Furnace question

[kf0rt]

So... the kids here bought a HUD home (which we're now preparing for living in).

Went out there this afternoon to fire up the furnace for the first time (well, since the last time it was fired up). Xcel *finally* got the gas turned on. Furnace fired right up as soon as I got the inside gas valve turned the right way. This unit is more modern than what I'm used to. 92.5% efficient, automatic pilot, etc.

But, a mystery... There's a white PVC pipe coming out the side of it -- this tees to a pipe and one end of that goes into a crawlspace and to points unknown and the other ends in an open pipe pointing to the floor. Here's a picture:

7559

After running the furnace for about a half hour, I went downstairs and there was a small puddle on the floor; quickly traced the source to this pipe (and stuck a bucket under it). Slow drip while the furnace is running -- in the hour + it took to bring the house from 53 to 60 degrees, it probably dripped a pint of water or so. This furnace is also outfitted for central A/C, but that's all disconnected.

My question is simply, WTF? Condensation? Dehumidifier?? (Nobody does dehimidifiers out here)

Idears?

[KG4NEL]

This happened at my folks' place over the summer - 10 year old HE unit. In their case, the tubing on the upstream (furnace) side of the condensate pump was clogged with vile-looking and smelling stuff. Taping a shop vac to give it enough of a seal was enough to suck it all out. I also cleaned out the downstream side of the pump as well, the part that goes to the outside.

I'd find where the pump is, and follow the lines back. Clean out the pump housing while you're at it, it's probably gunked up too.

[WØTKX]

What's the end into the furnace doing?

[XE1/N5AL]

I'm a complete idiot when it comes to HVAC systems, but shouldn't the "condensate line" in a system like this have a "u-shaped" or "j-shaped" water trap at the end? It looks like the system shown in the picture just dumps the water condensation straight into a bucket, without any trapping.

The trap probably wouldn't prevent water from running onto the floor, but it would prevent problems caused by air entering the condensate line from below? Maybe the trap is inside the furnace unit? Any experts out there with opinions?

[ab1ga]

Modern furnaces reach those high efficiencies by reclaiming heat from the combustion exhaust. During this process, water vapor in the exhaust stream condenses, and has to go somewhere. I suspect that's what the bucket is for.

Also, some places require furnace supply air to be drawn from the outside, rather than the room, reducing the risk of CO poisoning events should there be some malfunction.

The plastic pipe could be the air feed and condensate clearance. If you can get the make and model number of the furnace, you can probably find an installation manual online and find all the details necessary to decrypt your furnace plumbing.

73,

PS> Some codes don't allow direct discharge of condensate; it can be quite acidic and require treatment before being flushed down the drain. Could something have been connected to the downpipe?

[W3WN]

You should talk with someone who's an HVAC tech. They can give you a better explanation.

I can tell you that my HE furnace is set up the same way, although mine has pump system to feed the condensate into the utility sink.

[kb2crk]

It is very possible that the PVC pipe is the flue and the down leg is the condensate drop. It should have a trap and pump on it. the HE units of 90% and better can use PVC as an exhaust Flue.

[kf0rt]

Good info -- I'll get the model/make of the beast when I'm out there tomorrow.

Thanks!

[KC2UGV]

So... the kids here bought a HUD home (which we're now preparing for living in).

Went out there this afternoon to fire up the furnace for the first time (well, since the last time it was fired up). Xcel *finally* got the gas turned on. Furnace fired right up as soon as I got the inside gas valve turned the right way. This unit is more modern than what I'm used to. 92.5% efficient, automatic pilot, etc.

But, a mystery... There's a white PVC pipe coming out the side of it -- this tees to a pipe and one end of that goes into a crawlspace and to points unknown and the other ends in an open pipe pointing to the floor. Here's a picture:

7559

After running the furnace for about a half hour, I went downstairs and there was a small puddle on the floor; quickly traced the source to this pipe (and stuck a bucket under it). Slow drip while the furnace is running -- in the hour + it took to bring the house from 53 to 60 degrees, it probably dripped a pint of water or so. This furnace is also outfitted for central A/C, but that's all disconnected.

My question is simply, WTF? Condensation? Dehumidifier?? (Nobody does dehimidifiers out here)

Idears?

It's the condensation line. Instead of a bucket, you can run a hose of some sort from the line to the drain channel at the wall, or to the primary floor drain. It's what is done in my house.

[KK4AMI]

What they all said. Combustion produces water vapor and fumes. My furnace is in the attic. One pipe drains water outside from the eve, the other does exhaust through the roof. Usually there is a drip pan under the furnace.

[ab1ga]

Just curious, because the photo doesn't show much above the top of the unit, but is there another stack, or is the PVC pipe the only possible exhaust route?

[AE7RZ]

90% and higher efficiency furnaces capture most of the heat normally wasted up the flue of less efficient models. This causes the flue vapors to condensate. This condensation is very acidic in the fact that it will corrode galvanized pipe very quickly. That is the reason for the probably 1 1/2 or 2 inch pvc going "places unknown". you will find a pvc pipe protruding through the roof probably with a 180° turn to keep out the rain.
The other end in the bucket need to be pumped out with a condensate pump or plumbed(if you use hose it must be able to handle the acidic water) to a drain.
There is probably another drain line somewhere near the collector box where the induced draft enters the furnace. If this fills with water the furnace will shut down!

[N8YX]

'RZ nails it with that observation. Welcome to the Island!

[K7SGJ]

Well, this IS the flue season.

[NA4BH]

Well, this IS the flue season.

Swine flue?

[K7SGJ]

Swine flue?

Just had to go there, huh? WHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[WØTKX]

Aha! That makes sense.

I've been living in too many cheap ass houses with forced air heat.
With a lot of heat going up the flue so there is no condensation...
But plenty of water vapor going out the stack.

The new place has an older heat plant, but it is hot water baseboard heating.
And a lot of wood in the winter. This is good to know as a new homeowner.

Science rocks. :yes:

[N8YX]

Swine flue?

7568

[kf0rt]

Thanks for all the great info, guys. I've found a manual for the furnace online, and it sez:


This furnace is designed to remove both sensible and latent heat from the combustion flue gas. As a result water vapor is condensed in the secondary heat exchanger. This condensate must be drained either to the outdoors or, where local code permits, to a sewage system. In areas where floor level drains are not available a condensate pump may be employed. This condensate pump must be constructed of corrosion resistant materials. It must also have an auxiliary switch which will shut down the furnace in the event of pump failure or drain tube blockage.

There is a floor drain, but it's very inconveniently located (about 6' away, but on the other side of the access to the basement). Running pipe on the floor would be uncool. Looks like we've got an HVAC outfit coming out next Thursday; will see what they have to say about it.

Makes me wonder what the previous owners did...?

[WØTKX]

They had a still? :chin:

[kf0rt]

They had a still? :chin:

Or maybe just sensible heat. :lol:

[W4RLR]

It is very possible that the PVC pipe is the flue and the down leg is the condensate drop. It should have a trap and pump on it. the HE units of 90% and better can use PVC as an exhaust Flue.That's exactly what it is. There is a similar system at my wife's shop. Having high efficiency electric heat pumps at the new QTH, I do not have such piping attached to my heating equipment, but I was curious about the PVC piping on the gear at the wife's workplace. The shop owner filled me in.

[VE7DCW]

Just had to go there, huh? WHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Eddy .....Bob is a Maxwell fan ......I like the little Wheeeeeeeeee as well

If you say he's "quite a little pig" of course you would be correct!! :mrgreen:

[K7SGJ]

Eddy .....Bob is a Maxwell fan ......I like the little Wheeeeeeeeee as well

If you say he's "quite a little pig" of course you would be correct!! :mrgreen:

It's kind of a running thing between us. Besides, Maxwell is always good for a :hijack: . Although when the Wheeeeeee comercial came out, and they ran it every station break, it got old real quick. I wish FELIX BAUMGARTNER would take him up for the sky dive to break the sound barrier. I'd like to see how much wheeeeee the little porker has at light speed.

[ab1ga]

It's kind of a running thing between us. Besides, Maxwell is always good for a :hijack: . Although when the Wheeeeeee comercial came out, and they ran it every station break, it got old real quick. I wish FELIX BAUMGARTNER would take him up for the sky dive to break the sound barrier. I'd like to see how much wheeeeee the little porker has at light speed.

Due to Doppler shift you probably wouldn't hear a thing...

[NQ6U]

Due to Doppler shift you probably wouldn't hear a thing...

And, depending on where you were standing, he might change from pink to blue.

[W3WN]

90% and higher efficiency furnaces capture most of the heat normally wasted up the flue of less efficient models. This causes the flue vapors to condensate. This condensation is very acidic in the fact that it will corrode galvanized pipe very quickly. That is the reason for the probably 1 1/2 or 2 inch pvc going "places unknown". you will find a pvc pipe protruding through the roof probably with a 180° turn to keep out the rain.
The other end in the bucket need to be pumped out with a condensate pump or plumbed(if you use hose it must be able to handle the acidic water) to a drain.
There is probably another drain line somewhere near the collector box where the induced draft enters the furnace. If this fills with water the furnace will shut down!Thanks for the explanation.

But now you have me a little worried.

2 winters ago, I come home to find a big puddle on the basement floor. Short story is that the condensate pump on our furnace had failed. $400 later, new pump has replaced the old one... but what I'm now wondering is why the furnace didn't shut down when the pump failed?

Of course, the simple answer might be that because the pump was leaking the condensate onto the floor, it wasn't being retained in the furnace, thus no reason for the furnace to shut off.

And frankly, if it was feasible & financially possible, I'd have the floor drain extended to the furnace area, rather than continue with the Rube Goldberg-like routing of the plastic tubing from the furnace to the utility sink in the laundry area. It's not though. But I have some alternative ideas for that, as part of the overall basement redesign.

[W8XLR]

Thanks for the explanation.

But now you have me a little worried.

2 winters ago, I come home to find a big puddle on the basement floor. Short story is that the condensate pump on our furnace had failed. $400 later, new pump has replaced the old one... but what I'm now wondering is why the furnace didn't shut down when the pump failed?

Of course, the simple answer might be that because the pump was leaking the condensate onto the floor, it wasn't being retained in the furnace, thus no reason for the furnace to shut off.


It's also possible the installer of the original pump did'nt wire in the saftey switch. On most pumps, there are two leads coming from the float which are to be wired in series with the furnaces low voltage (24V) control circuit. If the float reaches the top of its travel limit, the N.C. contacts open, shutting down the furnace on completion of it's last cycle.


Sometimes, installers dont bother to wire this up (lazy), unless the equipment is located in an area where major damage from water could occur (like an attic). I have 30 years experience in HVAC, and HATE condensate pumps. I will only use one when there is absolutely no other option... and allways wire in the safety!

[kf0rt]

I have 30 years experience in HVAC, and HATE condensate pumps. I will only use one when there is absolutely no other option... and allways wire in the safety!

Good to know that. Just curious, tho... why do you hate condensate pumps? (This stuff's all new to me.)

[W8XLR]

Just another Electro-mechanical divise that WILL fail, sooner or later, and allways at the worst possible time. If gravity, which never fails, can be employed by any means to remove the water than the choice is clear. Sometimes this can't be done practically, I.E. digging up a floor to plumb in a drain, so unfortunatly a pump is the only option...

[kf0rt]

Cool. That makes sense.

[W8XLR]

Just another Electro-mechanical divise that WILL fail, sooner or later, and allways at the worst possible time. If gravity, which never fails, can be employed by any means to remove the water than the choice is clear. Sometimes this can't be done practically, I.E. digging up a floor to plumb in a drain, so unfortunatly a pump is the only option...

I could also add, for those that DO have pumps, a good P.M. practice is to periodically pour a 1/2 cup of bleach into the pumps tank. This will help prevent algae/slime build up, which is a leading cause of pump failure. This is especialy true with condensing furnaces without A/C (water stagnate all summer), or, on non-condensing furnaces that do have A/C (water stagnate all winter).

[K7SGJ]

It's also possible the installer of the original pump did'nt wire in the saftey switch. On most pumps, there are two leads coming from the float which are to be wired in series with the furnaces low voltage (24V) control circuit. If the float reaches the top of its travel limit, the N.C. contacts open, shutting down the furnace on completion of it's last cycle.


Sometimes, installers dont bother to wire this up (lazy), unless the equipment is located in an area where major damage from water could occur (like an attic). I have 30 years experience in HVAC, and HATE condensate pumps. I will only use one when there is absolutely no other option... and allways wire in the safety!


That's what the peckerwoods that put in our AC unit did. They bypassed the float switch to the shutdown on the unit. It overflowed and our hall ceiling collapsed. They had to pay to replace drywall, re-texture and paint all that plus some of the ceiling and walls in adjoining rooms. The bastids actually sent me a survey wanting me to rate their install and recommend their company. Yeah buddy, I'll be glad to tell your prospective customers what happened.

[W8XLR]

That's what the peckerwoods that put in our AC unit did. They bypassed the float switch to the shutdown on the unit. It overflowed and our hall ceiling collapsed. They had to pay to replace drywall, re-texture and paint all that plus some of the ceiling and walls in adjoining rooms. The bastids actually sent me a survey wanting me to rate their install and recommend their company. Yeah buddy, I'll be glad to tell your prospective customers what happened.

Un-fortunatly, crap like that is not an infrequent occurance. HVAC, like amateur radio, has been dumbed down. When I started back in '82 it was a highly skilled, technical, specialized and respectable trade. Now, it's all about marketing... "Sell the box, slam it in, grab the check". "Technicians" now are trained to be primarily sales persons, so as to milk every last cent possible out of the customer - not to be technicaly competent. More often than not, their jobs are dependent on their sales numbers, I.E., Service contracts and accessories. Back in the day, one had to have some knowlege (a clue) for trouble shooting... now all that's required is to count the number of times an LED flashes and look up the fault code on the equipment door.:doh:


I could rant on, but Ill spare you. Suffice it to say, alot of old school/old timers like myself have chosen to retire or go for themselves. In my case, self-employment has been very difficult to say the least (:wall:) - but atleast I can sleep at night, and my CLIENTS are happy.:agree:

One other thought... If you have a condensing furnace, A/C evaporator coil or air handler unit in your attic, it should have a water tight pan underneath it that is large enough to contain ALL the equipment. The pan should have atleast a 3/4'' pvc line running out of it to an eave over a window or other noticeable location. This way, no damage as you described can happen as you will see the water dripping and know you have a problem. This is code here, as well as a common sense FAILSAFE.:yes:

[K7SGJ]

Un-fortunatly, crap like that is not an infrequent occurance. HVAC, like amateur radio, has been dumbed down. When I started back in '82 it was a highly skilled, technical, specialized and respectable trade. Now, it's all about marketing... "Sell the box, slam it in, grab the check". "Technicians" now are trained to be primarily sales persons, so as to milk every last cent possible out of the customer - not to be technicaly competent. More often than not, their jobs are dependent on their sales numbers, I.E., Service contracts and accessories. Back in the day, one had to have some knowlege (a clue) for trouble shooting... now all that's required is to count the number of times an LED flashes and look up the fault code on the equipment door.:doh: I could rant on, but Ill spare you. Suffice it to say, alot of old school/old timers like myself have chosen to retire or go for themselves. In my case, self-employment has been very difficult to say the least (:wall:) - but atleast I can sleep at night, and my CLIENTS are happy.:agree:

One other thought... If you have a condensing furnace, A/C evaporator coil or air handler unit in your attic, it should have a water tight pan underneath it that is large enough to contain ALL the equipment. The pan should have atleast a 3/4'' pvc line running out of it to an eave over a window or other noticeable location. This way, no damage as you described can happen as you will see the water dripping and know you have a problem. This is code here, as well as a common sense FAILSAFE.:yes:

Yep, it does have the drip pan, okay, but it wasn't leveled, and the water went over the side instead of down the PVC, which, by the way, ran uphill. I truly went ballistic and they had to basically reinstall the whole damn thing. What gets me, is that they are highly recommended by Trane. I don't know if they still are, but Trane got an education about them. As a result, beside fixing all the damage and reinstalling most everything, I ended up with 5 years of n/c pm twice a year service. It's really dusty out here, and they have to clean the electronic air filter twice a year anyway. I really like the product, but the installing company really sucked. And their attitude seemed to imply, as you said, we got your $$ so go screw yourself. The bastids.

But like you say craftsmanship is a lost art. When I was in the service industry, I always felt that when I left a customers place, a little bit of me stayed behind. I've always been a firm believer in the adage "if you don't have time to do it right, when are you going to have time to do it over". But that's just me.

[kf0rt]

When I was in the service industry, I always felt that when I left a customers place, a little bit of me stayed behind. I've always been a firm believer in the adage "if you don't have time to do it right, when are you going to have time to do it over". But that's just me.

The good guys are still out there, but one has to be careful.

We're in the process of bringing a HUD home up to snuff for the kids (think it was shut down for about 18 months, but was winterized). Let's talk plumbers.

One of the first issues was to get the water turned on. HUD inspection indicated plumbing issues. Daughter found a plumber to check that out (via "referrals"). They came out and looked it all over for a half hour and promised to come back the next morning to do the work (I wasn't there for that). Was there the next morning when they showed up. Two guys, fancy truck. The water was still off. They showed up more or less on time and used an air compressor to check for water leaks; ended up replacing some valve seats in a shower, replaced the hot water valve for the washer/dryer and replaced the valve that feeds water to the dishwasher. $50 worth of parts, if that. A lot of time spent waiting for the compressor to charge the system, and more time spent waiting around to see if the pressure gauge went down (indicating a leak). They didn't have the washer valve "on the truck" (very common item, I'd think), so had to go to Home Depot to buy one. That took an hour, while idjut #2 just hung around. They showed up at about 7:45 AM and left by 11:15 AM. Add in the half hour from the night before, and it comes to about 4 hours (really don't know why this took two people).

Now, I "get" that time is money; totally cool with that. They left with a verbal promise that the house wouldn't flood when the city turned the water on. I also noticed that they charged 1.5 hours (x2) for the original meeting and 4.5 hours (x2) for the real work. Obviously charging travel time? I signed off on the work done. I'm thinking they rate a 'B' and am expecting it to cost somewhere around $600-$800.

Next day, daughter tries to get the bill. The first two bills they sent were from some other job for about $5,000. Clearly not our deal. Finally gets the real bill. Wanna guess?

$1,922. Works out to about $500/hr.

Fuck that. Called the owner of the outfit last Monday, fully prepared to get into it. Lots of excuses. "We bill by the job, not the hour." "We carry thousands of dollars of inventory in our trucks but cannot carry it all." Offered to drop it to $1,500 and I mailed a check. That was 5 days ago; hasn't cleared the bank yet. Dude should take it and run... I'm starting to get real "pissy" on this one.

[W8XLR]

The good guys are still out there, but one has to be careful.

We're in the process of bringing a HUD home up to snuff for the kids (think it was shut down for about 18 months, but was winterized). Let's talk plumbers.

One of the first issues was to get the water turned on. HUD inspection indicated plumbing issues. Daughter found a plumber to check that out (via "referrals"). They came out and looked it all over for a half hour and promised to come back the next morning to do the work (I wasn't there for that). Was there the next morning when they showed up. Two guys, fancy truck. The water was still off. They showed up more or less on time and used an air compressor to check for water leaks; ended up replacing some valve seats in a shower, replaced the hot water valve for the washer/dryer and replaced the valve that feeds water to the dishwasher. $50 worth of parts, if that. A lot of time spent waiting for the compressor to charge the system, and more time spent waiting around to see if the pressure gauge went down (indicating a leak). They didn't have the washer valve "on the truck" (very common item, I'd think), so had to go to Home Depot to buy one. That took an hour, while idjut #2 just hung around. They showed up at about 7:45 AM and left by 11:15 AM. Add in the half hour from the night before, and it comes to about 4 hours (really don't know why this took two people).

Now, I "get" that time is money; totally cool with that. They left with a verbal promise that the house wouldn't flood when the city turned the water on. I also noticed that they charged 1.5 hours (x2) for the original meeting and 4.5 hours (x2) for the real work. Obviously charging travel time? I signed off on the work done. I'm thinking they rate a 'B' and am expecting it to cost somewhere around $600-$800.

Next day, daughter tries to get the bill. The first two bills they sent were from some other job for about $5,000. Clearly not our deal. Finally gets the real bill. Wanna guess?

$1,922. Works out to about $500/hr.

Fuck that. Called the owner of the outfit last Monday, fully prepared to get into it. Lots of excuses. "We bill by the job, not the hour." "We carry thousands of dollars of inventory in our trucks but cannot carry it all." Offered to drop it to $1,500 and I mailed a check. That was 5 days ago; hasn't cleared the bank yet. Dude should take it and run... I'm starting to get real "pissy" on this one.

Dude, Your getting boned left and right without benefit of lube. My recomendation is spend $35 bucks or so and research the type of contractor you need on Angies List. There you'll be able to see real reports and recomendations, from real people like yourself, for contractors in your area.

The most I ever charged for labor was $130 per hour - and only because it was a nasty, un-maintained 50 year old oil furnace, in a dirt crawl space at 2 am in the morning. Otherwise, my normal rate is $80 per hour. This covers all my overhead (truck & stock, insurances, etc.) and still gives me a reasonable profit margin.

It's all about GREED... so do some homework before you caugh up anymore big cash... Just sayin.

[kf0rt]

Dude, Your getting boned left and right without benefit of lube. My recomendation is spend $35 bucks or so and research the type of contractor you need on Angies List. There you'll be able to see real reports and recomendations, from real people like yourself, for contractors in your area.

The most I ever charged for labor was $130 per hour - and only because it was a nasty, un-maintained 50 year old oil furnace, in a dirt crawl space at 2 am in the morning. Otherwise, my normal rate is $80 per hour. This covers all my overhead (truck & stock, insurances, etc.) and still gives me a reasonable profit margin.

It's all about GREED... so do some homework before you caugh up anymore big cash... Just sayin.


Ayup. Let my daughter pick this one -- she's now out of the subcontracting biz, seriously. Place is rated low on Angie's List (been a subscriber for some time). She was looking for a "handyman" service to take care of a lot of stuff and the place was recommended by the first place she called (because they didn't do plumbing).

Lesson learned, and one I already knew.

[W8XLR]

Ayup. Let my daughter pick this one -- she's now out of the subcontracting biz, seriously. Place is rated low on Angie's List (been a subscriber for some time). She was looking for a "handyman" service to take care of a lot of stuff and the place was recommended by the first place she called (because they didn't do plumbing).

Lesson learned, and one I already knew.

Aren't HUD houses supposed to be fully inspected, repaired and made ready for occupancy before their sold? The reason I ask is my Grandfather (greatest man who ever lived) was a HUD inspector. When I was a little boy, he would take me along on inspections, and I can tell you that he would fail a house if so much as a towel bar was crooked... I kid you not... No detail, however trivial, slipped past Don Hayman - he cared that someone was to live there and made dam sure it was RIGHT.

Ah... It was a different world then...:cry:

[K7SGJ]

Aren't HUD houses supposed to be fully inspected, repaired and made ready for occupancy before their sold? The reason I ask is my Grandfather (greatest man who ever lived) was a HUD inspector. When I was a little boy, he would take me along on inspections, and I can tell you that he would fail a house if so much as a towel bar was crooked... I kid you not.

Ah... It was a different world then...:cry:

No kidding. Now days, they'd just smack the high side with a dead blow.

[VE7MGF]

not trying to jack the thread just a question
my condensate pump feeds into the washing machine drain stack
but the washer pumps the discharge stronger than the pipe can drain it away
is there a check valve that can installed in line to the furnace pump discharge line
then i could seal up both lines and keep the washer from pumping water into the furnace drain line

[W8XLR]

not trying to jack the thread just a question
my condensate pump feeds into the washing machine drain stack
but the washer pumps the discharge stronger than the pipe can drain it away
is there a check valve that can installed in line to the furnace pump discharge line
then i could seal up both lines and keep the washer from pumping water into the furnace drain line

Most newer pumps have a check valve built into the barb fitting at the pump. However, apparently yours doesnt. If you can access the pump discharge tubing, I would recomend re-routing it to a different place, like a deep sink next to the washer? The two shouldent be combine without an air gap. More details needed here ...

See here, down the page: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/condensatepumps.html

Or here: http://www.hartell.com/corp/details/0,,CLI1_DIV32_ETI3894,00.html

[kb2crk]

not trying to jack the thread just a question
my condensate pump feeds into the washing machine drain stack
but the washer pumps the discharge stronger than the pipe can drain it away
is there a check valve that can installed in line to the furnace pump discharge line
then i could seal up both lines and keep the washer from pumping water into the furnace drain line


If the washer drain can't take what the washer is putting out then it is either
1. partially clogged
2. not properly vented
3. undersized.
bets would be on the venting with a partial plug a close second. the hose should not have to be sealed the pipe as there should be a trap in the line within a couple feet.

[kf0rt]

Aren't HUD houses supposed to be fully inspected, repaired and made ready for occupancy before their sold? The reason I ask is my Grandfather (greatest man who ever lived) was a HUD inspector. When I was a little boy, he would take me along on inspections, and I can tell you that he would fail a house if so much as a towel bar was crooked... I kid you not... No detail, however trivial, slipped past Don Hayman - he cared that someone was to live there and made dam sure it was RIGHT.

Ah... It was a different world then...:cry:

Not today. They do inspect, but not very well. HUD homes are now sold "as-is" with a forced escrow on what they find (escrow is rolled into the loan from what I can tell).

Lots of stuff missed. Garage door had a broken spring (not listed on the report, took me 5 seconds to find). Several wall outlets are marked "RP" (reversed polarity). I've confirmed this. Other outlets are marked "dead" but are just connected to wall switches and work fine if you flip the switch. The escrow deal and inspection is mostly cosmetic BS. Open drains in the basement with no p-traps; not listed. Yet, they listed a missing A/C unit and exterior trim paint. I'm not impressed. Shit that doesn't even approach "code" today, but easily mitigated (I hope).

Most of this is within my DIY capabilities. Plan to run out there tomorrow and replace a bunch of electrical outlets and switches. Next up is washer and dryer; may not meet code, but it'll be safe. The weirdest part of the whole deal is that the washer hookup for water is on the other side of a wall from the drain. Drain needs to be re-done completely. For a good time, name all of the code violations in this pic:

7613

I'ts really not (quite) as ghetto as it looks, but the water feed for the washer is on the other side of the left wall. Did anyone ever have a washer / dryer here? Lots of mysteries.

[kb2crk]

Not today. They do inspect, but not very well. HUD homes are now sold "as-is" with a forced escrow on what they find (escrow is rolled into the loan from what I can tell).

Lots of stuff missed. Garage door had a broken spring (not listed on the report, took me 5 seconds to find). Several wall outlets are marked "RP" (reversed polarity). I've confirmed this. Other outlets are marked "dead" but are just connected to wall switches and work fine if you flip the switch. The escrow deal and inspection is mostly cosmetic BS. Open drains in the basement with no p-traps; not listed. Yet, they listed a missing A/C unit and exterior trim paint. I'm not impressed. Shit that doesn't even approach "code" today, but easily mitigated (I hope).

Most of this is within my DIY capabilities. Plan to run out there tomorrow and replace a bunch of electrical outlets and switches. Next up is washer and dryer; may not meet code, but it'll be safe. The weirdest part of the whole deal is that the washer hookup for water is on the other side of a wall from the drain. Drain needs to be re-done completely. For a good time, name all of the code violations in this pic:

7613

I'ts really not (quite) as ghetto as it looks, but the water feed for the washer is on the other side of the left wall. Did anyone ever have a washer / dryer here? Lots of mysteries.

I don't have a couple days to point them all out.
But the exposed romex on the dryer outlet, the washer drain having no trap and dumping into a vent line for another drain are two very obvious one

[W8XLR]

I don't have a couple days to point them all out.
But the exposed romex on the dryer outlet, the washer drain having no trap and dumping into a vent line for another drain are two very obvious one

Uhhh ya... Im with CRK here, you got some work ahead... If we were playing "where's Waldo" with that shot we could be here a while...

Seriously though, good luck with the project OM. I have a daughter too (26yrs old) so I feel your pain...:shock: And so does my bank account!:irked:

[kf0rt]

This is the worst part of the house. Dunno what anyone had in mind there. The 220 feed for the dryer is just a wire hanging out. The 4" drain is a total WTF. 2" drain is capped, 4" drain is open. Plan is to cut out the drain pipe and install a new section with a p-trap and just one inlet for the washer (the stubs go nowhere). Whadda mess, though.

[KC2UGV]

I don't have a couple days to point them all out.
But the exposed romex on the dryer outlet, the washer drain having no trap and dumping into a vent line for another drain are two very obvious one

Exposed Romex is ok in many jurisdictions, such as mine. You don't need to cover it with races or anything like that.

Now... The fact it's not fastened down is a problem in most jurisdictions.

[WØTKX]

You should see what I did for 220 to power the SB-221 in my last place. :shifty:

[XE1/N5AL]

You should see what I did for 220 to power the SB-221 in my last place. :shifty:
Automotive jumper cables? :)

[K7SGJ]

You should see what I did for 220 to power the SB-221 in my last place. :shifty:

146.7 "D" cells? In series

[AE7RZ]

Thanks for the explanation.

But now you have me a little worried.

2 winters ago, I come home to find a big puddle on the basement floor. Short story is that the condensate pump on our furnace had failed. $400 later, new pump has replaced the old one... but what I'm now wondering is why the furnace didn't shut down when the pump failed?

Of course, the simple answer might be that because the pump was leaking the condensate onto the floor, it wasn't being retained in the furnace, thus no reason for the furnace to shut off.

And frankly, if it was feasible & financially possible, I'd have the floor drain extended to the furnace area, rather than continue with the Rube Goldberg-like routing of the plastic tubing from the furnace to the utility sink in the laundry area. It's not though. But I have some alternative ideas for that, as part of the overall basement redesign.

The pump is supposed to have a safety switch that will open the low voltage circuit in the event of overflow(it was probably never wired in-line). The furnace will not be able to obtain the pressure difference required to close the "pressure sensor". This sensor proves to the furnace controls that the combustion fan is running and the collector is free of condensation. Your furnace collector box was probably clear as all the condensation made it to the pump but not out.

[AE7RZ]

Un-fortunatly, crap like that is not an infrequent occurance. HVAC, like amateur radio, has been dumbed down. When I started back in '82 it was a highly skilled, technical, specialized and respectable trade. Now, it's all about marketing... "Sell the box, slam it in, grab the check". "Technicians" now are trained to be primarily sales persons, so as to milk every last cent possible out of the customer - not to be technicaly competent. More often than not, their jobs are dependent on their sales numbers, I.E., Service contracts and accessories. Back in the day, one had to have some knowlege (a clue) for trouble shooting... now all that's required is to count the number of times an LED flashes and look up the fault code on the equipment door.:doh:


I could rant on, but Ill spare you. Suffice it to say, alot of old school/old timers like myself have chosen to retire or go for themselves. In my case, self-employment has been very difficult to say the least (:wall:) - but atleast I can sleep at night, and my CLIENTS are happy.:agree:

One other thought... If you have a condensing furnace, A/C evaporator coil or air handler unit in your attic, it should have a water tight pan underneath it that is large enough to contain ALL the equipment. The pan should have atleast a 3/4'' pvc line running out of it to an eave over a window or other noticeable location. This way, no damage as you described can happen as you will see the water dripping and know you have a problem. This is code here, as well as a common sense FAILSAFE.:yes:

Around here it is becoming more and more difficult to find a technician that can even count the flashing LED's. They've got thermostats that will display the fault and then they still get it wrong. It is SO easy to repair a problem by replacing the system. :(
I, too, have been in HVAC for 30 years and until I came to Arizona I never saw a system in an attic without a secondary drain pan. All over the place around here. It is not code but should be.

[W8XLR]

Around here it is becoming more and more difficult to find a technician that can even count the flashing LED's. They've got thermostats that will display the fault and then they still get it wrong. It is SO easy to repair a problem by replacing the system. :(
I, too, have been in HVAC for 30 years and until I came to Arizona I never saw a system in an attic without a secondary drain pan. All over the place around here. It is not code but should be.

Yes, the Carrier/Bryant Infinity control... Theoretically idiot proof...:chin: and depending on the company, the "tech" is under extreme pressure to make his/her sales number so will apply the same pressure on the customer to replace perfectly good entire systems... instead of the simple part like a contactor or flame sensor that he has on his truck...:twisted:


Arizona huh?, I bet those summer installs and service calls in the attics are loads 'o fun! I started out in Jacksonville, Fla. Those attics were quite warm, and most all of the equipment is in attics because there are no basements due to the high water table. That God forsaken town & state got old quick, so I came home here to Ohio after only a couple years, and the rest is history.;)


Tell me something; Ive heard that in Arizona, most of the residential condensing units are located on the roofs, and the reason for this is to keep the rattle snakes & gihla monsters out. I guess at night they like to coil up around the compressor to keep warm... any truth here? :wtf: I could just imagine pulling a panel off and getting a nasty, day ruining surprize!:shock:

[kf0rt]

Got another related question...

Read somewhere that the condensate from these high-efficiency furnaces is nasty / caustic. True? What's the story?

Thanks in advance.

[KC2UGV]

Got another related question...

Read somewhere that the condensate from these high-efficiency furnaces is nasty / caustic. True? What's the story?

Thanks in advance.

The pH from mine is 4.1, and it came up hot for trace heavy metals.

Caustic? 4 is about a can of carbonated soda. "Trace" was determined by my own testing, but they were at a level too low to identify.

[kf0rt]

The pH from mine is 4.1, and it came up hot for trace heavy metals.

Caustic? 4 is about a can of carbonated soda. "Trace" was determined by my own testing, but they were at a level too low to identify.


Interesting, Corey. Now I wonder if testing it is common. (Had to empty a bucket the hard way today; kinda curious.)

[KC2UGV]

Interesting, Corey. Now I wonder if testing it is common. (Had to empty a bucket the hard way today; kinda curious.)

I don't know. I simply evaporated the water, and used the "burn test" on the particulate to see the color of the flame. The flame color was off, but not by a discernible amount. I'm sure you could send it to a lab for testing. Generally runs about $150 for a general screening.

[W8XLR]

Got another related question...

Read somewhere that the condensate from these high-efficiency furnaces is nasty / caustic. True? What's the story?

Thanks in advance.

This is true, the condensate from a high efficiency furnace is quite caustic, about the Ph of a strong vinegar. This is why the secondary heat exchangers in these types of furnaces are made of stainless steel, and the venting/drainage is plastic. Im no chemist, but I know the by products from combustion of natural gas (Methane) are far less toxic than those of home heating oil.

IOW, dont drink it... but dont worry about it either.