View Full Version : What organizations do NOT want from ham operators...
KC2UGV
10-26-2012, 08:30 AM
After speaking with friend who is a coordinator for the local Red Cross, we got to talking about Emcomm ops. We came up with a list of what they do NOT want from us:
* A comms center that is not in the general pop area (Or, the area designated by the coordinator)
* A comms center that is in the EOC
* Ops who will not send the messages requested, such as logistics reports (We have 200 people here. List will follow)
* Ops who refuse to help in any way, other than sucking down coffee, and sitting in front of a radio
* 80 year old ops, who require a walker, regular medication, and a personal assistant
* 400 lb ops who can't do anything besides sit in a chair, and wheeze while walking across the hall
It was a list of "You know what grinds my gears?" kind of thing. What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
I think hams should stay the fuck out of the way, unless everything else has gone to shit.
Stay home and take care of your own.
w0aew
10-26-2012, 08:40 AM
What do you guys think?
Well, it's a start. Hams providing significant communications help probably made sense in 1948. But now???
KC2UGV
10-26-2012, 08:41 AM
I think hams should stay the fuck out of the way, unless everything else has gone to shit.
Stay home and take care of your own.
I would agree, by and large. However, my friend did mention that the help is appreciated at times. There have been some good ops he's dealt with, such as the ham op who drove him from shelter to shelter to check on people; and the ham kept them in constant contact with the EOC.
N2CHX
10-26-2012, 08:41 AM
After speaking with friend who is a coordinator for the local Red Cross, we got to talking about Emcomm ops. We came up with a list of what they do NOT want from us:
* A comms center that is not in the general pop area (Or, the area designated by the coordinator)
* A comms center that is in the EOC
* Ops who will not send the messages requested, such as logistics reports (We have 200 people here. List will follow)
* Ops who refuse to help in any way, other than sucking down coffee, and sitting in front of a radio
* 80 year old ops, who require a walker, regular medication, and a personal assistant
* 400 lb ops who can't do anything besides sit in a chair, and wheeze while walking across the hall
It was a list of "You know what grinds my gears?" kind of thing. What do you guys think?
Michele?
KC2UGV
10-26-2012, 08:42 AM
Michele?
???
PA5COR
10-26-2012, 08:42 AM
^LOL :mrgreen:
N2CHX
10-26-2012, 08:51 AM
???
God, you are braindead this morning, aren't you? Wondering if the friend you spoke to is Michele. Wasn't going to mention a last name.
KC2UGV
10-26-2012, 09:02 AM
God, you are braindead this morning, aren't you? Wondering if the friend you spoke to is Michele. Wasn't going to mention a last name.
Oh yeah. Mike :)
N2CHX
10-26-2012, 09:06 AM
Oh yeah. Mike :)
Last name start with D?
KC2UGV
10-26-2012, 10:17 AM
Last name start with D?
Yes :) Same guy.
wa6mhz
10-26-2012, 10:25 AM
Following the 2003 Firestorm that devasted Crest and Harbinson Canyon, I worked at the Red Cross shelter down in the HC park. Ham radio was very beneficial into passing non-emergency traffic and was very welcomed by the organizers. But things got very slow, so I was put in as a regular RC Volunteer processing fire victims and helping out in many ways (carrying around bags of this and that). As it turned out, Ham Radio wasn't needed that much, but able-bodied, willing workers were.
WØTKX
10-26-2012, 10:30 AM
Running it right means helping out in any way possible. But ask/wait for assignments from the proper Incident Coordinator(s). I have required training about ICS because of my job, when followed things run smoothly.
Most ARES groups in CO do well, and get a lot of kudos for helping, especially wildfires.
N2CHX
10-26-2012, 10:45 AM
Yes :) Same guy.
Yeah, he's a good guy and knows his stuff. Dan is tickled that his old boss is part of the topic of discussion on HI right now lol.
WØTKX
10-26-2012, 11:06 AM
The real answer to the question posed by this thread?
Nitrates and red dye #2. :mrgreen:
I think hams should stay the fuck out of the way, unless everything else has gone to shit.
Stay home and take care of your own.
What he said. Besides, ya might miss a contest.
XE1/N5AL
10-26-2012, 11:39 AM
Surely, the ham who shows up in a well-decorated whackermobile, with flashing light bars, would be placed in charge of the whole emergency operation.
Seriously though, my radio club friends, who are in ARES, train with the county authorities and conduct simulated emergency drills with them. If disaster does strike, these hams are in a much better position to help out than an ad-hoc collection of doughnut eaters with radios.
What he said. Besides, ya might miss a contest.
Fortunately, it looks like CQWW will be over by the time Sandy gets here. ;) :lol:
KG4CGC
10-26-2012, 12:26 PM
A good emcomm op will sit in his car listening to multiple scanners so he can be the first to show up at an emergency situation and take control over the scene. He should also be armed to the hilt so he can help LEOs kill bad guys.
http://thewheelfx.com/lane/GIFS/FatGuyShootingRed.gif
AE1PT
10-26-2012, 04:09 PM
I think hams should stay the fuck out of the way, unless everything else has gone to shit.
Stay home and take care of your own.
+10 for Jim... :clap:
Worry about ourselves and our neighbors--this is the finest community service that there is. And when the going is supposed to get really rough? Grab your shit and run.
There are lots of places that hams can do worthwhile and 'emergency' services. Our club engages in many--marathon runs, airshows, boat races, so on and so forth. We are the extra eyes that can be put into place to fill comm needs where none exist--or to augment those that simply do not have enough resources. Good stuff, and easy to find. Not much glory though, and no need for flashing lights, safety vests, or clusters of official looking badges hanging about one's neck.
I am a firm believer in what Ed, W5HTW (SK) used to say. "Keep the amateur in amateur radio, keep the pros, and Part 90, out of it."
Government has lots of money to throw around and upgrade their own ecomm infrastructure. When I was traveling around doing PP decks and promoting that other place, hams always came up and asked about 'grants to buy equipment for emergencies'. They were always disappointed when told that the Feds were not going to pay to upgrade the club station...
I think what a lot of the EmComm (the 'whacker' contingent, if you will) overlook is that in the last 25 - 30 years, and especially the last 10 years (due to Homeland Security and related initiatives), commercial communications has significantly improved. Most government- related Emergency Services types have gotten more extensive training. More money has been thrown at the situation... a lot of it wasted (we are talking about government, after all) but some of it did some good.
Now I'm not going to say that Government/professional ES providers are THE one and only answer -- stuff happens, and you can't anticipate everything. But clearly, the need for Amateur Radio to be available as one of the primary or secondary communications providers is over.
Oh, yes, we still have a role and a purpose. As a backup, several layers down. (Like I said, stuff happens, and you can't anticipate everything).
The time has come for the Amateur Service to collectively accept reality.
Too many whacker-types, however, don't. And they continue to give the rest of us a bad name, and as a side-effect, continue to give the professionals further cause to diminish what little we can still provide in terms of assistance and such.
While I share the general distain for emcomm whackerdom with the rest of you, hams really can make a difference in certain emergency situations. For instance, in San Diego County (which is about the size of Connecticut—4500 square miles), hams have a very good relationship with Cal Fire and other fire agencies. During the last two big wildfires, they've helped out by taking non-emergency traffic off the official public safety bands. They also act as volunteer fire spotters when requested to do so. The reason that it works here is that prior training is required before an op is allowed on the network. Just showing up with a technician ticket and a 2m HT isn't good enough.
ki4itv
10-26-2012, 05:20 PM
I'm the type that thinks we should just help our friends and neighbors with getting any available information from various radio sources, or passing health and welfare traffic for the general public.
That's about it, the cozy courtship AR has with government/disaster relief agencies gives me the creeps.
I've found that I'm usually uncomfortable around the hams most attracted to that type of "service".
YMMV
Its not even the service thats the issue, or even if the service has a place in emergency management. The issue is the intention and ego of the operators showing up. The ones who really want to help will likely have a radio on them if they need it, but are rolling up their sleeves and asking what they can do to help, and actually listening for the answer from someone who knows more about whats going on than they do. The egocentric whacker just wants to feel like hes a first responder so he can feel important, like he actually has some control over something in the world.
The first group is good and can actually help. The second group, stay home...seriously!
k1oik
10-26-2012, 09:47 PM
I think hams should stay the fuck out of the way, unless everything else has gone to shit.
Stay home and take care of your own.
Well stated
n2ize
10-26-2012, 10:54 PM
Ham radio is a HOBBY and thats that. Hams have no business sticking their fat faces in emegency work. Keave the emergency stuff to paid professionals who are in shape and trained to do what they do and above alL STAY THE HELL OUT OF THEIR WAY. Take your toy radios and join the contest or whatever.
KC2UGV
10-27-2012, 06:41 AM
Its not even the service thats the issue, or even if the service has a place in emergency management. The issue is the intention and ego of the operators showing up. The ones who really want to help will likely have a radio on them if they need it, but are rolling up their sleeves and asking what they can do to help, and actually listening for the answer from someone who knows more about whats going on than they do. The egocentric whacker just wants to feel like hes a first responder so he can feel important, like he actually has some control over something in the world.
The first group is good and can actually help. The second group, stay home...seriously!
This was the crux of the conversation I had. Yes, you can help. Bring your radios, just in case. But, in reality, be prepared to unload water from trucks, and set up cots.
W9WLS
10-27-2012, 06:51 AM
I've heard this sort of thing from several "EMCOMM", "EOC", and "OTHER" professional type's before.
Seems that they all think ham's are there to get their coffee, run errands, and in general kiss their arses right up until the "REAL" professional com's fall on their faces then they remember "oh yeah, so & so can operate a radio" then we are supposed to pick up the pieces and make them look good.
One of the big reasons I've never got involved with "EMCOMM" !
Don't take me wrong, I'll offer my services, but not as "gopher".
w0aew
10-27-2012, 07:17 AM
Ham Emcomm: the technology of yesteryear for the emergency of today. (Or maybe, the clown car with antennas.)
Government has lots of money to throw around and upgrade their own ecomm infrastructure. When I was traveling around doing PP decks and promoting that other place, hams always came up and asked about 'grants to buy equipment for emergencies'. They were always disappointed when told that the Feds were not going to pay to upgrade the club station...
What concerns me are the clubs which actually manage to obtain such grants, thereby allowing the proverbial camel's nose into their operations tent. Several in this area have taken the bait...
Pick your favorite metaphor here: TANSTAAFL, Faustian bargain and so forth. I do not want the government paying for any aspect of my "hobby".
n2ize
10-27-2012, 11:38 AM
I've heard this sort of thing from several "EMCOMM", "EOC", and "OTHER" professional type's before.
Seems that they all think ham's are there to get their coffee, run errands, and in general kiss their arses right up until the "REAL" professional com's fall on their faces then they remember "oh yeah, so & so can operate a radio" then we are supposed to pick up the pieces and make them look good.
One of the big reasons I've never got involved with "EMCOMM" !
Don't take me wrong, I'll offer my services, but not as "gopher".
Ham radio can be good in a situation where people need help and there exist no emergency personnel, no cell phone or land line service. Under certain situations it can sometimes be one of the only ways to summon for help or to get good (or bad) news out to the rest of the world. But to just barge in and start "communicating" and grabbing the coffe and donuts... which is for firemen, cops, and ems... not for fat hams... when professional emergency workers are already there is just plain wrong. Back off and let the professionals handle it.
AE1PT
10-27-2012, 12:51 PM
What concerns me are the clubs which actually manage to obtain such grants, thereby allowing the proverbial camel's nose into their operations tent. Several in this area have taken the bait...
Pick your favorite metaphor here: TANSTAAFL, Faustian bargain and so forth. I do not want the government paying for any aspect of my "hobby".
I suspect that this is just a lot like real estate--location, location, location. My understanding of how the RFP's are written stipulate that the equipment be co-located somewhere in the existing public sector infrastructure--CD center, hospital, 911 center, so on and so forth. The availability of equipment in those cases is for drill and actual operations. If 'clubs' have gotten funding and placed the equipment in privately held locations then the likelihood is that they misrepresented themselves on the application. This has happened, especially after 9/11 and Katrina when a lot of money was being thrown around quickly--with very little oversight. The more egregious circumstances were where a county applied for the funding and essentially gave it to a local ham club. It's all in who you know, right?
Emcomm has been a bargain with the devil since WERS was concocted in 1942 to preserve amateur radio. As the interoperability requirements of emergency services have increased in the last 5 years, the actual importance of our 'service' has decreased. Hams are grasping by incorporation of APCO protocols and I seriously think that the inclusion of CDMA in Docket 12-283 is just another ploy to make it look as if we are somewhere in the 21st Century...
As amateur emcomm illusion fades, I see the new strategy is making it easier to get a license--reflected in proceedings of the same Docket.
This was the crux of the conversation I had. Yes, you can help. Bring your radios, just in case. But, in reality, be prepared to unload water from trucks, and set up cots.
See, that makes sense to me. Its not about "Have no fear, the HAM is on scene!". Nobody likes that attitude even in non-emergency situations.
I've heard this sort of thing from several "EMCOMM", "EOC", and "OTHER" professional type's before.
Seems that they all think ham's are there to get their coffee, run errands, and in general kiss their arses right up until the "REAL" professional com's fall on their faces then they remember "oh yeah, so & so can operate a radio" then we are supposed to pick up the pieces and make them look good.
One of the big reasons I've never got involved with "EMCOMM" !
Don't take me wrong, I'll offer my services, but not as "gopher".
That alone should tell you our reputation with these people. If we were taken seriously as an asset, we would be depended on a lot more. Its one of the reasons i tell few people im a ham. The 'orange vest' donut munching, mamas boys waddling around EHQ, too fat to lift a sandbag, are more common than a guy who happens to be a ham showing up to do whatever he can to help his community. I used to be a member of RACES and ARES, etc. Ive been to these things and saw firsthand the absolute lack of enthusiasm and caring on their blotchy, sweaty faces when laborious tasks were asked. Thats not what they came down there for. They were waiting for the big pat on the back, a plaque from the Governor and a heroes parade.
Im with you, if i show up to legitimately help out, i am there to help out. If not, then get your own coffee...but im there to work. What i will do is leave the EMCOMM ego at the door, along with any extra crap strapped to my person. And i certainly wont be there for the donuts or back patting. When peoples lives are being turned upsidedown, the last thing im going to do is act like they dont matter.
...What i will do is leave the EMCOMM ego at the door, along with any extra crap strapped to my person.
Any time I volunteer to help in a given situation - or if I'm going to be in an area where S might HTF - I take along an old Apple laptop bag. Inside is a VX6R and/or VX7R, a MURS HT, an FRS/GMRS rig, spare batteries, chargers and speaker/mics for each along with assorted antennas for those rigs which can accommodate detachables. I -might- also take along a handheld CB (and really ought to buy a newer model of such).
What I don't take are reflector vests, callsign badges, hats, ARRL Logo clothing or anything else that potentially stereotypes me.
If asked I'll break out the radio equipment and use it as directed. If not I'll continue manipulating the shovel, carry supplies or whatever else is urgently needed.
Any time I volunteer to help in a given situation - or if I'm going to be in an area where S might HTF - I take along an old Apple laptop bag. Inside is a VX6R and/or VX7R, a MURS HT, an FRS/GMRS rig, spare batteries, chargers and speaker/mics for each along with assorted antennas for those rigs which can accommodate detachables. I -might- also take along a handheld CB (and really ought to buy a newer model of such).
What I don't take are reflector vests, callsign badges, hats, ARRL Logo clothing or anything else that potentially stereotypes me.
If asked I'll break out the radio equipment and use it as directed. If not I'll continue manipulating the shovel, carry supplies or whatever else is urgently needed.
Bingo!
AE1PT
10-28-2012, 03:18 PM
If asked I'll break out the radio equipment and use it as directed. If not I'll continue manipulating the shovel, carry supplies or whatever else is urgently needed.
+10 :clap:
Help takes all forms. Some is more worthwhile than others...
K7SGJ
10-28-2012, 03:41 PM
Its not even the service thats the issue, or even if the service has a place in emergency management. The issue is the intention and ego of the operators showing up. The ones who really want to help will likely have a radio on them if they need it, but are rolling up their sleeves and asking what they can do to help, and actually listening for the answer from someone who knows more about whats going on than they do. The egocentric whacker just wants to feel like hes a first responder so he can feel important, like he actually has some control over something in the world.
The first group is good and can actually help. The second group, stay home...seriously!
Wait till they arm the second group with automatic weapons.
KK4AMI
11-02-2012, 05:42 PM
I offered to help on my first and only search and rescue here in Central Virginia. A hiker was supposedly injured and lost in George Washington National Forest. He was heard by kids calling for help on one of the FRS Radios. I saw the search on the news and the Sheriff running it. I called the Sheriffs office and offered to help by monitoring the frequency he was supposedly calling out on. They took my name, call sign and number, told me another ham was involved and told me the channel to listen to. I spent the day listening until they called the search off as a hoax. Of course that was primarily using my scanner, but I did get to talk to another ham on 10 meters. I've since put the DX-70, Yaesu scanner and Icom IC-M72 in my truck so I can go on site. I think its important to be able to monitor all the open access frequencies available to hikers, fisherman, hunters and boaters. I have the capability to monitor CB and Marine VHF to. I think me telling the Sheriff what I could do kept them from thinking up things for me to do.
Wait till they arm the second group with automatic weapons.
I believe the second group likely already has too many of them to begin with.
I offered to help on my first and only search and rescue here in Central Virginia. A hiker was supposedly injured and lost in George Washington National Forest. He was heard by kids calling for help on one of the FRS Radios. I saw the search on the news and the Sheriff running it. I called the Sheriffs office and offered to help by monitoring the frequency he was supposedly calling out on. They took my name, call sign and number, told me another ham was involved and told me the channel to listen to. I spent the day listening until they called the search off as a hoax. Of course that was primarily using my scanner, but I did get to talk to another ham on 10 meters. I've since put the DX-70, Yaesu scanner and Icom IC-M72 in my truck so I can go on site. I think its important to be able to monitor all the open access frequencies available to hikers, fisherman, hunters and boaters. I have the capability to monitor CB and Marine VHF to. I think me telling the Sheriff what I could do kept them from thinking up things for me to do.
How do you like the dx-70?
KK4AMI
11-03-2012, 05:40 AM
How do you like the dx-70?
I'm a beginner, so I don't have much to judge it by. Being my first radio, cheap was my most desired operating feature. It is in my Dodge truck now with a Chameleon V2L HF whip and LDG AT100PROII tuner and a separate 6 meter 54 inch whip. I use it to monitor mostly while I'm on the road. The radio or my truck are pretty noisy. Gotta work on filtering that crap out. So far I have used 10 meter to talk to my friend in the county (he has been fooling around with cheap 10 meter mobiles). Since its the DX-70T its a bit underpowered on the 6 meter band (10 Watts), so I spend more time listening to 6 meters. Someday, I'll get close enough to the Buckingham County 6 meter repeater for it to hear me.
kb2crk
11-03-2012, 06:26 AM
Well as a part of the local CERT team I do have to wear a stupid green reflective vest when called out. I have yet to use a ham radio when in an actual deployment. In a communications training situation being one of two hams in the group I usually have to help or run it. plain language and prowords used properly really do help. In a major situation I was told to be ready to sit in my van and run comms but as of now there has only been a couple SARs.
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