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View Full Version : New F22 Raptor lost advantage to Typhoon Eurofighter



PA5COR
08-03-2012, 11:43 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/

The United States has spent nearly $80 billion to develop the most advanced stealth fighter jet in history, the F-22 Raptor, but the Air Force recently found out firsthand that while the planes own the skies at modern long-range air combat, it is “evenly matched” with cheaper, foreign jets when it comes to old-school dogfighting.

The F22 Raptor already has mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problem (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-22-raptor-flyers-family-demands-truth-air/story?id=16253815)s with the planes — problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/air-force-confident-22-raptor-fighter-problem-solved/story?id=16845990#.UBaul2FQ6Ag).

In some missions missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation – close-range, one-on-one combat – the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.


“We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn’t,” German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly (http://www.combataircraft.net/). “We were evenly matched. They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”

Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dogfighting, “in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects.”

In response to the report, a spokesperson for the Air Force, Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, told ABC News that one-on-one combat is only one way to evaluate an aircraft’s capabilities and said it’s not “necessarily the most relevant to every scenario.”


The F-22 is the single most expensive fighter jet in history at a total acquisition cost of an estimated $79 billion (http://www.gao.gov/assets/590/589695.pdf) for 187 planes, meaning each plane costs approximately $420 million. Estimates for the Eurofighter Typhoon – the premier fighter for several allied countries including the U.K., Germany and Italy – put that plane at just under $200 million each, according to an April 2011 report by England’s Public Accounts Committee (http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/public-accounts-committee/news/mod-typhoon/).

N8YX
08-03-2012, 11:47 AM
Here's a nice, borrowed euphemism for you: "Clubbing baby seals".

That is the role the F22 excels at. See the AWACS plane with the funny looking saucer on top? It localized your Eurofighter minutes ago, and several passively-guided AMRAAMs launched by said F22 are on their way to say "hi".

W5GA
08-03-2012, 11:56 AM
Here's a nice, borrowed euphemism for you: "Clubbing baby seals".

That is the role the F22 excels at. See the AWACS plane with the funny looking saucer on top? It localized your Eurofighter minutes ago, and several passively-guided AMRAAMs launched by said F22 are on their way to say "hi".
No different than the Seawolf class submarine, only the Navy was smart enough to figure out that fighting the last war wasn't the way to go, and came up with a cheaper replacement for the 688's. Seems that the Airforce hasn't gotten the memo yet. But I'm sure some crittur will keep the Airforce buying these for a long time to come.

N8YX
08-03-2012, 12:09 PM
I don't think so - seems to me the tooling was destroyed after this particular run.

The Raptor was meant as a continental (U.S.-based) interceptor, much as the MIG-25 Foxbat was commissioned for. But why send a squadron of manned planes to deliver a tactical weapon when cruise or ballistic missiles will do? Put enough Patriot batteries around sensitive installations and you've lessened the chance of shenanigans to the point that an F22 on CAP is a bit redundant.

PA5COR
08-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Me knows that most countries have the same capability, with AWACS and long range rockets, nothing new there.
The typhoon even uses the same weapon systems.
All for 1/2 the price as a F 22 Raptor.
The advantage of the Raptor when it was introduced was superior close combat capabilities, which now proved to be non existent in real life.


Here's a nice, borrowed euphemism for you: "Clubbing baby seals".

That is the role the F22 excels at. See the AWACS plane with the funny looking saucer on top? It localized your Eurofighter minutes ago, and several passively-guided AMRAAMs launched by said F22 are on their way to say "hi".

KB3LAZ
08-03-2012, 01:38 PM
Me knows that most countries have the same capability, with AWACS and long range rockets, nothing new there.
The typhoon even uses the same weapon systems.
All for 1/2 the price as a F 22 Raptor.
The advantage of the Raptor when it was introduced was superior close combat capabilities, which now proved to be non existent in real life.

So, something caught up? Sounds like one of those "what took you so long" deals to me.

N8YX
08-03-2012, 01:41 PM
The F22's primary selling point was stealth at distance; the other niceties (vectored thrust and whatnot) conspire to make the plane overly complex...perhaps even too complex to effectively field.

Of course, we're already looking for a replacement.

kb2vxa
08-03-2012, 01:59 PM
Better things for better living through German Engineering.

ab1ga
08-03-2012, 02:36 PM
The F22's primary selling point was stealth at distance; the other niceties (vectored thrust and whatnot) conspire to make the plane overly complex...perhaps even too complex to effectively field.

Of course, we're already looking for a replacement.

We had the replacement almost before we had the F-22; I think it's called the F-37 Joint Strike Fighter.

The F-22 was commissioned by the Air Force to close the "fighter gap", over strenous Pentagon objections, and in the end I think it cost at least one general his job. Not only was the plane expensive, but an Air Force buying F-22s isn't buying F-37s, which raises the unit cost of both planes. If the word "Joint" in the title refers not only to sharing among services, but sharing of development costs with allies, then you get friction among nations as well.

Wow, I thought I'd heard the last of the Fighter Gap fiasco, but the beast just won't die!

73,

K7SGJ
08-03-2012, 03:46 PM
We had the replacement almost before we had the F-22; I think it's called the F-37 Joint Strike Fighter.

The F-22 was commissioned by the Air Force to close the "fighter gap", over strenous Pentagon objections, and in the end I think it cost at least one general his job. Not only was the plane expensive, but an Air Force buying F-22s isn't buying F-37s, which raises the unit cost of both planes. If the word "Joint" in the title refers not only to sharing among services, but sharing of development costs with allies, then you get friction among nations as well.

Wow, I thought I'd heard the last of the Fighter Gap fiasco, but the beast just won't die!

73,

Perhaps if my definition of "joint" was shared by the DoD and the Pentagon, this kind of clusterfuk would not happen.

KG4NEL
08-05-2012, 07:03 PM
All for 1/2 the price as a F 22 Raptor.

EADS will figure out how the racket is played, soon enough - now that they have a presence over here :mrgreen:

N2NH
08-07-2012, 08:24 PM
Time to unpimp the F-22. These guys have some experience...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv157ZIInUk&feature=relmfu

WØTKX
08-08-2012, 09:53 AM
Oh, SNAP!

n2ize
08-09-2012, 12:13 AM
The F22 has advantages that are not for anyone here to know.

PA5COR
08-09-2012, 02:49 AM
Like the F35 that gets more pricy by the month?

K7SGJ
08-09-2012, 03:47 PM
Bah, wait till you see the new P-51 with the Merlin piston power plant. Now THAT'S a plane. F22 Raptor, indeed. Pish-Posh.

N2NH
08-10-2012, 12:05 AM
Bah, wait till you see the new P-51 with the Merlin piston power plant. Now THAT'S a plane. F22 Raptor, indeed. Pish-Posh.

Just remember, those quirky Brits shot the Bismarck with the Fairey Swordfish, which was so obsolete, the Bismarck's analog targeting computers couldn't touch it. Bring back the F-104 :yes: