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W3WN
03-16-2013, 01:12 PM
Background:

Like a lot of clubs, a lot of our on-air activity (as a group) used to be on the club 2 meter repeater, 146.955. Morning & afternoon drive, most evenings & weekends, you could always find someone to talk to. The machine at the time was located (along with a companion 440 machine) on top of an apartment building in next-door Mount Lebanon, using rack space and a tower owned/controlled by the municipal's 911 center.

Until about 4 years ago. The County had started consolidating the local/regional 911 centers (which should have been done in the first place, but that's another story), and eventually had absorbed the Mt. Lebanon facility, which also served nearby communities (including mine). Which also meant they took over the radio room, rack, and tower. They gave the repeater owners (at the time, W3SRL & N3RNX -- N3RNX has since retired, and gave his share of the machines to the club, W3SRL is busy with family & life and has given control of his share to the club as well) a vague early warning, and then 2 weeks notice to clear out.

It's getting a little harder to find homes for repeaters these days, especially at low cost or for free. So the system was down for almost a year until we made arrangements with WPGH-TV Channel 53 to use a dual-band antenna on their tower. (The antenna had been used by the now-defunct WPa DX Association for their now-defunct 2 meter packet cluster... arranged by the Chief Enginner at the time, AD8J). Problem was, that put the repeater roughly 8 miles NE of it's previous location. So the coverage map moved. Doesn't sound like a lot, but remember that this is a very hilly area. Suffice to say, I went from full-quieting on my HT to can't-break-the-squelch on high power.

Price was right, but... we kept looking.

Now: We have gotten an offer from one of the local hospitals, St. Clair Memorial, to locate 955 on their buidling, using their tower. It moves the machine back into our 'membership zone', the hospital is roughly a mile and a half from the apartment building. Plus we gain some height.

There will be some costs involved... the old antenna was in bad shape, and we're leaving the 440 at Channel 53 for now, so we have to buy a new antenna. And a new controller (the two machines currently share one), and some other related odds & ends. But at least, these are all one time costs, and we have a nice war chest from the last few years of our hamfest, so we won't go broke.

No cost to us for the rack space, power, telephone, internet. There will be an MOI drawn up; we will be expected to officially become part of the hospital emergency management scenario, and be available to provide backup communications if something goes kaflooey. In time, we will be asked to provide a dual-band radio to put in their in-house emergency communications room. In time, we may also be offered the hospital's meeting rooms for club meetings. And we may be asked to provide Amateur Radio classes... piece of cake.

So why do I feel uneasy? It's almost too good to be true... but there doesn't seem to be a downside. Oh, if things fall apart, we're going to have clauses in the MOI to make it clear that the club owns the repeater & we take it with us if we're asked to leave (there's also a vague offer that the hospital may be willing to buy some gear for the machine, but personally, unless it's an outright donation to the club, I don't think that would be wise).

Outside of that, though... what am I missing?

HUGH
03-16-2013, 02:47 PM
The VHF & UHF story in the UK is looking the same. In past years, the BBC & ITV would let amateurs use lower portions of their masts for free providing the installations were approved by their own engineers. Now that they no longer own the transmitters or masts, the cost of retaining equipment on these sites has quickly run into thousands of pounds.

The result is decimation of the number of previous repeaters, especially 70cms. In this area we are lucky because the owner of our site favours amateur radio (though he has no licence of his own) and, thanks to my major repairs on the brick & slate equipment hut itself, has not even charged for power for 3 years. We will have our full complement of 6m 2m & 70cm on a newish, lattice steel mast with top-notch stainless guy wires, adjustable strainers and so on.

KC2UGV
03-16-2013, 02:49 PM
The fact that the hospital will expect to use ham bands for a backup, instead of properly investing in a proper backup communications system. This would lead to the hospital "donating" equipment for the repeater, such as APCO25 gear, which the majority of hams have no desire to use.

I would make it clear that the club, not the hospital owns the gear, and short of location, just hospital controls NOTHING.

W3WN
03-16-2013, 02:59 PM
The fact that the hospital will expect to use ham bands for a backup, instead of properly investing in a proper backup communications system. This would lead to the hospital "donating" equipment for the repeater, such as APCO25 gear, which the majority of hams have no desire to use.

I would make it clear that the club, not the hospital owns the gear, and short of location, just hospital controls NOTHING.Actually, the hospital does have a backup communications system in place; I probably didn't make that clear. We'd be more of a tertiary fall-back, as in "just in case." Especially if, say, there was a commercial power failure that knocked out cell towers or other comm towers, so that the hospital became isolated from the rest of the universe.

No mention of APCO25 or anything like that. But that is the very reason why we would insist that we maintain ownership & control of the repeater system itself. (Now, if they want to buy that dual-bander & related antenna for their own EmComm center, that's different).

kb2vxa
03-16-2013, 03:51 PM
I don't think you're missing anything but maybe one technical issue. It may come to pass that being in the middle of an antenna farm with RF up the wazoo you may have to reconfigure the cans a bit to notch out a troublesome intermod product. Do I have to remind you any rectifying junction like a rusty bolt can cause them? I've come across that before, just thought I'd mention it. Oh yeah, the telco link is an all important backup to RF for DTMF repeater control just to keep things legal, I'm glad you'll have one.

W2NAP
03-18-2013, 01:49 AM
I feel the pain. I had to move my machine back in feb. Its at a temp location now. But finding repeater sites are very hard.

Pretty much all the towers here are commercial owned (owned by crown castle,american tower,ect) they dont want to even bother with hams. and if they do they quote you an outragous price per month.

Were pretty hated by the local clubs, and that reared its head not long ago.

We dont really have tall buildings here. the 2 tallest 1 is occupied by a club (that hates us) already. the other is boarded up recently sold new owner says he gonna go something good with it but we know how talk can be. the other semi tall buildings wont even talk to us.

makes it harder to since were trying to get metro Indy in and keep the empire in as well..

I know a couple places I could try. but now were talking a bigger expense. commercial climbers 1 5/8 hardline new antenna. And the money is not there for that.

W2NAP
03-18-2013, 01:50 AM
Since you are going to the top of a building. could you not get away with a G7-144? Its a lot cheaper then a 224 is new.

n6hcm
03-18-2013, 02:33 AM
SFARC has their D-Star repeater at the SFVAMC where I work. SFARC has a long relationship with the hospital and, while there's a modest expectation that club members may be available during an emergency, the hospital's emergency communications are coordinated through DHS (the medical center's location has made it attractive for all kinds of things, and DHS built a helipad on site a few years ago). There's a radio room which the SFARC uses with club-owned HF equipment and HF antennae atop the tallest building on campus (and this is, in turn, the highest point in that part of town).

Certain SFVAMC employees (but none in my class) are expected to be available to the medical center during emergencies.

Don't be shy about challenging anything you don't like in the memorandum which governs the relationship--it's just like any other contract where someone tries to get the upper hand but will bend on a challenge.

W3WN
03-18-2013, 11:05 AM
I feel the pain. I had to move my machine back in feb. Its at a temp location now. But finding repeater sites are very hard.

Pretty much all the towers here are commercial owned (owned by crown castle,american tower,ect) they dont want to even bother with hams. and if they do they quote you an outragous price per month.

Were pretty hated by the local clubs, and that reared its head not long ago.

We dont really have tall buildings here. the 2 tallest 1 is occupied by a club (that hates us) already. the other is boarded up recently sold new owner says he gonna go something good with it but we know how talk can be. the other semi tall buildings wont even talk to us.

makes it harder to since were trying to get metro Indy in and keep the empire in as well..

I know a couple places I could try. but now were talking a bigger expense. commercial climbers 1 5/8 hardline new antenna. And the money is not there for that.Funny you should mention Crown Castle.

Long, long ago, when I was still a member of the Steel City club (and still married to the first one), the club was approached by one of the early cell phone providers (Cellular One, if memory serves) about renting space for a tower. The club owns several acres on top of a hill east of the airport. [They eventually did, and the income from that tower and all of it's occupants has kept the club solvent & then some over the years, but I digress.] I was on the original committee to investigate, and one of the things I did was make a phone call to a local commercial tower outfit, that's now part of CC.

They were quite eager to use the club facililties for a commercial tower. Rent? We wanted rent? Why, they were doing US a favor. What? Put the club's repeater antennas (at the time, 2 M & 70 cm) on their tower in exchange for rent? Why, they couldn't do THAT, it was against FCC rules (no it wasn't), didn't we know that? In fact, well, there might be some interference concerns, so they might have to insist on restrictions on the repeater output power...

It almost sounded like we (I) was asking them for permission to use their tower, not to see if they could make the club a better deal. Needless to say, after THOSE conversations (I'm condensing about 3 or 4 into one there), I declined to negotiate with them on behalf of the club, reported as such to the rest of the committee, and that was that.

W3WN
03-18-2013, 11:08 AM
SFARC has their D-Star repeater at the SFVAMC where I work. SFARC has a long relationship with the hospital and, while there's a modest expectation that club members may be available during an emergency, the hospital's emergency communications are coordinated through DHS (the medical center's location has made it attractive for all kinds of things, and DHS built a helipad on site a few years ago). There's a radio room which the SFARC uses with club-owned HF equipment and HF antennae atop the tallest building on campus (and this is, in turn, the highest point in that part of town).

Certain SFVAMC employees (but none in my class) are expected to be available to the medical center during emergencies.

Don't be shy about challenging anything you don't like in the memorandum which governs the relationship--it's just like any other contract where someone tries to get the upper hand but will bend on a challenge.Good to know. Thanks.

We're just begining to work things out with SCH. Is there anyone in SFARC who could talk with our guys to give them some tips?