Mass casualties in Denver (Aurora) area

[N8YX]

Just got wind of this via another board - multiple bombs in and around a theatre.

Media reporting it as a shooting. Folks on the ground state it was a bomb blast; at least 10 killed as of this posting.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/278707/71/Shooting-in-Aurora-

Dave, Jeff, Rob - you guys and families okay?

[N8YX]

Scanner feed for those interested:

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?feedId=43

[rot]

Shit!...I'm seeing like "12 dead" stufff...
Hope it ain't so...

[PA5COR]

Was on the news here also during the showing of the latest batman movie someone shot around himself indiscriminately killing at least 10 people...
'What sick *sshole would do that???

[N8YX]

Latest reports from the other site I'm perusing say smoke or tear gas bombs used as diversion; multiple shooters involved; "secondary" devices suspected in one car with TN plates. One BG in custody.

ETA:


'What sick *sshole would do that???
Someone looking to make a statement, a la Columbine.

[rot]

14 dead...50 injured ???
One person in custody...
Effin ER nightmare...
rot

[N8YX]

Single shooter - 14 dead; 50 wounded as of this posting.

ETA:

Ya beat me to it, rot - and it is indeed a nightmare scenario.

[N7YA]

Shit is getting out of hand and I sincerely hope this doesnt decend into a gun thread.

I feel for those folks...it could be anyone's children, mother, husband or wife, they didnt deserve this. That rotten motherfucker is in custody, he needs to be beaten until dead...i really try to abstain from wishing that shit on people, but hes not people, hes a broken unit that should be destroyed. Beat that motherfucker til he stops moving. Hell, ILL do it, wont feel bad about it either.

[N8YX]

Shit is getting out of hand and I sincerely hope this doesnt decend into a gun thread.
Exactly.

Ban small arms altogether and the next time one of these are carried out it'll be with something creative...gasoline in the sprinkler system or a stolen canister or two of VX lobbed into the crowd.

What's needed is to eliminate the reason to kill, not the method. There's always a tool at hand for the job, even if it has to be improvised.

[rot]

Single shooter - 14 dead; 50 wounded as of this posting.

ETA:

Ya beat me to it, rot - and it is indeed a nightmare scenario.

Man..I've been wide mofo awake since ca 3a and I saw your post...connected to the world and all knid of reports came blasting thru.
Sort of hoping it was bs...no luck.. I hate seeing this shit go down...
Peace.
rot

[ki4itv]

Whoa.

[PA5COR]

My thoughts go out to the victims and family of them.
I'm not speculating now, wait for facts before we start guessing please...
Our first thoughts should be for the hurt and killed people and their families....

[W4GPL]

Damn... I'm not in town, but I just got woken up by my sister telling me about this. :-| Fucked up.

[N7YA]

They have quite a few facts now. My first thoughts, as always, are with the families. My next thoughts are anger. But i will refrain as its not my place, nor is it healthy.

[kf0rt]

Jesus. Heard about this driving in to work today.

I grew up about a mile from the Aurora Mall; before it was even there, really, and as malls go, this one is old (my Dad and sister still live in that house). No worries about family as "midnight showings of Batman" simply isn't part of our vocabulary.

Local news is now reporting 12 dead and about 50 injured; suspect in custody and they're securing his apartment. 24 year old?

[PA5COR]

According to our news the suspect is the 24 year old James Holmes.
He was caught near a car on the parking space near the center.
FBI stated no reasons to suspect or treat it as a terrorist attack.
12 people killed and dozens wounded, including 2 critically wounded.

The arrested man told the FBI he had explosives in his house, The police are investigating that and look for explosives in the area this all happened.

[KK4AMI]

Unbelievable, ABC is reporting that James Holmes is a member of the Tea Party. How the fusk do they know that already and why does politics always have to be tied to every tragedy?

[W4GPL]

Unbelievable, ABC is reporting that James Holmes is a member of the Tea Party. How the fusk do they know that already and why does politics always have to be tied to every tragedy?Because of all the dangerous rhetoric your 'party' spews? And it's called Facebook.. people tend to have bios online nowadays, especially deranged madmen.

http://www.9news.com/video/9newsonline.aspx -- local news stream

[wa6mhz]

Now we will hear a kneejerk call for banning of all guns. But that won't solve the problem. we need to ban WHACKOS and NUTS who do this kind of thing!

The news is going crazy today. Radio and TV have the world glued to the dial. Everyone wants more and more info. More interviews, more speculation from talking heads. Everyone wants to know "WHY!!!!????"

The answer is so simple. It was NOT because of guns, it was because the PERP IS NUTS!!!! A F'ing PSYCHOPATH!

and it is so ironic that this is just what so many movies are about: Whackos who go on killing sprees!

[K7SGJ]

Very sad event.

[W4GPL]

Now we will hear a kneejerk call for banning of all guns. But that won't solve the problem. we need to ban WHACKOS and NUTS who do this kind of thing!

The news is going crazy today. Radio and TV have the world glued to the dial. Everyone wants more and more info. More interviews, more speculation from talking heads. Everyone wants to know "WHY!!!!????"

The answer is so simple. It was NOT because of guns, it was because the PERP IS NUTS!!!! A F'ing PSYCHOPATH!

and it is so ironic that this is just what so many movies are about: Whackos who go on killing sprees!STFU.

[wa6mhz]

sorry

[KJ3N]

Now we will hear a kneejerk call for banning of all guns. But that won't solve the problem. we need to ban WHACKOS and NUTS who do this kind of thing!

The news is going crazy today. Radio and TV have the world glued to the dial. Everyone wants more and more info. More interviews, more speculation from talking heads. Everyone wants to know "WHY!!!!????"

The answer is so simple. It was NOT because of guns, it was because the PERP IS NUTS!!!! A F'ing PSYCHOPATH!

and it is so ironic that this is just what so many movies are about: Whackos who go on killing sprees!

The next time you have a thought, just let it die. WTF is wrong with you?

[K7SGJ]

I think a couple of you are a little out of line, here. If that's how Pat feels, what's wrong with posting it? There is some truth to what he said, and it really doesn't call for such harsh remarks. Many on here posted very similar comments after the Tucson shootings. Sheesh.

[wa6mhz]

My sincere condolences for all the victims and those affected by this terrible tragedy. I meant no disrespect to any of them.

[W4GPL]

I think a couple of you are a little out of line, here. If that's how Pat feels, what's wrong with posting it? There is some truth to what he said, and it really doesn't call for such harsh remarks. Many on here posted very similar comments after the Tucson shootings. Sheesh.People are still bleeding, some people are still awaiting surgery... Do we really need the "DERP DERP GUNS DERNT KILL; PPL KILL" bullshit already? We're seriously going to proactively defend the use of a type of weapon that slaughtered at least a dozen people less than 8 hours ago? Very bad form.

And if I seem angry and scared, I am. I'm still waiting for txt msgs from friends and co-workers who live in that area to make sure they're not laying dead. So.. I don't feel I'm the one who is out of line.

[NY3V]

Now we will hear a kneejerk call for banning of all guns. But that won't solve the problem. we need to ban WHACKOS and NUTS who do this kind of thing!

The news is going crazy today. Radio and TV have the world glued to the dial. Everyone wants more and more info. More interviews, more speculation from talking heads. Everyone wants to know "WHY!!!!????"

The answer is so simple. It was NOT because of guns, it was because the PERP IS NUTS!!!! A F'ing PSYCHOPATH!

and it is so ironic that this is just what so many movies are about: Whackos who go on killing sprees!

We need to require mental exams before anyone is granted a gun permit.

Especially, Tea Party Wackos!

That would have saved Travon Martin's life!

[K7SGJ]

I rest my case.

[KG4NEL]

People are still bleeding, some people are still waiting surgery... Do we really need the "DERP DERP GUNS DERNT KILL; PPL KILL" bullshit already? We're seriously going to proactively defend the use of a type of weapon that slaughtered at least a dozen people less than 8 hours ago? Very bad form.

And if I seem angry and scared, I am. I'm still waiting for txt msgs from friends who live in that area to make sure they're not laying dead. So.. I don't feel I'm the one who is out of line.

This is basically why I shut the news off for 2 weeks following the Virginia Tech shootings. I didn't need Wolf Blitzer telling me what I should feel about a situation I could have very well been in, and had friends in. Not to mention the vultures asking dumbass questions like "Are you coming back to campus?" :wtf:

Pat's remarks don't stir me up, I guess, because I've heard it all before...

[W4GPL]

Pat's remarks don't stir me up, I guess, because I've heard it all before...I'm a gun owner, I am often on Pat's side of the argument -- I just don't think we need the discussion at this very moment. Talk about whatever you want, but I think it's just in poor taste to immediately defend the instrument used in this tragedy.

And I took Mike (AMI)'s bait about the tea party, I should have left that alone.. I'm sorry about that.

[PA5COR]

I refer back to my post on page 2 for my opinion.

Let's try to keep it civilised yes?

[K8LET]

When things like this occur, everyone should be forced to only offer condolences and thoughts for those affected for at least 24 hours.

[KK4AMI]

I refer back to my post on page 2 for my opinion.

Let's try to keep it civilised yes?

That is hard to do. This is a very emotional topic about what amounts to a very uncivilized event. The search for an explanation why has more to do with reassuring us that it couldn't happen to us. I'm not so reassured anymore.

[wa6mhz]

Jeff, I heard on the radio that the police collected cellphones from the movie patrons for some reason, maybe because some may have shot some video of the event they needed for evidence. That may be why you have not heard back from some of your friends. I hope they are all OK, and I most certainly didn't wish to aggravate you in this time of a terrible tragedy. I pray all your friends are OK.

[suddenseer]

It is so sad to hear about this. We will all be asking "why"?. The media will soon be interviewing the alleged perp's neighbors probably remarking what a kind, quiet guy he was. I feel sickened that children where involved. I hope he pays for what he did. Allow the justice system to do it's job.

[W4GPL]

I'm starting to get the sickening feeling that he might have been targeting children, based on the Denver video stream I've been watching. That's completely unconfirmed speculation, for what it's worth.

[K8LET]

Anyone else surprised at the number of children at a midnight showing of a violent movie? I know it's PG-13... but lots of reports of kids a lot younger than that... babies even.

[N2CHX]

Anyone else surprised at the number of children at a midnight showing of a violent movie? I know it's PG-13... but lots of reports of kids a lot younger than that... babies even.

I did. I'm pretty liberal as parents go and even I'm pretty disturbed by that.

[W4GPL]

I simply cannot comprehend why a 3 month old baby was at a movie theater.. much less at 12am. But that's really besides the point right now..

Edit: For what it's worth, that baby has been treated and released from the hospital. Looking for any positives here.

[KC2UGV]

deleted by me.

[WØTKX]

Wow, just wow. Just woke up. This just sucks.

Deranged people do use popular ugly rhetoric to justify killing innocents.
They will find a reason, many even have claimed the Bible as their source.

Sick, sick, sick, SICK!

Others use such tragedies for personal rhetoric on forums and the news.

Almost as sick, and certainly distasteful. As St. George the Carlin said... "We are all diseased".

My first place in Colorado was so close to that old mall, that's where I used to go shopping.
Especially the now defunct book store that used to be there. Discount Science Fiction section.

And now, a science fiction style movie became the venue for a "real" Dark Knight to wreak havoc.

[K8LET]

For what it's worth, that baby has been treated and released from the hospital. Looking for any positives here.

First good news I've heard out of this tragedy, thank you for that.

[W4GPL]

FBI is reporting a "very sophisticated" booby-trap at the gunman's apartment.

[W4GPL]

deleted by me.I took the bait too, thanks for the retraction (whatever it was)..

Let's back off the politics and gun talk for at least today. There's plenty of time for review and debate later.

Edit: No intention to censor anyone, let's at least use this thread to talk about the victims and the facts of the crime. If y'all want to discuss the other aspects, that's up to you in the proper threads & forum.

[WØTKX]

That brick building at 17th and Peoria, I used to freakin' deliver Pizzas there. :omg:

[W4GPL]

That brick building at 17th and Peoria, I used to freakin' deliver Pizzas there. :omg:If it's where I think it is, they're like tiny 500sq ft studios.

I'm flying back in a couple of hours, should be an interesting flight.

[WØTKX]

Yes, lots of apartments there... it's one block off of Peoria. Very close to Colfax.

Part time pizza delivery on Monday nights was lucrative. Football night.

[K8LET]

Unbelievable, ABC is reporting that James Holmes is a member of the Tea Party.

I know there's a desire to move past this (rightfully so), but I thought it was important to note that ABC has now retracted this statement: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/aurora-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-identified-james-holmes/story?id=16818889#.UAl3XJKPVQt



An earlier ABC News broadcast report suggested that a Jim Holmes of a Colorado Tea Party organization might be the suspect, but that report was incorrect. Several other local residents with similar names were also contacted via social media by members of the public who mistook them for the suspect.

[KG4CGC]

I'm absolutely speechless. This is sad.

[K7SGJ]

Try as I may, I just can not understand how this can happen. Yes, I know, he is a sick fuck. But what goes wrong in someones head that they can justify this kind of evil action? I really believe that even if someone like this had no access to firearms, they could easily build a pipe bomb or other weapon of destruction that would be as, if not more deadly. Like someone said earlier, it's not the method, it's the deed. As technology and medicine constantly evolve, I wonder if there will ever be a way to detect these tendencies in a person early on, and preempt tragedies like this? I'd like to hope so.

[KC2UGV]

This is a sad day indeed, and my hopes are with the families of those dead, and with the ones who are injured.

[W5GA]

This is just fucking sick, and my thoughts and prayers are of and with the victims & families. The latest report I've seen is this whacko's apartment may have several booby traps in it, so I sure hope that nobody gets hurt cleaning that mess up. His parents have apparently declined to comment for the moment, FWIW.

[KG4NEL]

As technology and medicine constantly evolve, I wonder if there will ever be a way to detect these tendencies in a person early on, and preempt tragedies like this? I'd like to hope so.

The second part involves humans. Having plenty of advanced notice that a person needs help isn't enough - people are amazingly good at dismissing signs, ignoring problems, brushing it off as no big deal.

[W5GA]

The second part involves humans. Having plenty of advanced notice that a person needs help isn't enough - people are amazingly good at dismissing signs, ignoring problems, brushing it off as no big deal.
Especially in the case fily members.

[W5GA]

The second part involves humans. Having plenty of advanced notice that a person needs help isn't enough - people are amazingly good at dismissing signs, ignoring problems, brushing it off as no big deal.
Especially in the case family members.

[KG4CGC]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12856579-woman-who-died-in-colo-movie-rampage-narrowly-escaped-being-shot-last-month?lite%2F

This is really sad too. Almost like a different movie where death was chasing after a group of people.

[N8GAV]

I just don't understand this. What the fuck is going on in this world? I've been in a down mood ever since I turned on the TV and saw it this morning. WOW

[w2amr]

According to our news the suspect is the 24 year old James Holmes.
He was caught near a car on the parking space near the center.
FBI stated no reasons to suspect or treat it as a terrorist attack.
12 people killed and dozens wounded, including 2 critically wounded.

The arrested man told the FBI he had explosives in his house, The police are investigating that and look for explosives in the area this all happened.
He will probably turn out to be a schizophrenic, Or maybe have a brain tumor. Those poor people.

[kf0rt]

Local news says he had a degree in neuroscience and was in the process of withdrawing as a PhD candidate at the C.U. School of Medicine.

[KJ3N]

Well, you can't get through the day without someone being a complete asshole (http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12856827-how-not-to-respond-to-a-tragedy?lite).

[w2amr]

Well, you can't get through the day without someone being a complete asshole (http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12856827-how-not-to-respond-to-a-tragedy?lite).
Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas):roll:

[PA5COR]

It follows the way all killings do Gifford, Finland Etc.
At first the sheer shock and horror of what happened.

About 12 hours after it happened, the first two stages are already on full display. Those on the far right saying if somebody in the audience had a gun, maybe this wouldn't have happened. Somebody on the other side saying we need more gun laws.

Heck somebody on the Religious right will most likely say it happened because of our "godless" society and it isn't a fluke the individual choose the Batman movie as his target., Ah, just happened....


In almost all these cases in an Internet society, we'll find a lot of writings by the suspect, James Holmes.
Terrible writings and rants on social media sites and Internet forums.
Writing that should have raised a lot of red flags.
\We'll find friends, family members, and teachers worried about him.
Most likely they tried to get him help. But for any number of reasons he fell through the crack of our health and mental care system.
His mother wasn't surprised even, she had expected this... why not warn ?

Those around this individual knew he was troubled. Knew he was a risk. And try as they might to get him help.

[N8YX]

We'll find friends, family members, and teachers worried about him.
Most likely they tried to get him help. But for any number of reasons he fell through the crack of our health and mental care system.
His mother wasn't surprised even, she had expected this... why not warn ?

Those around this individual knew he was troubled. Knew he was a risk. And try as they might to get him help.
This right here is the root of the problem.

Genius-level people adopt genius-level solutions to challenges, no matter how distorted their perceptions of the world happen to be. Until we as a society start getting unstable people the help they need - indeed, realizing they need help in the first place - expect more of the same.

It doesn't have to be with a gun, either. Our 'friends' in the former Soviet Bloc countries seem to have no trouble whatsoever coming up with IEDs that inflict ghastly amounts of carnage when deployed in a crowded venue. Truth be told, I'm surprised that some twisted individual hasn't copycatted them by now on U.S. soil.

[KJ3N]

It doesn't have to be with a gun, either. Our 'friends' in the former Soviet Bloc countries seem to have no trouble whatsoever coming up with IEDs that inflict ghastly amounts of carnage when deployed in a crowded venue. Truth be told, I'm surprised that some twisted individual hasn't copycatted them by now on U.S. soil.

Timothy McVeigh?

[N8YX]

Timothy McVeigh?
Think Beslan. And similar scenarios.

I can think of numerous ways to pretty much do the entire theatre at once, and not one involves the quantities of AMFO that McVeigh used. Hell, as porous as our southern border is at the moment one could probably obtain a good quantity of plastique - either ours or ComBloc surplus - then bring it back and employ the stuff for nefarious purposes. An improvised FAE is another horrific "what-if", and such a device wouldn't be that hard to stage and detonate in a cinema.

We can ban everything up to and including spitballs as a result of this, but criminals - more precisely, the criminally insane - are still going to pursue their ghastly affairs...unencumbered by silly little laws.

[n2ize]

Just to weigh in on this, there is little I can say other than, what a shame. This was a tragfedy and I can appreciate how difficult it is going to be for wounded victims, families, and families of those deceased to deal with this and come to terms with it.

As far as why it happened, what drove this lad to do this ? Who knows. It's anyones guess. If it is true that he did somehow slip through the mental health system that that really says something. It is one reason why I am always disturbed when I hear politicians calling for cuts to things like social services, medical and mental health services, etc... There is good reason why we need a comprehensive universal health care system. This is one of them.

As far as the pro-gun/anti-gun nonsense, well I won't even go there.

[W4GPL]

Whatever.

[n2ize]

Whatever.

I couldn;t agree more. Not much more can be said than whats been said. Only God can say why people do such terrible things to one another.

[W4GPL]

Just whatever, that wasn't directed to your reply.

"Holmes carried a magazine capable of holding more than 100 rounds and that his guns were purchased legally in the past 6 months." Just as easy as going to Mexico and buying plastic explosives, right? :roll:

[n2ize]

Just whatever, that wasn't directed to your reply.

"Holmes carried a magazine capable of holding more than 100 rounds and that his guns were purchased legally in the past 6 months." Just as easy as going to Mexico and buying plastic explosives, right? :roll:
Obviously no. Of course a person with the proper know-how can easily make explosives of all types but for some reason amongst these disturbed people it seems they usually prefer guns, often legally obtained. The question, do people really need a magazine that can hold 100 bullets ? I used to have a clip that held 20 or 25 or so and I felt that was excessive. For most of the shooting I did (target and plinking) I found a 6 round clip more than adequate. And most of the time a single shot bolt action was enough. The question is, how much firepower does the average sportsman really need. ?

[N8YX]

Just whatever, that wasn't directed to your reply.

"Holmes carried a magazine capable of holding more than 100 rounds and that his guns were purchased legally in the past 6 months." Just as easy as going to Mexico and buying plastic explosives, right? :roll:
Picture of the recovered weapon, lying in situ:

6513

Standard 30rd GI-issue mag. Nothing special about it at all. In a pinch, tape a bunch of 20rd mags together; side-by-side. Takes a practiced shooter about 5 seconds to reload. Our troops do it all the time. No further info on the drum, but speculation has it as a Beta C-Mag. Not very reliable.

As far as your other statements, Jeff...if people want to kill other people they're going to find ways to do it - guns or not. Removing them from the equation isn't the solution. Lack of firearms didn't matter for Cain and Abel; won't matter for modern, deranged man either.

Plastique and its equivalents are relatively easy to acquire or manufacture. Hell, you could even loot a construction or mining operation for supplies needed to make one nasty shrapnel device which is capable of almost total lethality in such a confined space.

It's about the motive, not the tool.

[W4GPL]

I keep hearing people say that, but why is the gun the choice in almost all of these incidents?

[KC2UGV]

When we outlaw nuclear weapons, only outlaws will have nuclear weapons.

Fissile material isn't too hard to make, and all you need to start is some lead (Easy, lead weights), and a few smoke detectors. After a couple rounds in the reactor, you have plutonium good enough for a decent sized dirty bomb.

Banning nuclear weapons isn't the answer, since it's the motive, not the tool. People who want nuclear weapons will get them anyways.

[PA5COR]

Because it is readily available as does home made explosives do, fertilizer, oxidizer like diesel can do a building with a truck...

[N8YX]

I keep hearing people say that, but why is the gun the choice in almost all of these incidents?
Shock effect, and most people (here - U.S.) haven't yet learned the finer points of bomb and incendiary device construction.

Take every gun off the streets tomorrow - including the police, as England has done with the bobbies - and the murder faction will begin to examine alternatives.

Frankly, an active shooter scenario scares me very little compared to the outcome of a determined individual with access to a bioweapon, IED or thermobaric device. Imagine the carnage if the shooter had walked into the crowd with a flamethrower, immersed the front two or three rows of people with jellied gas or napalm then hit the sparkers.

Such a construct along with its fuel is stupidly easy to build, and all materials can be legally obtained by anyone.

[N8YX]

When we outlaw nuclear weapons, only outlaws will have nuclear weapons.

Fissile material isn't too hard to make, and all you need to start is some lead (Easy, lead weights), and a few smoke detectors. After a couple rounds in the reactor, you have plutonium good enough for a decent sized dirty bomb.

Banning nuclear weapons isn't the answer, since it's the motive, not the tool. People who want nuclear weapons will get them anyways.
They're already banned for civilian manufacture and use. Next strawman?

[N8YX]

Stolen from elsewhere but very germaine:


More than 20 people killed in automobile accidents since this thread started.

Where's the outcry to ban cars?

We can't ban them outright, but if they were restricted to travel no faster than 30 miles an hour, think of all the lives that could be saved...

I'm going to grab a bite to eat at our local Mexican joint; don't beat each other up too drastically while I'm gone. ;)

[KC2UGV]

They're already banned for civilian manufacture and use. Next strawman?

Right, and notice nuclear weapon usage in crimes is non-existent?

[N8YX]

Right, and notice nuclear weapon usage in crimes is non-existent?
Using one gets the originating country glassed as soon as it's found out from whence it came, especially if the isotopes used therein can be traced to non-U.S. enrichment programs.

Your argument is about as asinine in that regard as the rock in my front yard which I bought from a guy to ward off tigers. Haven't seen any so it must be working, right?

[KC2UGV]

Using one gets the originating country glassed as soon as it's found out from whence it came, especially if the isotopes used therein can be traced to non-U.S. enrichment programs.

Your argument is about as asinine in that regard as the rock in my front yard which I bought from a guy to ward off tigers. Haven't seen any so it must be working, right?

Ok, well, can you find an instance of a nuclear device being used to hold up a store? I haven't. Ever.

How about the use of a nuclear device to blow up a building? I've not see one. Ever.

Seems the civilian ban on nuclear weapons is doing a fine job of keeping civilians from buying nuclear weapons, and using them to blow up a building, or hold up a store.

[NY3V]

The shooter's family (parents) live guess where?


San Diego

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/07/san-diego-dark-knight-shooting-mother.html

[N7YA]

1. I am concerned first with the victims, not just because its the right thing to do in a public forum at this stage, but because i am. I was very happy to see the 3 month old baby was released and is now home with its parents. Great news there. As well as a 17 year old kid who skipped basketball practice with his friends to go see the movie. He was hit in the leg, arm, chest and head, but he also survived and is recovering at home....extremely lucky! Twelve others werent so lucky, and i feel sick and saddened for their families this morning. There are 12 families who are going to skip dinner tonight because someones missing. Its going to be a rough night for those families, it is them im thinking of right now.

2. The guy didnt belong to the Tea Party, he wasnt a politically charged person, he wasnt a Muslim....he was, as i suspected, just plain nuts. After something like this, we have become too accustomed to labelling immediately. He bought a ticket to the movie, half hour in, he slipped out the emergency exit and propped it open knowing full well that once he started his grisly task, thats exactly where folks were going to run to. He geared up at his car parked out back then went back through the E door and did his senseless shit. After he shot up the inside, he stood outside and picked them off as they tried to escape out that same door. The cops were already getting there while he was still in the building, thats a quick response...credit to them, they were fast and they didnt do like cops seem to love doing, they didnt blow him into the next county. However, when they apprehended him, he told them his name was "The Joker", he even dyed his hair red to match the character. He was motivated by a fictional character. He is just plain nuts.

3. The gun argument is a slippery slope. I have made myself clear many times before on the island about my views on guns. I support gun ownership. I also support examining WHY you feel you need to own guns. Is it a 'tough guy' thing? Is it a traditional way you grew up and they were always around? Perhaps you use them for work in law enforcement or military. It could be precautionary against people like James Holmes, or even big dangerous wildlife if you live in areas like that. No matter what the reson, i cant tell you what to do and i dont feel its right to try. I personally hate the fact that we have to strap up so heavily in this country, either through fear, tradition or insecurity....i wish it was different, but it would have had to be different over 200 years ago, just isnt going to happen now. We cant just "round up everyones guns" and make them illegal, you will find yourself on the business end of those very guns. People cite England not having guns, true, they have no guns. But what they do have is rampant crime with strongarm, blunt weapons and LOTS of stabbing. There are tons of stabbings over there. If you leave London and go to the countryside, where you think its safe, its not. I meet people from all over the world, the folks from England, and the UK in general mention knife attacks are worse than ever right now (barring, of course, ancient times. Rough place back then).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/23/knife-crime-statistics
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/datablog/2012/apr/12/london-knife-crime

Right now, we are a frail society, bitterly divided and noone has any answers we can all agree on. Its a dangerous situation...couple this one particular topic with all the other things we absolutely hate eachother over and we are mixing lye and bleach in the same bucket!

4. Catching them before they do it! We see so many people after something like this that say the same thing, either he was a nice, quiet guy who kept to himself, or he was "a little weird" but they never thought he could do something like this. Even if you suspect someone of being a nutcase, what are going to do? Have them institutionalized? Especially if they didnt do anything, like James Holmes...squeeky clean record. Are you going to grab them out of their home and put them through psychological examinations because you convinced the cops that you think he is suspicious? There arent enough lawyers to keep up with the subsequent suits that will be filed as a result.

So the results would be just as crazy if perceptions were allowed to rule. On one hand, we can force everyone to go to church, at least every sunday, and require everyone to be christian. Require everyone to own at least one firearm. And every house on every street is a prickly fortress of intense security and paranoia with a big cross sticking out the top as so not to generate any talk around town about how suspicious that house without the cross is. Everyone unsnapping their holster when someone sneezes. Militia groups patrolling the streets and back highways. Then xenophobia begins to run unchecked and we become Afghanistan.

or...

We round up every firearm, knife, baseball bat, bible, person who acts suspicious, person who is nice yet quiet, openly practising christians, etc...and either melt them down, lock them up or kick them out. You know, to protect the kids. Then xenophobia begins to run unchecked and we become Afghanistan.

Obviously, these are extremes, but you have to admit, just 20 years ago, the attitudes and actions that we call common today were considered extreme and unrealistic. 20 years ago, nobody would have thought we would be seeing, much less doing, the shit we have today. So one mans warning sign is another mans normalcy.

[N8YX]

Quit trying to inject logic into the discussion, Adam.

[K8LET]

Ok, well, can you find an instance of a nuclear device being used to hold up a store? I haven't. Ever.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/02/prince-george-s-county-bank-robber-threatening-tellers-with-nuclear-bomb-73096.html



Prince George's County Police have released surveillance video of a man behind a string of armed bank robberies who police say is threatening tellers with a nuclear weapon.

>.>



Seems the civilian ban on nuclear weapons is doing a fine job of keeping civilians from buying nuclear weapons, and using them to blow up a building, or hold up a store.

It does prompt an interesting thought... at what point does the arm become so dangerous to the public at large that the citizenry looses it's right to bear it? Given that an "accidental discharge" of an atomic weapon is both possible and the consequences potentially involve city blocks.. I think nuclear arms are obviously on a scale incomparable to small arms. Most gun control discussions break down into what is "reasonable" for a private citizen to have for sport and protection, and most people simply have different opinions of that.. and always will.

It is interesting to note that the perpetrator here could have killed far more people by simply barring the exits and lighting the place on fire though...

[N7YA]

My bad.

[K8LET]

As an aside... I think changing the gun culture in America would be far more effective than changing the gun laws.

[N8YX]

As an aside... I think changing the gun culture in America would be far more effective than changing the gun laws.

How so? Millions of law-abiding gun owners a week use theirs in a completely legal manner, harming nothing or no one.

The problem has always been "people".

[KC2UGV]

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/02/prince-george-s-county-bank-robber-threatening-tellers-with-nuclear-bomb-73096.html



>.>


Ok, you got me lol



It does prompt an interesting thought... at what point does the arm become so dangerous to the public at large that the citizenry looses it's right to bear it? Given that an "accidental discharge" of an atomic weapon is both possible and the consequences potentially involve city blocks.. I think nuclear arms are obviously on a scale incomparable to small arms. Most gun control discussions break down into what is "reasonable" for a private citizen to have for sport and protection, and most people simply have different opinions of that.. and always will.

It is interesting to note that the perpetrator here could have killed far more people by simply barring the exits and lighting the place on fire though...

And this here is the crux of the argument, and why the second amendment was written as vague as it was. It's not a very clear sentence, and is rife with the ability to interpret it to mean a great many things, and that interpretation was entrusted to our SCOTUS, to allow it to be flexible with the years to match the time.

When it was written? Every male, 16 years of age and older, was a member of a well regulated militia, there were only 2 types of guns, and people were mandated to own one to keep at the local battery. And usually, one was carried when outside of the town limits.

Times have changed, and we have thousands of types of guns now, we don't need to worry about highwaymen, we're not mandated to own one, there's no local battery, and we have a voluntary military service.

The second has been interpreted to mean at least 3 various meaning over the ages, and will most likely be reinterpreted again, as the public's definition of what kinds of weapons one should be allowed to own changes.

[K8LET]

How so? Millions of law-abiding gun owners a week use theirs in a completely legal manner, harming nothing or no one.

The problem has always been "people".

I didn't say change the culture of gun owners. I'm referring mostly to inner city culture as well as popular culture. I'm not sure guns are properly respected by the public at large, especially by youth.

[KC2UGV]

How so? Millions of law-abiding gun owners a week use theirs in a completely legal manner, harming nothing or no one.

The problem has always been "people".

And, at least 12,000 gun owners last year used their guns to murder. Not including the murders that came about like Trayvon Martin. Those aren't murders, those were "standing my ground" killings. There were 195 such instances in FL alone of that.

[K8LET]

And this here is the crux of the argument, and why the second amendment was written as vague as it was. It's not a very clear sentence, and is rife with the ability to interpret it to mean a great many things, and that interpretation was entrusted to our SCOTUS, to allow it to be flexible with the years to match the time.

When it was written? Every male, 16 years of age and older, was a member of a well regulated militia, there were only 2 types of guns, and people were mandated to own one to keep at the local battery. And usually, one was carried when outside of the town limits.

Times have changed, and we have thousands of types of guns now, we don't need to worry about highwaymen, we're not mandated to own one, there's no local battery, and we have a voluntary military service.

The second has been interpreted to mean at least 3 various meaning over the ages, and will most likely be reinterpreted again, as the public's definition of what kinds of weapons one should be allowed to own changes.

Perhaps having a "well regulated militia" again wouldn't be a bad thing... might even help keep kids off the streets.

Also, "we're not mandated to own one" .. unless you live in Kennesaw, GA ;)

[KC2UGV]

Perhaps having a "well regulated militia" again wouldn't be a bad thing... might even help keep kids off the streets.


And I agree. We should have well-regulated militia, like the Michigan Militia.



Also, "we're not mandated to own one" .. unless you live in Kennesaw, GA ;)

We used to be. Every single male, over the age of 18 (Not 16, as I previously stated), was mandated to buy a gun, a full load of ammunition, and store it at the local battery:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Statutes_at_Large/Volume_1/2nd_Congress/1st_Session/Chapter_33

[N2CHX]

I wholeheartedly agree with N7YA's 4 part post.

[n2ize]

And, at least 12,000 gun owners last year used their guns to murder. Not including the murders that came about like Trayvon Martin. Those aren't murders, those were "standing my ground" killings. There were 195 such instances in FL alone of that.

It's a failed tradeoff. Thats why legitimate gun owners won't make the trade.

[ki4itv]

I wholeheartedly agree with N7YA's 4 part post.
Yeah, he pretty much nailed it.

[NA4BH]

Not to stray from the subject, but wasn't Brandon Duke from that area? If he was, wonder if there was any connection between the two.

[X-Rated]

1. I am concerned first with the victims, not just because its the right thing to do in a public forum at this stage, but because i am. I was very happy to see the 3 month old baby was released and is now home with its parents. Great news there. As well as a 17 year old kid who skipped basketball practice with his friends to go see the movie. He was hit in the leg, arm, chest and head, but he also survived and is recovering at home....extremely lucky! Twelve others werent so lucky, and i feel sick and saddened for their families this morning. There are 12 families who are going to skip dinner tonight because someones missing. Its going to be a rough night for those families, it is them im thinking of right now.

I'm right there with you there, brah.


2. The guy didnt belong to the Tea Party, he wasnt a politically charged person, he wasnt a Muslim....he was, as i suspected, just plain nuts. After something like this, we have become too accustomed to labelling immediately.

He is a terrorist. We spend billions of dollars every year killing kids in the Middle East whose friends and relatives shoot rockets into desert wasteland killing and injuring no one, we can easily slap the label on a mass murder as a terrorist. Homes is an honor student. PhD material. Neuroscience in a Ph.D or some such discipline. These are the people who write the books that the rest of us reference in our quest for knowledge because of the way our society is constructed. We may joke about PhD standing for "Piled Higher and Deeper", but the reality is that these are not "nut jobs".


He bought a ticket to the movie, half hour in, he slipped out the emergency exit and propped it open knowing full well that once he started his grisly task, thats exactly where folks were going to run to. He geared up at his car parked out back then went back through the E door and did his senseless shit. After he shot up the inside, he stood outside and picked them off as they tried to escape out that same door. The cops were already getting there while he was still in the building, thats a quick response...credit to them, they were fast and they didnt do like cops seem to love doing, they didnt blow him into the next county. However, when they apprehended him, he told them his name was "The Joker", he even dyed his hair red to match the character. He was motivated by a fictional character. He is just plain nuts.

This is terrorism.


3. The gun argument is a slippery slope. I have made myself clear many times before on the island about my views on guns. I support gun ownership. I also support examining WHY you feel you need to own guns. Is it a 'tough guy' thing? Is it a traditional way you grew up and they were always around? Perhaps you use them for work in law enforcement or military. It could be precautionary against people like James Holmes, or even big dangerous wildlife if you live in areas like that. No matter what the reson, i cant tell you what to do and i dont feel its right to try. I personally hate the fact that we have to strap up so heavily in this country, either through fear, tradition or insecurity....i wish it was different, but it would have had to be different over 200 years ago, just isnt going to happen now. We cant just "round up everyones guns" and make them illegal, you will find yourself on the business end of those very guns. People cite England not having guns, true, they have no guns. But what they do have is rampant crime with strongarm, blunt weapons and LOTS of stabbing. There are tons of stabbings over there. If you leave London and go to the countryside, where you think its safe, its not. I meet people from all over the world, the folks from England, and the UK in general mention knife attacks are worse than ever right now (barring, of course, ancient times. Rough place back then).

Besides the NRA and right wingers, who is talking about taking away all of our guns? Please reference. I have asked on other boards and have received no reply.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/23/knife-crime-statistics
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/datablog/2012/apr/12/london-knife-crime

Well that is a shame. The population of the UK is 50 million. The population of the US is 313 million. 270 stabbings in England is a 1:185k problem

Wikipedia says
There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

So JUST LOOKING AT THE homicides, it is a 1:25k issue. How often does England have a kid playing with knives when it goes off accidentally and kills someone? I am not saying it doesn't happen, just asking for the statistics.


Right now, we are a frail society, bitterly divided and noone has any answers we can all agree on. Its a dangerous situation...couple this one particular topic with all the other things we absolutely hate eachother over and we are mixing lye and bleach in the same bucket!

I commend you on this post. I appreciate the time and effort that went in to putting these thoughts and ideas together. These discussions help bridge the gap between here and there.


4. Catching them before they do it! We see so many people after something like this that say the same thing, either he was a nice, quiet guy who kept to himself, or he was "a little weird" but they never thought he could do something like this. Even if you suspect someone of being a nutcase, what are going to do? Have them institutionalized? Especially if they didnt do anything, like James Holmes...squeeky clean record. Are you going to grab them out of their home and put them through psychological examinations because you convinced the cops that you think he is suspicious? There arent enough lawyers to keep up with the subsequent suits that will be filed as a result.

What are you saying here? Ask someone around here who has had health problems eat up their life's savings in the process of recovery whether they can go out and easily get a loan on a new home after having to go bankrupt. Go ahead. I'll wait...Okay. No they can't. So, if society can limit how we can make purchases on homes where we can live, why can it not make limits on what we want to buy to shoot things? The precedent has been set.


So the results would be just as crazy if perceptions were allowed to rule. On one hand, we can force everyone to go to church, at least every sunday, and require everyone to be christian. Require everyone to own at least one firearm. And every house on every street is a prickly fortress of intense security and paranoia with a big cross sticking out the top as so not to generate any talk around town about how suspicious that house without the cross is. Everyone unsnapping their holster when someone sneezes. Militia groups patrolling the streets and back highways. Then xenophobia begins to run unchecked and we become Afghanistan.

or...

We round up every firearm, knife, baseball bat, bible, person who acts suspicious, person who is nice yet quiet, openly practising christians, etc...and either melt them down, lock them up or kick them out. You know, to protect the kids. Then xenophobia begins to run unchecked and we become Afghanistan.

Obviously, these are extremes, but you have to admit, just 20 years ago, the attitudes and actions that we call common today were considered extreme and unrealistic. 20 years ago, nobody would have thought we would be seeing, much less doing, the shit we have today. So one mans warning sign is another mans normalcy.

Time will tell, but only what we decide to make it tell.

[n2ize]

One thing for sure. More gun restrictions won't change anything. Apparently; this guys family knew he wasn't right but nobody did anything about it.

[PA5COR]

In Europe we have the same problem, maybe somewhat less as in the USA, but catching up.
Anders Breivik, inspired by the right wing nutters and boards took many innocent lives just because they were members of a social democracy group, blew up a car bomb indiscriminately killing people in the street whatever their political stance was, just to prove a point.

In Germany we had kids stealing their fathers guns and killing in their schools.
We had nutters using knives killing other kids or their ex wife in school, and a gunman killing in a mall...
I have guns at home, as do 100.000 other Dutch people have, same goes for the UK where you still can own long guns for shooting or hunting, or own a shotgun without much problem.

It is even relative easy to get illegal guns, or hand grenades, through the wars in Yugoslavia, lots of these weapons came from there.
In all European countries you can own guns and ammo if you really want.

Most of these terrorist killers take their time, prepare their act, and have enough time to think it over, most are loners, shun contact and after they did their terrorist act people come with stories that they knew the guy was "odd" and they suspected some problems, but nobody took it to the police.

In Breiviks case as many others if police had investigated they would have found the evidence he was up to something bad.
Since we live in a society where else as for 100 years back people don't communicate anymore with each other and interact as close knit society and privacy became the new fashion word, we shun to take action or go deeper into something in a member of society we know, afraid to what we might find, or have a word with the person.

Banning guns isn't the solution, a dedicated terrorist will still find a way to get a weapon of mass destruction, be it homemade explosives illegal guns, firebombs, knives or whatever he can come up with, now it is guns because they are readily available and easy pick.

Our society became like loose sand, most our acquaintances are like loose sand, not the deep friendships we had before, nor the direct involvement with neighbours or our society, the ME generation doesn't care.
Hence the opportunity for some to go off the rails to become a terrorist missing the control we had as society before, internet gave everyone a tool to get knowledge even the wrong one and can be fed with more evil to support their terrorist mind thinking, like Breivik..

In all our history we have been known for not being so nice, look at the wars, and mayhem that created where ordinary people became monsters killing indiscriminately, that is our real us, our society set rules to prevent that and live relatively peaceful together.
Add the pressure put on people today, expectations to fulfil, demands on them from friends and what society sets as the "norm" or even family expectations.

Murders were around in all our history starting with Cain and Abel up to now, just the availability of better weapons makes mass killings easier, if that is guns or other ways.

More people on the earth and closer together will add to the frustration some feel and go off the rails.
More demands we put on people as family or society or as friends and no control mechanism will make it more common too.
The political divide and the war like calls of talkshow hosts or nutters as political people hate groups etc will get a number of followers to go out of control, in the USA you have more as 2000 hate groups heavily armed.
Extremism in Religion is not just for Muslims, the Judeo Christian has the same problem in the USA, the NRA feeding on the fear frenzy to sell more guns and profit from that, talkshow hosts feeding and aggravating fear, setting the weak of mind into killing frenzy's or preparing for it..

Tea party, Oath keepers KKK name the hate groups and you will just feed the weak of mind.... this will not go well.
Divide the people and rule over them, a society that is close knit wouldn't let that happen so it is in some politics groups corn on their mill to keep people divided and in fear.


If we don't address these problems we will see these things and terrorist attacks become more and more the news of the day.

[kf0rt]

Not to stray from the subject, but wasn't Brandon Duke from that area? If he was, wonder if there was any connection between the two.

No connection (other than maybe a shared psychosis). Duke's been in jail for some time and he was "up in Longmont." Last seen taking pot-shots at cops; I don't think he'll be out any time soon - was sentenced to 55 years.

[kf0rt]

This guy nails Aurora pretty well:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2120098,00.html?hpt=hp_t1

Corrections and omissions, though... Aurora really was a pretty "Wally and the Beav" suburb until maybe 1970 or so.

What the piece misses though is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowry_Air_Force_Base and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzsimmons_Army_Hospital and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_Air_Force_Base

Yeah, a lot of working Dads (working Moms were somewhat rare then), but the real industry of Aurora was the military. About half the kids I knew growing up were "military brats." This explains the early diversification of Aurora. In a Jr. High with about 500 students, I think we had one black kid (late 60's). There were three in my High School. I don't say this with 'racial overtones' -- just the way it was back then.

The old Fitzsimmons medical complex is now the premier health center for a multi-state region and contains University Hospital (C.U. Med Center), Children's Hospital, The Anschutz Medical Center, the list goes on, and they're still building. This is where Holmes was attending school; his apartment is across the street from the campus.

Aurora was a military town into the 90's; still is in many respects. Lowry closed, but they turned Buckley into a real AFB (in the 60's it was operated by the Colorado Air National Guard). It was always my impression that a lot of that housing was built to serve the Lowry population. Little cookie-cutter houses that now sell for over $100K. Growing up there in the 60's, you got to see some amazing air shows from your lawn, but the noise wasn't always appreciated.

Great place to grow up back then. Today, I'm not sure. I still get out there a couple times a month and the traffic / crowds are as bad as anywhere else (worse than Arvada, I think). You hear sirens a lot. I-225 is always under construction, and all the big chain stores are bilingual, owing to the growing Latino population. The older part of town (where Holmes lived - quite a distance from the theaters) is mostly Latino these days.

That Holmes fella wasn't from around here.

[N7RJD]

Deleted to repost with quote missed in original.

[N7RJD]

No connection (other than maybe a shared psychosis). Duke's been in jail for some time and he was "up in Longmont." Last seen taking pot-shots at cops; I don't think he'll be out any time soon - was sentenced to 55 years.


My understanding is that there are a lot of things that he won't be doing for a long time and many that he will never be able to do at all. I guess the good part is that he will not be able to reproduce. Let's just say the cop was a better shot than Brandon.

[n2ize]

Somewhere on Facebook I saw the implication that the recent shooting was a illuminati plot. Leave it to the conspiracy theorists. There is a boogeyman in every closet.

[K8LET]

The thought of a vast conspiracy behind such violence is much more comforting then it being a random act of an insane individual. The former implies a purpose, the later randomness that could occur anywhere to anyone.

[w2amr]

Somewhere on Facebook I saw the implication that the recent shooting was a illuminati plot. Leave it to the conspiracy theorists. There is a boogeyman in every closet.And a bat in every belfry.:nuts:

[kf0rt]

My understanding is that there are a lot of things that he won't be doing for a long time and many that he will never be able to do at all. I guess the good part is that he will not be able to reproduce. Let's just say the cop was a better shot than Brandon.

That matches what I've read, Ron. I'll likely be pushing daises before anyone has to worry much about that guy again.

[kf0rt]

And a bat in every belfry.:nuts:

And a great big "steamer" percolating in Rush's brain right about now. Come Monday, this will be the fault of the damn libruls.

So far, it's not appearing that there are any political connections at all, but who knows what will turn up.

[NQ6U]

He'll probably say something along the lines of "if it wasn't for the liberals and their gun control laws, there would have been armed people in the crowd who would have taken the shooter out."

While that may not be entirely wrong, it sort of misses the point.

[kf0rt]

He'll probably say something along the lines of "if it wasn't for the liberals and their gun control laws, there would have been armed people in the crowd who would have taken the shooter out."

While that may not be entirely wrong, it sort of misses the point.

There was some chatter about that yesterday on the local AM talk circuit. According to some call-ins, the owner of the theater chain (Cinemark, I think) has a no-gun policy that includes CCW holders (but not LEO's). I think that's within their legal rights in CO. IIRC, guns in CO are by default forbidden in government buildings (including schools) and drinking establishments, but beyond that, it's up to the owner of the establishment. I don't guess I've seen many "no guns" signs, but haven't been looking...

[KC2UGV]

He'll probably say something along the lines of "if it wasn't for the liberals and their gun control laws, there would have been armed people in the crowd who would have taken the shooter out."

While that may not be entirely wrong, it sort of misses the point.

Already hearing that too... It's the "liberals fault there weren't more guns there". And, people think they can take a clean head shot, in a dark and smoky room, and not kill anyone else. Fucking ninjas, with their gorram guns.

[W4GPL]

There was some chatter about that yesterday on the local AM talk circuit. According to some call-ins, the owner of the theater chain (Cinemark, I think) has a no-gun policy that includes CCW holders (but not LEO's). I think that's within their legal rights in CO. IIRC, guns in CO are by default forbidden in government buildings (including schools) and drinking establishments, but beyond that, it's up to the owner of the establishment. I don't guess I've seen many "no guns" signs, but haven't been looking...That's my understanding of the law, as well. Though I hadn't heard one way or another if the theater specifically had a policy or not.

[W4GPL]

And FWIW, I have a concealed carry permit -- and would have never considered (allowed by the theater or not) bringing a gun into a movie theater with me -- even after what happened on Thursday night. And even if I had a gun, given the scenario, I doubt I would have been able to use it without getting shot; nevermind the fact all the armor the guy was using.

[N7YA]

I'm right there with you there, brah.

>The more this unfolds, the more we learn about who was shot, its heart breaking, as always with situations like this.


He is a terrorist. We spend billions of dollars every year killing kids in the Middle East whose friends and relatives shoot rockets into desert wasteland killing and injuring no one, we can easily slap the label on a mass murder as a terrorist. Homes is an honor student. PhD material. Neuroscience in a Ph.D or some such discipline. These are the people who write the books that the rest of us reference in our quest for knowledge because of the way our society is constructed. We may joke about PhD standing for "Piled Higher and Deeper", but the reality is that these are not "nut jobs".


>Oh, i fully believe he is a nut job, a highly intelligent nut job, but a nut job nevertheless....AND a terrorist. Just not in the classic sense that were used to. I also hold the belief that those in power, who use our tax money to kill those kids in the middle east, are also terrorists. But weve been conditioned to take sides on that issue, theres no disputing it in the middle east, however, or in most places around the world. The only difference is that this guy apparently had no motive other than being "the Joker", that and the fact that he didnt send other people, using other peoples money, to go do the dirty for him. He was motivated enough to carry this out completely alone. Many PhD's in the psychiatric field go into that field to figure out their own issues, some never figure it out before going off the deep end...the shooter in Ft. Hood was an army psychiatrist. So its not just us questing for the answers.



This is terrorism.


>Agreed.



Besides the NRA and right wingers, who is talking about taking away all of our guns? Please reference. I have asked on other boards and have received no reply.


>Im certainly not! As i stated, i am in favor of gun ownership...responsible gun ownership. As soon as you can no longer display responsibility with a firearm, you should not be allowed to continue owning one. I was making a point for the extremes, which people let their fears freely take them more often than not. Im certainly not an NRA type of person, nor did i claim this. You just named the people who ARE claiming this...and they are still, to this day, waiting for Obama to come knocking on the door. My point was how that wouldnt work...at all!



Well that is a shame. The population of the UK is 50 million. The population of the US is 313 million. 270 stabbings in England is a 1:185k problem

Wikipedia says

So JUST LOOKING AT THE homicides, it is a 1:25k issue. How often does England have a kid playing with knives when it goes off accidentally and kills someone? I am not saying it doesn't happen, just asking for the statistics.


>First, i somehow get the impression that you feel im taking sides in the issue. Or that im trying to defend the gun nutters...im not, in fact, those people scare me. What i was presenting here was the fact that, if its not guns, it will be something. Guns are just far more efficient. With a blade, you have to get up close and personal, unless you work in a circus roadshow, i havent heard of many drive-by knifings. But, looking at the stats, we see "US homicides by gun", and its a big number...most of those are gang deaths, where its a common, everyday thing. The police show up, examine the body, then fill out the paperwork. They put the reason for death as gunshot...that goes into the computer, and at that point, its no longer a person, it becomes a statistic to be used and referenced to freely. People rarely look past the overall number to see how many of those deaths come from what circumstances.

>If you are arguing the fact that it doesnt matter who or where, etc...but only that it was a gun that killed them, then i agree. This is why i wish it never started out like this, i wish we never became arrogant and prideful about guns. I wish these devices of killing didnt give our countrymen such a hard on. My point was this, in order to change that, you have to go back in time over 200 years, we simply cant do that...trying to take all the guns away now would be a really bad idea. Changing the laws now will be much harder than changing the laws about smoking because every smoker knows in their heart that its bad for them and will kill them...many gun owners in this country dont realize that about guns. I have yet to see a good argument in favor of smoking aside from ignorance and arrogance, yet, it continues to kill. More than guns, i might add.



I commend you on this post. I appreciate the time and effort that went in to putting these thoughts and ideas together. These discussions help bridge the gap between here and there.

>All i want is for people to put some thought into things first. When this shooting first happened, my initial reaction was "fuck that guy, kill him"...well, i still feel he is a defective unit and i see no useful perpose for him. He wont get any better. Some things you just know right out of the gate, but i try to refrain from overemotional reaction if at all possible. That was my fault and i always try to get back on point as quick as possible.



What are you saying here? Ask someone around here who has had health problems eat up their life's savings in the process of recovery whether they can go out and easily get a loan on a new home after having to go bankrupt. Go ahead. I'll wait...Okay. No they can't. So, if society can limit how we can make purchases on homes where we can live, why can it not make limits on what we want to buy to shoot things? The precedent has been set.

>"4. Catching them before they do it! We see so many people after something like this that say the same thing, either he was a nice, quiet guy who kept to himself, or he was "a little weird" but they never thought he could do something like this. Even if you suspect someone of being a nutcase, what are going to do? Have them institutionalized? Especially if they didnt do anything, like James Holmes...squeeky clean record. Are you going to grab them out of their home and put them through psychological examinations because you convinced the cops that you think he is suspicious? There arent enough lawyers to keep up with the subsequent suits that will be filed as a result."

>Perhaps you misunderstood me here. Perhaps i misunderstood you too. I believe my point is much simpler than i wrote it, ill rephrase. People always say "Why doesnt someone recognize when people need help, then get them the help they need? Why didnt someone stop him beforehand?"...my question is HOW? Are you going to go around and round up everyone you feel is suspicious? That would be Germany 1938 all over again. Right now, they are saying that James Holmes was a "quiet, shy loner who didnt seem to be anything more than a science nerd", he played soccer, ran track and studied a lot...these are always the ones who pull off shit like this. Theres no way to guess who the ticking time bomb is.



Time will tell, but only what we decide to make it tell.

>Which is a common practice in history books, unfortunately.





By the way...i answered all the questions inside the post (with arrows) because i havent figured out how to break it up. Im sure its very simple, i just never figured it out. So....see above.

[N7YA]

Already hearing that too... It's the "liberals fault there weren't more guns there". And, people think they can take a clean head shot, in a dark and smoky room, and not kill anyone else. Fucking ninjas, with their gorram guns.


Thats a common misconception people have, unfortunately. How many of these John Waynes are going to stay cool...in the dark....with rapid gunfire, tear gas canisters popping, smoke screens, screaming, many dark figures running around, the volume of the movie, the confusion, adreniline, fear, etc, etc, etc....


How many of these "bad asses" are not going to shit their pants when the shooting actually starts and this shit becomes real! Without actual training and experience in combat, most would soil themselves, shoot more innocent people out of confusion, or simply turtle and run...which is the best idea, incidentally. The odds in favor of you sitting, well armed and ready...both physically and emotionally...nearest to the emergency exit that this guy was coming in. Paying attention, not to the movie, but to him. Seeing all the weaponry he had, noticing his body armour, head to toe, and making a calm decision as to where to target, while preparing your own weapon, in the dark...is slim to none. People often go with emotion first and not logic and that is a very bad idea. Its those people that get more innocent lives lost.

[n2ize]

And a bat in every belfry.:nuts:

10-4 George. And I love the Highway Patrol avatar. One of my favorite shows. This is 2150 out.

[WØTKX]

I'll join in the fun, time to change my avatar again. Ooh! Ooh!

[W4GPL]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Denver/comments/wy1o3/westboro_baptist_church_aurora_memorial/

[kf0rt]

And FWIW, I have a concealed carry permit -- and would have never considered (allowed by the theater or not) bringing a gun into a movie theater with me -- even after what happened on Thursday night. And even if I had a gun, given the scenario, I doubt I would have been able to use it without getting shot; nevermind the fact all the armor the guy was using.


My take on the CCW deal in CO... And I'm not anti-gun at all; think I understand how it all works from both ends, and I lean pro-gun on this debate.

This will likely seem really flippant, but I've known a few guys with CCW permits and my impression is that the CCW permit for guys who like guns is a lot like the Extra Class is to guys who like ham radio. It's a hurdle to jump, and if you pass, it lends a bit of street cred with your buds. I've never met a person with a Colorado CCW permit that I didn't trust. But, I don't get out all that much.

Very few of these folks are the rent-a-cop whackers from what I've seen. More likely, they're long-time responsible hunters and target shooters and are reasonably qualified with firearms. The CCW is fun, but after a week or two, that gun in your shoulder holster gets pretty heavy and you start to realize that maybe wearing a coat when it's 100 degrees out just to hide your Glock from imaginary bandits is kinda stupid. It's a game of odds and nobody ever really wins this one. The ham parallels do exist, though. Even the gun world has it's KFM's, but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The Aurora situation is an aberration, I'm convinced, but it's becoming a bit too common. We're still doing memorials for Columbine, and that was 13 years ago now. How does society protect itself from a guy with a strong neuroscience education and a desire to kill? Or bored high schoolers that got wrapped up in their own neurosis? When the smart fuckers go off-grid, it might be time to stay home. Or, it might be time to start thinking about why this shit happens in the first place. None of this is the action of most gun owners in the U.S.

Terrorism? I don't think so. There were no political motives with Columbine, and there doesn't appear to be any with the Aurora shootings. Intelligent white guys with suburban upbringings did this. (Fuck you in advance, Rush). I think what we may be seeing is the result of simple disenfranchisement. Over the top reactions to life's expectations and the mentality that "I deserve better." Tell that shit to a coal miner.

Time will tell on the Aurora stuff, but I'm not ready to extrapolate this incident to society at-large. We're generally better than that.

Life is a bit of a bitch, and sometimes it's really sad.

It's kind of funny (not really)... In younger years, I recall the Boston Strangler, the Green River Killer and more recently even the BTK killer. There were more... The Zodiac and Son of Sam. Charles Manson and the Tate murders. Ted Bundy escaped from a Colorado prison and I think he killed about 30 women; blamed it on pornography.

Ain't the guns; it's all about the psychology...

[W4GPL]

I fully endorse Rob's comments. Very well said.

It is psychology and society, but while we're trying to fix those two things -- I'm worried about how easy it is for the next nut to get access to weapons that can seriously injure or kill almost 75 people.

[KC2UGV]

My take on the CCW deal in CO... And I'm not anti-gun at all; think I understand how it all works from both ends, and I lean pro-gun on this debate.

This will likely seem really flippant, but I've known a few guys with CCW permits and my impression is that the CCW permit for guys who like guns is a lot like the Extra Class is to guys who like ham radio. It's a hurdle to jump, and if you pass, it lends a bit of street cred with your buds. I've never met a person with a Colorado CCW permit that I didn't trust. But, I don't get out all that much.

Very few of these folks are the rent-a-cop whackers from what I've seen. More likely, they're long-time responsible hunters and target shooters and are reasonably qualified with firearms. The CCW is fun, but after a week or two, that gun in your shoulder holster gets pretty heavy and you start to realize that maybe wearing a coat when it's 100 degrees out just to hide your Glock from imaginary bandits is kinda stupid. It's a game of odds and nobody ever really wins this one. The ham parallels do exist, though. Even the gun world has it's KFM's, but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The Aurora situation is an aberration, I'm convinced, but it's becoming a bit too common. We're still doing memorials for Columbine, and that was 13 years ago now. How does society protect itself from a guy with a strong neuroscience education and a desire to kill? Or bored high schoolers that got wrapped up in their own neurosis? When the smart fuckers go off-grid, it might be time to stay home. Or, it might be time to start thinking about why this shit happens in the first place. None of this is the action of most gun owners in the U.S.

Terrorism? I don't think so. There were no political motives with Columbine, and there doesn't appear to be any with the Aurora shootings. Intelligent white guys with suburban upbringings did this. (Fuck you in advance, Rush). I think what we may be seeing is the result of simple disenfranchisement. Over the top reactions to life's expectations and the mentality that "I deserve better." Tell that shit to a coal miner.

Time will tell on the Aurora stuff, but I'm not ready to extrapolate this incident to society at-large. We're generally better than that.

Life is a bit of a bitch, and sometimes it's really sad.

It's kind of funny (not really)... In younger years, I recall the Boston Strangler, the Green River Killer and more recently even the BTK killer. There were more... The Zodiac and Son of Sam. Charles Manson and the Tate murders. Ted Bundy escaped from a Colorado prison and I think he killed about 30 women; blamed it on pornography.

Ain't the guns; it's all about the psychology...

99% agree with you. Except about it being an aberration. Maybe, actually acting is the aberration right now, but I don't see that as happening for very long.

[KG4CGC]

My take on the CCW deal in CO... And I'm not anti-gun at all; think I understand how it all works from both ends, and I lean pro-gun on this debate.

This will likely seem really flippant, but I've known a few guys with CCW permits and my impression is that the CCW permit for guys who like guns is a lot like the Extra Class is to guys who like ham radio. It's a hurdle to jump, and if you pass, it lends a bit of street cred with your buds. I've never met a person with a Colorado CCW permit that I didn't trust. But, I don't get out all that much.

Very few of these folks are the rent-a-cop whackers from what I've seen. More likely, they're long-time responsible hunters and target shooters and are reasonably qualified with firearms. The CCW is fun, but after a week or two, that gun in your shoulder holster gets pretty heavy and you start to realize that maybe wearing a coat when it's 100 degrees out just to hide your Glock from imaginary bandits is kinda stupid. It's a game of odds and nobody ever really wins this one. The ham parallels do exist, though. Even the gun world has it's KFM's, but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The Aurora situation is an aberration, I'm convinced, but it's becoming a bit too common. We're still doing memorials for Columbine, and that was 13 years ago now. How does society protect itself from a guy with a strong neuroscience education and a desire to kill? Or bored high schoolers that got wrapped up in their own neurosis? When the smart fuckers go off-grid, it might be time to stay home. Or, it might be time to start thinking about why this shit happens in the first place. None of this is the action of most gun owners in the U.S.

Terrorism? I don't think so. There were no political motives with Columbine, and there doesn't appear to be any with the Aurora shootings. Intelligent white guys with suburban upbringings did this. (Fuck you in advance, Rush). I think what we may be seeing is the result of simple disenfranchisement. Over the top reactions to life's expectations and the mentality that "I deserve better." Tell that shit to a coal miner.

Time will tell on the Aurora stuff, but I'm not ready to extrapolate this incident to society at-large. We're generally better than that.

Life is a bit of a bitch, and sometimes it's really sad.

It's kind of funny (not really)... In younger years, I recall the Boston Strangler, the Green River Killer and more recently even the BTK killer. There were more... The Zodiac and Son of Sam. Charles Manson and the Tate murders. Ted Bundy escaped from a Colorado prison and I think he killed about 30 women; blamed it on pornography.

Ain't the guns; it's all about the psychology...

Be careful how you raise your kids. Parents.

[kf0rt]

99% agree with you. Except about it being an aberration. Maybe, actually acting is the aberration right now, but I don't see that as happening for very long.


ab·er·ra·tion   [ab-uh-rey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun1.the act of departing from the right, normal, or usual course.

2.the act of deviating from the ordinary, usual, or normal type.

3.deviation from truth or moral rectitude.

4.mental irregularity or disorder, especially of a minor or temporary nature (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nature); lapse from a sound (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sound) mental state.





How can it be anything else?

[kf0rt]

Be careful how you raise your kids. Parents.

Wish I could agree more with this, but I've seen too many cases where parents were blindsided by the actions of their kids (not talking about mass murderers here; just in general). Parenting certainly plays a big role, but the equations are complex. From all outward appearances, Harris and Klebold had reasonably decent parents and the children of really shitty parents rarely go on to commit such atrocities. 24 year old PhD student with a degree in neuroscience? Graduated with honors? Up until last week, I'd be damn proud of that shit if I was his parent.

I keep thinking: none of these people had upbringings that were substantially different than my own (or any of us, I presume). So, what happened?

[KC2UGV]

ab·er·ra·tion

   [ab-uh-rey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun1.the act of departing from the right, normal, or usual course.

2.the act of deviating from the ordinary, usual, or normal type.

3.deviation from truth or moral rectitude.

4.mental irregularity or disorder, especially of a minor or temporary nature (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nature); lapse from a sound (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sound) mental state.





How can it be anything else?

I said the act of actually acting might be an aberration, however, those who are waiting to get pushed over the edge are not. And, I fear it wont be an aberration for long to actually act; with the rapid increase of the levels of hate.

[kf0rt]

I said the act of actually acting might be an aberration, however, those who are waiting to get pushed over the edge are not. And, I fear it wont be an aberration for long to actually act; with the rapid increase of the levels of hate.

Thanks for clarifying that. I fear you're right.

[KG4CGC]

Wish I could agree more with this, but I've seen too many cases where parents were blindsided by the actions of their kids (not talking about mass murderers here; just in general). Parenting certainly plays a big role, but the equations are complex. From all outward appearances, Harris and Klebold had reasonably decent parents and the children of really shitty parents rarely go on to commit such atrocities. 24 year old PhD student with a degree in neuroscience? Graduated with honors? Up until last week, I'd be damn proud of that shit if I was his parent.

I keep thinking: none of these people had upbringings that were substantially different than my own (or any of us, I presume). So, what happened?
Many parents are simply not equipped to deal with the psychological needs of a child or even able to recognize that a 3 year old has such needs.
But I hear ya.

[kf0rt]

Many parents are simply not equipped to deal with the psychological needs of a child or even able to recognize that a 3 year old has such needs.
But I hear ya.

Ain't that the truth...

[KG4NEL]

It is psychology and society, but while we're trying to fix those two things

I don't know if we can do anything consciously to "fix" society, but what does worry me is that we aren't doing enough to help individuals. To the rich, old white guys that make policy (party unimportant), mental health funding always seems like the first thing on the chopping block.


Be careful how you raise your kids. Parents.

Starting to make me glad I haven't reproduced yet :mrgreen:

[wa6mhz]

Ultraviolent Movies and Video games seem to be warping the youth these days. Some snap.

[KC2UGV]

Ultraviolent Movies and Video games seem to be warping the youth these days. Some snap.

Yep, it's video games. In the 90's we all walked around eating yellow pills, chasing ghosts, and listening to psychedelic and repetitive music.

[NQ6U]

Ultraviolent Movies and Video games seem to be warping the youth these days. Some snap.

That's a bit of an oversimplification, Pat, although I'll grant you that violent movies and video games aren't exactly helping matters. The only thing that's going to stop stuff like this is for Americans of all stripes to reconsider the society they've built and take steps to change it to something more humane.

[KG4NEL]

Yep, it's video games. In the 90's we all walked around eating yellow pills, chasing ghosts, and listening to psychedelic and repetitive music.

Well, ever seen a Deadmau5 show? :-P

[w2amr]

I'll join in the fun, time to change my avatar again. Ooh! Ooh!Now that is an oldie

[w2amr]

10-4 George. And I love the Highway Patrol avatar. One of my favorite shows. This is 2150 out.There is an over the air TV station in Philly that plays all the oldies.
http://www.antennatv.tv/

[W4GPL]

There is an over the air TV station in Philly that plays all the oldies.
http://www.antennatv.tv/They seem to be a nation wide thing, I've seen them on OTA in Orlando and Denver too.

[W5GA]

Ultraviolent Movies and Video games seem to be warping the youth these days. Some snap.
Most of the available data says that at least in the instance of video games, this is true.

[N7YA]

Considering all the other emotional push/pull, lack of compassion, rampant and very visible greed in society, financial breakdown and lack of future for the "kids these days", failed education system, and general indifference...i would have to say its a major cop out to blame video games. That sounds like too easy an excuse. If it does have an effect, its probably in the low, single digit percentile.

[W5GA]

Considering all the other emotional push/pull, lack of compassion, rampant and very visible greed in society, financial breakdown and lack of future for the "kids these days", failed education system, and general indifference...i would have to say its a major cop out to blame video games. That sounds like too easy an excuse. If it does have an effect, its probably in the low, single digit percentile.
http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2003/10/anderson.aspx

[X-Rated]

ab·er·ra·tion   [ab-uh-rey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun1.the act of departing from the right, normal, or usual course.

2.the act of deviating from the ordinary, usual, or normal type.

3.deviation from truth or moral rectitude.

4.mental irregularity or disorder, especially of a minor or temporary nature (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nature); lapse from a sound (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sound) mental state.





How can it be anything else?

We have ordinary regular aberrations in the Chicago area. So many little teens are shot. Since they are not wealthy movie goers, they don't get the media attention. But they are injured or killed by gun violence nonetheless.


ter·ror·ist   [ter-er-ist]
noun
...
2.
a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
....

LOL. The moviegoers were not frightened? If you think that, I would have to disagree from what I saw. I would call the guy a terrorist. But that is just me.

Besides the Conservatives or the NRA, who is talking about banning all the guns? I don't hear anyone, more than onesy twosies in the Congress calling for a full ban. I see nothing with enough steam to get it through committee. Please someone send references to this all-out ban that you speak about.

Who wants to be responsible? I see people clamoring that everyone should be able to have a gun, but I don't see anyone say that they would want people who are in the chain of possession to also have responsibilities for the crimes committed with the crimes subsequently committed. Who here would be in support of a constitutional amendment that would make the enablers liable in the crimes as well? LOL. I didn't think so.

[KC2UGV]

Who wants to be responsible? I see people clamoring that everyone should be able to have a gun, but I don't see anyone say that they would want people who are in the chain of possession to also have responsibilities for the crimes committed with the crimes subsequently committed. Who here would be in support of a constitutional amendment that would make the enablers liable in the crimes as well? LOL. I didn't think so.

Hell, we've passed a law shielding the enablers from legal action.

[KK4AMI]

I would like to know why the guy was able to exit through an emergency door and prop it open without an alarm going off and the theater lights going up? That alone could have deterred him

[X-Rated]

I would like to know why the guy was able to exit through an emergency door and prop it open without an alarm going off and the theater lights going up? That alone could have deterred him

The guy who is prepared to carry out a mass shooting rampage will be deterred by an alarm? Lawls. You owe me a new keyboard.

[KK4AMI]

The guy who is prepared to carry out a mass shooting rampage will be deterred by an alarm? Lawls. You owe me a new keyboard.

Well everybody would have exited the theater because of the fire alarm while he was busy putting on his costume and ammo. They would have seen him sooner with the lights on. Although I have to admit if I saw a guy come in with a tactical vest, gas mask and four guns, I wonder how long it would take me to process the fact that "Hey, he's dangerous, he might shoot me?"

[X-Rated]

Well everybody would have exited the theater because of the fire alarm while he was busy putting on his costume and ammo. They would have seen him sooner with the lights on. Although I have to admit if I saw a guy come in with a tactical vest, gas mask and four guns, I wonder how long it would take me to process the fact that "Hey, he's dangerous, he might shoot me?"

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/19621384/Colorado-State-commit-Zack-Golditch-wounded-in-Aurora-shooting

We know that your scenario is not true.


...Everyone just thought they were firecrackers so we turned back to the movie, and that's when my ears started ringing and I fell on my friend."

People don't go to the movies to expect a shooter. They go to watch a movie, silly.

[X-Rated]

6540

Did he borrow all that money? Did he receive the equipment on store credit? I mean it is obvious he acted alone. Most unemployed students who are penniless can obtain massive amounts of weapons with no assistance. Am I right?

[NY3V]

6540

Did he borrow all that money? Did he receive the equipment on store credit? I mean it is obvious he acted alone. Most unemployed students who are penniless can obtain massive amounts of weapons with no assistance. Am I right?

Could it have come from a cut-out for the Cock Bros.?

Did they also hire the CIA hypnotist trained where Oswald's, Sirhan's, & Ray's were?

[K8LET]

6540

Did he borrow all that money? Did he receive the equipment on store credit? I mean it is obvious he acted alone. Most unemployed students who are penniless can obtain massive amounts of weapons with no assistance. Am I right?

Well, when you're not worried about paying off your credit card bills or accounting for grant money..

[X-Rated]

Well, when you're not worried about paying off your credit card bills or accounting for grant money..

Good point. There is a friend here who needs some serious cash to cover his medical expenses. If all of us blew off our credit card bills, we could each generate $20,000 to help him out and, ...

Wait a minute. $20,000 in 3 months for credit card bills? Wow.

[W4GPL]

*shrug* He could have a modest trust or something from a dead grandparent.. maybe went to JD Wentworth, cashed it out..

[W5GA]

6540

Did he borrow all that money? Did he receive the equipment on store credit? I mean it is obvious he acted alone. Most unemployed students who are penniless can obtain massive amounts of weapons with no assistance. Am I right?
What's in your wallet? From the deluge of credit card apps my youngest got over the last 4 years, it would be pretty easy to have put all this on the plastic.

[N7YA]

http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2003/10/anderson.aspx


Ok, Good points....and i raise you one.

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html

http://mommymythbuster.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/myth-14-video-games-encourage-violent-behavior/

http://tristanverboven.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/5-myths-about-video-games-busted/

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/05/10/video-games-dont-cause-children-to-be-violent

[ki4itv]

Looks like the judge just sealed the case, the stench is setting in.

[kf0rt]

$20K for an AR-15, a Remington 870 and two .40 Glocks? The guy got ripped off.

[PA5COR]

Add 6000 factory rounds....

[KC2UGV]

Well everybody would have exited the theater because of the fire alarm while he was busy putting on his costume and ammo. They would have seen him sooner with the lights on. Although I have to admit if I saw a guy come in with a tactical vest, gas mask and four guns, I wonder how long it would take me to process the fact that "Hey, he's dangerous, he might shoot me?"

They would have just thought he was an honest, armed citizen. After all, an armed society, is a polite society. First thought would have been, "Wow, this must be a really polite guy."

[W9WLS]

I have to wonder , how did a medical student who was on public assistance manage to afford the body armor and fire-arms and explosives he used ?
Next question is , WHO supplied him and WHY ?

I can see the "ANTI-GUN" nut's going wild over this one !

[KC2UGV]

I have to wonder , how did a medical student who was on public assistance manage to afford the body armor and fire-arms and explosives he used ?

I don't think he was on public assistance. But, credit cards are a pretty easy answer. If I didn't care about paying my bill next month, I could drop $30K tonight on guns and ammo, just by dropping my amex on the table.



Next question is , WHO supplied him and WHY ?


Who is "Reputable" gun dealers. Why is "to make as much money as possible".



I can see the "ANTI-GUN" nut's going wild over this one !

I'm not really seeing that. In fact, the first things I heard were from the pro-gun people saying "If only everyone in that theater was packing..."

[X-Rated]

I have to wonder , how did a medical student who was on public assistance manage to afford the body armor and fire-arms and explosives he used ?
Next question is , WHO supplied him and WHY ?

I can see the "ANTI-GUN" nut's going wild over this one !

Bu..But...But... The anti-gun nuts already said he acted alone.

[kf0rt]

I have to wonder , how did a medical student who was on public assistance manage to afford the body armor and fire-arms and explosives he used ?

He had a paid research position with the school he was attending up until last month sometime.


Next question is , WHO supplied him and WHY ?

Guns were purchased locally from Gander Mtn. and Bass Pro Shops. Ammo and armor were purchased from reputable online shops.


I can see the "ANTI-GUN" nut's going wild over this one !

Corey means well. :lol:

[X-Rated]

... Ammo and armor were purchased from reputable online shops.... :lol:

Who sells to mass murderers.

[X-Rated]

What's in your wallet? From the deluge of credit card apps my youngest got over the last 4 years, it would be pretty easy to have put all this on the plastic.

Enablers. Great point.

[kf0rt]

Who sells to mass murderers.

So, it's their fault?

[X-Rated]

So, it's their fault?

Are you claiming responsibility? You know who has responsibility? The survivors. They are the ones who's hopes and dreams of having and holding that special family member who made their life what it has been to this point. They are responsible for picking up the lousy pieces because cowards are not willing to hold anyone else who was at fault accountable. These cowards hide behind the same meaningless rhetoric of, "New laws won't change things", and use the retarded reasoning, "There will still be murders after all guns are banned". There will still be anything after anything is banned. The whole crux of the debate is fault and responsibility. Who has enabled? Who helped this to happen? The guy did not build an AR-15 from table scraps and kitchen utensils.

Look back through this thread. It has been said that the guy is off his rocker and no one had done anything about it and a "reputable" sales outfit online sells to crazy people and a dozen lost their lives and dozens more were injured and you think that this is good practice? Tell a survivor or family member this to their face. I dare you.

Ask John, IZE as to whether those associated with the criminal action should be sought out and killed. He is on here all the time talking about doing this very thing to brown skinned kids who are associated with crimes. Is this just a color thing? Are whites exempt?

[KC2UGV]

So, it's their fault?

Yes. Just like a neighborhood's crack problem is the fault of the users and dealers equally.

Seeing as a gun club was diligent enough to figure out he wasn't right in the head, you would at least expect the person selling the gun would do the same due diligence, right?

[X-Rated]

Yes. Just like a neighborhood's crack problem is the fault of the users and dealers equally.

Seeing as a gun club was diligent enough to figure out he wasn't right in the head, you would at least expect the person selling the gun would do the same due diligence, right?

This hits the funny bone in the gun nutter's argument. Responsibility. I seriously doubt that there is a one of us on this board who are not owners of firearms. None of us are anti-gun that I have seen. The gun-nutters want to make the strawman argument of a pro-gun/anti-gun debate because, well, it's a winnable strawman argument. What they don't want to face is responsibility. They claim that the guy is crazy and claim that he is responsible, but we know the courts do not hold crazy people responsible. Yeah, the courts. Remember those institutions set aside for making decisions by the US Constitution? We don't want to go against the Constitution now do we?

The dialog will end pretty much here when the cries of pity for the surviving victims and the survivors of the victims have been uttered and the exchange turns to responsibility. People remember the crazy people they exchange weapons with and sell to. They don't want to be reminded that they too can be enablers of these horrific crimes at any moment. They don't care that other people's right to life, liberty, or their pursuit of happiness has been cut short. They have a chip in their bluing that needs repaired and they don't want to be reminded. The concept that a "reputable" dealer would sell gear to a crazy person is a-ok in their books. You can look back and they already said their condolences for all involved in the rampage. Their responsibilities end there. It's all lip service.

[kf0rt]

Wow. You guys must have some pretty good crystal balls if you can "pick the nutball" out of a bunch of online orders.

Is there anything indicating that he was acting oddly when the guns were purchased? He passed all background checks and by all accounts the sales were legal.

Only solution is to ban all guns, right?

[kf0rt]

This hits the funny bone in the gun nutter's argument. Responsibility. I seriously doubt that there is a one of us on this board who are not owners of firearms. None of us are anti-gun that I have seen. The gun-nutters want to make the strawman argument of a pro-gun/anti-gun debate because, well, it's a winnable strawman argument. What they don't want to face is responsibility. They claim that the guy is crazy and claim that he is responsible, but we know the courts do not hold crazy people responsible. Yeah, the courts. Remember those institutions set aside for making decisions by the US Constitution? We don't want to go against the Constitution now do we?

The dialog will end pretty much here when the cries of pity for the surviving victims and the survivors of the victims have been uttered and the exchange turns to responsibility. People remember the crazy people they exchange weapons with and sell to. They don't want to be reminded that they too can be enablers of these horrific crimes at any moment. They don't care that other people's right to life, liberty, or their pursuit of happiness has been cut short. They have a chip in their bluing that needs repaired and they don't want to be reminded. The concept that a "reputable" dealer would sell gear to a crazy person is a-ok in their books. You can look back and they already said their condolences for all involved in the rampage. Their responsibilities end there. It's all lip service.

So, what's YOUR answer to it, Jerry?

[X-Rated]

Wow. You guys must have some pretty good crystal balls if you can "pick the nutball" out of a bunch of online orders.

Is there anything indicating that he was acting oddly when the guns were purchased? He passed all background checks and by all accounts the sales were legal.

Only solution is to ban all guns, right?

Person "A" sells military style gear to person "B" who is a crazy person. Whether it is over the internet, face to face, third party, butt cheek to butt cheek, or whatever. Tell me whether this is a good idea.

[KC2UGV]

Wow. You guys must have some pretty good crystal balls if you can "pick the nutball" out of a bunch of online orders.


Ok, so why are we allowed to hop online, and buy guns; but we can't hop online and buy Hydrochloric acid? Or, 95% Nicotine solution?



Is there anything indicating that he was acting oddly when the guns were purchased? He passed all background checks and by all accounts the sales were legal.


Yep. All sales were legal, and all dealers followed the letter of the law. But, somehow, by magic, the gun club president figured out,"This boy aint right..."

Do you think, if maybe, just maybe, dealers weren't shielded from responsibility, they'd try harder to make sure they weren't selling to a nutjob?



Only solution is to ban all guns, right?

Who is saying that?

[X-Rated]

So, what's YOUR answer to it, Jerry?

Make enablers responsible. It's just that simple. The de facto responsible parties are the survivors. The children, parents, spouses, and the caretakers. Is that fair? They had nothing to do with enabling their loved one's killer, but they are responsible for fixing up their lives and making what they can from the nothingness of a void left in their lives.

That is my answer. You have a better one other than leaving the victim's survivors to be left responsible? The shooter damn sure isn't responsible.

[X-Rated]

So, what's YOUR answer to it, Jerry?

John, IZE, has made remarks that defends the practice of attacking entire villages of the perps origin. A portion of our tax dollar goes to this action in far away lands. There are many ideas out there.

[NA4BH]

Just heard on the scanner that an "EX" police officer is out and about with body armor, automatic rifle, two Glocks. Sounds just like the Colorado "M.O.". Didn't hear the full transmission, but they are hunting him right now. I hope there isn't a film at eleven.

[X-Rated]

Just heard on the scanner that an "EX" police officer is out and about with body armor, automatic rifle, two Glocks. Sounds just like the Colorado "M.O.". Didn't hear the full transmission, but they are hunting him right now. I hope there isn't a film at eleven.

Well, the thread has turned to mocking the victims of Aurora. How sad.

[kf0rt]

Person "A" sells military style gear to person "B" who is a crazy person. Whether it is over the internet, face to face, third party, butt cheek to butt cheek, or whatever. Tell me whether this is a good idea.

Not a good idea.

Next question: Where do you draw the line on due diligence? The guy passed all legal requirements for ownership, including an FBI background check. (It's my understanding that Colorado defers all firearm purchase background checks to the Feds these days.)

We should now be able to sue the FBI over this, right? THEY let this madman buy guns! THEY held the final legal check on the deal. WE trusted THEM. Really, where do you draw the line?

And what about the gas station where he bought all the gas for his apartment? Same standards there?

See, this is why I hate firearms discussions. They go around and around and over the same shit everybody's been saying for the last millennium. It's predictable.

Without guns, he could have just used a bomb and it would have likely been worse.
Cars kill more people and we don't do anything about that.
Why does anybody need an assault rifle?

Feel free to add your own -- there's plenty more and I'm sure everybody here has heard them all.

Fact is, you can't (CAN. NOT.) protect against shit like this without lowering society as a whole. How far you wanna take it? Freedom, as it turns out, ain't free.

[kf0rt]

Make enablers responsible. It's just that simple. The de facto responsible parties are the survivors. The children, parents, spouses, and the caretakers. Is that fair? They had nothing to do with enabling their loved one's killer, but they are responsible for fixing up their lives and making what they can from the nothingness of a void left in their lives.

That is my answer. You have a better one other than leaving the victim's survivors to be left responsible? The shooter damn sure isn't responsible.

Nope. That's holding responsible owners responsible for the actions of a few.

"Enablers?" Sounds like a bad episode of Dr. Drew. (Sorry, but that's how I feel about that.)

[X-Rated]

Not a good idea.

Next question: Where do you draw the line on due diligence? The guy passed all legal requirements for ownership, including an FBI background check. (It's my understanding that Colorado defers all firearm purchase background checks to the Feds these days.)

We should now be able to sue the FBI over this, right? THEY let this madman buy guns! THEY held the final legal check on the deal. WE trusted THEM. Really, where do you draw the line?

And what about the gas station where he bought all the gas for his apartment? Same standards there?

See, this is why I hate firearms discussions. They go around and around and over the same shit everybody's been saying for the last millennium. It's predictable.

Without guns, he could have just used a bomb and it would have likely been worse.
Cars kill more people and we don't do anything about that.
Why does anybody need an assault rifle?

Feel free to add your own -- there's plenty more and I'm sure everybody here has heard them all.

Fact is, you can't (CAN. NOT.) protect against shit like this without lowering society as a whole. How far you wanna take it? Freedom, as it turns out, ain't free.

Answer me this with a simple answer as your simple question. With laws in place to give actionable prosecutable options to prosecutors, what will be the court's decision?

[KJ3N]

I seriously doubt that there is a one of us on this board who are not owners of firearms.

Hello. :welcome:

Never assume. Make ass out of u and me.


None of us are anti-gun that I have seen.

I'm anti "no regulations at all". Unfettered access just because you have a pulse and can fog a mirror, is not a good thing IMHO.

I want background checks.
I want a waiting period.
I want to ban guns in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol. Alcohol, testosterone, and firearms... what could possibly go wrong? :roll:
I have a big problem with people packing everywhere, especially around me. Guns make me very uncomfortable, even when it's a LEO.
Why would a hunter need armor-piercing rounds? When was the last time you saw a deer with a bullet-proof vest on?
What does a hunter need with an assault rifle? Does he really need 10 of them? 20?

[X-Rated]

Nope. That's holding responsible owners responsible for the actions of a few.

"Enablers?" Sounds like a bad episode of Dr. Drew. (Sorry, but that's how I feel about that.)

So you say that we need to stay with the de facto responsible parties and make those who have nothing to do with the attacks responsible for the actions of the killer.

By not deciding, you have already made a decision.

[X-Rated]

Hello. :welcome:

Never assume. Make ass out of u and me.
...

LOL. Okay you got me there. Well, there is no one amongst us who maintains a low SWR antenna who does not own a firearm. Better?

[NA4BH]

Well, the thread has turned to mocking the victims of Aurora. How sad.

Please tell me how my post was mocking the victims?

[NA4BH]

LOL. Okay you got me there. Well, there is no one amongst us who maintains a low SWR antenna who does not own a firearm. Better?

I don't.

[X-Rated]

Please tell me how my post was mocking the victims?

Equating something you supposedly heard on the scanner with the real life terror that dozens of people faced last week. Big joke. Ha Ha.

[NA4BH]

Equating something you supposedly heard on the scanner with the real life terror that dozens of people faced last week. Big joke. Ha Ha.

I'm glad you are here listening to the scanner. Whatever.

[X-Rated]

I don't.

No BB guns? No pellet rifles? I stand corrected then.

[NA4BH]

No BB guns? No pellet rifles? I stand corrected then.

No nothing. You sure do jump to conclusions rather fast.

[X-Rated]

No nothing. You sure do jump to conclusions rather fast.

By being incorrect, my argument is only stronger. By being incorrect that we are all owners of firearms, my point can be made that even though there are some who are not firearm owners here, there are still none who are calling for a full ban of firearms.

[KB3LAZ]

Yep, it's video games. In the 90's we all walked around eating yellow pills, chasing ghosts, and listening to psychedelic and repetitive music.

I thought that was the 60s?

[KJ3N]

LOL. Okay you got me there. Well, there is no one amongst us who maintains a low SWR antenna who does not own a firearm. Better?

No firearm, and my tuner keeps my SWR nice and low. Try again. :neener:

[KB3LAZ]

By the way...i answered all the questions inside the post (with arrows) because i havent figured out how to break it up. Im sure its very simple, i just never figured it out. So....see above.

[/QUOTE] Tags between the paragraphs that you want to split.

[KC2UGV]

Nope. That's holding responsible owners responsible for the actions of a few.

"Enablers?" Sounds like a bad episode of Dr. Drew. (Sorry, but that's how I feel about that.)

How about holding dealers who pump guns onto the street as fast as possible, without a care for the ramifications, accountable?

If a gun club president was able to determine,"Well, that boy aint right..." why should we not expect the person selling the gun to perform the same due diligence?

We expect chemical supply warehouses to do it.
We expect car salesman to do it.
We expect nuclear material manufacturers to do it.

What if every market out there worked on a principal of,"Hey man, I just sold it... I didn't make the the guy drive off the lot drunk! The car worked just as it was supposed to!" Or, "Man, I just sold him the 3 molar acid, I didn't make the guy dump in on the receptionist' face! It did exactly what it was supposed to do!"

[KC2UGV]

I thought that was the 60s?

So, video games reflected reality :)

[KB3LAZ]

So, video games reflected reality :)

Not the ones I play. That is, unless you believe in Greek mythology. =P

[X-Rated]

How about holding dealers who pump guns onto the street as fast as possible, without a care for the ramifications, accountable?

If a gun club president was able to determine,"Well, that boy aint right..." why should we not expect the person selling the gun to perform the same due diligence?

We expect chemical supply warehouses to do it.
We expect car salesman to do it.
We expect nuclear material manufacturers to do it.

What if every market out there worked on a principal of,"Hey man, I just sold it... I didn't make the the guy drive off the lot drunk! The car worked just as it was supposed to!" Or, "Man, I just sold him the 3 molar acid, I didn't make the guy dump in on the receptionist' face! It did exactly what it was supposed to do!"

I had never see another post on this board that calls for the impeachment or resignation or anything of Eric Holder. Sheesh.

[NA4BH]

Equating something you supposedly heard on the scanner with the real life terror that dozens of people faced last week. Big joke. Ha Ha.

Here's what I "supposedly" heard on the scanner this morning. http://annistonstar.com/bookmark/19539947

I'll get my hearing checked.

[X-Rated]

Here's what I "supposedly" heard on the scanner this morning. http://annistonstar.com/bookmark/19539947

I'll get my hearing checked.

You heard on the scanner that there was a murder? I missed seeing that point originally. I will get my vision checked.

[NA4BH]

You heard on the scanner that there was a murder? I missed seeing that point originally. I will get my vision checked.

Whatever dude. Take a valium or something, you seem a little agitated today.

[N7YA]

Tags between the paragraphs that you want to split.[/QUOTE]


Thanks, Trav!

[kf0rt]

Answer me this with a simple answer as your simple question. With laws in place to give actionable prosecutable options to prosecutors, what will be the court's decision?

"Not guilty by reason of insanity." A little early yet, but right now, I'd bet on that for his defense and the verdict.

[N7YA]

So, video games reflected reality :)


I only play hockey games, yet i dont aspire to be a hockey player....and tower defense games, dont know how i would pull that one off.

[X-Rated]

"Not guilty by reason of insanity." A little early yet, but right now, I'd bet on that for his defense and the verdict.

I am sorry I did not make my statement clear.

Let's go back for a moment.


Next question: Where do you draw the line on due diligence? The guy passed all legal requirements for ownership, including an FBI background check. (It's my understanding that Colorado defers all firearm purchase background checks to the Feds these days.)

I answered your question with a question.
Answer me this with a simple answer as your simple question. With laws in place to give actionable prosecutable options to prosecutors, what will be the court's decision? Assuming there is a constitutional amendment that gives prosecutors the ability to bring suit against those who provide weaponry and armor to those who commit heinous crimes, in all cases what will the courts decide? The answer is, who knows? That will be decided on a case by case basis. I sure don't know ahead of time what the prosecutors will bring up and I do not know how any given court will rule. But I do know that so called "responsible" dealers will be more responsible.

I see that you are going with the insanity verdict. I am saying that someone should be held responsible besides the victims and the families of the victims. That is where I see that we part ways.

[kf0rt]

So you say that we need to stay with the de facto responsible parties and make those who have nothing to do with the attacks responsible for the actions of the killer.

By not deciding, you have already made a decision.

No. What I'm saying is that the "someone must pay" philosophy may not work best for society in all cases (careful what you wish for because just getting out of bed in the morning implies SOME risk).

You going to hold the kid that licked the stamps shipping those vests responsible? How about UPS for delivering it? For MURDER? Really? Well, they ARE enablers, right? Dollars to doughnuts, the same outfits that supplied the vests and ammo also have a lot of LEO customers. I guess we could try to legislate a solution -- think that'll work? I don't.

This reminds me of the old 60's line of thinking that marijuana leads to heroin (the reply to that was always that mother's milk leads to it ALL, so...).

I got an idea. The real defective in this story is the shooter. Let's send the fucking bill to God.

[X-Rated]

No. What I'm saying is that the "someone must pay" philosophy may not work best for society in all cases (careful what you wish for because just getting out of bed in the morning implies SOME risk).

You going to hold the kid that licked the stamps shipping those vests responsible? How about UPS for delivering it? For MURDER? Really? Well, they ARE enablers, right? Dollars to doughnuts, the same outfits that supplied the vests and ammo also have a lot of LEO customers. I guess we could try to legislate a solution -- think that'll work? I don't.

This reminds me of the old 60's line of thinking that marijuana leads to heroin (the reply to that was always that mother's milk leads to it ALL, so...).

I got an idea. The real defective in this story is the shooter. Let's send the fucking bill to God.

Your ramblings are meaningless. You do nothing but strawman arguments here. I have said nothing of holding anyone in particular responsible. I am leaving it open for the courts to decide. If the kid licking the stamps has responsibility and knows the person on the other end of the delivery line is a whack job, I think that should be actionable for some prosecutorial discretion. Should a kid who licks stamps be immune from any prosecution, ever? I can strawman too.

[kf0rt]

I answered your question with a question. Assuming there is a constitutional amendment that gives prosecutors the ability to bring suit against those who provide weaponry and armor to those who commit heinous crimes, in all cases what will the courts decide? The answer is, who knows? That will be decided on a case by case basis. I sure don't know ahead of time what the prosecutors will bring up and I do not know how any given court will rule. But I do know that so called "responsible" dealers will be more responsible.

I see what you mean now. I don't want to sound like I'm dodging the question, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet that holding suppliers responsible will never gain any real traction unless their product is defective. Interferes with commerce, and we all know how important that is. More than that, it interferes with the freedom to do many of the "adult" things many of us enjoy. Are you ready for the "squeaky clean" world you're inviting?


I see that you are going with the insanity verdict. I am saying that someone should be held responsible besides the victims and the families of the victims. That is where I see that we part ways.

That'd be nice. Doesn't always work out that way, though. Like I said, put the bill for this one on God's tab.

[kf0rt]

Your ramblings are meaningless. You do nothing but strawman arguments here. I have said nothing of holding anyone in particular responsible. I am leaving it open for the courts to decide. If the kid licking the stamps has responsibility and knows the person on the other end of the delivery line is a whack job, I think that should be actionable for some prosecutorial discretion. Should a kid who licks stamps be immune from any prosecution, ever? I can strawman too.

The entire gun debate is one strawman after another. Has been since the dawn of time.

Okay. Let's say (into hypothetical strawmen now!) Corey's "worst law thing in the world" is rescinded and you can now go after a firearms dealer just like you can go after a bar that served someone who was drunk.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, who are you seeing on the firearms side that was culpable?

[KB3LAZ]

Tags between the paragraphs that you want to split.


Thanks, Trav!

Erm..I had just woke up when I wrote that. That will only work after the initial quote tag. After that you will have to put a Quote tag before the paragraph and an end quote tag after the paragraph. ...You get the picture.

[X-Rated]

The entire gun debate is one strawman after another. Has been since the dawn of time.

Okay. Let's say (into hypothetical strawmen now!) Corey's "worst law thing in the world" is rescinded and you can now go after a firearms dealer just like you can go after a bar that served someone who was drunk.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, who are you seeing on the firearms side that was culpable?

It is too early for me to know who should be held culpable. BUT...

1. It makes me want to puke to read this, "Oh dear me, I am so sorry for the victims, but, what are you going to do about it? They had it coming." crap.

2. Where are the Eric Holder naysayers arguing on my behalf? Why do they say it is a problem to sell firearms indiscriminately at one point, and in another instance, it is not okay when we know the buyers have crime on their minds?

I would never let a firearm be given or sold to someone I could not vouch for. Blaming it on the FBI who gives a report for the seller to use in their decision making should not excuse the person selling the gear from doing due diligence in determining the sanity of the buyer. Dealers should be given the option to deny sales. If not, how can you call them "reputable"? They are just making sales.

[KC2UGV]

...I guess we could try to legislate a solution -- think that'll work? I don't.
...

And, I don't think legislating it will fix anything. All we have to do is let civil trials and the free market figure it out. At this point, the gun industry enjoys special shielding from civil suits, that no other industry does.

If a car salesman let a drunk guy drive off the lot, he'd be sued. If a gun dealer sells 4 guns, and 6000 rounds to a crazed person, he'd be "Well, the sale was legal, and we followed every law."

[KC2UGV]

...Dealers should be given the option to deny sales. If not, how can you call them "reputable"? They are just making sales.

They are given the option, and they choose to make as much money as possible, since they are shielded from any responsibility of their actions.

[NQ6U]

Here's how to do it:



Thanks, Trav!

Your stuff here


Erm..I had just woke up when I wrote that. That will only work after the initial quote tag. After that you will have to put a Quote tag before the paragraph and an end quote tag after the paragraph. ...You get the picture.

More of your stuff here.

----

In the end, it should look like this:


Thanks, Trav!

Your stuff here


Erm..I had just woke up when I wrote that. That will only work after the initial quote tag. After that you will have to put a Quote tag before the paragraph and an end quote tag after the paragraph. ...You get the picture.

More of your stuff here.

[kf0rt]

1. It makes me want to puke to read this, "Oh dear me, I am so sorry for the victims, but, what are you going to do about it? They had it coming." crap.

2. Where are the Eric Holder naysayers arguing on my behalf? Why do they say it is a problem to sell firearms indiscriminately at one point, and in another instance, it is not okay when we know the buyers have crime on their minds?

I would never let a firearm be given or sold to someone I could not vouch for. Blaming it on the FBI who gives a report for the seller to use in their decision making should not excuse the person selling the gear from doing due diligence in determining the sanity of the buyer. Dealers should be given the option to deny sales. If not, how can you call them "reputable"? They are just making sales.

Well, I hope I haven't given any impression that "they had it coming" is any part of the equation. Isn't for me, anyway.

I do see it as unrealistic to expect a merchant to make findings on a person's sanity. Maybe it's real obvious in some cases, but how many cases are there? A local TV station here sent a reporter to one of the same stores Holmes used and bought the same gun (the AR-15). They did the hidden cam thing. Reporter asked a few "interesting" questions like where he could get high capacity magazines. Kind of raised an eyebrow with the guy behind the counter. Background check run and he was out the door with his AR-15 in about a half hour (about the time it takes to do the BG check).

It almost seems to me we're expecting people to be mind readers. How much time does it take to judge someone's sanity, and are many of us even qualified to do that? Doubt I am.

No easy answers...

[WX7P]

It's time for a dose of reality from Jason Alexander.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112608/-You-MUST-Read-This-Jason-Alexander-on-Aurora

[kf0rt]

It's time for a dose of reality from Jason Alexander.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112608/-You-MUST-Read-This-Jason-Alexander-on-Aurora


"Guns are only for killing people."

Yawn.

Next.

[X-Rated]

It's time for a dose of reality from Jason Alexander.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112608/-You-MUST-Read-This-Jason-Alexander-on-Aurora


Lastly, there are these well-intended realists that say that people like this evil animal would get these weapons even if we regulated them. And they may be right. But he wouldn't have strolled down the road to Kmart and picked them up. Regulated, he would have had to go to illegal sources - sources that could possibly be traced, watched, overseen. Or he would have to go deeper online and those transactions could be monitored. "Hm, some guy in Aurora is buying guns, tons of ammo and kevlar - plus bomb-making ingredients and tear gas. Maybe we should check that out."

But that won't happen as long as all that activity is legal and unrestricted.

...

SO WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THEM? WHY DO YOU NOT, AT LEAST, AGREE TO SIT WITH REASONABLE PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES AND ASK HARD QUESTIONS AND LOOK AT HARD STATISTICS AND POSSIBLY MAKE SOME COMPROMISES FOR THE GREATER GOOD? SO THAT MOTHERS AND FATHERS AND CHILDREN ARE NOT SLAUGHTERED QUITE SO EASILY BY THESE MONSTERS? HOW CAN IT HURT TO STOP DEFENDING THESE THINGS AND AT LEAST CONSIDER HOW WE CAN ALL WORK TO TRY TO PREVENT ANOTHER DAY LIKE YESTERDAY?

We will not prevent every tragedy. We cannot stop every maniac. But we certainly have done ourselves no good by allowing these particular weapons to be acquired freely by just about anyone.

...

But this is not the time for reasonable people, on both sides of this issue, to be silent. We owe it to the people whose lives were ended and ruined yesterday to insist on a real discussion and hopefully on some real action.

In conclusion, whoever you are and wherever you stand on this issue, I hope you have the joy of family with you today. Hold onto them and love them as best you can. Tell them what they mean to you. Yesterday, a whole bunch of them went to the movies and tonight their families are without them. Every day is precious. Every life is precious. Take care. Be well. Be safe. God bless.

He could have built a whole house hitting so many nails on the head.

[X-Rated]

"Guns are only for killing people."

Yawn.

Next.

Strawman. That's not what he said.

[KC2UGV]

Well, I hope I haven't given any impression that "they had it coming" is any part of the equation. Isn't for me, anyway.

I do see it as unrealistic to expect a merchant to make findings on a person's sanity. Maybe it's real obvious in some cases, but how many cases are there? A local TV station here sent a reporter to one of the same stores Holmes used and bought the same gun (the AR-15). They did the hidden cam thing. Reporter asked a few "interesting" questions like where he could get high capacity magazines. Kind of raised an eyebrow with the guy behind the counter. Background check run and he was out the door with his AR-15 in about a half hour (about the time it takes to do the BG check).


Raised an eyebrow, but they were more than happy to sell it...



It almost seems to me we're expecting people to be mind readers. How much time does it take to judge someone's sanity, and are many of us even qualified to do that? Doubt I am.


Not expecting people to be mind readers. Just to do due diligence. Like the gun club president did, who refused his membership because,"Well, that boy ain't right."



No easy answers...

There's tons of easy answers. None that can get the NRA to approve, since their only goal is to aid the gun industry in funneling as many guns onto the street as possible.

Who wins in an arms race? The arms dealer.

[KC2UGV]

"Guns are only for killing people."

Yawn.

Next.

Hardly what he said.

He said an assault right is designed not for sport, but for the efficient killing of people, and intended to be in a trained, and disciplined hand. And, not something to be picked up at KMart.

[KB3LAZ]

"Guns are only for killing people."

Yawn.

Next.

o.0 I have been using mine all wrong.

[N1LAF]

If a car salesman let a drunk guy drive off the lot, he'd be sued. If a gun dealer sells 4 guns, and 6000 rounds to a crazed person, he'd be "Well, the sale was legal, and we followed every law."

Stupid comparison, false equivalency in fact. If the person driving off was not drunk, there is no issue, is there...

[X-Rated]

o.0 I have been using mine all wrong.

Rob makes the rules around here. Better do as he says.

[N1LAF]

Rob makes the rules around here. Better do as he says.

Be kind to Rob, because he is just speaking his opinion, and has NEVER abused his position, just like you. Everyone knows this.

[WX7P]

"Guns are only for killing people."

Yawn.

Next.

You're better than that, Rob.

Alexander is talking about the AR-15, which IS only designed to kill people. He's not talking about sport hunting rifles or target shooting. What's wrong with you? Lost your reading comprehension?

His point is well taken. It's a real leap to go from "well regulated militia" to full blown all guns all the time. The fact that a military assault weapon is available to the general public is just WRONG. Period.

What next? Bazookas? Just so some yahoo can get his rocks off destroying 1975 Pontiacs?

Let's get real here. True gun freaks crave power. A gun gives them power. Target shooting is one thing. Owning military weapons is another. It just shouldn't happen.

[X-Rated]

Be kind to Rob, because he is just speaking his opinion, and has NEVER abused his position, just like you. Everyone knows this.

Okay okay. His opinion is only "Guns are only for killing people." I get it already.

[kf0rt]

Rob makes the rules around here. Better do as he says.

Okay, NOW the shit's getting deep. :rofl:

[KC2UGV]

Stupid comparison, false equivalency in fact. If the person driving off was not drunk, there is no issue, is there...

No, it's the exact same comparison, in this case. "Drunk" = "He ain't right".

[kf0rt]

You're better than that, Rob.

Alexander is talking about the AR-15, which IS only designed to kill people. He's not talking about sport hunting rifles or target shooting. What's wrong with you? Lost your reading comprehension?

His point is well taken. It's a real leap to go from "well regulated militia" to full blown all guns all the time. The fact that a military assault weapon is available to the general public is just WRONG. Period.

What next? Bazookas? Just so some yahoo can get his rocks off destroying 1975 Pontiacs?

Let's get real here. True gun freaks crave power. A gun gives them power. Target shooting is one thing. Owning military weapons is another. It just shouldn't happen.

Sorry. I skimmed the article looking for something that would add the slightest scrap of anything new to the debate. Didn't find it. People target shoot with AR-15's all the time. Oh wait, it wasn't DESIGNED for that. Must be evil, my bad.

It's just made for killin' people
True gun freaks crave power
What next, Bazookas?

Sometimes it's hard to keep all the bad clichés lined up properly. I do try. ;)

[N1LAF]

No, it's the exact same comparison, in this case. "Drunk" = "He ain't right".

Define crazed. What are the symptoms. How does the unsuspecting dealer 'know' if a person is crazed? Foaming from the mouth?

Get real!

When are individuals are to be assumed responsible for their actions, and not blaming everyone else on the peripheral??

[KC2UGV]

Sorry. I skimmed the article looking for something that would add the slightest scrap of anything new to the debate. Didn't find it. People target shoot with AR-15's all the time. Oh wait, it wasn't DESIGNED for that. Must be evil, my bad.

It's just made for killin' people
True gun freaks crave power
What next, Bazookas?

Sometimes it's hard to keep all the bad clichés lined up properly. I do try. ;)

Oh, people target shoot with AR-type weapons all the time: They're called "Soldiers". And, they practice too...? Come on, help me out here, why do GI's spend a bunch of time shooting at pop-up targets behind berms?

[KC2UGV]

Define crazed. What are the symptoms. How does the unsuspecting dealer 'know' if a person is crazed? Foaming from the mouth?


The same way the president of the gun club determined that he wasn't right, and refused membership.



Get real!


Yes, let's.



When are individuals are to be assumed responsible for their actions, and not blaming everyone else on the peripheral??

I agree. Individuals should be assumed responsible for their actions, and not be shielded by laws protecting them from such. Which is why we need to rescind the law that prohibits gun dealers from being held responsible.

[X-Rated]

Define crazed. What are the symptoms. How does the unsuspecting dealer 'know' if a person is crazed? Foaming from the mouth?

Get real!

When are individuals are to be assumed responsible for their actions, and not blaming everyone else on the peripheral??

Define the neurological points to cut in brain surgery? My point being, if you know your job and can do it properly, then do it. If you don't know how to properly sell firearms, DON'T FUCKING DO IT. I am not into selling arms nor am I into brain surgery.

Get real.

[NQ6U]

Stupid comparison, false equivalency in fact. If the person driving off was not drunk, there is no issue, is there...

While I agree that Corey's post doesn't make a lot of sense, Paul, your response isn't any better. And, by the way, perhaps you should check out your own sig line now and again before you go tossing around the word "stupid."

[KB3LAZ]

Okay, NOW the shit's getting deep. :rofl:

:shock: That is normal in these kinds of threads, no? :snicker:

[N1LAF]

Whenever these things happen, you can see the jumping on the gun control bandwagon like fleas on a dog. But what about these events?

1. 9/11 and the >3000 murdered?
2. Unabomber?
3. Oklahoma bombing?
4. Drunk driving kills?

Gun control would have done squat for these incidents. Are you suggesting that we hold plane manufacturers, airports, fertilizer dealers responsible?? Automobile manufacturers and dealers? Where are you going to stop with the BS of blaming everyone but the individual perpetrator themselves??

[KB3LAZ]

Define the neurological points to cut in brain surgery? My point being, if you know your job and can do it properly, then do it. If you don't know how to properly sell firearms, DON'T FUCKING DO IT. I am not into selling arms nor am I into brain surgery.

Get real.

Awe, but preforming a lobotomy with a straw is fun.

[N1LAF]

While I agree that Corey's post doesn't make a lot of sense, Paul, your response isn't any better. And, by the way, perhaps you should check out your own sig line now and again before you go tossing around the word "stupid."

I called the comparison stupid, did not call Corey stupid, so I went after the comparison, not the person. There is a difference.

[N1LAF]

Define the neurological points to cut in brain surgery? My point being, if you know your job and can do it properly, then do it. If you don't know how to properly sell firearms, DON'T FUCKING DO IT. I am not into selling arms nor am I into brain surgery.

Get real.

Only that there is no way to prove that this character came across 'crazed'. Everyone who knew him would never have suspected anything, according to those that were interviewed.

[X-Rated]

I called the comparison stupid, did not call Corey stupid, so I went after the comparison, not the person. There is a difference.

And I was backing Rob's stance as well when you jumped onto me. I thought that backing someone as being in charge was a good thing. Sorry boss.

[X-Rated]

Only that there is no way to prove that this character came across 'crazed'. Everyone who knew him would never have suspected anything, according to those that were interviewed.

And we will never know without an investigation. We will remain ignorant on this subject.

[N1LAF]

And I was backing Rob's stance as well when you jumped onto me. I thought that backing someone as being in charge was a good thing. Sorry boss.

You are a good man, Jerry. Thanks.

[N1LAF]

And we will never know without an investigation. We will remain ignorant on this subject.

I am sure it is being investigated as we speak

[NQ6U]

I called the comparison stupid, did not call Corey stupid, so I went after the comparison, not the person. There is a difference.

Yes, I realize that, and I wouldn't have brought it up if it wasn't for the blatant hypocrisy of seeing your comment above that sig line.

Oh, and since you've said it's okay: Your reply to the comment you thought was stupid was stupid. It made no sense whatsoever.

[KC2UGV]

Whenever these things happen, you can see the jumping on the gun control bandwagon like fleas on a dog. But what about these events?

1. 9/11 and the >3000 murdered?
2. Unabomber?
3. Oklahoma bombing?
4. Drunk driving kills?

Gun control would have done squat for these incidents.

We're not talking about the above incidents, we're talking about this one incident.


Are you suggesting that we hold plane manufacturers, airports, fertilizer dealers responsible?? Automobile manufacturers and dealers? Where are you going to stop with the BS of blaming everyone but the individual perpetrator themselves??

No, we're talking about holding reckless arms dealers responsible for selling a weapon designed to kill in mass quantities, and do it without regard to who they're selling them too.


Only that there is no way to prove that this character came across 'crazed'. Everyone who knew him would never have suspected anything, according to those that were interviewed.

Except, the gun club president did, and refused him membership. That's just a club, can't we expect at least the same level of diligence with the person actually selling the gun?

[N1LAF]

Yes, I realize that, and I wouldn't have brought it up if it wasn't for the blatant hypocrisy of seeing your comment about that sig line.

Oh, and since you've said it's okay: Your reply to the comment you thought was stupid was stupid. It made no sense whatsoever.

Thanks, Carl...

[X-Rated]

Whenever these things happen, you can see the jumping on the gun control bandwagon like fleas on a dog. But what about these events?

1. 9/11 and the >3000 murdered?
2. Unabomber?
3. Oklahoma bombing?
4. Drunk driving kills?

Gun control would have done squat for these incidents. Are you suggesting that we hold plane manufacturers, airports, fertilizer dealers responsible?? Automobile manufacturers and dealers? Where are you going to stop with the BS of blaming everyone but the individual perpetrator themselves??

Not entirely true...

1. The FBI had intel that pegged these terrorists, but it was shit canned. While it may have nothing to do with gun bans you propose, the laws I propose have to do with the chain of responsibility and that would cover this situation.

2. Unabomber. Where was the anti-gun outcry over this sicko? Strawman.

3. Oklahoma bombing. DHS is considering restricting the sale of ammonium nitrate. I believe anhydrous ammonia is already restricted.

4. There are drunk driving laws and no they don't go far enough either.

We do hold fertilizer dealers responsible for their sales.

[K8LET]

Just want to point out that the gun club owner denied his membership because of the voicemail greeting he received when he called his apartment, not for anything he did in person. It's also much easier to tell if a person is drunk, you have slurred, speech the smell of booze on the breath, unsteady gait, etc.

I'm sure if the guy was giggling and talking about how he was the Joker when he went to buy the guns from the local stores they would have probably not sold to him. And if he was acting that way and they did sell to him, I would agree they would bear some responsibility.

[W5GA]

I would never let a firearm be given or sold to someone I could not vouch for. Blaming it on the FBI who gives a report for the seller to use in their decision making should not excuse the person selling the gear from doing due diligence in determining the sanity of the buyer. Dealers should be given the option to deny sales. If not, how can you call them "reputable"? They are just making sales.
And just how do you propose to enable these reputable dealers in pursuing due diligence? Making medical records available? Hippa law forbids that. Have them make a judgement call, especially in a case like this where the shooter is nearly a Ted Kazinski clone? Are you willing to pay the bill for their psychiatric degree?
If you want culpability, how about the parents that evidently knew something was wrong, and obviously did nothing.

[X-Rated]

The Department of Peace (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.808:)


(11) We are in a new millennium, and the time has come to review age-old challenges with new thinking wherein we can conceive of peace as not simply being the absence of violence, but the active presence of the capacity for a higher evolution of the human awareness, of respect, trust, and integrity; wherein we all may tap the infinite capabilities of humanity to transform consciousness and conditions which impel or compel violence at a personal, group, or national level toward developing a new understanding of, and a commitment to, compassion and love, in order to create a `shining city on a hill', the light of which is the light of nations.

Let me get my flack jacket on real fast here. :lol:

[X-Rated]

And just how do you propose to enable these reputable dealers in pursuing due diligence? Making medical records available? Hippa law forbids that. Have them make a judgement call, especially in a case like this where the shooter is nearly a Ted Kazinski clone? Are you willing to pay the bill for their psychiatric degree?
If you want culpability, how about the parents that evidently knew something was wrong, and obviously did nothing.

If I want to be a limo driver, I may have to pay for my license, my insurance, my car, etc. Many many jobs require the employee to come out with a capital outlay and there are costs involved with doing business. If you don't want to pay to play, DON'T FUCKING DO IT!!!

[KC2UGV]

Just want to point out that the gun club owner denied his membership because of the voicemail greeting he received when he called his apartment, not for anything he did in person. It's also much easier to tell if a person is drunk, you have slurred, speech the smell of booze on the breath, unsteady gait, etc.

I'm sure if the guy was giggling and talking about how he was the Joker when he went to buy the guns from the local stores they would have probably not sold to him. And if he was acting that way and they did sell to him, I would agree they would bear some responsibility.

So, if the gun dealers called, and got his voice mail, they might have done the same, don't you think?

Shouldn't we expect gun dealers to do at least the same as a gun club president would do?


And just how do you propose to enable these reputable dealers in pursuing due diligence? Making medical records available? Hippa law forbids that. Have them make a judgement call, especially in a case like this where the shooter is nearly a Ted Kazinski clone? Are you willing to pay the bill for their psychiatric degree?
If you want culpability, how about the parents that evidently knew something was wrong, and obviously did nothing.

The free market has an uncanny way of taking care of things like this. We have credit scores, insurance ratings, Social Media scores, etc etc. An entire industry that does nothing by analyze risk...

However, we know have handicapped the free market, because no financial penalty can be levied against a dealer who sells willy-nilly to anyone who might pass a background check, even if they are acting odd at the time of purchase. Makes no sense, as there's no financial risk to do so, and only financial reward.

[K8LET]

So, if the gun dealers called, and got his voice mail, they might have done the same, don't you think?

Shouldn't we expect gun dealers to do at least the same as a gun club president would do?

The gun club president only called because Holmes contacted him via email. Had Holmes gone to the club in person, it's not unreasonable to suspect that the Gun Club President wouldn't have ever made that call and could very well have admitted him to the club.