View Full Version : Mass casualties in Denver (Aurora) area
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 03:47 PM
The gun club president only called because Holmes contacted him via email. Had Holmes gone to the club in person, it's not unreasonable to suspect that the Gun Club President wouldn't have ever made that call and could very well have admitted him to the club.
Right over your head.
K8LET
07-23-2012, 03:48 PM
Right over your head.
Elucidate me.
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 03:59 PM
Elucidate me.
Corey mentions this phone call that the gun club president made and rejected the membership based on the answering machine. Then we have the whiners who moan and groan, "Oh, how could anyone ever know how to tell if the person is worthy of being sold weaponry or apparatus?" These moaners have never heard of a phone call. They never heard of due diligence. How much due diligence is enough? Some is better than nothing in my books. Someone bantered that an internet dealer who sold flack jackets to a man who shot dozens of people is "reputable". The good Lord has forbidden his loved ones from being shot or terrorized, but that is who he blames.
Something as simple as a phone call could have quelled this sale and saved lives. But there was nothing in place to require that much. Too many are holding their heads screaming, "Oh, my brain hurts. How can we ever know anything at all? We are too stupid to pick up a damned phone."
K8LET
07-23-2012, 04:01 PM
Something as simple as a phone call could have quelled this sale and saved lives. But there was nothing in place to require that much. Too many are holding their heads screaming, "Oh, my brain hurts. How can we ever know anything at all? We are too stupid to pick up a damned phone."
Alright.. I don't understand. Why would someone make a phone call when the guy is standing right in front of them? I thought we were talking about gun dealers. The guns were sold in-person. Unless I am missing something....
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 04:04 PM
Alright.. I don't understand. Why would someone make a phone call when the guy is standing right in front of them? I thought we were talking about gun dealers. The guns were sold in-person. Unless I am missing something....
Why would anyone not want to sell to a potential mass murderer, you ask? Do you really need to ask that question? Seriously?
K8LET
07-23-2012, 04:07 PM
Why would anyone not want to sell to a potential mass murderer, you ask? Do you really need to ask that question? Seriously?
I... I don't even know how to respond to this.
If I'm standing in front of you, appearing completely normal and sane... you're going to call my home phone on the off chance my voicemail greeting might make me sound like a crazy person? I mean, I suppose we can regulate people to do that.. if you think it will help.
I only play hockey games, yet i dont aspire to be a hockey player....
Old joke: I was at a fight last night and a hockey game broke out.
Sorry. I skimmed the article looking for something that would add the slightest scrap of anything new to the debate. Didn't find it. People target shoot with AR-15's all the time. Oh wait, it wasn't DESIGNED for that. Must be evil, my bad.
It's just made for killin' people
True gun freaks crave power
What next, Bazookas?
Sometimes it's hard to keep all the bad clichés lined up properly. I do try. ;)
"Bad Cliches" is your nonsense. Reality is a different thing.
Yes, true gun freaks crave power, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Guns=Power to the feeble minded.
You are extrapolating that to mean I'm trashing ALL people who like guns. That far from the truth. N8YX is a responsible gun owner. He's not going to take out the Akron mulitplex.
Your condescending approach to this debate is NOT appreciated. Dial it back, please.
If I want to be a limo driver, I may have to pay for my license, my insurance, my car, etc. Many many jobs require the employee to come out with a capital outlay and there are costs involved with doing business. If you don't want to pay to play, DON'T FUCKING DO IT!!!
Just as gun dealers have to pay for their license, insurance etc. You were aware that they have to be licensed, right? Next strawman.
And in the meantime, the parents get a pass in your world, as does our entire mental health system. Gotcha.
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 04:35 PM
I... I don't even know how to respond to this.
If I'm standing in front of you, appearing completely normal and sane... you're going to call my home phone on the off chance my voicemail greeting might make me sound like a crazy person? I mean, I suppose we can regulate people to do that.. if you think it will help.
If you are not looking for issues, you will not find any. Pretty simple concept. I don't know how to explain it any better.
Also, there is a thing called an internet. It can be used to collect data such as the gun club president's findings on a person and that could become a statistic on a database. Kinda like a credit report.
I know that will get met with resistance. Saving lives and all.
"Bad Cliches" is your nonsense. Reality is a different thing.
Yes, true gun freaks crave power, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Guns=Power to the feeble minded.
You are extrapolating that to mean I'm trashing ALL people who like guns. That far from the truth. N8YX is a responsible gun owner. He's not going to take out the Akron mulitplex.
Your condescending approach to this debate is NOT appreciated. Dial it back, please.
Heed your own advice, Janet.
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 04:39 PM
Just as gun dealers have to pay for their license, insurance etc. You were aware that they have to be licensed, right? Next strawman.
And in the meantime, the parents get a pass in your world, as does our entire mental health system. Gotcha.
I did not realize that by the dealers paying for a license that this would diminish the possibilities of selling weaponry to potential mass murderers. (remember that that is the goal here? Or are you on the "Ban all guns" bandwagon?)
KB3LAZ
07-23-2012, 04:42 PM
If you are not looking for issues, you will not find any. Pretty simple concept. I don't know how to explain it any better.
Also, there is a thing called an internet. It can be used to collect data such as the gun club president's findings on a person and that could become a statistic on a database. Kinda like a credit report.
I know that will get met with resistance. Saving lives and all.
Prolong, there is no saving. Humanity is doomed. parasitic lot, the human race.
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 04:44 PM
Heed your own advice, Janet.
Should Janet have said "Pretty please with sugar on it?" Wasn't "please" enough?
I did not realize that by the dealers paying for a license that this would diminish the possibilities of selling weaponry to potential mass murderers. (remember that that is the goal here? Or are you on the "Ban all guns" bandwagon?)
Please tell me how to identify a mass murderer in the 15 minutes I would have to do so at a gun store. What are all the character traits involved? Is it beady eyes, or the high forehead? How would you have identified Ted Bundy if he walked up to you at a bus stop and struck up a conversation? Same for McVeigh?
And again, tell me all about the parents culpability, will you?
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 04:46 PM
... parasitic lot...
Like an old Azden. Lots of parasitics.
ad4mg
07-23-2012, 04:47 PM
Rob makes the rules around here. Better do as he says.
For fuck's sake, that's piss weak. Just fire off on any member of the staff who wants to join the discussion.
You've been rather pissy today, or that's the impression I get. You need more envelopes or something?
Heed your own advice, Janet.
Heed your own advice, Janet.
Was I talking to you, Doug? That would be no.
I don't give a shit if you own firearms. I don't think people should own MILITARY firearms. Period.
I'm not a gun hater. I just don't think that guns an ammunition should be as available as they were for this Holmes clown.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 04:48 PM
Please tell me how to identify a mass murderer in the 15 minutes I would have to do so at a gun store. What are all the character traits involved? Is it beady eyes, or the high forehead? How would you have identified Ted Bundy if he walked up to you at a bus stop and struck up a conversation? Same for McVeigh?
And again, tell me all about the parents culpability, will you?
Tell me how to diagnose a brain tumor and perform surgery in 15 minutes. Simple. Squeeze several weeks into 15 minutes and you can get it done quickly.
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 04:49 PM
For fuck's sake, that's piss weak. Just fire off on any member of the staff who wants to join the discussion.
You've been rather pissy today, or that's the impression I get. You need more envelopes or something?
I love you too, Luke.
X-Rated
07-23-2012, 05:08 PM
Was I talking to you, Doug? That would be no.
I don't give a shit if you own firearms. I don't think people should own MILITARY firearms. Period.
I'm not a gun hater. I just don't think that guns an ammunition should be as available as they were for this Holmes clown.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Others don't value human life like we do, Janet. I wish it wasn't so, but they are making it pretty obvious.
Thanks, Trav!
Erm..I had just woke up when I wrote that. That will only work after the initial quote tag. After that you will have to put a Quote tag before the paragraph and an end quote tag after the paragraph. ...You get the picture.
Makes my head hurt, ill just play video games instead. :lol:
Here's how to do it:
Your stuff here
More of your stuff here.
----
In the end, it should look like this:
Your stuff here
More of your stuff here.
That makes more sense...im good at the surf and search, not so much with the logistics. Thanks again.
o.0 I have been using mine all wrong.
Me too. My assault rifle is a terrible garden tool...even worse as an eating utensil! :shock:
Old joke: I was at a fight last night and a hockey game broke out.
Thats why i only play in GM mode...i make the trades and adjust the lines, then sit in the owners box and watch. ;)
Was I talking to you, Doug? That would be no.
You make a comment belittling every gun owner in the country, but you weren't talking to me? Excuse me, but you better re-read your own post.
I don't think people should own MILITARY firearms. Period.
Good...none was used in this instance.
There were however 2 military style firearms used. Which was the second?
I'm not a gun hater. I just don't think that guns an ammunition should be as available as they were for this Holmes clown.
Nor do I, but tell me how you would have restricted him? Everyone assumes that there must have been something that would give him away as being insane, and I call bullshit. It's not always possible to tell without intense long term scrutiny.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
KC2UGV
07-23-2012, 05:51 PM
Alright.. I don't understand. Why would someone make a phone call when the guy is standing right in front of them? I thought we were talking about gun dealers. The guns were sold in-person. Unless I am missing something....
It's called "Due diligence". Verify the person is who they say. Take a bit of time, and make sure you're not selling a gun to a cartel member. You know, the responsible kinds of things people do?
Just as gun dealers have to pay for their license, insurance etc. You were aware that they have to be licensed, right? Next strawman.
And in the meantime, the parents get a pass in your world, as does our entire mental health system. Gotcha.
Yep, licensed. Which has naught to do with them taking the time to do some due diligence.
Please tell me how to identify a mass murderer in the 15 minutes I would have to do so at a gun store. What are all the character traits involved? Is it beady eyes, or the high forehead? How would you have identified Ted Bundy if he walked up to you at a bus stop and struck up a conversation? Same for McVeigh?
And again, tell me all about the parents culpability, will you?
Maybe, just maybe, it should take longer to buy a gun than to create a Facebook account... Maybe the fact it only takes 15 minutes (Less time than it takes to get some gas) to buy a gun is a big part of the issue?
It's called "Due diligence". Verify the person is who they say. Take a bit of time, and make sure you're not selling a gun to a cartel member. You know, the responsible kinds of things people do?
Already required, anywhere in the U.S. with a retail gun sale...and you know it. OBTW, how would I identify a cartel member with any current form of available ID?
Yep, licensed. Which has naught to do with them taking the time to do some due diligence.
True, but it wasn't me that brought licensing into the picture.
Maybe, just maybe, it should take longer to buy a gun than to create a Facebook account... Maybe the fact it only takes 15 minutes (Less time than it takes to get some gas) to buy a gun is a big part of the issue?
Why, that's long enough to verify an ID and get an answer back on a NICS check in most cases. On the instances where it's not long enough, the sale can't legally proceed.
KC2UGV
07-23-2012, 06:23 PM
Already required, anywhere in the U.S. with a retail gun sale...and you know it. OBTW, how would I identify a cartel member with any current form of available ID?
No, it's not. If it were, the gun dealers would have caught the same thing the president of the gun club did. But, you know that.
True, but it wasn't me that brought licensing into the picture.
Why, that's long enough to verify an ID and get an answer back on a NICS check in most cases. On the instances where it's not long enough, the sale can't legally proceed.
Ah, again: It's all legal, and don't expect me to do anymore than I absolutely must.
"Don't blame me! He had insurance and a driver's license! Not my fault he drove off the lot hammered!"
Honestly Doug, you don't see a problem with it taking longer to set up a Facebook account, than to buy a gun? Or, it taking longer to buy a car, than to buy a gun? Nothing at all wrong with that?
kf0rt
07-23-2012, 06:39 PM
"Bad Cliches" is your nonsense. Reality is a different thing.
Yes, true gun freaks crave power, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Guns=Power to the feeble minded.
You are extrapolating that to mean I'm trashing ALL people who like guns. That far from the truth. N8YX is a responsible gun owner. He's not going to take out the Akron mulitplex.
Your condescending approach to this debate is NOT appreciated. Dial it back, please.
Sorry about that, Janet. Along this line though, I haven't seen anything in Holmes' background that indicates he was a "gun nut." Sure, there are those who fit the mold you suggest. Aurora doesn't appear to fit this mold, nor did Columbine. In fact, I'm hard pressed to recall any mass killing where the "gun as a penis extension" was much of a motivating factor behind the crime. Usually, it's a case of social disenfranchisement of one sort or another. Too early to tell in this case, but right now, it's looking like the guy just went nuts. From an academic view, I'm most interested in how this guy's neuroscience background plays into it all. Did he sense something was wrong and was trying to learn more? Was he messed up from the start and using the neuro stuff to better his odds? We may never know.
I hope you can understand that I've been doing these "gun debates" since the FIDO days (you too, I'd bet). Haven't gotten deep into one for some time because well... they're all the same, and this one is no different. What we're doing here is examining the ENDS of the bell curve. Same debate that it always is when something tragic like this happens. Same strawmen, same hyped non-conclusions. On one end, there ARE those who would love to own their own tank. They scare me, too, but what are the odds of passing THAT legislation? On the other end, there are those who would love to see all firearms banned, no matter the purpose.
I can only offer my experience. And I grew up living 1.5 miles from where this took place (which matters NOT). I'd offer up my experience as a 56-year resident of the Denver area (here for Columbine, too), but that doesn't seem too germane to things when the shooter moved here from San Diego only a year ago. Lets just say that most adults I know are gun owners, and while I do know a "patriot" or two, these are probably the people I'd most want sitting next to me in a theater. They're very experienced and practiced, but that doesn't mean I'd want to see a showing of Batman with a theater full of CCW holders armed to the hilt. Colorado has a very strong gun culture, though. Hunters and competition shooters, mostly. More than a few weekend plinkers, too.
While concentrating on the ends of the curve, we're ignoring the bell. I'm talking about the literally millions of gun owners who will never be a problem. The overwhelming and vast majority, if I may be so bold. We're not talking about lawn darts here, but a huge industry that traverses everything from wildlife conservation to the Olympics. You can fear bazookas (and rightfully so) and I can point out that cars kill more and Ted Nugent is STILL an asshole. What makes this different than an innocent death via DUI (happens all the time and is no less tragic to those involved) is that in these cases, someone deliberately set out to kill people. These people are aberrations of humanity and it's always been that way. I did a LOT of reading after Columbine.
Now, I'm not one of the "freedom banger" dudes who is all wrapped up in the patriot-gun thing; nor would I condone gun ownership if I thought there was a strong correlation between gun ownership and these kinds of crimes (watch me take shit for that comment, but apparently Gov. Hickenlooper agrees). But, I'm not seeing it. In every case, what I see is people who are "way off" the bell curve for whatever reason. This is why I mentioned the serial killers of the 70's. As has been pointed out here, the bigger monsters don't even use guns.
This is a very emotional subject for many and we should always strive to do better, but this is a social problem, not a gun problem. In some cases, it may even be a medical problem (kind of leaning that way on the Aurora deal, but time will tell). Guns are reasonably easy to buy; bombs are real easy to make. I'd rather face the gun, thanks. And yeah, that's a strawman. Sad to say, I'm pretty sure you can't put toothpaste back in the tube on this stuff.
I have no answers except to face life without much fear. Your/my risk isn't very large here, but in a country with 300+ million people, we need to keep an eye on the bell.
That said, a couple of real personal comments on the subject, apologies in advance:
I'd have more skin in this game if I hadn't lost all my guns in a boating accident a few years back.
I'm damn glad Aurora PD was handling this (instead of Boulder; yeah, that's a jab). The APD guys are true pros, and I have personal (good) experience with the Aurora PD. They (very likely) saved my Dad's life a little over a year ago on a routine call. These guys and gals ARE the best, and we should think of them, too.
This shit affects us all and we have every reason to plumb the depths of our souls on how to make things better. Might just be my background, but with 300+ million people, it's safe to assume that a small percentage is "living on the edge" at any given time.
My advice? Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture.
KB3LAZ
07-23-2012, 06:55 PM
No, it's not. If it were, the gun dealers would have caught the same thing the president of the gun club did. But, you know that.
Ah, again: It's all legal, and don't expect me to do anymore than I absolutely must.
"Don't blame me! He had insurance and a driver's license! Not my fault he drove off the lot hammered!"
Honestly Doug, you don't see a problem with it taking longer to set up a Facebook account, than to buy a gun? Or, it taking longer to buy a car, than to buy a gun? Nothing at all wrong with that?
I think a FB account should take longer to create, require fingerprints, retinal scans, DNA sample, etc. People these days are impressionable and we must protect them from what they may see.
KB3LAZ
07-23-2012, 06:57 PM
That makes more sense...im good at the surf and search, not so much with the logistics. Thanks again.
I tried to give an example before but the forum ate it. ...lol. It is not that hard, its all memory, nothing more. After you do it a few times, it will be second nature.
kf0rt
07-23-2012, 07:00 PM
Was I talking to you, Doug? That would be no.
I don't give a shit if you own firearms. I don't think people should own MILITARY firearms. Period.
I'm not a gun hater. I just don't think that guns an ammunition should be as available as they were for this Holmes clown.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
AR-15: Please define for me the characteristics of this firearm that makes it a military weapon and distinguishes it from a hunting weapon.
Choose your words carefully; some here know the answer. ;)
This is a very emotional subject for many and we should always strive to do better, but this is a social problem, not a gun problem.
This. Nail, meet hammer.
(Emphasis mine)
I tried to give an example before but the forum ate it. ...lol.
The [noparse] tag is your friend!
K7SGJ
07-23-2012, 07:04 PM
Sorry about that, Janet. Along this line though, I haven't seen anything in Holmes' background that indicates he was a "gun nut." Sure, there are those who fit the mold you suggest. Aurora doesn't appear to fit this mold, nor did Columbine. In fact, I'm hard pressed to recall any mass killing where the "gun as a penis extension" was much of a motivating factor behind the crime. Usually, it's a case of social disenfranchisement of one sort or another. Too early to tell in this case, but right now, it's looking like the guy just went nuts. From an academic view, I'm most interested in how this guy's neuroscience background plays into it all. Did he sense something was wrong and was trying to learn more? Was he messed up from the start and using the neuro stuff to better his odds? We may never know.
I hope you can understand that I've been doing these "gun debates" since the FIDO days (you too, I'd bet). Haven't gotten deep into one for some time because well... they're all the same, and this one is no different. What we're doing here is examining the ENDS of the bell curve. Same debate that it always is when something tragic like this happens. Same strawmen, same hyped non-conclusions. On one end, there ARE those who would love to own their own tank. They scare me, too, but what are the odds of passing THAT legislation? On the other end, there are those who would love to see all firearms banned, no matter the purpose.
I can only offer my experience. And I grew up living 1.5 miles from where this took place (which matters NOT). I'd offer up my experience as a 56-year resident of the Denver area (here for Columbine, too), but that doesn't seem too germane to things when the shooter moved here from San Diego only a year ago. Lets just say that most adults I know are gun owners, and while I do know a "patriot" or two, these are probably the people I'd most want sitting next to me in a theater. They're very experienced and practiced, but that doesn't mean I'd want to see a showing of Batman with a theater full of CCW holders armed to the hilt. Colorado has a very strong gun culture, though. Hunters and competition shooters, mostly. More than a few weekend plinkers, too.
While concentrating on the ends of the curve, we're ignoring the bell. I'm talking about the literally millions of gun owners who will never be a problem. The overwhelming and vast majority, if I may be so bold. We're not talking about lawn darts here, but a huge industry that traverses everything from wildlife conservation to the Olympics. You can fear bazookas (and rightfully so) and I can point out that cars kill more and Ted Nugent is STILL an asshole. What makes this different than an innocent death via DUI (happens all the time and is no less tragic to those involved) is that in these cases, someone deliberately set out to kill people. These people are aberrations of humanity and it's always been that way. I did a LOT of reading after Columbine.
Now, I'm not one of the "freedom banger" dudes who is all wrapped up in the patriot-gun thing; nor would I condone gun ownership if I thought there was a strong correlation between gun ownership and these kinds of crimes (watch me take shit for that comment, but apparently Gov. Hickenlooper agrees). But, I'm not seeing it. In every case, what I see is people who are "way off" the bell curve for whatever reason. This is why I mentioned the serial killers of the 70's. As has been pointed out here, the bigger monsters don't even use guns.
This is a very emotional subject for many and we should always strive to do better, but this is a social problem, not a gun problem. In some cases, it may even be a medical problem (kind of leaning that way on the Aurora deal, but time will tell). Guns are reasonably easy to buy; bombs are real easy to make. I'd rather face the gun, thanks. And yeah, that's a strawman. Sad to say, I'm pretty sure you can't put toothpaste back in the tube on this stuff.
I have no answers except to face life without much fear. Your/my risk isn't very large here, but in a country with 300+ million people, we need to keep an eye on the bell.
That said, a couple of real personal comments on the subject, apologies in advance:
I'd have more skin in this game if I hadn't lost all my guns in a boating accident a few years back.
I'm damn glad Aurora PD was handling this (instead of Boulder; yeah, that's a jab). The APD guys are true pros, and I have personal (good) experience with the Aurora PD. They (very likely) saved my Dad's life a little over a year ago on a routine call. These guys and gals ARE the best, and we should think of them, too.
This shit affects us all and we have every reason to plumb the depths of our souls on how to make things better. Might just be my background, but with 300+ million people, it's safe to assume that a small percentage is "living on the edge" at any given time.
My advice? Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture.
Wow. Now that's what I call a well reasoned, non emotional post. (One I happen to agree with) Well done.
KB3LAZ
07-23-2012, 07:09 PM
The [noparse] tag is your friend!
I made the initial post when I woke up...If I have not had coffee I have a hard time lighting a smoke..and Im grouchy, lol.
No, it's not. If it were, the gun dealers would have caught the same thing the president of the gun club did. But, you know that.
Proving that once again Corey, you don't know what you're talking about, here's a scan of an ATF form 4473, which is filled out for every retail firearms sale. I'll direct your attention to block 20a. If you'd like to see the rest of the form, I'll be happy to scan and post it as well.
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww202/w5ga/scan0001.jpg
N7RJD
07-23-2012, 08:08 PM
That matches what I've read, Ron. I'll likely be pushing daises before anyone has to worry much about that guy again.
I can't name my source of information, I will just say it came from an officer that was part of the "multi department team" that investigated that incident due to it being an officer involved shooting. I was told Brandon would be the poop bag for lift and most "non essential" equipment below the waste has been rendered harmless (no little Brandons now or in the future.)
I just happened to be working somewhere at the time that paid high dollar to have off duty officers play security guard a few hours a day. Makes for great information gathering opportunities. Most were very willing to discuss what they could about just about anything. I always made it a point not to ask anything that would lead the conversation to the Ramsey case.
KC2UGV
07-23-2012, 08:26 PM
Proving that once again Corey, you don't know what you're talking about, here's a scan of an ATF form 4473, which is filled out for every retail firearms sale. I'll direct your attention to block 20a. If you'd like to see the rest of the form, I'll be happy to scan and post it as well.
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww202/w5ga/scan0001.jpg
And, block 20a: Copying down a state ID # is "due diligence" in your opinion?
I don't give a shit if you own firearms. I don't think people should own MILITARY firearms. Period.
N8YX is a responsible gun owner. He's not going to take out the Akron mulitplex.
And therein is exactly why some of us can be trusted to own weaponry of all types - including military-grade items: Responsibility.
Actions have consequences. I'm not going to be judged in this life or the next and found guilty of wanton killing as the result of acting out through anger. Self-preservation is one thing, being pissed off at society in general and seeking an end through violence is another matter entirely.
Bee-sides...no one is worth losing the rights I have. I'll gladly swallow my pride and walk away from a minor altercation so I don't have to escalate.
AR-15: Please define for me the characteristics of this firearm that makes it a military weapon and distinguishes it from a hunting weapon.
Choose your words carefully; some here know the answer. ;)
Before I lost everything in a tragic boating accident (truly tragic; Titanic, even!) I may or may not have owned a number of military 'pattern' arms whose base functionality is diminished over that of its true service parent. If you participate in DCM/CMP competitions, 3-gun matches and a number of other action shooting sports, your equipment must match its military equivalent in the ergonomics and dimensional departments.
Submitted for board discussion: Is this 5-shot, bolt-action, wooden-stocked .30-06 rifle a military arm?
6562
K8LET
07-23-2012, 08:35 PM
I'm still not getting what the gun club president did that was so spectacular and repeatable. He just happened to call and get the guy's answer machine and had a hunch that something sounded off. Holmes answers the phone or keeps the default message and he's likely a member of the gun club. Every single report of people who talked to him in person describe him as seeming extremely ordinary. I don't see this as an example of "due diligence" being done. It was luck, nothing more.
If you feel that more extensive background checks would be a good thing, I'm not sure I'd argue with you. But I also fail to see how they would have helped in this instance.
N7RJD
07-23-2012, 09:10 PM
Awe, but preforming a lobotomy with a straw is fun.
As long as you didn't say fun and tasty I guess it's ok. :rofl: :rofl:
kf0rt
07-23-2012, 09:35 PM
I can't name my source of information, I will just say it came from an officer that was part of the "multi department team" that investigated that incident due to it being an officer involved shooting. I was told Brandon would be the poop bag for lift and most "non essential" equipment below the waste has been rendered harmless (no little Brandons now or in the future.)
I just happened to be working somewhere at the time that paid high dollar to have off duty officers play security guard a few hours a day. Makes for great information gathering opportunities. Most were very willing to discuss what they could about just about anything. I always made it a point not to ask anything that would lead the conversation to the Ramsey case.
I actually have a home made QSL card from Brandon here somewhere. Worked him once (6 meters, I think).
No excuses for the guy, but the older I get the weirder life becomes where children are concerned. I could write a book and suspect I'm not alone. As I recall, the other side of the story is that he was pretty much abandoned by by his mother while he was in High School (dad long gone and was left on his own).
This doesn't excuse his behavior, but damn...
And, block 20a: Copying down a state ID # is "due diligence" in your opinion?
Yes, because you have to compare it with the person presenting it. 10 years in club fed for gundecking it. You've proven to the best of your ability that the person in front of you is the person on the ID.
But, that's not the issue really, is it?
NA4BH
07-23-2012, 09:42 PM
Tell me how to diagnose a brain tumor
Not that hard. CT or MRI a little bit of contrast and BOOM. Remember, there is nothing that is a perfect circle in the human body. The brain retains contrast for a pretty good while, it isn't flushed out as fast as the rest of the body.
kf0rt
07-23-2012, 09:49 PM
I'm still not getting what the gun club president did that was so spectacular and repeatable. He just happened to call and get the guy's answer machine and had a hunch that something sounded off. Holmes answers the phone or keeps the default message and he's likely a member of the gun club. Every single report of people who talked to him in person describe him as seeming extremely ordinary. I don't see this as an example of "due diligence" being done. It was luck, nothing more.
If you feel that more extensive background checks would be a good thing, I'm not sure I'd argue with you. But I also fail to see how they would have helped in this instance.
Dead on. Pretty much agree with this, though I would classify the gun range owner as a "good guy."
When do we get to start questioning the range owner's motives? Was he protecting his profits, or was he thinking of humanity?
Damn, I'm cynical these days...
Damn, I'm cynical these days...
I've been that way for decades. Cuts down on the disappointment.
NA4BH
07-23-2012, 11:21 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c79/bebop5/tx51210.gif
VE7DCW
07-23-2012, 11:30 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c79/bebop5/tx51210.gif
Poor little Ka-Blaaambi ....!! :rofl:
KC2UGV
07-24-2012, 05:55 AM
I'm still not getting what the gun club president did that was so spectacular and repeatable. He just happened to call and get the guy's answer machine and had a hunch that something sounded off. Holmes answers the phone or keeps the default message and he's likely a member of the gun club. Every single report of people who talked to him in person describe him as seeming extremely ordinary. I don't see this as an example of "due diligence" being done. It was luck, nothing more.
If you feel that more extensive background checks would be a good thing, I'm not sure I'd argue with you. But I also fail to see how they would have helped in this instance.
This is the kicker: the guy didn't do anything extraordinary, or magical. He did what people should do.
Yes, because you have to compare it with the person presenting it. 10 years in club fed for gundecking it. You've proven to the best of your ability that the person in front of you is the person on the ID.
And, that's really it. "I'm just complying with the law. Don't expect a damned thing more" huh?
But, that's not the issue really, is it?
Actually, it is. You need more paperwork to buy a car. You need to do more to buy car insurance.
Dead on. Pretty much agree with this, though I would classify the gun range owner as a "good guy."
When do we get to start questioning the range owner's motives? Was he protecting his profits, or was he thinking of humanity?
Damn, I'm cynical these days...
I'd say the range owner was protecting his profits, with near 100% certainty. But, it doesn't really matter, because that's how you bend the curve in gun violence: Go for the wallet. When you start feeling the sting there, then you'll make sure you do everything you can to prevent the risk.
K8LET
07-24-2012, 08:44 AM
This is the kicker: the guy didn't do anything extraordinary, or magical. He did what people should do.
Again... people should try to find out what customer's voicemail greetings sound like?
Here's something.. if the gun club owner was so bothered by the voicemail greeting that he wouldn't let him be a member of the gun club, why didn't he contact authorities and let them know there was a gun owner with such a disturbing voicemail greeting?
That would have been responsible. Saying that gun dealers should check voicemail greetings on the off chance they reveal something that "might not seem quite right" is absurd.
Now, making gun club owners and gun dealers to have "must-report" responsibility on anything that causes them to deny service to a customer, that I can get behind, that makes sense.
While I'm on the subject of actual solutions, here's a thought I had last night:
Why not force first time gun buyers to go through a mandatory training program, they have to have so many "hours" or "rounds" fired with a licensed instructor and during this training period their gun must be kept on the instructor's premises. I realize there's already training requirements for CCW, I'm okay with extending this to all gun ownership. I think it falls nicely into the "well regulated" clause of the 2nd amendment. And the "probationary" period would give time for instructors to perhaps notice someone "not quite right", and the licensed instructors could actually be trained on specific traits to look for. A program like this might have actually have had a chance to prevent Aurora.
X-Rated
07-24-2012, 09:51 AM
Submitted for board discussion: Is this 5-shot, bolt-action, wooden-stocked .30-06 rifle a military arm?
6562
Looks like no one picked up on this one.
I believe that it is military type. From what I have heard, the .30 caliber rounds did not do well at taking down Filipinos around the turn of the century, so, in '06, they developed the .30 caliber rifle that could do that better. So they called this one the .30-06 to differentiate it from the .30 caliber non-military version.
Honestly, I did not wikipedia this. I probably am all wrong. But that is what I remember.
No, it's a 1903 Springfield.
This is the M-1 Carbine:
6569
Are these military rifles?
6570
Looks like no one picked up on this one.
I believe that it is military type. From what I have heard, the .30 caliber rounds did not do well at taking down Filipinos around the turn of the century, so, in '06, they developed the .30 caliber rifle that could do that better. So they called this one the .30-06 to differentiate it from the .30 caliber non-military version.
Honestly, I did not wikipedia this. I probably am all wrong. But that is what I remember.
Your reference to changing cartridges dealt with the handgun rounds in service at the time, not the .30 caliber rifle. At the time, the standard handgun was a .38 revolver, chambered in .38 Long Colt, and it was woefully inadequate. That's what brought on the search for a new round, leading to the adoption of the .45 ACP in the 1911 automatic.
As to the rifle round, it first came out as the .30-03, or .30 U.S., replacing the .30-40 round in service at the time. The .30-03 was loaded with the same projectile as the .30-40, but produced a higher muzzle velocity. The .30-06 has a slightly changed brass casing, and a much higher velocity than the .30-03, accomplished by using a much lighter bullet of a different shape. Changing from the .30-40 to the new .30-03 necessitated a new rifle, as the Krag-Jorgenson rifle used with the .30-40 was not capable of handling the pressures generated by the .30-03. This was the genesis of the 1903 Springfield rifle. The Springfields that were in service at the advent of the .30-06 were rebarreled to accept the new cartridge.
The only difference between the civilian and military versions of the .30-06 at the time was the civilian version was loaded with an expanding bullet, that at the time sometimes did and sometimes didn't.
Today, the civilian loadings of this round far outclass the military rounds in velocity, not because the new rifles are made differently or are any safer, but because the technology of gun powder has changed significantly since then.
Is this a "military" rifle?
6571
Doug, is it possible to get a semi-auto version of the M-14? Always liked that rifle—the .308 round has a nice, flat trajectory.
Compared to the others I've posted thus far, is this a "military" rifle? If not, why?
6572
Doug, is it possible to get a semi-auto version of the M-14? Always liked that rifle—the .308 round has a nice, flat trajectory.
You don't want an M14. Put your money into either an Armalite SuperSASS or a KAC25. You'll thank me later.
X-Rated
07-24-2012, 10:55 AM
Compared to the others I've posted thus far, is this a "military" rifle? If not, why?
6572
It looks like it might have a slot for a detachable magazine? I give up.
It looks like it might have a slot for a detachable magazine? I give up.
But that's a "hunter" (non-military) arm!
Every one of the examples I have presented with the exception of the last are service ("military") rifles. All are bolt-action, 30-caliber, 5-shot, magazine-fed. The 700BDL (last pic) differs from the M24 by virtue of the latter having a heavier barrel and McMillan fiberglass stock, along with decent optics...however, underneath it all they share the exact same action. Including the hinged floorplate.
KG4CGC
07-24-2012, 11:11 AM
The rifle pictured is a manual bolt action type and the stock is made of wood. While this weapon may be used for target training, it is not what the soldiers on the battle field would use unless it is all they had, ie: took from the enemy.
KG4CGC
07-24-2012, 11:12 AM
And now I see you have answered.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:13 AM
The rifle pictured is a manual bolt action type and the stock is made of wood. While this weapon may be used for target training, it is not what the soldiers on the battle field would use unless it is all they had, ie: took from the enemy.
Today.
On a side not I have rifles that were once military rifles and you would not see them using them now. The question is, what will they use tomorrow?
Pistol time. Which is the military version?
6574
Which is the civilian/LEO version - and what are the differences, if any?
6576
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Meh. A) I dont know. B) Dont care. However, I prefer my revolvers. Personal preference, I suppose.
The rifle pictured is a manual bolt action type and the stock is made of wood. While this weapon may be used for target training, it is not what the soldiers on the battle field would use unless it is all they had, ie: took from the enemy.
That platform (700BDL) was used extensively in Viet Nam; lessons learned from its battlefield deployment gave birth to the 40XB (bench rest) and ultimately, the M24 program.
I'm going to refer back to this example as we meander our way through the accoutrements of various small arms. It's also a compelling reason why many of us choose to field and hunt with so-called "military" armament. Bear in mind that most states' DNR regulations absolutely forbid the use of a rifle with a magazine capacity greater than 5rds, so leave the GI versions at home, folks...unless you want the entire rig seized.
X-Rated
07-24-2012, 11:27 AM
Meh. A) I dont know. B) Dont care. However, I prefer my revolvers. Personal preference, I suppose.
Show that man the prize behind door #3
Meh. A) I dont know. B) Dont care. However, I prefer my revolvers. Personal preference, I suppose.
Ahh, the Fudds have joined in. Nice to see you, boys! ;)
ETA: This #&*% Xoom ate my last reply so I'll amend commentary a bit later. I haven't forgotten you wheelgun types, though.
Doug, is it possible to get a semi-auto version of the M-14? Always liked that rifle—the .308 round has a nice, flat trajectory.
Yes, but it's pricey.
http://springfield-armory.com/armory.php?clicktype=rifles
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:36 AM
Ahh, the Fudds have joined in. Nice to see you, boys! ;)
Dont get me wrong I have no issue with the guns you own and I even like to fire them now and again but I personally have no use for them. I hope I never have a use for them. I hold no contempt for people that own tactical rifles (Responsible owners such as yourself) as the term fudd infers.
There is a reason I like revolvers. Not only did I use them for hunting (I now hunt with a Nikon rather than a Browning) but for target shooting. I could never seem to get the same groupings with a semi. I also have a hard time keeping my skin attached. 'Dem fukers bite!
Yes, but it's pricey.
http://springfield-armory.com/armory.php?clicktype=rifles
Both the Knight and the Armalite 308 are now considered eligible for 'service rifle' competition use - the former having been officially designated the M110 a couple years back - so unless you're competing with one for purposes of nostalgia there's no reason to put up with an M14's temperament.
Prices have been dropping on both. I can get an SR-25 for just a little north of $3k. This is a rifle which costs the government almost twice that amount - even before optics and the unique Knight suppressor are added to the package.
'Dem fukers bite!
Only if you don't hold them right.
X-Rated
07-24-2012, 11:47 AM
...
ETA: This #&*% Xoom ate my last reply so I'll amend commentary a bit later. I haven't forgotten you wheelgun types, though.
Gawd. I hate when that happens. You put tons of thought into the post, spend an hour to get the ideas across, and the reply glitches and all is gone. You will never do as well the second time. It will never happen. You decide to use a text editor next time and go that way.
Another thing that usually works is to "Go Advanced" and post from there. Every few minutes "View Post" and keep the browser updated.
Ahh, the Fudds have joined in. Nice to see you, boys! ;)
I don't feel that I have been derogatory to anyone and I still have had mods jumping me, but this looks derogatory. Care to make the debate more civil?
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:50 AM
Only if you don't hold them right.
I have not yet found a semi large enough for my hands (under .45 that is). I am forever doomed, I suppose.
There is a reason I like revolvers. Not only did I use them for hunting (I now hunt with a Nikon rather than a Browning) but for target shooting. I could never seem to get the same groupings with a semi. I also have a hard time keeping my skin attached. 'Dem fukers bite!
When you and Pili make it back to the States, come over some weekend and we'll take my competition handguns out and work on your groups.
I hunt with a single-shot T/C but it's hard to run one of those in IPDA/IPSC events.
I have not yet found a semi large enough for my hands (under .45 that is). I am forever doomed, I suppose.
STI Trojan or Para-Ordnance Warthog.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:52 AM
When you and Pili make it back to the States, come over some weekend and we'll take my competition handguns out and work on your groups.
I hunt with a single-shot T/C but it's hard to run one of those in IPDA/IPSC events.
Sounds like a good deal. Will have to make a day out of it too. =) Ill bring some food items and some drinks. xD BTW ETA on that is looking like 11 months.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:52 AM
STI Trojan or Para-Ordnance Warthog.
I hear a lot about the Para Warthog. RCL loves Para.
I don't feel that I have been derogatory to anyone and I still have had mods jumping me, but this looks derogatory. Care to make the debate more civil?
You must have missed the wink, Jerry - no malice intended.
As an aside, most conservatives on this board are called far worse by their liberal contemporaries. Can we infer from your voiced displeasure that you support the cessation of ALL partisan mudslinging?
PA5COR
07-24-2012, 11:57 AM
Try my desert eagle in .357 M, big enough for your hands, and shoots accurate enough.
( 88 - 89 out of 100 on a 25 meter distance, 1 hand shooting.
I have not yet found a semi large enough for my hands (under .45 that is). I am forever doomed, I suppose.
I hear a lot about the Para Warthog. RCL loves Para.
I have a set of Hogues on my full-sized Combat model; wish I could run them on the match guns - but one must keep the GI grip profile when competing in bullseye matches. You've seen (and felt) the size of my mitts and the Hogues make a HUGE difference in that pistol's accuracy.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:59 AM
You must have missed the wink, Jerry - no malice intended.
Lol. I was curious about that as well. I actually had to look up the term.
As far as wheel guns. I know many dislike them but I love my taurus .44 mag. Much better than the previous I had. It is titanium and it is light, I feared the recoil at first and the first time I shot it I gripped it with a death grip. Those ports did a lot for me. Less recoil than my .357mag, to my surprise.
I hear people talk about the build quality in a bad tone. About 3000 rounds through it and it is still like brand new. =) Im happy with it. Particularly for the 400$ I paid for it.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 11:59 AM
Try my desert eagle in .357 M, big enough for your hands, and shoots accurate enough.
( 88 - 89 out of 100 on a 25 meter distance, 1 hand shooting.
What, no 50 cal? Lol.
Lol. I was curious about that as well. I actually had to look up the term.
As far as wheel guns. I know many dislike them but I love my taurus .44 mag. Much better than the previous I had. It is titanium and it is light, I feared the recoil at first and the first time I shot it I gripped it with a death grip. Those ports did a lot for me. Less recoil than my .357mag, to my surprise.
I hear people talk about the build quality in a bad tone. About 3000 rounds through it and it is still like brand new. =) Im happy with it. Particularly for the 400$ I paid for it.
I know many people who own Taurus revolvers and all are happy with them.
That said, Ruger's Super Redhawk in a variety of calibers will be making its way into use around the Ohio cornfields and forests. 'DSG hunts with a scoped Super Blackhawk Hunter in 45 Colt.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 12:09 PM
I know many people who own Taurus revolvers and all are happy with them.
That said, Ruger's Super Redhawk in a variety of calibers will be making its way into use around the Ohio cornfields and forests. 'DSG hunts with a scoped Super Blackhawk Hunter in 45 Colt.
I go unscoped but I also carry a rifle.
X-Rated
07-24-2012, 12:12 PM
You must have missed the wink, Jerry - no malice intended.
I did not miss the wink. I copied it directly. However, saying something derogatory with a wink does not delete the intent of the term, such as "STFU muther focker ;) " .
I am trying to add value to the debate. I have played your games somewhat, but the crux of my portion is that there are people out there who want change to take place to stop these killings, and no one in public is even calling for an end to military rifles. We just don't want maniacs or sane people shooting people. In exchange we get mired in debate that is one sided. We argue the other side's point that we don't want a total gun ban. These things aren't even in the debate.
Yes you know more about weapons than what I do. I have shot a .38 handgun one time. I scored as a marksman. I know this is pitiful, but it does not change my desire to stop these senseless killings.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 12:21 PM
I did not miss the wink. I copied it directly. However, saying something derogatory with a wink does not delete the intent of the term, such as "STFU muther focker ;) " .
I am trying to add value to the debate. I have played your games somewhat, but the crux of my portion is that there are people out there who want change to take place to stop these killings, and no one in public is even calling for an end to military rifles. We just don't want maniacs or sane people shooting people. In exchange we get mired in debate that is one sided. We argue the other side's point that we don't want a total gun ban. These things aren't even in the debate.
Yes you know more about weapons than what I do. I have shot a .38 handgun one time. I scored as a marksman. I know this is pitiful, but it does not change my desire to stop these senseless killings.
Id like to see the senseless killings done by the military stopped as well but that will never happen as long as government of any kind as well as humanity exists. I would like to see senseless killings or abuse of power by police officers stopped as well. Etc.
Yes, but it's pricey.
http://springfield-armory.com/armory.php?clicktype=rifles
Yeah, $1600 for the most basic unit. And that Web site really, really sucks! I hate the gratuitous use of Flash when just standard HTML would have worked.
X-Rated
07-24-2012, 12:26 PM
Id like to see the senseless killings done by the military stopped as well but that will never happen as long as government of any kind as well as humanity exists. I would like to see senseless killings or abuse of power by police officers stopped as well. Etc.
Great point. I added the thread on abusive power. It is real and it needs to be stopped.
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 12:31 PM
Great point. I added the thread on abusive power. It is real and it needs to be stopped.
I have given up those hopes, you know. Everyday is another day where I lose faith in the human race. ..yeah..It is one of those days.
The way we stop the senseless killings is to find out what motivates people to commit such acts in the first place - learn to recognize the precursors - and remove the opportunity for the potential to follow-through. Which portion of the so-called "system" failed here? I'm going to hazard a guess that the defendant is psychotic - possibly schizophrenic - and that someone should have picked up on this long ago. Can we equate their potential inactions to those of, say, Joe Paterno or the balance of the PSU staff. Someone had to have seen the train wreck coming long before it happened.
As far as the name-calling goes...myself, Doug, Albi (SK) and a number of other firearms enthusiasts were constantly being subject to the likes of Todd and Vinnie labeling us "nutters". If I were to do a forum search, would I find commentary from you telling them to knock the attacks off?
KB3LAZ
07-24-2012, 12:42 PM
The way we stop the senseless killings is to find out what motivates people to commit such acts in the first place - learn to recognize the precursors - and remove the opportunity for the potential to follow-through. Which portion of the so-called "system" failed here? I'm going to hazard a guess that the defendant is psychotic - possibly schizophrenic - and that someone should have picked up on this long ago. Can we equate their potential inactions to those of, say, Joe Paterno or the balance of the PSU staff. Someone had to have seen the train wreck coming long before it happened.
As far as the name-calling goes...myself, Doug, Albi (SK) and a number of other firearms enthusiasts were constantly being subject to the likes of Todd and Vinnie labeling us "nutters". If I were to do a forum search, would I find commentary from you telling them to knock the attacks off?
From me, you would. Todd and I did not get along very well. Neither here or on the zed. I only vaguely remember Vinnie.
You'd be in a very small minority.
X-Rated
07-24-2012, 01:35 PM
The way we stop the senseless killings is to find out what motivates people to commit such acts in the first place - learn to recognize the precursors - and remove the opportunity for the potential to follow-through. ... Can we equate their potential inactions to those of, say, Joe Paterno or the balance of the PSU staff. Someone had to have seen the train wreck coming long before it happened.
As far as the name-calling goes...myself, Doug, Albi (SK) and a number of other firearms enthusiasts were constantly being subject to the likes of Todd and Vinnie labeling us "nutters". If I were to do a forum search, would I find commentary from you telling them to knock the attacks off?
A. I posted a bill before Congress already that deals with changing the "system" to motivate citizens in the peaceful direction. If I search back, will I find your commentary on that?
B. I PMed Vinnie, Bill and Todd a lot when I was mod. I PMed others on the other side of the spectrum and was blasted for that.
But my account was deleted from back then. I can't prove these things. I did not realize that being civil today was asking that much.
Which portion of the so-called "system" failed here? I'm going to hazard a guess that the defendant is psychotic - possibly schizophrenic - and that someone should have picked up on this long ago.
Answered your own question. You have made my argument very eloquently. We need a system that keeps these kinds from getting weapons.
KG4CGC
07-24-2012, 01:42 PM
The way we stop the senseless killings is to find out what motivates people to commit such acts in the first place - learn to recognize the precursors - and remove the opportunity for the potential to follow-through. Which portion of the so-called "system" failed here? I'm going to hazard a guess that the defendant is psychotic - possibly schizophrenic - and that someone should have picked up on this long ago. Can we equate their potential inactions to those of, say, Joe Paterno or the balance of the PSU staff. Someone had to have seen the train wreck coming long before it happened.
As far as the name-calling goes...myself, Doug, Albi (SK) and a number of other firearms enthusiasts were constantly being subject to the likes of Todd and Vinnie labeling us "nutters". If I were to do a forum search, would I find commentary from you telling them to knock the attacks off?
Most parents would be the first ones to notice aberrant behavior and very likely to look for ways to blow it off as no big deal.
Most parents would be the first ones to notice aberrant behavior and very likely to look for ways to blow it off as no big deal.
Times must have changed markedly from when I grew up. If one of us even joked about hurting another with a firearm it would be safe to say we wouldn't be sitting down for a week.
So...when did the overt use of violence - both real and suggested - become so acceptable within our society that we readily dismiss any obvious warning signs as mere noise? And what are the root causes?
If we might trundle out another popular saying: Spoons didn't make Rosie O'Donnell fat; Rosie O'Donnell made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
The underlying issue is and always has been 'behavior control'; everything else will fall into place as a result.
Answered your own question. You have made my argument very eloquently. We need a system that keeps these kinds from getting weapons.
I doubt you'll get any argument from anybody here in that regard, as long as the proposed solution don't infringe on the vast majority that don't have problems.
One of the issues that already exists in this area is that the states are supposed to pass mental health info to the fed so it can be included in a NICS check (the federal approval process when buying a gun), and they aren't doing it. One of the reasons they aren't is the federal mandate is yet another that is unfunded.
But I think there is a lot more that would have to be done to stop someone like in Aurora, and it should have started with his family or college.
WØTKX
07-24-2012, 05:03 PM
Or his hair stylist.
KG4CGC
07-24-2012, 06:32 PM
http://www.wyff4.com/news/local-news/greenville-news/GPD-Man-acting-suspiciously-at-theaters-causes-concern/-/9654794/15665668/-/9got0k/-/index.html
http://www.examiner.com/article/conservative-radio-host-says-liberals-caused-the-aurora-shooting-cites-bible?cid=db_articles
KG4CGC
07-24-2012, 06:56 PM
Devil's Advocate?
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531686_10150962055991275_80644853_n.jpg
Todd is the first one i locked horns with when i arrived on these shores years ago....Vinnie was another one i locked horns with, but ill be honest, i forgot completely about that guy until you just mentioned him. Oregon guy, right?
kf0rt
07-30-2012, 07:01 PM
Kind of surprised that this didn't pop up here today, whut with all the recent gun talk. (Not my desire to get back into THAT).
But...
James Holmes was advised of the charges against him today in court. 142 felonies; two for each person killed (murder 1), two for each person injured (intent to murder 1), and two more for things like possessing illegal incendiary devices. The double charges are related to premeditation (1) and having no regard for human life (2). I don't quite understand why the "intent" charges weren't expanded to the survivors as well, but the prosecution probably doesn't need this.
Local legal beagles indicate that the punishment will range from life without parole to the death penalty. A successful insanity plea might net him life in the state nuthouse.
PDF floating around on the net with the list. Wish I'd bookmarked it.
KC2UGV
07-30-2012, 07:04 PM
Again... people should try to find out what customer's voicemail greetings sound like?
Here's something.. if the gun club owner was so bothered by the voicemail greeting that he wouldn't let him be a member of the gun club, why didn't he contact authorities and let them know there was a gun owner with such a disturbing voicemail greeting?
That would have been responsible. Saying that gun dealers should check voicemail greetings on the off chance they reveal something that "might not seem quite right" is absurd.
Now, making gun club owners and gun dealers to have "must-report" responsibility on anything that causes them to deny service to a customer, that I can get behind, that makes sense.
While I'm on the subject of actual solutions, here's a thought I had last night:
Why not force first time gun buyers to go through a mandatory training program, they have to have so many "hours" or "rounds" fired with a licensed instructor and during this training period their gun must be kept on the instructor's premises. I realize there's already training requirements for CCW, I'm okay with extending this to all gun ownership. I think it falls nicely into the "well regulated" clause of the 2nd amendment. And the "probationary" period would give time for instructors to perhaps notice someone "not quite right", and the licensed instructors could actually be trained on specific traits to look for. A program like this might have actually have had a chance to prevent Aurora.
One should look into a person they don't know one bit, before handing them a tool designed to kill many people as quickly as possible. Why didn't the range president contact authorities? For the same reason Doug thinks as long as a person can fill out a form, they're fit to buy a gun.
And, yes, I agree. Gun owners should be mandated training. I'd take it a step further, and require annual qualification, and mandated gun club membership for as long as one owns a gun.
ad4mg
07-30-2012, 07:11 PM
And, yes, I agree. Gun owners should be mandated training. I'd take it a step further, and require annual qualification, and mandated gun club membership for as long as one owns a gun.
Why? I feel I'm more than qualified to own the firearms in my possession. I respect the weapons, know how to properly and safely handle and store the weapons, and am more than capable in operating each of these weapons very efficiently. What would additional training and a mandatory gun club membership offer me except another way to forcibly part me with my hard earned money?
I know middle ground is a foreign concept to you, Corey, but you seriously need to find some.
X-Rated
07-30-2012, 08:30 PM
Why? I feel I'm more than qualified to own the firearms in my possession. I respect the weapons, know how to properly and safely handle and store the weapons, and am more than capable in operating each of these weapons very efficiently. What would additional training and a mandatory gun club membership offer me except another way to forcibly part me with my hard earned money?
I know middle ground is a foreign concept to you, Corey, but you seriously need to find some.
How many little girls are to be slaughtered each year to be considered "middle ground"? In your opinion?
KC2UGV
07-30-2012, 08:40 PM
Why? I feel I'm more than qualified to own the firearms in my possession. I respect the weapons, know how to properly and safely handle and store the weapons, and am more than capable in operating each of these weapons very efficiently. What would additional training and a mandatory gun club membership offer me except another way to forcibly part me with my hard earned money?
I know middle ground is a foreign concept to you, Corey, but you seriously need to find some.
And, I feel qualified to handle nuclear materials, however, I'm not allowed to, unless I take annual training, and am a member/employee of an institution that is monitored in nuclear materials handling.
This is "middle ground". One extreme is no controls on gun ownership. The other extreme is making them so damned regulated, they are impossible to get.
kf0rt
07-30-2012, 09:04 PM
Sorry I brought it up.
KG4CGC
07-30-2012, 09:12 PM
No worries OM.
K7SGJ
07-30-2012, 09:45 PM
Some of you guys have to realize that daily posts of gun crimes and stats are going to change nothing. Nothing. Any more than daily posts of DWI deaths/injuries, stabbings, beatings, wife abuse, child abuse, animal cruelty, or any number of other tragedies. It sad, it's a fact of life, and it will most likely continue until the end of time. Maybe a few will be helped along the way, but I doubt it will be many. But notice something in the examples, the common denominator. It isn't the tool or the method. All the tools can be removed and new tools and methods will replace them.
Instead of trying to limit the kind or number of tools, perhaps it is time to direct the time, effort, and resourses to finding a way to identify those prone to abuse them. Do I have the answer? Shit no. I'm an idiot when it comes to science/medical methods that may be used for early detection of signs of instability or whatever the motivation is.
I have never believed in punishing the many for the actions of the few.
Instead of trying to limit the kind or number of tools, perhaps it is time to direct the time, effort, and resourses to finding a way to identify those prone to abuse them. Do I have the answer? Shit no. I'm an idiot when it comes to science/medical methods that may be used for early detection of signs of instability or whatever the motivation is.
I have never believed in punishing the many for the actions of the few.
Part of the answer would be to get the fed to stop with the unfunded mandates for things that will work.
X-Rated
07-30-2012, 10:08 PM
...I have never believed in punishing the many for the actions of the few.
Who, besides the gun owners, are talking about punishing the many? What do you consider to be "punishment"?
kf0rt
07-30-2012, 10:47 PM
Some of you guys have to realize that daily posts of gun crimes and stats are going to change nothing. Nothing. Any more than daily posts of DWI deaths/injuries, stabbings, beatings, wife abuse, child abuse, animal cruelty, or any number of other tragedies. It sad, it's a fact of life, and it will most likely continue until the end of time. Maybe a few will be helped along the way, but I doubt it will be many. But notice something in the examples, the common denominator. It isn't the tool or the method. All the tools can be removed and new tools and methods will replace them.
Instead of trying to limit the kind or number of tools, perhaps it is time to direct the time, effort, and resourses to finding a way to identify those prone to abuse them. Do I have the answer? Shit no. I'm an idiot when it comes to science/medical methods that may be used for early detection of signs of instability or whatever the motivation is.
I have never believed in punishing the many for the actions of the few.
Agree 105%, Eddie.
We live in an odd society, and I'm an idiot, too. 300+ million souls in this country and we cannot agree on anything these days, yet we're all saying the same thing. It's bizarre as hell.
My own American "theory of life" is pretty embedded in capitalism and how we've fucked that up pretty severely over the past 4-5 decades. I see things like the Aurora shootings as a symptom, while the disease is completely ignored in a blinding flash of faux patriotism and daytime TV curiosity for the unwashed. We're Americans and can do no wrong, afterall. It's total and unadulterated bullshit.
We have theater shootings because we're really kinda fucked up as a society. We raise our children on Wii and Playstation and Facebook and Twitter without a single thought about humanity. We idolize money as if it was Gawd hisself. This (TMWOT) is counter to our instincts.
I'd like to write a "manifesto" myself about what I've learned over the years; guns won't play a major role and nobody dies. It'll all be about how we've allowed our hubris to fuck us over and how we've put profits ahead of our own well-being at every turn since the 1960's.
Thinking Americans aren't very proud these days.
W4GPL
07-31-2012, 12:49 AM
Personally, I think you all need to STFU..
The complexity of gun ownership and the consequences are dire. People are dying, slaughtered every day.. None of you, no matter how grand your pontifications have the right answers. 12 people lost their life last week due to unrestricted unregulated purchase of firearms and bullets. I think that some point we just need to realize we're a gun crazed society that needs reform. I don't know if half measures or out right prohibition is the answer, but everyone just STFU. I'm sick to death of being sick to death of this bullshit discussion. If you like your guns, stroke your dick and tell us how it's a matter of freedom; if you're a liberal pacifist prepare to be shot in an open theatre -- you're both WRONG.
Again...Nova Scotia is an option.
Personally, I think you all need to STFU..
The complexity of gun ownership and the consequences are dire. People are dying, slaughtered every day.. None of you, no matter how grand your pontifications have the right answers. 12 people lost their life last week due to unrestricted unregulated purchase of firearms and bullets. I think that some point we just need to realize we're a gun crazed society that needs reform. I don't know if half measures or out right prohibition is the answer, but everyone just STFU. I'm sick to death of being sick to death of this bullshit discussion. If you like your guns, stroke your dick and tell us how it's a matter of freedom; if you're a liberal pacifist prepare to be shot in an open theatre -- you're both WRONG.
You're quite welcome to your opinion. Thanks for sharing.
W4GPL
07-31-2012, 01:34 AM
You're quite welcome to your opinion. Thanks for sharing.Thanks for your condescending reply. Thanks for sharing.
Why do you like your guns? Perhaps it's a leap to extend it to your manhood. But why do you need them? And furthermore, why is a 30 day waiting period so abhorrent? Even if you believe a waiting period is ineffective, what the hell difference does it make to you? Why do you need a firearm so badly?
I'd like to state again, I own 7 guns.. I'm not anti-gun. But just what the hell do you think the answer to indiscriminate gun violence is?
There's a clearly a problem in our society. Personally I'm not dignifying it as a black & white issue.
There's a clearly a problem in our society.
Clearly.
Simplified, that problem is the culture of rugged individualism that flourishes in America—we're too wrapped up in ourselves to give a fuck about our neighbors. "You need help? Tough shit, don't expect it from me. You work out your own problems and leave me to pursue my own vision of happiness." No wonder we produce so many alienated loners here; too many people have no one to turn to in time of great need, regardless of whether that need is for food and shelter or simply for help dealing with internal turmoil.
The only thing that's going to fix this is for we the people to completely rethink and rebuild American society into something radically more humane, something scaled down to human size. Only then will this sort of shit cease. I certainly do not expect to see it happen in my lifetime. It's going to have be an evolutionary change, probably spread over a span of hundreds of years.
In the mean time, you might as well resign yourself to more mass murders.
All absolutely true! And i fear you are right.
ad4mg
07-31-2012, 03:14 AM
How many little girls are to be slaughtered each year to be considered "middle ground"? In your opinion?
Well, that question is so absurd, it deserves no answer. How long you been beating your wife?
ad4mg
07-31-2012, 03:20 AM
And, I feel qualified to handle nuclear materials, however, I'm not allowed to, unless I take annual training, and am a member/employee of an institution that is monitored in nuclear materials handling.
This is "middle ground". One extreme is no controls on gun ownership. The other extreme is making them so damned regulated, they are impossible to get.
And middle ground is looking for sensible solutions outside of the lunatics on either side. Come join the human race, Corey.
Ah, shucks. This is all beyond your limited comprehension abilities.
Did anyone ever tell you that you don't get your way all the time? They failed you if they didn't.
ad4mg
07-31-2012, 03:56 AM
Thanks for your condescending reply. Thanks for sharing.
Why do you like your guns? Perhaps it's a leap to extend it to your manhood. But why do you need them? And furthermore, why is a 30 day waiting period so abhorrent? Even if you believe a waiting period is ineffective, what the hell difference does it make to you? Why do you need a firearm so badly?
I'd like to state again, I own 7 guns.. I'm not anti-gun. But just what the hell do you think the answer to indiscriminate gun violence is?
There's a clearly a problem in our society. Personally I'm not dignifying it as a black & white issue.
The answer is in your last sentence. These knee-jerk responses solve nothing. The person(s) having them may feel some pitiful sense of superiority, like asking someone how many little girls need to be slaughtered or something.
Doug, specifically, he comes across as a practical gun owner, clearly enjoys the sport/hobby aspect of gun ownership. He does nobody any harm. My guns are for protection. I handle them maybe once a year, to certify their condition, and clean them. You may have them for the same reason. I intend no harm to anyone who doesn't intend to harm me.
As to the extremists, I, too wish they would STFU. They cannot have a reasonable discussion, they have to play stupid games and throw stupid, senseless, and insulting shit in everyone's face. Fuck that, and anyone who caters to that shit. I have no time in my life for little people with a God complex.
I'm saddened by the Aurora tragedy. It hits close to home. The Virginia Tech massacre is still a fresh memory, and will likely remain that way for me. These were our children who were slaughtered on that campus, our future. Anyone who has the impression that it didn't impact me, however baseless and misguided, can simply go fuck themselves. Hear that, Jerry? You don't know me, and you have no right to get my my face with your mindfuck games you play here every day. Now, twist that around and amuse yourself with that. I know you will, you can't resist.
It pisses me off that a discussion of a tragedy like this is marred by un-yielding, self-important assholes with an agenda that is limited to getting a rise out of others, and to offend as many people as possible. Fucking forum drama queens.
I think the anger towards Doug is misplaced. His position is purely defensive of an activity he engages in that, in itself (for the self-important assholes), cause no harm to anyone. Doug is a craftsman. That he enjoys the intricacies of firearms, perhaps even the hobbyist aspect, is no reason to group him in the nutter category, and that's exactly what Jerry and Corey have put so much effort into doing.
This bitter argument has been going for decades, maybe even longer. It hasn't solved a fucking thing. What is it they say about insanity?
Ours is a society, and no man stands alone in his opinion. That's not an option.
W5IEI
07-31-2012, 05:46 AM
I have 3 AR-15's.
I have several 20 ,and 30 round magazines. My favorite magazine for frolicking around the pasture is a 5 round.
I enjoy handloading, target shooting, hunting, and most other things associated with my arms collection.
Like Luke my weapons are locked away, and ammunition/reloading components are kept on my land, not in the house.
Never have any of my guns fired unless I made them do it.
STFU is not a very strong argument, and I gave that the credibility it deserved.
ad4mg
07-31-2012, 05:56 AM
STFU is not a very strong argument, and I gave that the credibility it deserved.
Yeah, and that's the one statement I, myself, could have given a little better thought to. If the self-important, forum drama queens want to spew their shit, I should celebrate their privilege to do so here, no matter how mired in bullshit I may believe their opinions to be.
Perhaps they could learn to express an opinion without being so profane and offensive, although I seriously doubt it.
And, no, I had no intention of being civil this morning. Like I stated in another thread, I have a very low tolerance for ignorance.
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 06:52 AM
Well, that question is so absurd, it deserves no answer. How long you been beating your wife?
A. I don't beat my wife.
B. Many little girls do get shot in Chicago alone every few weeks here in Chicago.
C. You are defensive of these shootings.
D. You are being offensives to those who are not.
The US has 10000 homicides a year. We are #4 worldwide. It's a numbers game. Where do you want these numbers to be? Are you satisfied at #4? Should we shoot for #1? Simple questions. Real life situations.
I'd like to state again, I own 7 guns.. I'm not anti-gun. But just what the hell do you think the answer to indiscriminate gunviolence is?
There's a clearly a problem in our society. Personally I'm not dignifying it as a black & white issue.
Adjusted a bit so the 'problem' no longer IS black and white.
If we as a society truly meant to fix these issues, we'd strongly emphasize "anti violence" over "anti-weapon". Taking away one means will not take away the motivation or the desire for the fringe element to harm others. Feel-good measures don't accomplish a damn thing in the grand scheme, but are the easiest course of action for a population which will not accept the fact that the monsters within are in fact a product of said population's mores.
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 07:02 AM
Hear that, Jerry? You don't know me, and you have no right to get my my face with your mindfuck games you play here every day. Now, twist that around and amuse yourself with that. I know you will, you can't resist.
Who's the drama queen? Seriously dude. See a shrink.
KB3LAZ
07-31-2012, 07:05 AM
Who's the drama queen? Seriously dude. See a shrink.
A better question would be, who isnt.
K7SGJ
07-31-2012, 07:27 AM
Personally, I think you all need to STFU..
The complexity of gun ownership and the consequences are dire. People are dying, slaughtered every day.. None of you, no matter how grand your pontifications have the right answers. 12 people lost their life last week due to unrestricted unregulated purchase of firearms and bullets. I think that some point we just need to realize we're a gun crazed society that needs reform. I don't know if half measures or out right prohibition is the answer, but everyone just STFU. I'm sick to death of being sick to death of this bullshit discussion. If you like your guns, stroke your dick and tell us how it's a matter of freedom; if you're a liberal pacifist prepare to be shot in an open theatre -- you're both WRONG.
Gee, Okay. I guess your views are the only ones that count. Only you have the right answers. Sorry for trying to look at this problem objectively and from alternative angles. Let's just get rid of all the guns. Then, there will be no more killings, no more inhumanity to mankind, and we will finally live in Utopia. After all, melting down all the guns IS THE answer, isn't it? There will be no other methods or tools to indiscriminately kill innocents.Thank you oh worthy one for saving the world and making sure no lives will ever be lost again due to the evil actions of the deranged.
I will now STFU on this issue because you hold the definitive solution, and all of the other ideas are non issues.
ab1ga
07-31-2012, 07:38 AM
Again...Nova Scotia is an option.
No it isn't, too many Americans own summer homes there. :)
73,
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 08:37 AM
A better question would be, who isnt.
There are many sides to the argument. No doubt about that.
A long while back in the thread, I was called out for being wrong about "everybody" being firearms owners here. But no one argued when I said that no one here wants guns taken away. So I don't see what the big deal is. Push for solutions that work and everybody keeps their guns.
Do each of us have to have a solution to post here? Charles recommended early that parents should be careful on how they raise their kids. That was shot down immediately. However, later in the thread, I see that several people are talking about behavior modification. Carlo has the approach that it will take hundreds of years. We see how health care reform worked. It really doesn't progress until we get started with it.
But as I see it, two of the sides here are...
1. They can make changes to gun ownership if they want to. I am sane and I will not have my weapons removed.
2. It will be so embarrassing if they implement psychoanalysis requirements for gun ownership.
KC2UGV
07-31-2012, 10:18 AM
And middle ground is looking for sensible solutions outside of the lunatics on either side. Come join the human race, Corey.
Ok, so elaborate: What do you consider to be "middle ground"? Unfettered access to any type of gun and ammo a person wants?
Please. Get real. You're the one in lala land here. I proposed a middle ground, and you refer to is as fringe, or partisan?
Ah, shucks. This is all beyond your limited comprehension abilities.
Apparently, you've lost complete sight of what middle and far fringes is.
Did anyone ever tell you that you don't get your way all the time? They failed you if they didn't.
Of course I know we don't all get our way all the time. Welcome to democracy, where we're supposed to meet in the middle on pretty much everything. I suggest you take a step back, and look at where the middle ground really is.
KC2UGV
07-31-2012, 10:21 AM
I think the anger towards Doug is misplaced. His position is purely defensive of an activity he engages in that, in itself (for the self-important assholes), cause no harm to anyone. Doug is a craftsman. That he enjoys the intricacies of firearms, perhaps even the hobbyist aspect, is no reason to group him in the nutter category, and that's exactly what Jerry and Corey have put so much effort into doing.
Bullshit.
Doug has declared the position, that as long as he follows the letter of the law, that is all that is required of him when handing a tool designed to kill to a person unknown to him.
Craftsman my ass. He may be good at what he does (In fact, I'm sure of, since he tipped me to a possible issue with a gun I own), but when you blatantly say,"Hey, he filled out the form. My hands are clean."; that is just stupid, and irresponsible.
It's akin to me handing a child alcohol, because they handed me an ID with their picture on it, and it said they were 21, and the ID looked "good enough".
Bullshit.
Doug has declared the position, that as long as he follows the letter of the law, that is all that is required of him when handing a tool designed to kill to a person unknown to him.
Craftsman my ass. He may be good at what he does (In fact, I'm sure of, since he tipped me to a possible issue with a gun I own), but when you blatantly say,"Hey, he filled out the form. My hands are clean."; that is just stupid, and irresponsible.
It's akin to me handing a child alcohol, because they handed me an ID with their picture on it, and it said they were 21, and the ID looked "good enough".
Ok Corey, lets go here. What should I do that is within the law to verify someone's ID? Can't run a drivers license via NCIC, as I'm not law enforcement. I've compared the photo to ensure that the person in front of me is the person on the ID. Can't verify an SSN, as tax law doesn't allow it. Can't check medical records, HIPPA won't allow it.
Your turn.
Thanks for your condescending reply. Thanks for sharing.
You don't like a condescending reply, maybe you shouldn't tell people to STFU?
Why do you like your guns? Perhaps it's a leap to extend it to your manhood. But why do you need them?
I like them for several reasons:
1. I find them fascinating from a mechanical perspective.
2. Some of them are quite beautiful.
3. They're fun.
4. Constitutional rights and the word "need" don't belong in the same sentence. The fact that the right exists is all the justification that is required. You should know this.
And furthermore, why is a 30 day waiting period so abhorrent? Even if you believe a waiting period is ineffective, what the hell difference does it make to you?
I'd agree to this just as soon as you agree to a 30 day waiting period on speech. As your comments are an obvious emotional knee jerk to Aurora, rationalize how a 30 day wait would have made any difference at all. The guy obviously planned this out for quite some time, having to buy his guns 45 days out wouldn't have been any burden at all, would it? A right delayed (for any reason whatsoever) is a right denied.
Why do you need a firearm so badly?
Because there IS evil in the world. I choose not to be a victim if I can avoid it, YMMV.
I'd like to state again, I own 7 guns.. I'm not anti-gun. But just what the hell do you think the answer to indiscriminate gun violence is? There's a clearly a problem in our society. Personally I'm not dignifying it as a black & white issue.
1. Eliminate the "war on drugs", it's responsible for about 90% of the problem.
2. Change society, by changing how society sees things. It won't happen overnight, but as with smoking, it will happen.
KC2UGV
07-31-2012, 11:27 AM
Ok Corey, lets go here. What should I do that is within the law to verify someone's ID?
Ask for references, and contact them.
Can't run a drivers license via NCIC, as I'm not law enforcement.
Actually, you can.
I've compared the photo to ensure that the person in front of me is the person on the ID.
You've confirmed identity. Fine.
Can't verify an SSN, as tax law doesn't allow it.
Yes, you can. All it requires is for the person to sign a release, which allows you to do so.
Can't check medical records, HIPPA won't allow it.
Again, all you need is a signed release, and you can do so.
Your turn.
Credit score, ChexSystems, Insurance Ratings, et al. There's lots of things one can do.
You just choose not to do so.
4. Constitutional rights and the word "need" don't belong in the same sentence. The fact that the right exists is all the justification that is required. You should know this.
I had to touch this one. You have a constitutional right to own a gun, to support the well-regulated militia. Therefore, well-regulated applies. Just as one can not go out and just buy a nuclear weapon, we can regulate guns just the same.
Ask for references, and contact them.
No doubt all the other gang-bangers will tell me he's a real stand up guy. Anecdotal information isn't very useful for much of anything.
Actually, you can.
You've confirmed identity. Fine.
And run a background check, which is supposed to include mental health information, but doesn't in many cases.
Yes, you can. All it requires is for the person to sign a release, which allows you to do so.
As I've already established identity via DL, what would it accomplish?
Again, all you need is a signed release, and you can do so.
Better go read the law again. The release only covers medical necessity, not Joe Blow. To apply it the way you're talking about will require changing the law.
Credit score, ChexSystems, Insurance Ratings, et al. There's lots of things one can do.
Why do I care if he pays his bills on time or not, as long as he pays me? The fact that he does or doesn't isn't germane.
You just choose not to do so.
Again, come up with something that helps. All you've got here is a bunch of nothing.
I had to touch this one. You have a constitutional right to own a gun, to support the well-regulated militia. Therefore, well-regulated applies. Just as one can not go out and just buy a nuclear weapon, we can regulate guns just the same.[/QUOTE]
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 11:39 AM
Ok Corey, lets go here. What should I do that is within the law to verify someone's ID? Can't run a drivers license via NCIC, as I'm not law enforcement. I've compared the photo to ensure that the person in front of me is the person on the ID. Can't verify an SSN, as tax law doesn't allow it. Can't check medical records, HIPPA won't allow it.
Your turn.
To me, the discussion is between the way things are vs. the way things should be.
The way things are, someone has a bad hair day, use their DL and buy weapons and ammo and goes out and starts blowing people away. Those who sell to the mass murders want business more than they care whether some unknown strangers get shot to shit.
All that is required for you to sell a gun is to check the ID. Guess what? People are dying with that process. People say, "Enforce the existing gun laws that don't work" all day. It doesn't change things. After Virginia Tech, there was Northern Illinois. My kids' friends were shot there. These events have consequences that do touch our personal lives.
But all I see here are the responses that are creatively different saying the same thing. "The victims had it coming. No one is taking my precious guns." This is akin to telling someone that our loved ones really don't matter. Yes, I have had loved ones die from accidents and disease. But when you start talking about the death of a loved one, the rest of us don't want to hear statistics.
But yeah. This post you make here really shoots down the whole "Enforce the existing laws" argument real well. That don't work.
KC2UGV
07-31-2012, 11:47 AM
No doubt all the other gang-bangers will tell me he's a real stand up guy. Anecdotal information isn't very useful for much of anything.
Ask for more references, if you are not satisfied.
And run a background check, which is supposed to include mental health information, but doesn't in many cases.
Supposed to, but often doesn't.
As I've already established identity via DL, what would it accomplish?
SSN is valid, you can use that to pull credit reports, ChexSystems, Insurability scores, etc etc.
Better go read the law again. The release only covers medical necessity, not Joe Blow. To apply it the way you're talking about will require changing the law.
John Q. Public can hand his medical records to anyone s/he pleases, for whatever reason s/he pleases. It just requires a release. YOU need to re-read the law. This is why insurance companies can get your medical history, for financial reasons, and to calculate actuarial.
Why do I care if he pays his bills on time or not, as long as he pays me? The fact that he does or doesn't isn't germane.
Actually, it helps a lot. If a person is deep in debt, that's cause for security clearances to be revoked, not to be employed, etc etc.
And, this is where it stops at huh? As long as you get your money, you don't give a shit about anything else. Just you, yourself, and you.
I'll bet you're happy about the new regulation being proposed, where only licensed dealers can sell ammo, huh?
No it isn't, too many Americans own summer homes there. :)
73,
So i hear. Considering how much every other country views us a dangerous pariah, i think we have to sit right where we're at until we, the citizens, prove to everyone else that we have the capacity to suffer and also the capacity to feel compassion toward other human beings without vapid dick wagging and uncontrolled spewing of opinionated tough-guy shit. We do a lot of both in this "united" nation of ours.
Hard to justify remaining a citizen of a nation with no direction whatsoever. The people are divided and really seem to have a hard on for picking apart the other side...whatever that is.
But, with this statement and any others imploring our people to quit fighting eachother and try to agree on something, i realize its a windy day and i just got a facefull of piss.
ab1ga
07-31-2012, 01:43 PM
...
Hard to justify remaining a citizen of a nation with no direction whatsoever. The people are divided and really seem to have a hard on for picking apart the other side...whatever that is.
But, with this statement and any others imploring our people to quit fighting eachother and try to agree on something, i realize its a windy day and i just got a facefull of piss.
Be of good cheer, Adam, your heart and mind are in the right place. But when the wind blows strong, try not to face it. :)
I've started this paragraph three different ways, and none of them was right. Maybe I'll think up something useful in a little while.
73,
.dale.
Shit, i rarely do! I have many ideas and thoughts in my head, but i find the best one usually ends up being humor.
ad4mg
07-31-2012, 02:01 PM
A. I don't beat my wife.Good.
B. Many little girls do get shot in Chicago alone every few weeks here in Chicago.You said Chicago twice.
C. You are defensive of these shootings.You're full of shit, I haven't defended anything.
D. You are being offensives to those who are not.Piss off. You started this stupid shit, if you can't play defense, get the fuck off the field.
The US has 10000 homicides a year. We are #4 worldwide. It's a numbers game. Where do you want these numbers to be? Are you satisfied at #4? Should we shoot for #1? Simple questions. Real life situations.I worry more about people like you going off the deep end. You seem eerily disturbed by all of this, and like the nutters who do go off, you blame everyone else. Or, it's your brand of mind-fuck. Take your pick. You wanted to really piss someone off, you got what you wanted. Deal with it, Jerry.
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 02:17 PM
Good.
You said Chicago twice.
Two Chicago girls got shot at the same time.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8732010
You're full of shit, I haven't defended anything.
You are correct there. Your diatribe is defenseless.
Piss off. You started this stupid shit, if you can't play defense, get the fuck off the field.
You can look back. The debate had stated on Friday the 20th. My posts did not begin until Saturday the 21st my time.
I worry more about people like you going off the deep end. You seem eerily disturbed by all of this, and like the nutters who do go off, you blame everyone else. Or, it's your brand of mind-fuck. Take your pick. You wanted to really piss someone off, you got what you wanted. Deal with it, Jerry.
I think we have a supporter of gun control right here. If you believe that nutters like me would have their guns taken away while yours is safe since you are so stable, what could supporting gun control hurt?
BTW. Yes I go off the deep end when children get shot. Want to make something of it?
ad4mg
07-31-2012, 02:25 PM
Two Chicago girls got shot at the same time.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8732010
You are correct there. Your diatribe is defenseless.
You can look back. The debate had stated on Friday the 20th. My posts did not begin until Saturday the 21st my time.
I think we have a supporter of gun control right here. If you believe that nutters like me would have their guns taken away while yours is safe since you are so stable, what could supporting gun control hurt?
BTW. Yes I go off the deep end when children get shot. Want to make something of it?
More mind fuck from the resident lunatic. Oh, that's right, you're pushing envelopes. Hope you're enjoying it, OM. At least you have an audience here you can play to, eh?
Want to make something of it?
How childish, Jerry. Juvenile delinquent playground rhetoric. You gonna beat me up? I'm amused. Really.
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 02:31 PM
More mind fuck from the resident lunatic. Oh, that's right, you're pushing envelopes. Hope you're enjoying it, OM. At least you have an audience here you can play to, eh?
How childish, Jerry. Juvenile delinquent playground rhetoric. You gonna beat me up? I'm amused. Really.
Well, anyway, I am hoping the little girls recover.
Dont make me call Dana White and make us all a bunch of money....
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 03:59 PM
Dont make me call Dana White and make us all a bunch of money....
Let me at 'im.
Aw shucks. Luke and I are buds. We go way back on the intarwebs. Our political views are so close that it bugs us that they aren't spot on.
Luke is the best. Put it there, buddy.
To me, the discussion is between the way things are vs. the way things should be.
The way things are, someone has a bad hair day, use their DL and buy weapons and ammo and goes out and starts blowing people away. Those who sell to the mass murders want business more than they care whether some unknown strangers get shot to shit.
All that is required for you to sell a gun is to check the ID. Guess what? People are dying with that process. People say, "Enforce the existing gun laws that don't work" all day. It doesn't change things. After Virginia Tech, there was Northern Illinois. My kids' friends were shot there. These events have consequences that do touch our personal lives.
But all I see here are the responses that are creatively different saying the same thing. "The victims had it coming. No one is taking my precious guns." This is akin to telling someone that our loved ones really don't matter. Yes, I have had loved ones die from accidents and disease. But when you start talking about the death of a loved one, the rest of us don't want to hear statistics.
But yeah. This post you make here really shoots down the whole "Enforce the existing laws" argument real well. That don't work.
Point taken Jerry, but as the Aurora shooter WAS under a psychiatrists care at the grad school, how did he manage to get a gun in the first place? We're right back to our unfunded mandate for reporting same to the fed. Had that been done, this likely never would have happened. If the shrink didn't report it, then why not?
Ask for more references, if you are not satisfied.
Why, his bros all told me he was a stand up guy.
Supposed to, but often doesn't.
So fix the system. Not my fault it doesn't work as intended. We're back to that whole unfunded mandate thing, aren't we?
SSN is valid, you can use that to pull credit reports, ChexSystems, Insurability scores, etc etc.
None of which is germane.
John Q. Public can hand his medical records to anyone s/he pleases, for whatever reason s/he pleases. It just requires a release. YOU need to re-read the law. This is why insurance companies can get your medical history, for financial reasons, and to calculate actuarial.
No Corey, you haven't read the law. I dare you, try walking out of your doctor's office with your records. You see, even though they are about you, they don't belong to you. They belong to the office where they were created. Insurance companies get records in abstract statistical form for the actuaries, they do not get Corey's medical record. At least not in a form that identifies you. If you apply for insurance, then your doctor may release it to them, but that's not necessarily for the actuaries.
Actually, it helps a lot. If a person is deep in debt, that's cause for security clearances to be revoked, not to be employed, etc etc.
Again, not germane. You lose your clearance because you are now vulnerable to espionage. Not much of a concern for John Q. As to employment, you'll find many states fighting that one now, as it's not germane to being employed. Nor is it germane to buying a gun.
And, this is where it stops at huh? As long as you get your money, you don't give a shit about anything else. Just you, yourself, and you.
trolling again via context, eh? I thought better of you. I guess when you don't have a valid argument, trolling is all you do have.
I'll bet you're happy about the new regulation being proposed, where only licensed dealers can sell ammo, huh?
Don't care one way or another. I don't sell ammo, and I don't buy loaded ammo.
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 04:26 PM
Point taken Jerry, but as the Aurora shooter WAS under a psychiatrists care at the grad school, how did he manage to get a gun in the first place? We're right back to our unfunded mandate for reporting same to the fed. Had that been done, this likely never would have happened. If the shrink didn't report it, then why not?
Good points. This is a job for ACA. We really can't do without it if we want to keep our guns.
X-Rated
07-31-2012, 04:29 PM
...
So fix the system. Not my fault it doesn't work as intended. We're back to that whole unfunded mandate thing, aren't we?
...
Doesn't have to be unfunded. They could stick a 60% fee on guns and ammo to cover the costs. Good point.
KC2UGV
08-01-2012, 08:21 AM
Why, his bros all told me he was a stand up guy.
If you are satisfied after checking into the guy a bit, fine. You've at least tried to check up.
So fix the system. Not my fault it doesn't work as intended. We're back to that whole unfunded mandate thing, aren't we?
So, let's fund it, instead of gun nuts fighting funding it tooth and nail.
None of which is germane.
Of course it is. You refuse to admit it, however. If someone is deep in debt, shifts from place to place, and has left 13 banks to dry with overdrawn balances, and is dangerous on the road; you'd be ok handing that person a gun?
Of course. It's money in your pocket. What else do you care about?
No Corey, you haven't read the law. I dare you, try walking out of your doctor's office with your records.
I've requested my records several times. I've also had more than a few doctor's offices request my records for me. And, I've also had to allow my insurance carrier to request my records.
I've read the law. Apparently, you have not. In fact, I've LIVED that law for about 6 years now, doing compliance work.
You see, even though they are about you, they don't belong to you. They belong to the office where they were created.
You don't own your records, anymore than you own your credit report. However, you are allowed to request copies (And, sometimes pay for them).
Insurance companies get records in abstract statistical form for the actuaries, they do not get Corey's medical record. At least not in a form that identifies you. If you apply for insurance, then your doctor may release it to them, but that's not necessarily for the actuaries.
Yes, they DO get "Corey's" record (And, Doug's too). And, it is in fact used to run the actuaries for your group policy (For an employer policy), or for your individual policy.
Actuaries figure in your past history, risk profile, and cost to insure against those. Sounds kind of like what I'm suggesting gun dealers do, huh?
Again, not germane. You lose your clearance because you are now vulnerable to espionage. Not much of a concern for John Q. As to employment, you'll find many states fighting that one now, as it's not germane to being employed. Nor is it germane to buying a gun.
It's very germane. You just choose to reject reality, and instead, substitute your own. You just don't want to take any of the burden, and you just want the cash in your hand.
trolling again via context, eh? I thought better of you. I guess when you don't have a valid argument, trolling is all you do have.
What context? You said that all that is required of you (And all you should have to do), is have the customer fill out a form, and hand you money. That's not trolling, that's demonstrating the endemic attitude of the gun industry: Profits above concerns for the ramifications.
Don't care one way or another. I don't sell ammo, and I don't buy loaded ammo.
Well, since you're a licensed dealer, you've got the market cornered. No more going to Wally World for a case of ammo, now they have to go to an NRA sponsor for it.
If you are satisfied after checking into the guy a bit, fine. You've at least tried to check up.
And now that I've wasted a significant portion of my day, what have I accomplished? (hint - nothing)
So, let's fund it, instead of gun nuts fighting funding it tooth and nail.
More of your unsupportable supposition. I've never heard of anyone fighting it. In fact, I've never heard the subject come up.
Of course it is. You refuse to admit it, however. If someone is deep in debt, shifts from place to place, and has left 13 banks to dry with overdrawn balances, and is dangerous on the road; you'd be ok handing that person a gun?
Yes, because it has no bearing on the subject...not even in your world.
Of course. It's money in your pocket. What else do you care about?
The same thing any business owner cares about, nothing more nothing less.
I've requested my records several times. I've also had more than a few doctor's offices request my records for me. And, I've also had to allow my insurance carrier to request my records.
Interesting. I've never requested my records for anything. In fact, the only records I have are my military records.
I've read the law. Apparently, you have not. In fact, I've LIVED that law for about 6 years now, doing compliance work.
You don't own your records, anymore than you own your credit report. However, you are allowed to request copies (And, sometimes pay for them).
Of course you are. Last time I checked it was something like $3/page.
Yes, they DO get "Corey's" record (And, Doug's too). And, it is in fact used to run the actuaries for your group policy (For an employer policy), or for your individual policy.
Actuaries figure in your past history, risk profile, and cost to insure against those. Sounds kind of like what I'm suggesting gun dealers do, huh?
gun dealers aren't insurance companies, no matter how much you think they should be.
It's very germane. You just choose to reject reality, and instead, substitute your own. You just don't want to take any of the burden, and you just want the cash in your hand.
No, you just want the burden anywhere but where it belongs.
What context? You said that all that is required of you (And all you should have to do), is have the customer fill out a form, and hand you money. That's not trolling, that's demonstrating the endemic attitude of the gun industry: Profits above concerns for the ramifications.
No, it was a troll, plain and simple.
Well, since you're a licensed dealer, you've got the market cornered. No more going to Wally World for a case of ammo, now they have to go to an NRA sponsor for it.
Hate to tell you this, but all the Wally worlds I'm aware of are licensed dealers. You won't get a case of ammo from them, because they don't stock it that way. Most outfits that deal ammo are, even the online guys.
KB3LAZ
08-01-2012, 09:12 AM
Hate to tell you this, but all the Wally worlds I'm aware of are licensed dealers. You won't get a case of ammo from them, because they don't stock it that way. Most outfits that deal ammo are, even the online guys.
Every walmart I have been to in the last five years will only sell you two boxes of shells in a 24 hour period. A lot of local gun dealers are the same these days. That is, two boxes of one type. I can buy two boxes of .357 mag, two boxes of .44mag, etc, all at once.
This one killed two more than the theatre whackjob...wonder if the usual suspects will be calling for the heads of Firestone's and Goodyear's CEOs?
http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2012/jul/22/jp_goliad_fatality_072312_183108/
Ban tires: It's for the illegalschildren.
Every walmart I have been to in the last five years will only sell you two boxes of shells in a 24 hour period. A lot of local gun dealers are the same these days. That is, two boxes of one type. I can buy two boxes of .357 mag, two boxes of .44mag, etc, all at once.
But those same Wal-Marts are now stocking Colt 6920s. ;)
KB3LAZ
08-01-2012, 10:05 AM
But those same Wal-Marts are now stocking Colt 6920s. ;)
I was recently informed that ours finally started selling hunting rifles again. This after about a 10 year hiatus of gun sales.
Walmart amuses me in many ways. We can not sell guns because we are a family store but we will sell you the bullets. We can not sell you explicit music but we can sell rated R movies and produce our own porn. We can also sell tobacco and alcohol. But remember we are a family store which means we can only hire people part time so we dont have to give them medical.
/Walfart rant
WØTKX
08-01-2012, 10:13 AM
Wow. Sporty. Of course it's available at WalMart. It's where all discriminating LEO's shop.
Very inexpensive at about $1200. How... interesting. Available elsewhere, online.
http://www.impactguns.com/colt-m4-carbine-6920-ar15-16in-6920.aspx
This specially designed law enforcement weapon system features many of the combat proven advantages of the military M4. With the 4-position buttstock fully retracted, the Law Enforcement Carbine is less than 30 in (76.2 cm) in length and weighs only 5.65 lb (2.56 kg) - ideal for tactical deployment and traditional patrol.
http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/colt_m4_6920.jpg
A number of years ago I fielded something similar to this BAR. At that time you could have bought a few Colts for what a high-grade Safari would fetch:
6650
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_BAR
Mine was half of a matched set, the other half being an A5 in 16ga. Both were of Belgium manufacture and were made in the same year I was.
Try as I might, I just couldn't bring myself to tote that thing around in places where the uber-expen$ive stock, inlays and engraving would be ruined. It was sold. If I hunt with a semi-auto these days it's with an AR/LR-pattern rifle in a caliber appropriate for the game I'm harvesting. No worries about screwing the finish up - they're built to take it.
And before the anti-high-capacity magazine crowd works itself into a lather, our DNR has always stipulated the use of 5rd magazines for hunting...no ifs, ands or buts. Get caught with a larger-capacity one and you're going to face a nice fine.
Wow. Sporty. Of course it's available at WalMart. It's where all discriminating LEO's shop.
Very inexpensive at about $1200. How... interesting. Available elsewhere, online.
http://www.impactguns.com/colt-m4-carbine-6920-ar15-16in-6920.aspx
http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/colt_m4_6920.jpg
Are you purposely trying to drive Corey into apoplexy with this? *GASP*, it's an evil BLACK rifle!
Are you purposely trying to drive Corey into apoplexy with this? *GASP*, it's an evil BLACK rifle!
That BAR was a helluva lot more lethalevil in 7mm Rem Mag guise than any li'l ol' puny .223 pony gun - especially at ranges greater than 300yds. Browning also chambers it in 300 Win Mag and 338 Win Mag, both of which are heavily favored by "interdiction" teams.
That BAR was a helluva lot more lethalevil in 7mm Rem Mag guise than any li'l ol' puny .223 pony gun - especially at ranges greater than 300yds. Browning also chambers it in 300 Win Mag and 338 Win Mag, both of which are heavily favored by "interdiction" teams.
Yeah, but we both know that there's zero difference between a BLACK rifle you can actually buy, and an M-4. Why, the black rifle makes you just as well armed as a SOLDIER! ;)
KC2UGV
08-01-2012, 12:40 PM
And now that I've wasted a significant portion of my day, what have I accomplished? (hint - nothing)
You consider checking up on a person that you are about to hand a tool designed to kill "wasting your day"? Of course, you just want to push as many guns as possible onto the streets, not caring about the ramifications.
More of your unsupportable supposition. I've never heard of anyone fighting it. In fact, I've never heard the subject come up.
More substituting your own reality... Tell us: Why are they unfunded?
Yes, because it has no bearing on the subject...not even in your world.
In the "real world" it does matter. It's called "Risk analysis".
The same thing any business owner cares about, nothing more nothing less.
Any business other than the gun business cares about the risk posed by selling their product.
Interesting. I've never requested my records for anything. In fact, the only records I have are my military records.
Then, you've never once changed doctor's offices, or were seen by anyone other than a single doctor, or they never shared information (Which is unlikely).
Of course you are. Last time I checked it was something like $3/page.
And, this has no bearing.
gun dealers aren't insurance companies, no matter how much you think they should be.
ALL BUSINESSES, except for gun businesses, care about product risk, and liability. Since the gun business has special legal protections from civil suits that no other industry has, then business liability insurance is much lower.
No, you just want the burden anywhere but where it belongs.
Oh, so you want the burden placed on the people flooding the streets with guns?
No, it was a troll, plain and simple.
No, you just don't like the notion that you are a selfish person, who cares more about money, than the ramifications of your actions.
Hate to tell you this, but all the Wally worlds I'm aware of are licensed dealers. You won't get a case of ammo from them, because they don't stock it that way. Most outfits that deal ammo are, even the online guys.
None of them in my area are.
Are you purposely trying to drive Corey into apoplexy with this? *GASP*, it's an evil BLACK rifle!
Yeah, but we both know that there's zero difference between a BLACK rifle you can actually buy, and an M-4. Why, the black rifle makes you just as well armed as a SOLDIER! ;)
It takes more than the color of a rifle to be considered an assault rifle, Doug, and you know it. It takes a combination of features, designed into the gun, to make it more efficient as a tactical weapon.
Pistol grip, finish (Non glaring), bayonet clip, etc etc.
KB3LAZ
08-01-2012, 12:44 PM
I have changed doctors before and did not directly request my medical records. I requested a medical record transfer. It is the other option I was given.
KC2UGV
08-01-2012, 12:53 PM
I have changed doctors before and did not directly request my medical records. I requested a medical record transfer. It is the other option I was given.
The medical record transfer was you requesting your records, and delivering them to your new doctor :)
You can do that for anything, really. You just need to sign the "Medical Records Release" form, like this:
http://www.georgetownuniversityhospital.org/documents/Medical%20Records/MGUH_MedicalRecordForm.pdf
Please note:
The information may be used/disclosed for each of the following purposes:
At my request (only the patient can check this box)
For my health care
For payment/insurance
For employment purposes
Other:
Other can be a whole lot of things, even a gun purchase check.
KB3LAZ
08-01-2012, 12:54 PM
Also, doing a search, a few articles that state that over half of all walmarts are in fact licensed gun dealers and that number is on a continuous rise. From what a few I read state, walmart is the countries largest gun and ammunition supplier, even when only one third of their stores sold guns.
More recent stores to start carrying guns once again are locations in NY.
KB3LAZ
08-01-2012, 12:55 PM
The medical record transfer was you requesting your records, and delivering them to your new doctor :)
You can do that for anything, really. You just need to sign the "Medical Records Release" form, like this:
http://www.georgetownuniversityhospital.org/documents/Medical%20Records/MGUH_MedicalRecordForm.pdf
Please note:
The information may be used/disclosed for each of the following purposes:
At my request (only the patient can check this box)
For my health care
For payment/insurance
For employment purposes
Other:
Other can be a whole lot of things, even a gun purchase check.
What I mean is that I never personally got to see my own medical records. I signed a form and that was that.
You consider checking up on a person that you are about to hand a tool designed to kill "wasting your day"? Of course, you just want to push as many guns as possible onto the streets, not caring about the ramifications.
When the outcome is known in advance, you bet. That's called "make work", you should be familiar with the term.
More substituting your own reality... Tell us: Why are they unfunded?
No, you substituting yours. You made the unsubstantiated statement, as usual.
In the "real world" it does matter. It's called "Risk analysis".
Something that all small businesses do, right? I suppose you have your own risk manager working for you?
Any business other than the gun business cares about the risk posed by selling their product.
Then why do you drive a car that isn't equipped to receive a blow job to prevent drunk driving before it can be started? The technology has been around for a long time now.
And, this has no bearing.
Only in your world.
ALL BUSINESSES, except for gun businesses, care about product risk, and liability. Since the gun business has special legal protections from civil suits that no other industry has, then business liability insurance is much lower.
It's the only industry that's ever needed it.
Oh, so you want the burden placed on the people flooding the streets with guns?
No, on the idiot on the back end of the guns that are misused, where it should be.
No, you just don't like the notion that you are a selfish person, who cares more about money, than the ramifications of your actions.
I don't have any ramifications, I only fix them. If there is something funny about it, I report it to competent authority. You're the one with your panties in a permanent wad on the issue.
None of them in my area are.
That would be a NY thing then, which is typically not representative of the rest of the country.
It takes more than the color of a rifle to be considered an assault rifle, Doug, and you know it. It takes a combination of features, designed into the gun, to make it more efficient as a tactical weapon.
Pistol grip, finish (Non glaring), bayonet clip, etc etc.
And the key feature is its being a machine gun. If it's not, it's not an assault rifle.
KC2UGV
08-01-2012, 02:09 PM
What I mean is that I never personally got to see my own medical records. I signed a form and that was that.
You have yet to request them then. That's it. You can, however. And you can hand them to whomever.
When the outcome is known in advance, you bet. That's called "make work", you should be familiar with the term.
Checking references is not a known outcome. Why do you think employers, land lords, mortgage companies, et al all require references?
No, you substituting yours. You made the unsubstantiated statement, as usual.
Nice dodge. Why are they unfunded? Who cut funding for them?
Something that all small businesses do, right? I suppose you have your own risk manager working for you?
Yeah. It's called a lawyer, and my insurer...
Then why do you drive a car that isn't equipped to receive a blow job to prevent drunk driving before it can be started? The technology has been around for a long time now.
Because cars aren't designed to kill.
Only in your world.
Yes, my world is called "reality". You should join it.
It's the only industry that's ever needed it.
No industry needs special protections. All are equal before the law. If an industry is being sued often, that means the industry is fucked up.
No, on the idiot on the back end of the guns that are misused, where it should be.
And, you don't think any responsibility goes to the person pushing the guns? I suppose you think crack dealers bear no responsibility for the devastation crack causes to neighborhoods either, just the users?
I don't have any ramifications, I only fix them. If there is something funny about it, I report it to competent authority. You're the one with your panties in a permanent wad on the issue.
And the only "funny thing" is if they don't fill out a form right.
That would be a NY thing then, which is typically not representative of the rest of the country.
Yep, too bad too. Most of the guns used in crime here, come from areas like yours, where it's easy as hell to walk in, and buy bunch of guns. Thanks for fucking up my state.
And the key feature is its being a machine gun. If it's not, it's not an assault rifle.
There's more than just "being a machine gun" that makes it an assault rifle. In fact, our military could do quite well by removing the "Auto" from the select switch, since we always lock it in "Semi".
Yep, too bad too. Most of the guns used in crime here, come from areas like yours, where it's easy as hell to walk in, and buy bunch of guns. Thanks for fucking up my state.
Ummm...I think you have it a little backwards here. The reason your state is fucked up is due to criminals transporting said guns across state lines. I don't care if the damned things grew on trees in Florida and were free for anyone's taking; if your state law prohibits them from being transported into NYS, then it's illegal to do so.
Should your judicial system enforce existing laws and refrain from slapping said thugs on the hand when they're prosecuted, you just might see a different outcome.
There's more than just "being a machine gun" that makes it an assault rifle. In fact, our military could do quite well by removing the "Auto" from the select switch, since we always lock it in "Semi".
If you get your talking points from the likes of McCarthy, Schumer, Lautenberg et al you are correct. However (and this may come as a shock to you) it's almost universally agreed within the military and LE communities - as well as the SAAMI organization - that the select-fire switch is the sole determining factor when it comes to 'type' classification. All the rest is merely cosmetics.
On today's Martinsville, WV Chik-Fil-A bombing threat - lifted from elsewhere:
"The saddest part is you know there are some ultra-libs who wouldn't bat an eyelash at bombs going off at Chic-Fil-A(sic) locations if it meant taking out hordes of anti-gay marriage proponents.
Yet those same types of devices in the hands of the CO shooter are just more fuel for the gun control fire."
ad4mg
08-01-2012, 05:30 PM
Mass casualties in Denver (Aurora) area
^ Thread title ^
More than 2 dozen posts have passed (at least) since this was even mentioned. Wanna talk guns? Start a gun thread. We will no longer dishonor the victims of this latest, senseless slaughter with this gun nut / gun not tripe.
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