Mass shooting kills 7 in Sihh temple

[PA5COR]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shooting-oak-creek-sikh-temple-milwaukee-oak-creek/story?id=16933779#.UB6nKRzy1_U

Seven people are dead after a mass shooting at a (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/milwaukee-hospital-treating-shot-sikh-temple-16934301) Sikh temple (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/mass-shooting-sikh-temple-wisconsin-16934304) in the Milwaukee suburb of Oak Creek, Wisconsin this morning, according to police.
Two others, a civilian and a police officer, were injured and were being treated at a local hospital. At least one suspected shooter is among the dead, Greenfield, Wisc., police chief Brad Wentlandt said today.
Police are still trying to determine if there was another shooter involved in the attack, during which at least one gunman walked into the temple around 10:25 a.m. and opened fire. Wentlandt said the calls reporting different shooters may be separate reports of the same gunman.

************************************************** ************************************************** **


Here's what's going to happen:
1. The police and the emergency respondents will do their absolute best to investigate the crime and assist the wounded. That's actually happening right now. The truth is, our police, although they have their issues, are generally pretty good at what they do, and our EMTs and emergency care facilities are excellent.

2. There will be substantial media attention, the extent of which will depend on the number of people who were shot. If enough people are shot, a special mournful dirge will be written (as it was with the Aurora shootings).

3. In a day or so, various politicians will state that "our hearts and prayers are with the victims and their families."

4. Many people will find themselves without medical insurance to cover their injuries, and will have to beg the community to pay for their bills, or the medical providers to reduce or waive them.

5. Some freakin' jackass like Allen West will claim that if he had been there packing heat, he could have shot the perpetrator dead. And there will be "other blame the victims for being unarmed"

6. The gun industry will benefit as sales of whatever weapon was used here will go up. The more people who are killed the better the sales will be.

7. People like me who criticize the ready availability of firearms capable of this type of mass killings will be criticized as "politicizing" the event.

8. The whole thing will be forgotten by the general public (but certainly not the victims) in two weeks, max.

9. Another massacre will occur. Repeat steps 1 through 8.

:roll:

[WØTKX]

I was gonna post it too, but I decided the pro gun fanatics would be upset. :roll:

[n2ize]

Well we must admit. This action doesn't represent the majority of gun owners.

[N8YX]

I was gonna post it too, but I decided the pro gun fanatics would be upset. :roll:
Pro-gun =/= pro-violence. False equivalence at its bestworst.


This action doesn't represent the majority of gun owners.
No, it doesn't. Not by a long shot.

[KC2UGV]

Pro-gun =/= pro-violence. False equivalence at its bestworst.


Pro-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence.



No, it doesn't. Not by a long shot.

So, why don't all these responsible gun owners come up with a plan to get this kind of shit to stop. And, no "More Guns" is not a solution, anymore than "More Gasoline" is the solution to fires.

[NQ6U]

It's just like I said (https://forums.hamisland.net/showthread.php/22251-Mass-casualties-in-Denver-(Aurora)-area?p=457304&viewfull=1#post457304)...

[n2ize]

Pro-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence.




So, why don't all these responsible gun owners come up with a plan to get this kind of shit to stop. And, no "More Guns" is not a solution, anymore than "More Gasoline" is the solution to fires.

What we need are to bring back the insane asylums. In decades gone by we used to put nutcases who couldn't function into insane asylums. Then we decided to medicate them, send them on the loose, and close the insane asylums. Now I admit, not all the asylums were nice places, but, at least they kept the screwloooses where they cpouldn't harm themselves or others.

[WX7P]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shooting-oak-creek-sikh-temple-milwaukee-oak-creek/story?id=16933779#.UB6nKRzy1_U

Seven people are dead after a mass shooting at a (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/milwaukee-hospital-treating-shot-sikh-temple-16934301) Sikh temple (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/mass-shooting-sikh-temple-wisconsin-16934304) in the Milwaukee suburb of Oak Creek, Wisconsin this morning, according to police.
Two others, a civilian and a police officer, were injured and were being treated at a local hospital. At least one suspected shooter is among the dead, Greenfield, Wisc., police chief Brad Wentlandt said today.
Police are still trying to determine if there was another shooter involved in the attack, during which at least one gunman walked into the temple around 10:25 a.m. and opened fire. Wentlandt said the calls reporting different shooters may be separate reports of the same gunman.

************************************************** ************************************************** **


Here's what's going to happen:
1. The police and the emergency respondents will do their absolute best to investigate the crime and assist the wounded. That's actually happening right now. The truth is, our police, although they have their issues, are generally pretty good at what they do, and our EMTs and emergency care facilities are excellent.

2. There will be substantial media attention, the extent of which will depend on the number of people who were shot. If enough people are shot, a special mournful dirge will be written (as it was with the Aurora shootings).

3. In a day or so, various politicians will state that "our hearts and prayers are with the victims and their families."

4. Many people will find themselves without medical insurance to cover their injuries, and will have to beg the community to pay for their bills, or the medical providers to reduce or waive them.

5. Some freakin' jackass like Allen West will claim that if he had been there packing heat, he could have shot the perpetrator dead. And there will be "other blame the victims for being unarmed"

6. The gun industry will benefit as sales of whatever weapon was used here will go up. The more people who are killed the better the sales will be.

7. People like me who criticize the ready availability of firearms capable of this type of mass killings will be criticized as "politicizing" the event.

8. The whole thing will be forgotten by the general public (but certainly not the victims) in two weeks, max.

9. Another massacre will occur. Repeat steps 1 through 8.

:roll:

You left out that if Charlton Heston was still alive, there'd be some NRA sponsored event in the town where the massacre occurred.

(edit)- Also Wayne LaPierre will claim the atrocity is an isolated incident and the guy who did was just nuts.

[KC2UGV]

What we need are to bring back the insane asylums. In decades gone by we used to put nutcases who couldn't function into insane asylums. Then we decided to medicate them, send them on the loose, and close the insane asylums. Now I admit, not all the asylums were nice places, but, at least they kept the screwloooses where they cpouldn't harm themselves or others.

We have insane asylums.

[n2ize]

The same kind of killing could have happened with almost any kind of rifle. As fast as you can squeeze the trigger you can kill. So, I giess we need to ban all guns ?

[n2ize]

We have insane asylums.

Not enough. During the late 70' and 80's a lot of em were shut down. The result... More and more crazies on the loose.

[ki4itv]

What we need are to bring back the insane asylums. In decades gone by we used to put nutcases who couldn't function into insane asylums. Then we decided to medicate them, send them on the loose, and close the insane asylums. Now I admit, not all the asylums were nice places, but, at least they kept the screwloooses where they cpouldn't harm themselves or others.

Uhmmm, WE didn't. Ronald Reagan did.
My mother actually predicted an outcome not too dissimilar from current events at that time. Though I doubt that she was the only clinical social worker who felt that way.

[K8LET]

Uh oh... don't mess with the Sikhs....

[ad4mg]

It's just like I said (https://forums.hamisland.net/showthread.php/22251-Mass-casualties-in-Denver-%28Aurora%29-area?p=457304&viewfull=1#post457304)...

Yup, Corey is here to repeat his same, tired, old anti-gun bullshit again.

WTF, man, you got a life?

I'll lock this one pronto if it gets ugly like the last one.

6691

[KC2UGV]

The same kind of killing could have happened with almost any kind of rifle. As fast as you can squeeze the trigger you can kill. So, I giess we need to ban all guns ?

Who is talking about banning guns?

[KB3LAZ]

Pro-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence.



So, why don't all these responsible gun owners come up with a plan to get this kind of shit to stop. And, no "More Guns" is not a solution, anymore than "More Gasoline" is the solution to fires.

Damn, I never knew I was a violent man. Thank you for clearing that up.

[KC2UGV]

Yup, Corey is here to repeat his same, tired, old anti-gun bullshit again.

WTF, man, you got a life?

I'll lock this one pronto if it gets ugly like the last one.

6691

I'm not anti-gun (I'm a gun owner). I'm anti-irresponsible gun industry.

I'm starting to think gun nuts have a serious reading comprehension issue, when it comes to the subject of guns...

[KC2UGV]

Damn, I never knew I was a violent man. Thank you for clearing that up.

You're pro-gun at any costs?

If so, then yes.

[ad4mg]

Who is talking about banning guns?

You asked that in the last 37 gun threads. It begins your circular argument anew.

At least find some new material, dude. Really. Or just copy and paste your previous rantings from other threads. That should give you a little time to find a life.

[ad4mg]

I'm not anti-gun (I'm a gun owner). I'm anti-irresponsible gun industry.

I'm starting to think gun nuts have a serious reading comprehension issue, when it comes to the subject of guns...

I'm starting, no, I've concluded you salivate at the keyboard awaiting the opportunity to jump into another gun thread and fling shit at everyone who doesn't agree with you.

[KB3LAZ]

You're pro-gun at any costs?

If so, then yes.

Those were your words. Not Fred's or mine. Just trying to understand. Pro gun = pro gun at any cost or so it appeared with your post. If that is not the case then I misunderstood. If that is in fact the case then anyone that is pro gun at any time is therefore pro gun at any cost and therefore a violent man/woman. See what I am saying, that is just silly.

[KC2UGV]

You asked that in the last 37 gun threads. It begins your circular argument anew.

At least find some new material, dude. Really. Or just copy and paste your previous rantings from other threads. That should give you a little time to find a life.

Yes, I ask that, because gun nuts are the first to ever bring it up...


I'm starting, no, I've concluded you salivate at the keyboard awaiting the opportunity to jump into another gun thread and fling shit at everyone who doesn't agree with you.

I've concluded you, among others, will jump to defend the indefensible, based only on your emotional attachment to a lump of metal.

[ad4mg]

Those were your words. Not Fred's or mine. Just trying to understand. Pro gun = pro gun at any cost or so it appeared with your post. If that is not the case then I misunderstood. If that is in fact the case then anyone that is pro gun at any time is therefore pro gun at any cost and therefore a violent man/woman. See what I am saying, that is just silly.

Silly it is, Travis. Twist, distort, annoy, anything to get a rise out of anyone who disagrees with him on this particular subject. It got old 12 gun threads ago.

[KC2UGV]

Those were your words. Not Fred's or mine. Just trying to understand. Pro gun = pro gun at any cost or so it appeared with your post. If that is not the case then I misunderstood. If that is in fact the case then anyone that is pro gun at any time is therefore pro gun at any cost and therefore a violent man/woman. See what I am saying, that is just silly.

My words:

"Pro-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence."

[KC2UGV]

Silly it is, Travis. Twist, distort, annoy, anything to get a rise out of anyone who disagrees with him on this particular subject. It got old 12 gun threads ago.

As you are often fond of saying,"You are free to not click on the thread".

[ad4mg]

Yes, I ask that, because gun nuts are the first to ever bring it up...



I've concluded you, among others, will jump to defend the indefensible, based only on your emotional attachment to a lump of metal.

What I've concluded is that you shit in every thread of this type with your nonsense. I can put an end to that.

Done.

EDIT: Now, it's undone. It's grossly unfair to all the members who want to discuss yet another national tragedy.

I know the adults here will recall what the title of the thread is, and move forward accordingly. I can only hope others will stay out of the discussion unless they can conduct themselves properly.

I apologize to those interested in this discussion for locking the thread.

[K7SGJ]

My words:

"Pro-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence."

If one were to stop and examine this stoopid statement, it would be quite obvious it's a troll. "At any and all costs WOULD INCLUDE VIOLENCE. Just as anti-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence. But then, I would expect no less from you on any discussion involving a firearm of any kind.

Geeze. You will have to do a lot better than that.

[NY3V]

Who is talking about banning guns?

Yeah, we only have to ban the sale of ammunition.

Then the boys can continue to play with their toys.

Bang Bang

[NQ6U]

I heard that the FBI has taken over the investigation and is calling this a case of "domestic terrorism." How much do you want to bet that it's another case of some ignorant fuck who doesn't understand the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim?

[KC2UGV]

If one were to stop and examine this stoopid statement, it would be quite obvious it's a troll. "At any and all costs WOULD INCLUDE VIOLENCE. Just as anti-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence. But then, I would expect no less from you on any discussion involving a firearm of any kind.

Geeze. You will have to do a lot better than that.

You mean "If ballots don't work, bullets will"?

[W4GPL]

How much do you want to bet that it's another case of some ignorant fuck who doesn't understand the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim?No bet.

[ki4itv]

I wouldn't take that bet, even if I did have money.

[K7SGJ]

I heard that the FBI has taken over the investigation and is calling this a case of "domestic terrorism." How much do you want to bet that it's another case of some ignorant fuck who doesn't understand the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim?

That happened here, shortly after 9/11. The ARCO station I used to go, at 3am on the way to work for fuel, coffee, lotto tickets, or all the above. was owned by a guy who was Sikh. Naturally, he wore a turban. He was a really nice guy, and fun to talk with. Anyway, one morning, some guy came in earlier than me, and killed the guy because he thought the owner was an evil Muslim. I was really dumbfounded when I pulled in and there were a zillion cops, fire, and paramedics milling around. Needless to say, I got chased off rather quickly. When I heard about it on the news later in the day, I couldn't believe it. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the same shit.

[WX7P]

That happened here, shortly after 9/11. The ARCO station I used to go, at 3am on the way to work for fuel, coffee, lotto tickets, or all the above. was owned by a guy who was Sikh. Naturally, he wore a turban. He was a really nice guy, and fun to talk with. Anyway, one morning, some guy came in earlier than me, and killed the guy because he thought the owner was an evil Muslim. I was really dumbfounded when I pulled in and there were a zillion cops, fire, and paramedics milling around. Needless to say, I got chased off rather quickly. When I heard about it on the news later in the day, I couldn't believe it. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the same shit.

That tracks with some of the dumbasses in Tulelake that didn't want an abandoned hotel torn down and replaced with condos. They thought the condos would house terrorists since the developer had a funny name. He was East Indian.

What a bunch of dumbfucks we have in this country.

[NQ6U]

That happened here, shortly after 9/11. The ARCO station I used to go, at 3am on the way to work for fuel, coffee, lotto tickets, or all the above. was owned by a guy who was Sikh. Naturally, he wore a turban. He was a really nice guy, and fun to talk with. Anyway, one morning, some guy came in earlier than me, and killed the guy because he thought the owner was an evil Muslim.[...]

That's the incident that made me think that today's shooting was a similar event. The ignorance of America's great unwashed truly is astounding.

[K7SGJ]

That's the incident that made me think that today's shooting was a similar event. The ignorance of America's great unwashed truly is astounding.


Hard to believe that kind of ignorance is alive and well and on our streets. And Janet was right on about the dumbfuks. There should be more than enough of them to start their own party. Asshats

[PA5COR]

Your FBI tracks 2500+ hate groups, in the USA you already had several hate killings and if this is another one which we don't know yet, blame Glenn Beck, Fatso and all the shills fro the ultra right wing calling them to action, just like Breitvik here was an ardent follower of shrill Pamela Geller...
Make them responsabel for the hate they sowed and the actions that followed that, just like we do to Muslim Mullahs that spread hate in their holy houses, they ge arrested or deported back from where they came, or get a due process and time in jail for spreading hate speech.

When you as person like Rush Geller Glenn spread hate you should be held accountable for it, specially in a country where fire arms are so easily to get.
A few headlines from the last months:
The small North Dakota town of Cooperstown has been forever changed by its first murder in 80 years – a brutal decapitation-killing carried out by a racist, a state’s attorney says.

The number of anti government “Patriot” groups grew at an astounding pace last year, as it has in all three years of the Obama presidency, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s (SPLC) annual count of extremist groups, released today. The number of these groups rose from 824 in 2010 to 1,274 last year.

The little-known Church at Kaweah in California boasts of a “militant Christian separatist worldview” (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/onward-christian-soldiers) and is training its congregants for armed combat against the “New World Order.”
Four members of a Georgia militia were in their late 60s and 70s, but officials say that didn’t stop them from planning assassinations, bombings and biological attacks. (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/militia-madness)
Breaking a long silence, the son of the neo-Nazi who murdered a guard at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum describes (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/one-more-victim) how his father ruined his life. Now, Erik von Brunn is just trying to survive.
There are dozens of these, it becomes epidemic.


Since 2000, the number of hate groups has increased by 69 percent. This surge has been fuelled by anger and fear over the nation’s ailing economy, an influx of non-white immigrants, and the diminishing white majority, as symbolised by the election of the nation’s first African-American president.
These factors also are feeding a powerful resurgence of the anti government “Patriot” movement, which in the 1990s led to a string of domestic terrorist plots, including the Oklahoma City bombing. The number of Patriot groups, including armed militias, grew by 755 percent in the first three years of the Obama administration – from 149 at the end of 2008 to 1,274 in 2011.
This growth in extremism has been aided by mainstream media figures and politicians who have used their platforms to legitimise false propaganda about immigrants and other minorities and spread the kind of paranoid conspiracy theories on which militia groups thrive.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-incidents a more extended list of hate crimes.

[KB3LAZ]

You know, if nothing else, people have proven that extreme thinking exists on all ends of the political spectrum. I guess it is just time to come to the realization that some types of threads are destined to become something other than they are meant to be and that commentary is worthless.

Carry on and enjoy.

[ad4mg]

You mean "If ballots don't work, bullets will"?

Naw, Eddie was pretty clear about what he meant. Here, let me help you. He said you are a troll who says stupid shit in gun threads. So, he didn't mean what you insinuated (distorted) at all. English is a wonderful language when you can muster the discipline to actually understand it. You'll arrive at that point somewhere down the road.

[PA5COR]

Maybe i'll arrive there too sometimes, till that time you all will have to do with my writings.
I call things as i see them, WYSIWYG.
I'll refer to my first post and conclusions in that, i never wanted it to become another gun thread to be honest...sorry about that.

[KB3LAZ]

Maybe i'll arrive there too sometimes, till that time you all will have to do with my writings.
I call things as i see them, WYSIWYG.
I'll refer to my first post and conclusions in that, i never wanted it to become another gun thread to be honest...sorry about that.

Well all know that, Cor, no worries.

[KJ3N]

How much do you want to bet that it's another case of some ignorant fuck who doesn't understand the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim?

No bet. That's too easy.

Just what percentage of paranoid, frightened, white America do you think knows the difference? I'd be willing to bet that number never exceeds double digits.

[KJ3N]

Hard to believe that kind of ignorance is alive and well and on our streets.

No, it's not. You're just naive.

[kf0rt]

The man who shot six people to death and wounded three others during a rampage at a Sikh temple in a Milwaukee suburb was an Army veteran who may have been a white supremacist, according to a law enforcement source involved in the investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[K7SGJ]

No, it's not. You're just naive.

It's not really a matter of being "naive". It's more a matter of a rational mind having trouble understanding irrational act. Just like people who abuse their kids, or kill them and throw their bodies in a dumpster. I just have trouble understanding how anyone can have such a low value of life, and actually feel they are justified in the taking of anothers life; no matter how it's done, where it's done, or the weapon used,

[KC2UGV]

Naw, Eddie was pretty clear about what he meant. Here, let me help you. He said you are a troll who says stupid shit in gun threads. So, he didn't mean what you insinuated (distorted) at all. English is a wonderful language when you can muster the discipline to actually understand it. You'll arrive at that point somewhere down the road.

Let's look at what he said:

"If one were to stop and examine this stoopid statement, it would be quite obvious it's a troll. "At any and all costs WOULD INCLUDE VIOLENCE. Just as anti-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence. But then, I would expect no less from you on any discussion involving a firearm of any kind.

Geeze. You will have to do a lot better than that."

When you defend the ability of anyone to get any gun they like, and as much ammo as they like; and when meeting resistance of such desires, it is then expressed "If ballots don't work, bullets will", then that is pro-gun at any and all costs, up to, and including violence.

That's not a troll. I am addressing the disease, and not just the symptoms.

Funny how pro-gun folk can't be trolling. Bringing a level approach to the subject is "Trolling". Looks like you're emotional attachment to your lump of metal is showing again.

[N1LAF]

Blame it on Global warming!

[K7SGJ]

Let's look at what he said:

"If one were to stop and examine this stoopid statement, it would be quite obvious it's a troll. "At any and all costs WOULD INCLUDE VIOLENCE. Just as anti-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence. But then, I would expect no less from you on any discussion involving a firearm of any kind.

Geeze. You will have to do a lot better than that."

When you defend the ability of anyone to get any gun they like, and as much ammo as they like; and when meeting resistance of such desires, it is then expressed "If ballots don't work, bullets will", then that is pro-gun at any and all costs, up to, and including violence.

That's not a troll. I am addressing the disease, and not just the symptoms.

Funny how pro-gun folk can't be trolling. Bringing a level approach to the subject is "Trolling". Looks like you're emotional attachment to your lump of metal is showing again.

I've written several posts to address yours, and I keep pressing delete. Should have probably done the same with this one. I finally decided there is no way to have a meaningful and objective dialog with stoopid, irrelevant, and repetitive comments.

Deal me out of this one. Bye

[N1LAF]

OK, blame it on Climate Change!

[PA5COR]

The man who allegedly murdered six people at a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee yesterday, identified in media reports as Wade Michael Page, was a frustrated neo-Nazi who had been the leader of a racist white-power band.

http://cdna.splcenter.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/michaelpage.jpg
In 2010, Page, then the leader of the band End Apathy, gave an interview (http://www.label56.com/2012/05/end-apathy-interview/) to the white supremacist website Label 56. He said that when he started the band in 2005, its name reflected his wish to “figure out how to end people’s apathetic ways” and start “moving forward.” “I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back,” Page said. Later, he added, “The inspiration was based on frustration that we have the potential to accomplish so much more as individuals and a society in whole.” He did not discuss violence in the interview.

Page told the website that he had been a part of the white power music scene since 2000, when he left his native Colorado on a motorcycle. He attended white power concerts in Georgia, North Carolina, West Virginia and Colorado. At various times, he said, he also played in the hate rock bands Youngland (2001-2003), Celtic Warrior, Radikahl, Max Resist, Intimidation One, Aggressive Force and Blue Eyed Devils. End Apathy, he said, included “Brent” on bass and “Ozzie” on drums; the men were former members of Definite Hate and another band, 13 Knots.


In 2000, the Southern Poverty Law Center has found that Page also attempted to purchase goods from the neo-Nazi National Alliance (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/shipwreck-ten-years-after-the-death-of-its-founder-the-once-dominant-national-alli), then America’s most important hate group.
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/08/06/bulletin-alleged-sikh-temple-shooter-member-of-neo-nazi-group/

White guy nominally "Christian" carried out mass killing killing a lot of people....and yet no drive in America reflect on how this country is so violent and leads the civilized world in such behavior (and by leads its like a huge lead).
But if those 2 criminals were Muslims carrying out domestic terrorism we would see freaked out hysteria.
The only freaked out hysteria we will now see is:
A) Right wingers trying to distance their ideology from the behavior it caused in the Sikh temple massacre.
B) More Americans buying more guns to stave off the imaginary zombie apocalypse in their fevered brains.


See post 1 in this thread....

[PA5COR]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/2676/large/TMW2012-08-08colorKOS.png?1344005718 (http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/2676/lightbox/TMW2012-08-08colorKOS.png?1344005718)

[K8LET]

Well, he probably didn't confuse Muslims and Sikhs.. he probably just didn't care.

[KJ3N]

Well, he probably didn't confuse Muslims and Sikhs.. he probably just didn't care.

They weren't White. That's all that mattered.

[KJ3N]

I just have trouble understanding how anyone can have such a low value of life, and actually feel they are justified in the taking of anothers life; no matter how it's done, where it's done, or the weapon used,

It's in The Bible. Praise The Lord!

It's in The Quoran. Allah be praised!

See the pattern yet?

[N8YX]

It's in The Bible. Praise The Lord!

It's in The Quoran. Allah be praised!

See the pattern yet?
Can we ship all of the extremists off to some island and let them do each other in, thereby allowing the rest of us to live in peace?

[KC2UGV]

I've written several posts to address yours, and I keep pressing delete. Should have probably done the same with this one. I finally decided there is no way to have a meaningful and objective dialog with stoopid, irrelevant, and repetitive comments.

Deal me out of this one. Bye

"Meaningful conversation" doesn't entail one party going to the extreme of promoting guns above any other issue. Yes, when you repeat lame talking points about how being pro-gun is "patriotic" or other such cruft, I'll just repeat my replies to that.

If you have some other point, such as how to address violence like this, I'm open to it. And, again, no, "More guns" is not a solution, anymore than "More gas" is the solution to a house fire.

[KB3LAZ]

"Meaningful conversation" doesn't entail one party going to the extreme of promoting guns above any other issue. Yes, when you repeat lame talking points about how being pro-gun is "patriotic" or other such cruft, I'll just repeat my replies to that.

If you have some other point, such as how to address violence like this, I'm open to it. And, again, no, "More guns" is not a solution, anymore than "More gas" is the solution to a house fire.

You fight lame talking points with lame talking points? Two lames dont make it entertaining?

[W1GUH]

One of the recurring themes in this thread is the "collective stupidity" of the so-called great unwashed. Don't think there's much to actually do about that -- seems endemic to our culture. Also, I read somewhere (and sure wish I could credit the author) something like, "The IQ of any group is inversely proportional to the size of that group." Seems to be a trueism.

Also, Tears for Fears kinda said it all wrt gun control (amongst other things) with their "Everybody wants to rule the world. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMjzxHzZnnI)" And guns provide that feeling to a certain faction of the population, right?

Gun control is a very attractive goal for some -- but, IMHO, it won't stop this kind of shit. Any determined sicko will find weapons and ammo -- they're pretty damned motivated. And there's plenty of black market outlets. Sure, it's easier with legal sales, but gun control seems as if it would only delay such actions while the perp is finding a source of weapons.

The pity is that a possible way to reduce these incidents seems to be un-American. That way, IMHO, is a concerted effort to get rid of the testosterone-laden "I'm a bad MF" attitude that is so very, very prevalent. Don't like someone because they're "different" or perceived as a "threat", just be a bad dude and go shoot 'em up -- they're scum anyway. Or even if they're "on your lawn". But to eschew that attitude is seen as "weak", and we gotta be STRONG, y'know...

[KC2UGV]

You fight lame talking points with lame talking points? Two lames dont make it entertaining?

Saves me time. I've pre-canned replies to the Pro-gun-above-all-other-things side's talking points. Much as I pre-can my replies to the Limbaugh talking points by around 2:30PM or so.

[KB3LAZ]

Saves me time. I've pre-canned replies to the Pro-gun-above-all-other-things side's talking points. Much as I pre-can my replies to the Limbaugh talking points by around 2:30PM or so.

So, a mirrored image. Interesting. Remember something with a mirror. Both the person in the reflection and the one looking into the mirror are one in the same.

[K7SGJ]

"Meaningful conversation" doesn't entail one party going to the extreme of promoting guns above any other issue. Yes, when you repeat lame talking points about how being pro-gun is "patriotic" or other such cruft, I'll just repeat my replies to that.

If you have some other point, such as how to address violence like this, I'm open to it. And, again, no,.


I was pretty much done with this thread, but I feel it my civic duty to respond to your inane bullshit.



"More guns" is not a solution, anymore than "More gas" is the solution to a house fire".

The only one you use more often is your Somalia bullshit. And it's all bullshit, not even original thinking any more. You may be more successful trying to bully your position onto others with some fresh bullshit.


"Yes, when you repeat lame talking points about how being pro-gun is "patriotic" or other such cruft, I'll just repeat my replies to that".

There you go putting YOUR words in my MOUTH again. I have never said that, or intimated that I felt that way. However, you are most proficient with that tactic. Wake up, it's not as diversionary as you may think. It's unsanitary, too.


If you have some other point, such as how to address violence like this, I'm open to it.

I've got to call you on this one, too. You've demonstrated with your constant and repetitive, argumentative, one sided posts, not to mention your browbeating of others, that your not open to anyone's ideas or opinions that conflict with you own. You like to argue for the sake of arguing. Sometimes I wonder if you really believe some of the bullshit you post. Nice try, though.


"Meaningful conversation" doesn't entail one party going to the extreme of promoting guns above any other issue".

More bullshit, putting your words in my mouth. Statements that I never made, opinions I never had, and feelings I have never felt. It's sad you feel this tactic works so well for you. BTW it doesn't work for for the majority of people on here, and you've been called on it many times before by others. This may be hard to accept, but most everyone knows bullshit when the see it or step in it. But just the same, thanks for trying to tell me how I feel.

[K7SGJ]

Saves me time. I've pre-canned replies to the Pro-gun-above-all-other-things side's talking points. Much as I pre-can my replies to the Limbaugh talking points by around 2:30PM or so.

It's also a great way to avoid any fresh and creative thinking that might lead to a creative solution to a dilemma. Someone once said if you keep repeating the same bullshit, sooner or later you will believe it as truth. (paraphrasing, of course).

[KC2UGV]

I was pretty much done with this thread, but I feel it my civic duty to respond to your inane bullshit.


"Inane"... Yeah, ok.



"More guns" is not a solution, anymore than "More gas" is the solution to a house fire".

The only one you use more often is your Somalia bullshit. And it's all bullshit, not even original thinking any more. You may be more successful trying to bully your position onto others with some fresh bullshit.


Yep, Somalia is a perfect example of right wing-nut ideologies, and where everyone gets to take the law into their own hands, and carry any and all guns they want.

I use it to point out the fact, that:

* "More guns" is not a solution. Look at Somalia, they have lots of guns.
* "Less regulation" is not a solution. Look at Somalia, there's no regulation.



"Yes, when you repeat lame talking points about how being pro-gun is "patriotic" or other such cruft, I'll just repeat my replies to that".

There you go putting YOUR words in my MOUTH again. I have never said that, or intimated that I felt that way. However, you are most proficient with that tactic. Wake up, it's not as diversionary as you may think. It's unsanitary, too.


You started replying, quoting where I stated that "Being pro-gun at all costs is pro-violence", to which you concurred. So, what are you arguing then?



If you have some other point, such as how to address violence like this, I'm open to it.

I've got to call you on this one, too. You've demonstrated with your constant and repetitive, argumentative, one sided posts, not to mention your browbeating of others, that your not open to anyone's ideas or opinions that conflict with you own. You like to argue for the sake of arguing. Sometimes I wonder if you really believe some of the bullshit you post. Nice try, though.


I'm not open to idiotic solutions, like the "If there were only more guns there, this would never have happened", or "The problem is too much regulation on guns". I am open to solutions, such as:

* Mandated re-certification.
* Mandated militia membership for gun owners.
* Mandated gun club membership for gun owners.
* Opening up civil suits (Once again) against those pushing this problem onto our streets.

You know? Common sense solutions.



"Meaningful conversation" doesn't entail one party going to the extreme of promoting guns above any other issue".

More bullshit, putting your words in my mouth. Statements that I never made, opinions I never had, and feelings I have never felt. It's sad you feel this tactic works so well for you. BTW it doesn't work for for the majority of people on here, and you've been called on it many times before by others. This may be hard to accept, but most everyone knows bullshit when the see it or step in it. But just the same, thanks for trying to tell me how I feel.

So, what are you trying to say? Because, as I said, you quoted in your first reply my statement saying "Being pro-gun above all else is pro-violence", and voiced disagreement.


It's also a great way to avoid any fresh and creative thinking that might lead to a creative solution to a dilemma. Someone once said if you keep repeating the same bullshit, sooner or later you will believe it as truth. (paraphrasing, of course).

No, it's a way to save me time, when countering idiocy. I do the "fresh thinking" once, and I've already got the reply needed to repetitive nonsense. No need to reinvent the wheel each, and every time.

[KC2UGV]

So, a mirrored image. Interesting. Remember something with a mirror. Both the person in the reflection and the one looking into the mirror are one in the same.

Quite possibly, seeing as I've given up trying to be reasonable with unreasonable people.

[kf0rt]

No, it's a way to save me time, when countering idiocy. I do the "fresh thinking" once, and I've already got the reply needed to repetitive nonsense. No need to reinvent the wheel each, and every time.

You should try silence a lot more often. Srsly.

[ad4mg]

You should try silence a lot more often. Srsly.

He'd rather alienate everyone here who disagrees with him. It's working very well.

[KC2UGV]

He'd rather alienate everyone here who disagrees with him. It's working very well.

I really don't give a shit. Honestly.

If you think having your precious lump of metal in your hand is more important than 7 people dying, and before that 12; at the rate of over 10,000 per year; then you would be a sociopath.

Now, if you want to put away your irrational emotional attachment to that lump of metal, and come to the table to discuss a reasonable way of preventing future tragedies like this, let's talk. In the last thread, more than a few good ideas came out of it. People didn't like my idea, which is put financial penalties onto the gun pushers; who will then figure out the best way to reduce their risk. The pro-gun-above-all-else folk called that "Banning guns". There were other good ideas (By others), like annual (semi-annual, whatever) re-certifications. The pro-gun-above-all-else folk called that "Banning guns" as well.

So, if you've got an idea, I'm all ears. But, as I've already said, "More guns" isn't an answer.

[K7SGJ]

"Inane"... Yeah, ok.



Yep, Somalia is a perfect example of right wing-nut ideologies, and where everyone gets to take the law into their own hands, and carry any and all guns they want.

I use it to point out the fact, that:

* "More guns" is not a solution. Look at Somalia, they have lots of guns.
* "Less regulation" is not a solution. Look at Somalia, there's no regulation.



You started replying, quoting where I stated that "Being pro-gun at all costs is pro-violence", to which you concurred. So, what are you arguing then?



I'm not open to idiotic solutions, like the "If there were only more guns there, this would never have happened", or "The problem is too much regulation on guns". I am open to solutions, such as:

* Mandated re-certification.
* Mandated militia membership for gun owners.
* Mandated gun club membership for gun owners.
* Opening up civil suits (Once again) against those pushing this problem onto our streets.

You know? Common sense solutions.



So, what are you trying to say? Because, as I said, you quoted in your first reply my statement saying "Being pro-gun above all else is pro-violence", and voiced disagreement.



No, it's a way to save me time, when countering idiocy. I do the "fresh thinking" once, and I've already got the reply needed to repetitive nonsense. No need to reinvent the wheel each, and every time.


Unfuckingbelievable. Your memory sucks. Let me re-post my reply and try to explain it to you, since comprehension is obviously not your strong suit.

"If one were to stop and examine this stoopid statement, it would be quite obvious it's a troll. "At any and all costs WOULD INCLUDE VIOLENCE. Just as anti-gun at any and all costs IS pro-violence. But then, I would expect no less from you on any discussion involving a firearm of any kind.

I don't agree, condone, or do anything here, other than call bullshit on your post. To illustrate how stoopid it is, I took it one step further to try to show you that if the same statement was made by the Anti-Gun crowd, it would be just as stoopid and meaningless. Let me try to simplify this for. Anyone on behalf of any cause, that makes the statement that X (x being any cause, even one of the Dalai Lamas, who is probably the most passive and gentle man I can think of) at any and all cost is pro-violence. See how stoopid that is. Further, a cause, any cause, that is achievable by any and all costs would include non-violence, violence, and everything in between, hence it means nothing. See the bullshittedness of a statement like that. But it was a clever attempt at diversion, and a great way to troll without looking like a troll.

Geeze. You will have to do a lot better than that".

[KB3LAZ]

There is a difference between being a sociopath and having sociopath like tendencies. Most people can relate at one time or another on at least a single topic.

[kf0rt]

I really don't give a shit. Honestly.


You won't mind a month or two on the mainland, then?

[ad4mg]

I really don't give a shit. Honestly.

If you think having your precious lump of metal in your hand is more important than 7 people dying, and before that 12; at the rate of over 10,000 per year; then you would be a sociopath.

Now, if you want to put away your irrational emotional attachment to that lump of metal, and come to the table to discuss a reasonable way of preventing future tragedies like this, let's talk. In the last thread, more than a few good ideas came out of it. People didn't like my idea, which is put financial penalties onto the gun pushers; who will then figure out the best way to reduce their risk. The pro-gun-above-all-else folk called that "Banning guns". There were other good ideas (By others), like annual (semi-annual, whatever) re-certifications. The pro-gun-above-all-else folk called that "Banning guns" as well.

So, if you've got an idea, I'm all ears. But, as I've already said, "More guns" isn't an answer.

Nobody wants to argue with you, Scooter. Eddie speaks for me, no need arguing with someone as stupid and arrogant as you are.

Did you wanna go piss up a rope or something?

[KC2UGV]

You won't mind a month or two on the mainland, then?

You know what? Fine.

[ad4mg]

Wazzat a self-banning I just heard? :lol:

Piss everybody off, and then get mad when nobody gives you a cookie. Priceless!

[K7SGJ]

I really don't give a shit. Honestly.If you think having your precious lump of metal in your hand is more important than 7 people dying, and before that 12; at the rate of over 10,000 per year; then you would be a sociopath.



Now, if you want to put away your irrational emotional attachment to that lump of metal, and come to the table to discuss a reasonable way of preventing future tragedies like this, let's talk. In the last thread, more than a few good ideas came out of it. People didn't like my idea, which is put financial penalties onto the gun pushers; who will then figure out the best way to reduce their risk. The pro-gun-above-all-else folk called that "Banning guns". There were other good ideas (By others), like annual (semi-annual, whatever) re-certifications. The pro-gun-above-all-else folk called that "Banning guns" as well.

So, if you've got an idea, I'm all ears. But, as I've already said, "More guns" isn't an answer.


Jesus man, show me where anybody said or intimated that "If you think having your precious lump of metal in your hand is more important than 7 people dying, and before that 12; at the rate of over 10,000 per year; then you would be a sociopath".

No one said anything remotely like they thought their lump of metal was more important than 19 people losing their life. I call bullshit on this, as just trolling and trying to divert and muddy a conversation with a bullshit statement like this. Which, is also another, one of many, recycled post of yours. All you seem to be capable of is regurgitating the same cliches' and pissing people off with the same old non arguments. But I admit, you are very good at what it is you do; and we all aware of where you stand on the subject. Painfully aware. Unless you can come up with something original and compelling to support you position, try one of the other threads, like the "pun" one. It might help you loosen up and relax that sphincter a bit.

[KJ3N]

You won't mind a month or two on the mainland, then?

Shades of QRZ. How disappointing....

How about trying the Ignore feature instead?

[kf0rt]

Shades of QRZ. How disappointing....

How about trying the Ignore feature instead?

:roll:

[N8YX]

First, I ignored the atheists, as I am Christian...

[KB3LAZ]

And then I farted?

[ad4mg]

Shades of QRZ. How disappointing....

How about trying the Ignore feature instead?

Oh, I think not. We heard no such grumbling when we disposed of RWN trolls around here. The favorite target on the QRZ staff comes to mind. His methodology was nearly identical. No rules broken, but would post anything to stir the shit. We relieved ourselves of him as a general nuisance. Liberals applauded.

This entire discussion of guns is getting out of hand. People become so fucking child-like, and cannot even have a discussion, it's a dick wagging contest. An endless dick wagging contest. This endless trolling was ignored by the staff, well, except me, I'm the resident asshole, until it became a situation where the comments of others were twisted in a slanderous manner and used against them. Form your own argument, don't take someone else's comments and distort them to a different meaning. And to do it over and over and over and over again, and something's going to give. Jerry (X-Rated) did that shit to me and got a GD ear full. Paul (one of our own, mind you), did that shit to me and got a GD ear full.

When Rob speaks up, there is a legitimate problem. He is the one member of the staff least likely to even think about taking any sort of action. The rest of us have been grumbling about this bullshit for quite a while.

No, not shades of QRZ. Nothing was done, Corey failed to get his cookie and left of his own accord. Interesting that two members from another forum chime in with exactly the same tactic at exactly the same time in threads with exactly the same basic topic of discussion.

I tell you, criticize all you want, but try to muster some hint of honesty when you do. I think we're pretty damned tolerant. If you think we're anything like QRZ, then you're in a different reality than I am.

[N8YX]

If you think we're anything like QRZ, then you're in a different reality than I am.

I'll absolutely guarantee that 99% of what goes on here would result in locks, bans or both there.

[WX7P]

I'll absolutely guarantee that 99% of what goes on here would result in locks, bans or both there.

I agree. Even if there is no rule violation, over there, they'll invent one if you offend some mods politics or wrangle a sacred cow...

[KJ3N]

I'll absolutely guarantee that 99% of what goes on here would result in locks, bans or both there.

Which is why Rob's comment kind of caught me off guard.

[kf0rt]

Odd that nobody took my question as being rhetorical in a thread full of rhetoric. That alone speaks volumes.

"Fresh thinking?" Haven't seen any in this debate, but I must admit that what I hate most about these gun debates (abortion debates, too) is what I might call absolutist projection. It comes in forms like "If you think having your precious lump of metal in your hand is more important than 7 people dying, and before that 12; at the rate of over 10,000 per year; then you would be a sociopath." Or my all-time favorite: "Guns are only for killing people." Note the lack of middle ground. This attempts to dissolve an incredibly complex issue down to simple black and white. It attempts to force the middle 90% hard to one side or another and I reject that completely.

My god, if you still want to own guns after this, you must be some sort of MONSTER! Of course, this isn't what Corey is saying, but you don't have to read very far between the lines. We could do this all day, and for years. Been there, seen it done! Defend guns at all, and you have an "irrational emotional attachment to that lump of metal."

More than that, though, I think I know where Corey stands. That's fine, I just get tired of reading it over and over and over again. It ain't his position as much as his delivery. If you don't know Corey's position on this, raise your hand. (I thought so!)

Oh, and sorry, Jim. Respect you a lot, but I don't do "ignore." Never have, never will; not here, not anywhere. I learn a lot by reading people I disagree with, and it does shift my own position from time to time.

[N8YX]

Albi had the proper sense of perspective on many matters, including this one.

[KB3LAZ]

Odd that nobody took my question as being rhetorical in a thread full of rhetoric. That alone speaks volumes.

"Fresh thinking?" Haven't seen any in this debate, but I must admit that what I hate most about these gun debates (abortion debates, too) is what I might call absolutist projection. It comes in forms like "If you think having your precious lump of metal in your hand is more important than 7 people dying, and before that 12; at the rate of over 10,000 per year; then you would be a sociopath." Or my all-time favorite: "Guns are only for killing people." Note the lack of middle ground. This attempts to dissolve an incredibly complex issue down to simple black and white. It attempts to force the middle 90% hard to one side or another and I reject that completely.

My god, if you still want to own guns after this, you must be some sort of MONSTER! Of course, this isn't what Corey is saying, but you don't have to read very far between the lines. We could do this all day, and for years. Been there, seen it done! Defend guns at all, and you have an "irrational emotional attachment to that lump of metal."

More than that, though, I think I know where Corey stands. That's fine, I just get tired of reading it over and over and over again. It ain't his position as much as his delivery. If you don't know Corey's position on this, raise your hand. (I thought so!)

Oh, and sorry, Jim. Respect you a lot, but I don't do "ignore." Never have, never will; not here, not anywhere. I learn a lot by reading people I disagree with, and it does shift my own position from time to time.

+ (I dont have a proper number to add to this)

[WX7P]

Odd that nobody took my question as being rhetorical in a thread full of rhetoric. That alone speaks volumes.

"Fresh thinking?" Haven't seen any in this debate, but I must admit that what I hate most about these gun debates (abortion debates, too) is what I might call absolutist projection. It comes in forms like "If you think having your precious lump of metal in your hand is more important than 7 people dying, and before that 12; at the rate of over 10,000 per year; then you would be a sociopath." Or my all-time favorite: "Guns are only for killing people." Note the lack of middle ground. This attempts to dissolve an incredibly complex issue down to simple black and white. It attempts to force the middle 90% hard to one side or another and I reject that completely.



There doesn't appear to be any middle ground when you have a powerful lobbying organization basically pulling the same thing that you are accusing Corey of doing. That's why these discussions tend to be pointless. They stoke up fear amongst their more feeble minded members ("Obama's going to take away your GUNS!) which from my perspective is equivalent to the "lump of metal" argument. The gun takeaway thing is a pretty stupid and unrealistic argument, and would be against all traditions in this country. I sometimes think the NRA is nothing but a recruiting tool for Republican candidates with all the fear mongering they do and some of the wild ass stuff Wayne LaPierre has to say. Having said that, I in no way am saying if you're a member of the NRA, you're a kook.

While not directly analogous, I'd like to see some compromise along the lines of environmentalists and hunting groups in places like Tulelake. While not natural allies by any stretch of the imagination they've managed to strike bargains with each other that allow hunters to do their thing and the enviros get to do their bird watching. It works quite well because both sides managed to silence their hardliners and reach a compromise.

[N8YX]

The gun takeaway thing is a pretty stupid and unrealistic argument, and would be against all traditions in this country.
The horse has left the barn, so to say...or the ship sailed long ago.

I present the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_Copy

Bear in mind that these folks are manufacturing complete firearms from whatever they can scrounge. They don't have to last for years; just long enough to accomplish some nefarious purpose.

Anyone with access to a well-equipped machine shop - especially one with CNC milling/turning and heat-treating equipment - can turn out workable firearms all day long. Ask the CB radio crowd how well the grey and black-market transceiver/amplifier embargoes have affected their freebanding and skip-shooting operations.

Plus...a homemade weapon's ballistic fingerprints simply don't exist, a proof round having never been fired and its data captured. Thus, unless the shooter is placed directly at the crime scene, wide scale adoption and usage of homebrew firearms is going to markedly increase the number of unsolved homicides.

It's almost like exchanging one devil for another. Unless we as a society can figure out how to remove the desire for people to harm each other, they're always going to invent new and improved ways to do it.


I sometimes think the NRA is nothing but a recruiting tool for Republican candidates with all the fear mongering they do and some of the wild ass stuff Wayne LaPierre has to say.
I sometimes think you are correct. Follow the money, and "keep up the skeer" amongst the faithful. That's not saying the organization doesn't get a few things right, however...the valid actions just seem lost in the din at times.


Having said that, I in no way am saying if you're a member of the NRA, you're a kook.
You have to be a member of such to participate in many competitions, including their sanctioned matches. I don't agree with everything which emanates from the organization - and think Alan Gura's outfit might offer better legal representation, but for the time being the NRA is it.


While not directly analogous, I'd like to see some compromise along the lines of environmentalists and hunting groups in places like Tulelake. While not natural allies by any stretch of the imagination they've managed to strike bargains with each other that allow hunters to do their thing and the enviros get to do their bird watching. It works quite well because both sides managed to silence their hardliners and reach a compromise.
A large percentage of hunting license fees, duck stamps and whatnot actually goes to conservation efforts - which offer collateral benefits for other wildlife. It is a win-win for all involved, as a number of species which were on the brink have been brought back as a result of those efforts.

[KB3LAZ]

There doesn't appear to be any middle ground when you have a powerful lobbying organization basically pulling the same thing that you are accusing Corey of doing.

It isnt the tactic that pisses me off. It is the fact that he bitches at others for using the same tactic. The same shit that everyone always bitched at Rayn for. The simple fact of the mater is that one person using it is not better than another. In fact the person that uses said tactic and then shits on others for it is worse because of the blatant hypocrisy. That is and always will be my only problem with the situation as I have stated numerous times.

As for middle ground. There are people on both sides of the isle that have openly stated that they are not interested on a middle ground when it comes to a few set issues. Arguing with them is simply pointless.

[WX7P]

It isnt the tactic that pisses me off. It is the fact that he bitches at others for using the same tactic. The same shit that everyone always bitched at Rayn for. The simple fact of the mater is that one person using it is not better than another. In fact the person that uses said tactic and then shits on others for it is worse because of the blatant hypocrisy. That is and always will be my only problem with the situation as I have stated numerous times.

As for middle ground. There are people on both sides of the isle that have openly stated that they are not interested on a middle ground when it comes to a few set issues. Arguing with them is simply pointless.

I see what you're saying, but Ryan is a special case.

I don't believe a word that guy says. I don't think Corey is at that level.

[KB3LAZ]

I see what you're saying, but Ryan is a special case.

I don't believe a word that guy says. I don't think Corey is at that level.

Then on this we disagree.

[kf0rt]

There doesn't appear to be any middle ground when you have a powerful lobbying organization basically pulling the same thing that you are accusing Corey of doing. That's why these discussions tend to be pointless. They stoke up fear amongst their more feeble minded members ("Obama's going to take away your GUNS!) which from my perspective is equivalent to the "lump of metal" argument. The gun takeaway thing is a pretty stupid and unrealistic argument, and would be against all traditions in this country. I sometimes think the NRA is nothing but a recruiting tool for Republican candidates with all the fear mongering they do and some of the wild ass stuff Wayne LaPierre has to say. Having said that, I in no way am saying if you're a member of the NRA, you're a kook.

While not directly analogous, I'd like to see some compromise along the lines of environmentalists and hunting groups in places like Tulelake. While not natural allies by any stretch of the imagination they've managed to strike bargains with each other that allow hunters to do their thing and the enviros get to do their bird watching. It works quite well because both sides managed to silence their hardliners and reach a compromise.

Well said, Janet, and I largely agree.

The older I get, the more philosophical I become and the less I have a dog in ANY race. And the more I realize that the feeble minded exist on both extremes of any spectrum. It's that bell curve thing I mentioned before. 7 Billion people on this planet and we're supposed to agree on anything? Ain't gonna happen. Compromise really is the only solution these days, because sure as hell, none of us are getting exactly what we want.

I don't even want to talk guns any more; would rather take a big step back and examine the philosophy and psychology that led us to this point. This is NOT the America I grew up in back in the 60's, but surely, the seeds were sewn back then and even before. The gun issue is one symptom but is not the disease. The disease is that we think it's some sort of birthright to make everyone think just like you do or I do and fuck you if you don't. And we do this all-the-while we create little cliques to support our neurosis instead of understanding that we have a bit of a mission here to live together. A pissed-off life is no life at all and if I could trade all my guns to change that, I'd be first in line. But, that's what we've become.

Kind of an aside... Too lazy to look it up, but Kelli recently made a comment about how you can't choose whether you're gay or not, but how you react to it is completely within your choice. (Paraphrasing, and Kelli is welcome to correct me if I didn't understand this correctly). Oddly, I couldn't disagree more. I believe her comment was related to Mike's (IEI) "queer" comments. I would submit that Mike has no more control over his thoughts about "queers" than Kelli has about her own sexuality. These are strong cultural differences, but they are cultural differences. Spend a few decades believing something; it's damn hard to do an about-face. It becomes hard-wired.

This is what we're up against. We've spent decades now being taught that we can have anything we want as individuals and are now reaping the "rewards" of not simply taking care of each other and putting our humanity first. It ain't about the guns. What we've lost is compassion and respect in a society that has become too big to manage.

My take, anyway, and I admit to being a hypocrite. Who isn't?

Hugs, and a round on the house, eh?

[K7SGJ]

^^^^^THIS, and make mine a double, and keep your thumb otta the glass.

[KJ3N]

Oh, and sorry, Jim. Respect you a lot, .....

I'm not sure how to react to that. I'm a little stunned. You're going to damage my reputation as a complete asshole, if you keep that up. ;)


...but I don't do "ignore." Never have, never will; not here, not anywhere. I learn a lot by reading people I disagree with, and it does shift my own position from time to time.

I guess there's something to that, but I've read very little from certain folks on my ignore list that would cause me much of a shift on a position. When all I see are the usual Rushbo, Hannity, and Faux Snooze talking points, with little original thought, I don't see the point of reading flung poo.

Obviously, YMMV.

[NA4BH]

Make it a triple.


This is what we're up against. We've spent decades now being taught that we can have anything we want as individuals and are now reaping the "rewards" of not simply taking care of each other and putting our humanity first. It ain't about the guns. What we've lost is compassion and respect in a society that has become too big to manage.


That is the major part of what's wrong in America. Nobody gives a shit about how their actions affect others. It's all about "ME" and fuck everything/everybody else.

[kf0rt]

I'm not sure how to react to that. I'm a little stunned. You're going to damaged my reputation as a complete asshole, if you keep that up. ;)


Oh, fuck that.

We assholes need to stick together. ;)

[K7SGJ]

Ewwwwwww. Sticky assholes.

[KJ3N]

Oh, fuck that.

We assholes need to stick together. ;)

:rofl:

[PA5COR]

A few observations from my side of the pond, so i can be off for a mile or more.

Most of our societies have individualised over the last 4 or 5 decades, and the political directions people chose have become much more drifting apart, up to the extreme sometimes.
Helped by talkshow hosts, NRA ( i read the guns and Ammo) for the last 35 years or so, as well a few other USA based publications, all these have been taking in a much more extreme position over the decades, pulling the people apart from the what then was the normal middle stance where compromise was possible.

We see the same here where the PVV from Geert Wilders is the "Tea party" of the Dutch, our former communist and left wing party's drifted to the middle or just fell out of existence.

I always voted middle of the road/right wing here, and make no mistake, that would be considered now in the USA serious left wing.....that shows how far the political life in the USA drifted over the time to the ( ultra) right.

Your gun problem ( there it is again, please hear me on and don't cringe) is not so much the availability of guns, which we have here as well, it is the underlying change in people's extremist going political stance and the hate mongering politicians and talkshow hosts feeding on people's fear.
Our healthcare system available for all and good psychotherapeutic help, combined with a gun law and registration keeps arms out of hands from people that have psychiatric problems, or is supposed to do so.

I think everyone that has a good reason to own arms should be able to do so, for hunting, sport shooting etc.
Nobody feels the need here nor is it legally possible to carry firearms in a ccw permit, nor is there a need for, crime here cannot be compared to the USA certainly not violent crime.

Even when we are one of the most densely populated area's in the world where conflicts theoretically should flare up more easy as in less densely populated area's.
People here are more trained to try to speak out their problems or get mediation from the council or police before violence erupts.
Might be also a streak in our population that has people from 150+ different ethnic backgrounds and walk of life.
I've been reading up on BBS boards and internet fora since the 2400 baud modem was the dogs dangle to have, most my interests were worldwide fora to get my knowledge broadened, and having lots of family in Canada and the USA and Australia you tend to look deeper in the country's and people what makes them tick.

Why I'm here on the Democratic side? because they are the closest thing to my middle of the road/right wing political side here, i hate politicians lying and cheating on the electorate, and both your party's are guilty on that, but the right wing/tea party kicks that 10 notches further.
The hate spewing of Pamela Geller had direct influence on the Anders Breivik case here, http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/08/01/284011/pam-geller-race-mixing-breivik-right/ and as was written down in his manifesto.

This devision between political sides and the extremist sides taken is the root cause that the people are pushed against each other and mentally weak people do as told and grab weapons and start killing off other people because they are told to do so by the likes of Geller, Glenn Beck, Rushbo, etc., fill in the blanks..

Sorry for rambling on, and shoot holes in my arguments so i can learn from that please, I'm sure i missed a few arguments and as human i will have erred here.

[ki4itv]

...
Kind of an aside... Too lazy to look it up, but Kelli recently made a comment about how you can't choose whether you're gay or not, but how you react to it is completely within your choice. (Paraphrasing, and Kelli is welcome to correct me if I didn't understand this correctly). Oddly, I couldn't disagree more. I believe her comment was related to Mike's (IEI) "queer" comments. I would submit that Mike has no more control over his thoughts about "queers" than Kelli has about her own sexuality. These are strong cultural differences, but they are cultural differences. Spend a few decades believing something; it's damn hard to do an about-face. It becomes hard-wired.
?

Spending time around real and responsible people who are not like you seems to solve that problem over a relatively short time period. Unfortunately, too many of us seem satisfied with forming opinions based on Hollywood stereotypes and bizarre news stories. I'd bet that people who feel like Mike think that the only people around them who are gay, are the ones they can identify themselves through their distorted and narrow world view.
Got news for them...

[KB3LAZ]

Well said, Janet, and I largely agree.

The older I get, the more philosophical I become and the less I have a dog in ANY race. And the more I realize that the feeble minded exist on both extremes of any spectrum. It's that bell curve thing I mentioned before. 7 Billion people on this planet and we're supposed to agree on anything? Ain't gonna happen. Compromise really is the only solution these days, because sure as hell, none of us are getting exactly what we want.

I don't even want to talk guns any more; would rather take a big step back and examine the philosophy and psychology that led us to this point. This is NOT the America I grew up in back in the 60's, but surely, the seeds were sewn back then and even before. The gun issue is one symptom but is not the disease. The disease is that we think it's some sort of birthright to make everyone think just like you do or I do and fuck you if you don't. And we do this all-the-while we create little cliques to support our neurosis instead of understanding that we have a bit of a mission here to live together. A pissed-off life is no life at all and if I could trade all my guns to change that, I'd be first in line. But, that's what we've become.

Kind of an aside... Too lazy to look it up, but Kelli recently made a comment about how you can't choose whether you're gay or not, but how you react to it is completely within your choice. (Paraphrasing, and Kelli is welcome to correct me if I didn't understand this correctly). Oddly, I couldn't disagree more. I believe her comment was related to Mike's (IEI) "queer" comments. I would submit that Mike has no more control over his thoughts about "queers" than Kelli has about her own sexuality. These are strong cultural differences, but they are cultural differences. Spend a few decades believing something; it's damn hard to do an about-face. It becomes hard-wired.

This is what we're up against. We've spent decades now being taught that we can have anything we want as individuals and are now reaping the "rewards" of not simply taking care of each other and putting our humanity first. It ain't about the guns. What we've lost is compassion and respect in a society that has become too big to manage.

My take, anyway, and I admit to being a hypocrite. Who isn't?

Hugs, and a round on the house, eh?

This is one of the few times where I only partially agree with you. I agree tha everyone hosts a little hypocrisy (how much really is key) and that unlearning a way of thinking is hard but I do not believe that some feelings are hard-wired. I also do not believe that people have to follow their parental backing or bad cultural influences. Those that follow blindly without question are of a weak mind. (Not that you said this) But I also do not feel that people are bound by genetics either. I have stated this many times. My family is quite diverse in the younger generations but a lot of the older generation is the same. They are very backwoods, host some racism even if they dont realize it, are sexist or rather chauvinistic, many are addicts, drugs, alcohol, drama, many are violent, and they do not bend on anything. You will notice quite a difference in the younger generation. No addicts, no racism, etc. In fact most in the family have married into a race not of their own. Some are gay. Etc.

Now, what does this mean about the older generation in the family? They have two choices, adapt or ostracize themselves from their kids, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, etc. Guess what they adapted and rather quickly. I assure you it is not a front either.

Now, I do believe that some people are more susceptible to different things but this is on an individual basis and based on their brain rather than their genetic makeup. Do genetic makeup, nurture, culture, etc have influences on the way we turn out, you are damn straight they do but in the end we are in charge of ourselves and our own actions.

I think I have made this clear in the past but I feel very strongly about this and I look at excuses like "my genetics made me do it" "my cultural background made me do it" "I had bad parents and that is why I..." etc as absolute BS. Anyway, /myrandombs.

[HUGH]

More circumspection needed in every evaluation of another's ideas.

[W1GUH]

Circumcision, without anesthetic, could be pretty effective, also.