NTSB may keep Boeing Dreamliner on the ground for months.

[PA5COR]

The National Transportation Safety Board has not yet gotten to the bottom (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/the-ntsb-sees-lengthy-inquiry-into-787-dreamliner.html?_r=0) of what caused battery problems in two Boeing 787 Dreamliner—and it's not letting the Dreamliner back into the air until the mystery is solved. Boeing will face financial costs, but in addition, the company will also be subjected to intense scrutiny into how its most heavily outsourced plane ever also became the first time since 1979 that an entire fleet of planes was grounded by the FAA. The AP's Scott Mayerowitz details how the Dreamliner was so heavily outsourced (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/start-dreamliner-jet-program-rushed-18310475) because Boeing's historic willingness to take risks on a new plane had been diluted by its takeover of McDonnell Douglas, which put more risk-averse executives in place. As a result, Boeing turned to outsourcing to cut the costs of building the new plane. But that has not worked out so well:


"I saw total chaos. Boeing bit off more than it could chew," said Larry Caracciolo, an engineer who spent three years managing 787 supplier quality. First, there were problems with the molding of the new plastics. Then parts made by different suppliers didn't fit properly. For instance, the nose-and-cockpit section was out of alignment with the rest of the plane, leaving a 0.3-inch gap.
By giving up control of its supply chain, Boeing had lost the ability to oversee each step of production. Problems sometimes weren't discovered until the parts came together at its Everett, Wash., plant.
Even before a battery fire in one plane and a battery problem leading to smoke in the cockpit of another grounded the 787, outsourcing hadn't exactly saved time or money in the production of the plane. Hopefully, more companies than just Boeing will treat the Dreamliner's grounding as a cautionary tale.

Not much good news then for Boeing...
Source daily kos.

[N2CHX]

I haven't said it here, but I've said it elsewhere, even before the new battery problems grounded the fleet. The Dreamliner will be the end of Boeing. Kiss Boeing bye bye, it's done.

[PA5COR]

Don't think it will be the end of Boeing, it is the only compettitor to the European big bird and had some promissing orders ahead.
Some companies will now buy elsewhere, but then in these size you only can chose between this one and the Airbus 380.
The Airbus also had some start up problems which are now solved.
The Airbus is in regular service now for 6 years.
The Airbus plans to make a lengthened version with a 1000 person capacity in the near future.

[kb2vxa]

Nah, Boeing will bounce back, Boeing Boeing Boeing Boeing Boeing... Hey, settle down! Outsourcing is problematical at best, not all sources have high QC standards and some none at all. I found this out as QC/QA inspector doing in process and final testing, when we outsourced a couple of transformer jobs I was doing incoming inspection as well. Amazingly those from China were so close to nominal in 100% inspection I asked and was given permission to do the lowest AQL level which sped things up considerably. On the other hand was Mexico with a 100% failure rate, not a single one was anywhere near tolerance. After correspondence with the source produced no change it wasn't long before the contract was cancelled. Hello Kitty goodbye taco.

Hello?

[VK3ZL]

Nah, Boeing will bounce back, Boeing Boeing Boeing Boeing Boeing... Hey, settle down! Outsourcing is problematical at best, not all sources have high QC standards and some none at all. I found this out as QC/QA inspector doing in process and final testing, when we outsourced a couple of transformer jobs I was doing incoming inspection as well. Amazingly those from China were so close to nominal in 100% inspection I asked and was given permission to do the lowest AQL level which sped things up considerably. On the other hand was Mexico with a 100% failure rate, not a single one was anywhere near tolerance. After correspondence with the source produced no change it wasn't long before the contract was cancelled. Hello Kitty goodbye taco.

Hello?

Gidday Warren, I have all my amplifier filament and HT transformers custom made to my specs in China...Quality is top class..

Bob..VK3ZL..

[HUGH]

Dead right about outsourcing. It goes along with employing temps and freelancers, financial losses fall elsewhere.

You will have airlines who will only buy from Boeing because that's what they've always done. An example is Air New Zealand, small by most standards, but I'm told they were waiting on the Dreamliner to become available. What now?

(By the way, having travelled long distance on the Airbus A380, I found it remarkably quiet, spacious and steadier in turbulence.)

....and what I do know about plastic mouldings is that it's best to have all interlocking parts made by one manufacturer. Plastic mouldings shrink when they cool, requiring careful calculations in making the tools.

[N2RJ]

The first thing that crossed my mind when I started hearing about the lithium battery fires was... "didn't the FAA put restrictions on lithium batteries carried on board aircraft for that very reason?"

Since 1999 these things have been catching fire (http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/lithium-ion_battery_04112006.pdf) on board aircraft.

[KK4AMI]

Can you all think of anything made today that uses Lithium batteries made in China that hasn't had problems? I remember exploding burning laptops, electric cars that were fire hazards and now Boeing. I just consider it a Product "Trial by Fire" development program. They will get it ironed out.

[PA5COR]

It was not only the batteries, it was a score of faults, including cracked front windows etc.
The Airbus is also made by several countries in parts.
On January 16, 2013, both major Japanese airlines ANA and JAL announced that they were voluntarily grounding or suspending flights for their fleets of 787s after multiple incidents involving different 787s, including emergency landings. These two carriers operate 24 of the 50 Dreamliners delivered to date

On January 16, 2013, the FAA (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/FAA) issued an emergency airworthiness directive (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Emergency_airworthiness_directive) ordering all U.S.-based airlines to ground their Boeing 787s until yet-to-be-determined modifications are made to the electrical system to reduce the risk of the battery overheating or catching fire. This is the first time that the FAA has grounded a passenger aircraft model since 1979.The FAA also announced plans to conduct an extensive review of the 787's critical systems. The focus of the review will be on the safety of the lithium-ion batteries (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Safety) made of lithium cobalt oxide (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Lithium_cobalt_oxide) (LiCo). The 787 battery contract was signed in 2005, when LiCo batteries were the only type of lithium aerospace battery available, but since then newer and safer types (such as LiFePO (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery)), which provide less reaction energy during thermal runaway (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Thermal_runaway), have become available.
FAA approved a 787 battery in 2007 with nine "special conditions". A battery approved by FAA (through Mobile Power Solutions) was made by Rose Electronics using Kokam cells,[302] (https://forums.hamisland.net/#cite_note-supIv-303) but the batteries installed in the 787 are made by Yuasa.

On January 20, the NTSB declared that overvoltage was not the cause of the Boston incident, as voltage did not exceed the battery limit of 32 V, and the charging unit passed tests. The battery had signs of short circuiting (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Short_circuit) and thermal runaway. Despite this, on January 24 the NTSB announced that it had not yet pinpointed the cause of the Boston fire; the FAA will not allow U.S.-based Dreamliners to fly again until the problem is found and corrected. In a press briefing that day, NTSB Chairwoman Deborah Hersman (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Deborah_Hersman) said that the NTSB had found evidence of failure of multiple safety systems designed to prevent these battery problems, and stated that fire must never happen on an airplane.

The Japan Transport Safety Board (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Japan_Transport_Safety_Board) has said on January 23 that the battery in ANA jet's in Japan reached a maximum voltage of 31 V (lower than the 32 V limit like the Boston JAL 787), but had a sudden unexplained voltage drop.
Industry experts disagree on consequences of the grounding: Airbus is confident that Boeing will resolve the issue and that no airlines will switch plane type, while other experts see the problem as "costly" and "could take upwards of a year".

As of 28 January 2013,Air India (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Air_India) has decided to sell off all its newly acquired Dreamliners.

[X-Rated]

Can you all think of anything made today that uses Lithium batteries made in China that hasn't had problems? I remember exploding burning laptops, electric cars that were fire hazards and now Boeing. I just consider it a Product "Trial by Fire" development program. They will get it ironed out.

My new TYT radio is doing fine.

[kb2vxa]

"Gidday Warren, I have all my amplifier filament and HT transformers custom made to my specs in China...Quality is top class."
Of that I have little doubt. Until they went out of business Dahl made top notch power transformers, they had stock items including direct OEM replacements for long discontinued equipment. For a price they'd manufacture to customer specified parameters so they were number one for hams with soldering irons. One thing that gave me the giggles was Hypersil, their trademark for ever so common silicon steel laminations.

"...the batteries installed in the 787 are made by Yuasa."
That's another thing that gives me the giggles and it's not just the name. Their slogan is "the fun starts here", I'll bet the FAA and NTSB are scratching their heads.

[n6hcm]

As of 28 January 2013,Air India (https://forums.hamisland.net/wiki/Air_India) has decided to sell off all its newly acquired Dreamliners.

who did they think was going to buy them? air india is already a goofy sort--they haven't made money in ages and a good part of that has to do with corruption in the upper ranks ...

[kb2vxa]

By odd coincidence today I saw a CNBC piece on the Dreamliner produced before the fleet was grounded. The inside looks like a wide body flying cattle car I wouldn't care to take a long trip in... but they have high hopes, those high apple pie in the sky hopes. Boredom is a mind killer but not an insurmountable problem, fill it with anesthetic gas and on final approach turn on the air packs and ventilate.