amsterdam.



In 1626, Peter Minuit (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Peter_Minuit) obtained the island of Manhattan from the Indians in exchange for goods with a total value of 60 guilders ($24). He established the town of New Amsterdam, the future New York (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/New_York). The names of some other settlements that were established still exist today as boroughs and neighborhoods of New York: Brooklyn (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Brooklyn) (Breukelen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Breukelen)), Staten Island (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Staten_Island) (named after the Dutch parliament, the 'Staten Generaal (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Staten_Generaal)'), Harlem (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Harlem) (Haarlem (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Haarlem)), Coney Island (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Coney_Island) (Konijnen Eiland, means Rabbit Island) and Flushing (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Flushing,_Queens) (Vlissingen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Vlissingen)) .



At least five American presidents had Dutch ancestry:

Martin van Buren (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Martin_van_Buren), was the eighth President of the United States. He was a key organizer of the Democratic Party and the first president who was not of English, Irish, Scottish, or Welsh descent. He is also the only president not to have spoken English as his first language, but rather grew up speaking Dutch.
Theodore Roosevelt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt), was the 26th President of the United States. Roosevelt is most famous for his personality; his energy, his vast range of interests and achievements, his model of masculinity, and his “cowboy” persona. In 1901, he became President after the assassination of President William McKinley. Roosevelt was a Progressive reformer who sought to move the Republican Party into the Progressive camp.
Franklin D. Roosevelt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt), was the 32nd President of the United States. Elected to four terms in office, he served from 1933 to 1945, and is the only U.S. president to have served more than two terms. A central figure of the twentieth century, he has consistently been ranked as one of the three greatest U.S. presidents in scholarly surveys.
George H. W. Bush (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/George_H._W._Bush) and George W. Bush (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/George_W._Bush), were the 41st and 43rd Presidents of the United States respectively. They count members of the Schuyler family (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Schuyler_family) and the related Beekman family among their ancestors.



Not too happy about the Bush connection though,...

. The Netherlands is the third-largest direct foreign investor in the United States,[3] (https://forums.hamisland.net/#cite_note-3) and the Dutch-American trade and investment relationship is supporting close to 625,000 American jobs[4] (https://forums.hamisland.net/#cite_note-4) with Texas, California and Pennsylvania benefiting most from these Economic Ties (http://www.economicties.org/). The United States is the third-largest direct foreign investor in the Netherlands.

Netherlands – United States relations are used to describe the relations of the United States (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/United_States) and the Netherlands (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Netherlands). The countries were described by former President George W. Bush (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/George_W._Bush) as "brother nations" and by current President Barack Obama (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Barack_Obama) as "closest friends which friendship will never die". Obama has also said that, "Without the Netherlands there wouldn't be a United States of America as everyone knows it now".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_American)

As of 1990, November 16 is "Dutch-American Heritage Day". On November 16, 1776, a small American warship, the Andrew Doria (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Andrew_Doria), sailed into the harbour of the Dutch island of Sint Eustatius (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Sint_Eustatius) in the West Indies (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/West_Indies). Only four months before, the United States had declared its independence from Great Britain (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Great_Britain). The American crew was delighted when the governor of the island ordered that his fort's cannons be fired in a friendly salute. The first ever given by a foreign power to the flag of the United States (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States), it was a risky and courageous act. Indeed, angered by Dutch trading and contraband with the rebellious colonies, the British seized the island a few years later. The Dutch recaptured the island in 1784.[18] (https://forums.hamisland.net/#cite_note-18)


April 19 is Dutch-American Friendship Day, which remembers the day in 1782 when John Adams (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/John_Adams), later to become the second president of the United States (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/President_of_the_United_States), was received by the States General (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/States-General_of_the_Netherlands) in The Hague (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/The_Hague) and recognized as Minister Plenipotentiary (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Minister_Plenipotentiary) of the United States of America. It was also the day that the house he had purchased at Fluwelen Burgwal 18 in The Hague was to become the first American Embassy (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Diplomatic_missions_of_the_United_States) in the world.[19] (https://forums.hamisland.net/#cite_note-19)


The beginnings of the Reformed Church in America (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Reformed_Church_in_America) date to 1628. By 1740, it had 65 congregations in New York (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/New_York) and New Jersey (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/New_Jersey), served by ministers trained in Europe. Schools were few but to obtain their own ministers they formed "Queens College" (now Rutgers University (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Rutgers_University)) in 1766. In 1771, there were 34 ministers for over 100 churches. Until 1764, in at least three Dutch churches in New York City, all sermons were in Dutch; Theodore Roosevelt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt) reports his grandfather (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Grandfather)'s church used Dutch as late as 1810. Other churches with roots in Dutch immigration to the United States include the Christian Reformed Church (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Christian_Reformed_Church_in_North_America), the Protestant Reformed Churches (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Protestant_Reformed_Churches_in_America), the United Reformed Churches (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/United_Reformed_Churches_in_North_America), the Netherlands Reformed Congregations (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Netherlands_Reformed_Congregations), the Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregations (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Heritage_Netherlands_Reformed_Congregations) and the Free Reformed Church (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Free_Reformed_Churches_of_North_America). Along with the Reformed churches, Roman Catholicism (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Roman_Catholicism) is the other major religion of Dutch Americans. Beginning in 1848, a significant number of Roman Catholics from the Dutch provinces of Noord Brabant (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Noord_Brabant), Limburg (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Limburg_(Netherlands)) and southern Gelderland (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Gelderland) went to create many settlements in northeastern Wisconsin (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Wisconsin).


Harmen Jansen Knickerbocker (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Harmen_Jansen_Knickerbocker) was an early Dutch settler of New York's Hudson River Valley (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Hudson_River_Valley).
In art, Willem de Kooning (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Willem_de_Kooning) was a leading Abstract Expressionist (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Abstract_Expressionist) painter, often depicting the human form in violent brush strokes and daring color juxtapositions. Muralist Anthony Heinsbergen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Anthony_Heinsbergen) interior designs are still seen today in most of the world's movie theaters (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Movie_theaters).
In literature, Jan-Willem van de Wetering (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Jan-Willem_van_de_Wetering) is renowned for his detective fiction (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Detective_fiction); his most popular creation being that of Grijpstra and de Gier (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Grijpstra_and_de_Gier). Edward W. Bok (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Edward_W._Bok) was a Pulitzer Prize (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize)-winning autobiographer and magazine editor. He is also credited with coining the term "living room (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Living_room)". Greta Van Susteren (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Greta_Van_Susteren)'s father was a Dutch American. Calvin Ziegler (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Calvin_Ziegler) published poetry in Pennsylvania Dutch (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch) in the 19th Century. Pennsylvania Dutch is German from the Rhineland and not Dutch at all. Prolific poet Leo Vroman (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Leo_Vroman) escaped from Nazi occupied Holland to the Dutch East Indies (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies) to end up in Japanese concentration camps. After the war he immigrated to the US. His Dutch Indonesian (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Indo_people) friend, fellow camp survivor and author Tjalie Robinson (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Tjalie_Robinson) also lived in the US where he founded several cultural institutions. The author Erik Hazelhoff Roelfzema (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Erik_Hazelhoff_Roelfzema), writer of the book Soldier of Orange (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Soldier_of_Orange), was a Dutch resistance fighter, spy and decorated war hero that immigrated to the US after WWII. Born on Java (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Java) in the Dutch East Indies, he died in his home on Hawaii.
In entertainment, actor, presenter (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Presenter) and entertainer Dick Van Dyke (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Dick_Van_Dyke) is of Dutch descent, with a career spanning six decades (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Decade). He is best known for his starring roles in Mary Poppins (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Mary_Poppins_(film)), Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Chitty_Chitty_Bang_Bang_(film)), The Dick Van Dyke Show (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/The_Dick_Van_Dyke_Show) and Diagnosis: Murder (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Diagnosis:_Murder). The X-Men trilogy (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/X-Men_(film)) starred Dutch actress Famke Janssen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Famke_Janssen) and Dutch-descended Rebecca Romijn (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Rebecca_Romijn) who is perhaps best known for her TV-roles on such comedies as Ugly Betty (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Ugly_Betty). Anneliese van der Pol (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Anneliese_van_der_Pol), a singer and actress, is the star of Disney (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Disney)'s Thats so Raven (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Thats_so_Raven). Iconic star Audrey Hepburn (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Audrey_Hepburn) was born in Belgium (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Belgium) to a Dutch expatriate. Musicians Eddie (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Eddie_van_Halen) and Alex van Halen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Alex_van_Halen) are the lead guitarist, respectively drummer and co-founders of the band Van Halen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Van_Halen), born to a Dutch father and Dutch-Indonesian (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Indo_people) mother. Singer Whitney Houston (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Whitney_Houston) had Dutch ancestry. Don Van Vliet, stage name of musician Captain Beefheart (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Captain_Beefheart), changed his middle name from Glen to the preposition to 1965 to honor his Dutch heritage. Actor Mark-Paul Gosselaar (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Mark-Paul_Gosselaar), known from the series Saved by the Bell (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Saved_by_the_Bell), was born to a Dutch father and a Dutch-Indonesian (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Indo_people) mother. Matt Groening (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Matt_Groening), the author of The Simpsons (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/The_Simpsons) and Futurama (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Futurama) has Dutch Mennonite (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Mennonite) ancestors, his family name originating from the Dutch city of Groningen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Groningen_(city)).
In politics, Peter Stuyvesant (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Peter_Stuyvesant) was the last Director-General (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Director-General) of the colony of New Netherland (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/New_Netherland). Stuyvesant greatly expanded the settle of New Amsterdam (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/New_Amsterdam), today known as New York (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/New_York). Stuyvesant's administration built the protective wall on Wall Street (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Wall_Street), and the canal that became Broad Street, known today as Broadway (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Broadway_(New_York_City)). The prestigious Stuyvesant High School (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School) is named after him. Theodore Roosevelt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt) and Franklin Delano Roosevelt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt), presidents of the United States, were not only Dutch descent, but cousins. Martin Van Buren (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Martin_Van_Buren) was another president of Dutch descent. Martin Kalbfleisch (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Martin_Kalbfleisch) served as a US Representative (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/US_Representative) for the state of New York (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/New_York). Today, Pete Hoekstra (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Pete_Hoekstra) is a long-running congressman for the state of Michigan (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Michigan). Jacob Aaron Westervelt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Jacob_Aaron_Westervelt) was a renowned and prolific shipbuilder and Mayor of New York (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Mayors_of_New_York) (1853–1855)
In science and technology, Nicolaas Bloembergen (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Nicolaas_Bloembergen) won the Nobel Prize (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Nobel_Prize) in 1981 for his work in laser spectroscopy (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Laser_spectroscopy). He was also awarded the Lorentz Medal (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Lorentz_Medal) in 1978. Physicists Samuel Abraham Goudsmit (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Samuel_Abraham_Goudsmit) and George Eugene Uhlenbeck (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/George_Eugene_Uhlenbeck) proposed the concept of electron spin (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Electron_spin). Goudsmit was also the scientific head of the Operation Alsos (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Operation_Alsos) mission in the Manhattan Project (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Manhattan_Project). Tjalling Koopmans (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Tjalling_Koopmans) was the recipient of the Nobel Prize in Economics (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Nobel_Prize_in_Economics) in 1975.
In astronomy, Maarten Schmidt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Maarten_Schmidt) pioneered the research of quasars (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Quasars). Astronomer Gerard Kuiper (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Gerard_Kuiper) discovered two new moons (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Moons) in our solar system (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Solar_system) and predicted the existence of the Kuiper belt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Kuiper_belt), which is named in his honor. Popular astronomer Bart J. Bok (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Bart_J._Bok) won the Klumpke-Roberts Award (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Klumpke-Roberts_Award) in 1982 and the Bruce Medal (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Bruce_Medal) in 1977. Jan Schilt (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Jan_Schilt) invented the Schilt photometer (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Photometer).
In sports, baseball player and twice World Series (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/World_Series) champion Bert Blyleven (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Bert_Blyleven) gained fame for his curveball (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Curveball).
In religion, Albertus van Raalte (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Albertus_van_Raalte) was a Reformed Church of America (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Reformed_Church_of_America) pastor who led the Dutch immigrants who founded the city of Holland, Michigan (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Holland,_Michigan) in 1846. Louis Berkhof (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Louis_Berkhof), a Reformed (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Reformed)systematic theologian (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Systematic_theologian), is greatly studied today in seminaries (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Seminaries) and Bible colleges (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Bible_colleges). Herman Hoeksema (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Herman_Hoeksema), a theologian, was instrumental in the series of events that precipitated the creation of the Protestant Reformed Church (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Protestant_Reformed_Church). Prominent Christian (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Christian) author Lewis B. Smedes (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Lewis_B._Smedes) wrote Forgive and Forget (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Forgive_and_Forget:_Healing_the_Hurts_We_Don%27t_D eserve), an influential work discussing a religious view on sexuality (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Human_sexuality) and forgiveness (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Forgiveness).

[N2RJ]

I oppose having a royal family, even a symbolic one. That money could be better spent on things that people need.

[PA5COR]

Try READING posts before commenting, or is it just lack of understanding?
The costs are relative minimal, they bring in much more through trade they bring in, net they deliver money.
What do your Presidents cost?
Looking back at bush, he cost your country trillions and 5000 dead soldiers and 10.000's wounded for life.


I oppose having a royal family, even a symbolic one. That money could be better spent on things that people need.

[N2RJ]

Doesn't matter. Money is just a part of it.

The other part is symbolic.

When a black or other minority person becomes king of your country you can then tell me how good having a monarch as your head of state is.

As much as I don't like Obama's policies, we have a black head of state, and you don't.

[N2NH]

You forgot the Dutch influence as well, French and Dutch helped the USA in existence...

You are quite right Cor. An oversight. I know that New York City also had it's origins in the Dutch who settled there first. Many of the streets, especially in Brooklyn, were named after people and places that are Dutch.

There is a good reason I bring up heredity. While Europeans had no idea that DNA existed, they were certain that children inherited traits from their parents. Including leadership.

[PA5COR]

Do i detect some hidden embarrasment for President Obama?
Money WAS your beef, now that doesn't work switch over to another fallacy?
Symbolic we are quite happy for having them for the last 500 years, i know your history is a bit shorter as that but without our Monarchy the USA would not exist.
Our Queen is from Argentina so next fallacy please.



Doesn't matter. Money is just a part of it.

The other part is symbolic.

When a black or other minority person becomes king of your country you can then tell me how good having a monarch as your head of state is.

As much as I don't like Obama's policies, we have a black head of state, and you don't.

[n2ize]

You are quite right Cor. An oversight. I know that New York City also had it's origins in the Dutch who settled there first. Many of the streets, especially in Brooklyn, were named after people and places that are Dutch.

There is a good reason I bring up heredity. While Europeans had no idea that DNA existed, they were certain that children inherited traits from their parents. Including leadership.

The whole idea of elected presidents and representative was to enable the people of the land to be able to have a choice as to who will represent them from the lowest to highest level of government. We now see that method is corruptable as special interests will often override the best interests of the majority. But the same was true of kinds and queens. Wealthy noblemen and others were able to influence kings and queens such they they were driven by special interests.

Not all kings inherited good traits. Many were not good leaders even when their parents were. Some kings were weak in leadership qualities and made lousy leaders despite that their predecessors were strong leaders. Not to mention many illnesses and weak physical charachteristics resulting from the close breeding within royal families. In other words often the attempts to breed in all the "good traits" resulted in the exact opposite effect, very weak traits that resulted in hereditary disease, sickness, and short lives.

Today we know a great deal about DNA and genetics. If there is such thing as a "leadership gene" science will someday provide that answer. In the meantime I feel it was more a matter of expectation and learning about leadership and being told since childhood that "you will one day be supreme leader" than predisposition via genetics.

[n2ize]

I oppose having a royal family, even a symbolic one. That money could be better spent on things that people need.

Yes, there is good reason why much of the modern industrialized world has drifted away from monarchy and into more representative forms of government/

[PA5COR]

Some people still don't get it...

[N2NH]

Some people still don't get it...

I agree. One thing is for sure. We didn't have World Wars before "Democracy" replaced Kingdoms.

[WX7P]

I agree. One thing is for sure. We didn't have World Wars before "Democracy" replaced Kingdoms.

What? You ARE kidding, right?

The world was just smaller back in the day.

Even though I'm not too keen on the monarchy concept I understand Cor's point in the modern context.

However, the concept that the world is less stable with the advent of democracy is patently absurd. You're conveniently forgetting how many Euro wars through the centuries? 100 years War ring a bell? Back in those days, Euro WAS the world, really. War only expanded to "the rest of the world" with the advancement of technology.

[N2NH]

What? You ARE kidding, right?

The world was just smaller back in the day.

Even though I'm not too keen on the monarchy concept I understand Cor's point in the modern context.

However, the concept that the world is less stable with the advent of democracy is patently absurd. You're conveniently forgetting how many Euro wars through the centuries? 100 years War ring a bell? Back in those days, Euro WAS the world, really. War only expanded to "the rest of the world" with the advancement of technology.

The world was pretty well 'discovered' by the 1850s. At worse you would have 4 countries going at it. Or an on again, off again war like the 100 year war. The worst was when Europe turned on the French Revolutionaries and then Napoleon. Nearly every country jumped on France, since if they go on with their revolt it would be a threat to European Monarchy. Eventually Nappy was given a time-out. But the die was cast.

[N2RJ]

Some people still don't get it...

So when are you going to have a black head of state?

We have one.

[PA5COR]

Tryng to obfuscate the real question?
First you thought they were too expensive, Fail
Then you didn't like inherrited ruling, Fail
Then it was inherited money, Fail.
Now it's we have a coloured president nananananana.... pityfull.
Well, you also had Bush.....:stirpot::neener:




So when are you going to have a black head of state?

We have one.

[n2ize]

The world was pretty well 'discovered' by the 1850s. At worse you would have 4 countries going at it. Or an on again, off again war like the 100 year war. The worst was when Europe turned on the French Revolutionaries and then Napoleon. Nearly every country jumped on France, since if they go on with their revolt it would be a threat to European Monarchy. Eventually Nappy was given a time-out. But the die was cast.

As Janet pointed out, the advent of new technologies led to larger scale wars. WW1 was a showcase for the airplane which opened up vast new possibilities with regards to war. Attacks and raids could now be conducted much faster and more suddenly and larger areas could be covered in a shorter amount of time. By the time WW2 came about the technology was far more advanced. Fast fighter planes that achieved incredible speeds (for the time), large scale multi engine bombers, aircraft carriers, advanced warships, early radar, aerial bombs, advanced weaponry, etc. Prior to all list large scale attacks and rapid advances were not possible.

I am sure that kings and queens would have adapted these technologies just as readily as presidents, dictators, etc. Monarchies were constantly at war. They just didn't have the advanced technologies to launch effective "world wide wars".

[n2ize]

The world was pretty well 'discovered' by the 1850s. At worse you would have 4 countries going at it. Or an on again, off again war like the 100 year war. The worst was when Europe turned on the French Revolutionaries and then Napoleon. Nearly every country jumped on France, since if they go on with their revolt it would be a threat to European Monarchy. Eventually Nappy was given a time-out. But the die was cast.

Why did the French revolt against their monarchs ? Perhaps there lies a part of the reason why much of the world shifted away from monarchies

[N2NH]

So when are you going to have a black head of state?

We have one.

More important, when is a Carribean Country going to have a white head of state or representative in Miss Universe? I hear there are white people in every one of those countries. We have had black Miss Americas and now we have a black president.

[n2ize]

More important, when is a Carribean Country going to have a white head of state or representative in Miss Universe? I hear there are white people in every one of those countries. We have had black Miss Americas and now we have a black president.

I think some Carribean countries already have.

[N2RJ]

More important, when is a Carribean Country going to have a white head of state

That's kind of interesting because a few of them still have the British Monarch as the head of state. Some are also French territories and some are Dutch. So yes, quite a few DO have white heads of state.

In Trinidad we have had one white acting Prime Minister and Jamaica has had mixed race prime ministers as well. Michael Manley was a self described "mulatto" but he looked pretty white.



or representative in Miss Universe?

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing one or two. But they usually choose a mixed race representative because it represents the melting pot.


I hear there are white people in every one of those countries. We have had black Miss Americas and now we have a black president.

Yes, there are native born white people in those countries. That's not really anything new.

[n2ize]

In Trinidad we have had one white acting Prime Minister and Jamaica has had mixed race prime ministers as well. Michael Manley was a self described "mulatto" but he looked pretty white.



Michael Manly was who I was thinking of when I made my comments above. I saw him speak many years ago as City University of New York. He was rather light skinned and Caucasian in appearance.

[WX7P]

There was also Edward Seaga (sp?) in Jamaica.

[n2ize]

There was also Edward Seaga (sp?) in Jamaica.

Yeah, he came in after Manly during a time of violent struggle in Jamaica. Manly was rather opposed to Seaga's conservative leadership. Manly did a lot of good things for the Jamaican people during his tenure as PM.

[N2RJ]

Bob Marley was actually half white too, his dad was a white Jamaican.

[N2RJ]

Yeah, he came in after Manly during a time of violent struggle in Jamaica. Manly was rather opposed to Seaga's conservative leadership. Manly did a lot of good things for the Jamaican people during his tenure as PM.

Probably. But Jamaica, particularly Kingston, is still a mess, crime and poverty wise. The tourist areas like Montego Bay and Negril are nice though.