Should have put them underground years ago.

[w2amr]

Want to keep AC on? Bury power lines
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/02/opinion/frum-buried-lines/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/02/opinion/frum-buried-lines/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

[n2ize]

In many ways it would be more of a pain in the ass in established neighborhoods to put everything underground. First they'd have to dig up every street to bury the feeder lines, service wires and install underground transformer vaults.. Then they'd have to dig up the front of every property to run the service lines to each home. I think it's more feasible to put them underground in new developments right from the get go.

[N8YX]

Yep.

And that works up til you get major flooding. This picture from 1913 is one of those 500-year events that can wipe entire infrastructures out, and is of an area in my city of residence - located about a mile south of me. The two men are walking alongside the Ohio-Erie Canal, and the river which overflowed its banks - the Tuscarawas - is 1/8 mile away from and 25ft lower than the railheads:

6313

All of the industry in the floodplain is near enough to river levels that if another one of these events occurs and the businesses are serviced by underground distribution lines, they're going to take the grid out when they short. This isn't the only portion of the city which gets submerged when a really big deluge sets up: About a mile to the right of the building is another creek which can flood the entire downtown along with parts of the west side - and that's where the remainder of our heavy industry is sited.

In the case of 4400v and higher-voltage lines it takes just enough water to breach the conduit seals for the fireworks to begin...

[n2ize]

In the case of 4400v and higher-voltage lines it takes just enough water to breach the conduit seals for the fireworks to begin...

Also happens in Manhattan a lot. Water + water laden with road salts seeps through manhole covers, gets into the conduits and BOOM....

[W4GPL]

Doesn't this article define 'puff piece'?

Infrastructure should be better! *grunt* Power outages, bad... Air conditioning, good...

:roll:

Next week from CNN: We should wash our hands to prevent the spread of germs.

[KC2UGV]

Genius idea:

Generate your own power. Small scale solar and wind installations, and it prevents the whole notion of "widespread outages".

[PA5COR]

Our transformers for the 150 and 380 KV lines underground are build next to houses as brick houses that contain the transformers,
All protected against flooding, and easily maintainable because they're above ground.
We do have parts of the province that get innundated when there's a deluge of rain, but electricity never suffers.

[K8LET]

Genius idea:

Generate your own power. Small scale solar and wind installations, and it prevents the whole notion of "widespread outages".

Decentralized power generation would solve a lot of problems, and go a long way for National Security. Also would put a lot of people out of work... never'll happen.

[XE1/N5AL]

Also would put a lot of people out of work... never'll happen.But, you would create new jobs in the planing, construction, maintenance and repair of these systems.

[KC2UGV]

Decentralized power generation would solve a lot of problems, and go a long way for National Security. Also would put a lot of people out of work... never'll happen.

Never, because Americans are generally lazy, and stupid.

[n2ize]

Our transformers for the 150 and 380 KV lines underground are build next to houses as brick houses that contain the transformers,
All protected against flooding, and easily maintainable because they're above ground.
We do have parts of the province that get innundated when there's a deluge of rain, but electricity never suffers.

Problem with that around here is that in these old suburban areas there is no room for the brick houses to hold the xfmrs. They would be unsightly, having to occupy private front lawns or take over sidewalk space. In Manhattan it would be difficult too as entire skyscrapers are supplied by multiple transformers, many within the buildings themselves. Only place I can see it is in new developments.

[n2ize]

Rethinking this, after a conversation I had with someone about this last night, I think it may be a good idea to start putting more and more of our electrical infrastructure underground. It would provide many jobs in all different levels. Plus, living in a world so dependent on electronics it is hard for our business infrastructure to sustain itself with extended power interruption. I am thinking (and that can be dangerous) that in the future there may be a growing demand from both the business and private sector to move to an underground distributions system. It may not be practical or feasible to do everywhere, nor must it all be done at once. However, a gradual shift (perhaps over the next few decades) from overhead to underground wiring might be a sensible thing to do. And, in the long run may end up saving a lot of money.

[KC2UGV]

Rethinking this, after a conversation I had with someone about this last night, I think it may be a good idea to start putting more and more of our electrical infrastructure underground. It would provide many jobs in all different levels. Plus, living in a world so dependent on electronics it is hard for our business infrastructure to sustain itself with extended power interruption. I am thinking (and that can be dangerous) that in the future there may be a growing demand from both the business and private sector to move to an underground distributions system. It may not be practical or feasible to do everywhere, nor must it all be done at once. However, a gradual shift (perhaps over the next few decades) from overhead to underground wiring might be a sensible thing to do. And, in the long run may end up saving a lot of money.

Not a bad idea. Once we get a decent setup underground, some flooding will pop up, kill the grid in a new way; and in 75 years we can put it all above ground again, repeating the cycle.

Or, we can decentralize power generation, and reduce our energy consumption, and start down the road of figuring out better uses for our time. Like war.

[kf0rt]

Wireless power. That's the answer!

[KC2UGV]

Wireless power. That's the answer!

I remember some weird guy talking about that some years back. His name was Nick... Nicholas... Something like that. And, he had the same last name as a car.

[N8YX]

Genius idea:

Generate your own power. Small scale solar and wind installations, and it prevents the whole notion of "widespread outages".
As soon as I get enough land to erect everything, there will be 10-12KW worth of wind turbines and 2-3KW solar at my residence...all feeding an 8,000-10,000AH (planned) battery bank.

Thoughts are to run all of the shack and every lighting circuit within the house from it, and possibly sell any surplus back into the grid.

[KC2UGV]

As soon as I get enough land to erect everything, there will be 10-12KW worth of wind turbines and 2-3KW solar at my residence...all feeding an 8,000-10,000AH (planned) battery bank.

Thoughts are to run all of the shack and every lighting circuit within the house from it, and possibly sell any surplus back into the grid.

You can probably do a 8kW solar system already. And, if you have an antenna tower, just put a generating head on top. Properly designed, and the windload wouldn't be much more than a decent beam on 20.

[N7YA]

Doesn't this article define 'puff piece'?

Infrastructure should be better! *grunt* Power outages, bad... Air conditioning, good...

:roll:

Next week from CNN: We should wash our hands to prevent the spread of germs.

Well, you must admit, washing your hands is a good idea.

[PA5COR]

We have places where the lot floods too when rivers go over the crest of the dikes, and other problem area's our "polders" when you know the area is prone to flooding the electricity company caan adapt their infrastructure to deal with it, we can, so can the companies in the USA, but instead they spend a billion+ on influencing political parties....

I agree that changing from above ground to underground can be costly and some instances very difficult, our local transformer houses are 20 x 15 feet in size, near parks, or on the edge of playgrounds, or any space they can get them in.

Underground electrical wires are not better visually, but they are also more realiable, and cause less qrm for us.
Underground cables do tend to be more efficient in delivering electricity, less line losses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_cable Our NKF cable making corporation holds lots of patents for that.

The Dutch national electricity grid operator Tennet is to place a number of 380,000 volt electricity cables underground, reports Saturday’s Volkskrant. (2009) already in place.

State-owned Tennet claims this is the first time in the world that such high voltage cables will be laid underground, the paper says.

The experiment has been requested by the government and will involve 12 heavily insulated cables which will be placed three metres underground on a 20 kilometre route in the urban area around Amsterdam. The aim is partly to reduce visual pollution

Advances in fluid silicone jointing technology for hgh voltage underground cable, In its own right, this technology has contributed to make the vast underground cable network in the Netherlands one of the most reliable in the world.


I also understand that the population density here per square mile is a lot larger as the rural USA, but cities could benefit from a reliable power grid.

[ab1ga]

If mankind can find a way to run a cable along the sea bed and supply the repeaters with power, then I doubt a flooded trench would be a big challenge. For one, very few flooded trenches would have sharks gnawing on the wires.

COR points out the obvious: Europe, with its higher real estate, labor, and material costs, still finds it feasible to bury utilities, whereas here in the US we find reasons not to. The one major difference between our country and Europe is the long distances we may have to cover, but anyone who's watched mining and logging operations knows what the right machinery can do if properly designed and deployed. Qwest laid optical fiber along every raidroad right-of-way it could, and developed a special railroad car to trench and lay the fiber next to the track.

And if my area is any guide, there is ample opportunity to lay conduit even in less dense areas. Roads around here tend to get ripped up for something or other every five years, and it seems that even a bit of planning and coordination would at least allow for the guide tubes to be laid, to be filled with transmission medium later.

73,

[n2ize]

The thing that messes up the underground distribution system in Manhattan is the water laden with road salts. It seeps underground, corrodes everything and gets into the conduits and whammo, manhole covers blow off and flames and smoke issues from underground. Looks like they opened the gateway to hell.

[KC2UGV]

The thing that messes up the underground distribution system in Manhattan is the water laden with road salts. It seeps underground, corrodes everything and gets into the conduits and whammo, manhole covers blow off and flames and smoke issues from underground. Looks like they opened the gateway to hell.

John, do you think salt isn't used on roads in Europe?

[X-Rated]

John, do you think salt isn't used on roads in Europe?

I thought they used pepper.

[NQ6U]

I thought they used pepper.

Grey Poupon, of course.

[n2ize]

John, do you think salt isn't used on roads in Europe?

I didn't assume they did or they didn't. I am merely stating what happens with a particular underground distribution system in a particular place.I don't know. Part of the trouble in Manhattan is that there is so much shit underground and a lot of it is extremely old and problematic. One problem spills into another, i,e, an ancient century old water main breaks flooding the subways and seeping water into the high voltage conduits which shorts out and explodes rupturing a steam pipe and releasing asbestos dust so the entire street needs to be closed until HAZMAT can figure out what to do ... in the interim communications lines are damaged etc... etc...etc... I am not saying it always happens like this but, in some instances pretty damned close to it.

As far as road salts go I hear many places don't use them or have banned them due to environmental issues. I don;t know about Europe but I think I recall hearing that In Germany they were either banning the use of road salt or, were considering a possible ban.

[n2ize]

Grey Poupon, of course.

Isn't that a mustard ?

[PA5COR]

I can assure you there is a lot od salt use here in Europe to keep the streets passable in winter.
Sometimes mixed with sand to add traction, but we look at a mountain of salt in winter...