IR Extenders

[N1LAF]

Comcast/Xfinity is migrating our cable services to all digital, which puts a crimp on my multi-drop house. We are given 1 digital box and two adapters without additional cost or monthly charges(which I don't believe). All remotes are IR based, so making the tuner the central hub is limited.

Thus came a solution: IR Range extenders - IR to RF in one room on one box, and then a RF to IR at the location of device to remote control. Reviews are not so great with this solution. Maybe it is operator error.

My thinking is that this should not be hard to do. I have found excellent resources, and now will be building my own IR services in the house. I could use a wired solution. Put the IR devices in the ceiling and run the wiring in the attic.

Resources Links:
http://davehouston.org/ir-rf_fundamentals.htm
http://davehouston.org/learn.htm
http://www.edn.com/article/458595-A_universal_algorithm_for_implementing_an_infrared _decoder.php
http://www.rentron.com/PicBasic/RemoteControl.htm
http://www.rentron.com/remote_control/TXLC-XXX-LR.htm
http://www.rentron.com/NEW_IR_TO_RF.htm

This is really cool stuff!

[W4GPL]

I use an RF to IR extender. My DVR is in the bedroom, but primarily watch TV in the living room. Works fine, mostly.. a little bit of latency. :dunno: I can't get them to install a jack in the living room -- something to do with living in a building that's 130 years old. ;)

[KC2UGV]

As an aside, you can get non-digital offerings still on all of your drops, most likely.

[kf0rt]

I use one of these UFO thingies:

http://www.amazon.com/Next-Generation-Remote-Control-Extender/dp/B000C1Z0HA/ref=cm_rdp_product

You can hardwire the UFO to your cable box if it has an IR input or use the IR emitter in the UFO (or the external IR emitter that comes with it).

Very ingenious little device. The RF transmitter is actually a sleeve with a rechargeable battery you insert in one end. Comes with two batteries - the charger is built in to the UFO. The sleeve (plus battery) then replaces an AA cell in your original remote. How do you figure THAT works? I assume it's measuring the current drain and can tell from that when the IR LED is on or off.

I use it to control my HT receiver from the garage (separate amp and speakers out there).

You can buy spare battery/transmitters for more remotes. I'd test one for distance and compatibility before going whole-hog, though. Might be all you need, Paul, and if you're at all like me, "wiring in the attic" is no way to spend your spare time. ;)

[W4GPL]

As an aside, you can get non-digital offerings still on all of your drops, most likely.Not anymore with Comcast in Denver. Digital box or bust. They'll give to you for free, but you must have it -- no exceptions. They just turned off traditional 'analog' CATV signals not more than a month or so back. End of an era.

My broadband service comes with 'free' television.. the base local channels, CNN, and a few others. A got the receiver in the mail and not more than a couple days later, my service was disabled until I registered the digital box.

[N2RJ]

Sounds pretty clunky to me.

I use Windows media center and XBOXes as extenders. They all connect via ethernet. You can do MoCA, powerline networking (probably not if you're a HF active ham) or even wifi-n (must be N for streaming HD).

I only really need one device with tuners (HTPC) but it has 4 tuners and a single CableCARD for decryption. Pause in one room, resume in another. No $13 box rental fee, no bullshit DVR service fee and no sales tax on my cable bill either.

Also if you have a newer TV it may have a QAM tuner. The broadcast basic tier on most cable systems is in the clear, and per interpretation of the FCC rules most cable systems carry must carry stations (locals) in the clear.

[N1LAF]

You have to pay extra for HD ($10/month). Rumor is that the HD digital adapters will be made available in the near future. The digital adapters self-activated, had to call in for the Scientific America Explorer 3200 box. While on the phone, the tech support walked me through the activation codes to turn the TV on and off and change TV volume on the Adapter remotes, and to unlock the remote codes for the 3200 box. And to use the TV/VCR button to change the TV input (Blue Ray, etc...). Made the conversion process bearable.

[kf0rt]

We're on Comcast here... Let me know if you'd like to see an "employee" bill. (PM me, it's an ugly story).

Deal is, they'll provide two DTA's for free (these are the little boxes that convert their digital signal to analog for old TV's - Digital Transport Adapters). Extra DTA's are about $3 a month.

We have two HD TV's; one has a Comcast DVR (Living Room - a Samsung 46" with Yamaha / JBL surround sound) and the other has a plain HD box (42" LG in the bedroom). The DTA's have TV's connected, but these never get used. Don't think we live in a nice place, either. Lately, it's like adding fringe to a smelly 1970's Texico bathroom. Trust me on this.

We're on Comcast for everything -- VOIP telephone, TV and 25 Megabit Internet. Can't say that they've really done bad; it mostly just works, but there have been some hitches, and it's expensive. Normal bill is over $200 a month here.

[n2ize]

Heck, I don't even have a TV.

[N2RJ]

You have to pay extra for HD ($10/month).

Only if you want non-local channels. All cable companies carry local HD channels for no additional charge.

[N1LAF]

Only if you want non-local channels. All cable companies carry local HD channels for no additional charge.

But since the digital tuner, which is required, does not have HD output, you cannot view HD local channels. Since they carry the local channels non-HD, they meet the carry local requirement. They have said that the local HD channels will be scrambled in the future when the conversion is complete. This may be verified by Comcast users who have already been converted over.

The DTA, Digital Transport, do not give a clean output. Digital noise is present. On a simple picture, that has a solid bar through a background, you can see image lines on each side of the edge... so much for clear digital picture, its not true with DTA's.

[kf0rt]

The DTA, Digital Transport, do not give a clean output. Digital noise is present. On a simple picture, that has a solid bar through a background, you can see image lines on each side of the edge... so much for clear digital picture, its not true with DTA's.

The DTAs I'm familiar with output channel 3/4 RF. Digital in, analog out.

[N1LAF]

The DTAs I'm familiar with output channel 3/4 RF. Digital in, analog out.

Same here. Noticed the 'digital compression noise' while watching King of the Hill last night. Take a look during simple commercials or cartoons through a DTA, you will see what I am talking about, like a jpg with 80% compression

[N2RJ]

But since the digital tuner, which is required, does not have HD output, you cannot view HD local channels.

I don't think that's true. You can view HD signals (in SD). Not sure if the DTAs will do it but any QAM tuner should be able to receive them.


Since they carry the local channels non-HD, they meet the carry local requirement. They have said that the local HD channels will be scrambled in the future when the conversion is complete. This may be verified by Comcast users who have already been converted over.

Unless they get a waiver from the FCC, they can't do this. Cablevision in New York had to get waivers to do this and even so could only do it in limited areas. The FCC reaffirmed that signals must be carried without material degradation.

[N1LAF]

I don't think that's true. You can view HD signals (in SD). Not sure if the DTAs will do it but any QAM tuner should be able to receive them.

Unless they get a waiver from the FCC, they can't do this. Cablevision in New York had to get waivers to do this and even so could only do it in limited areas. The FCC reaffirmed that signals must be carried without material degradation.

Actually, the FCC did rule 5 to 0 that cable companies do not have to carry HD and Standard Definition (SD) of the same content. Comcast does not, and have chosen to not carry both HD and SD on all-digital systems

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/24156-4-kills-multicast-carry

[N2RJ]

Actually, the FCC did rule 5 to 0 that cable companies do not have to carry HD and Standard Definition (SD) of the same content. Comcast does not, and have chosen to not carry both HD and SD on all-digital systems

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/24156-4-kills-multicast-carry


Nope. That's from 2005 and addresses a different issue (OTA sub channels).

The FCC rules regarding the basic tier are thus:

Basic tier must not be encrypted
Basic tier includes "must carry" signals (local channels)
Must carry stations that are broadcast in HD must be carried in HD
All subscribers must have the required equipment to view the content
There must be no "material degradation"

This is the rule allowing the waivers:

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/10/27/2011-27743/basic-service-tier-encryption-compatibility-between-cable-systems-and-consumer-electronics-equipment#p-58


AFAIK it hasn't taken effect yet but the cable industry and the networks are pushing for another rule that removes the waiver requirement. NCTA has been pretty vocal in this regard as well, on their blog cabletechtalk. And why not, STB rental fees and "HD technology fees" are an easy backdoor way to raise your cable bill.

They have to supply you with free equipment for at least 2 years.

So yes, it is in the works but hasn't happened yet. If the push is hard enough it may not happen.

Also with a HTPC you can get a CableCARD tuner ($299 or less) and have a whole home entertainment hub with access to all cable content.

[kf0rt]

So, are you saying that if I hook my HDTV (standard OTA QAM tuner) directly up to the cable, I should receive the local HD channels in HD with no box from Comcast?

It was my understanding that everything is now encoded in a way that the box is a requirement to get anything (basic included). Or at least that's what Comcast has been telling us.

(Now I'll have to try it!)

[N2RJ]

So, are you saying that if I hook my HDTV (standard OTA QAM tuner) directly up to the cable, I should receive the local HD channels in HD with no box from Comcast?

It was my understanding that everything is now encoded in a way that the box is a requirement to get anything (basic included). Or at least that's what Comcast has been telling us.

(Now I'll have to try it!)


OTA tuners aren't QAM. They're ATSC (8VSB).

However most TVs these days are coming with QAM tuners.

So to answer your question - yes, if you hook up your TV with a QAM tuner you should at least get the local channels. You need to set your TV to "digital cable" mode or just let it do a full channel "auto setup" kind of scan.

It may not work if you hook it up to a line dedicated for your cable modem since the cable companies usually put a trap on the line.

Comcast may have been lying to you... or not, if you're in an area where they have a waiver. Cablevision in NYC got a waiver for certain areas like the South Bronx. They claimed that there was rampant cable theft and that disconnecting customers in MDUs was difficult. They even threw in a global warming argument (fewer truck rolls, less carbon emissions) for good measure.

But the CSRs love to say "you have to get a box" because it's easy for them and the rentals are pretty much pure profit after the box is paid for. Our cable company (Service Electric Broadband) charges $13/month for a HD DVR box. I think some companies charge rental plus a DVR service fee (for what, exactly?)

[N1LAF]

More...

As the February 2009 deadline for transitioning to digital TV broadcasts comes ever nearer,
cable operators are preparing for a very different challenge: recreating the analog signal after the
DTV shift takes place. Even as broadcasters shut down analog broadcasts to free up spectrum for
reuse, as mandated by U.S. regulatory authorities, many cable operators are bound by "mustcarry"
agreements for providing broadcast channels in both digital and analog NTSC formats
through 2012. These operators are in the midst of implementing cost-effective strategies for
continued provision of analog service.
http://www.nab.org/documents/resources/paperGarniekShamir.pdf

There are two dates of concern for 2012, and that is June 2012, and Feb 26, 2012.

[N1LAF]

And more...

27. Under this rule, in combination with the material degradation rule, discussed infra, a “hybrid” system (providing both analog and digital service) would also have to carry an HD broadcast signal in HD. As the Commission has previously explained, “there should be no perceivable difference between” SD digital and analog picture quality, so “our rules do not require cable operators * * * to carry an SD digital version of a broadcast station's signal, in addition to the analog version” as long as all subscribers can view the channel. See supra n. 12, Fourth Report & Order at para. 5.

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/02/16/2012-3703/carriage-of-digital-television-broadcast-signals-amendment-to-the-commissions-rules

[kf0rt]

OTA tuners aren't QAM. They're ATSC (8VSB).

However most TVs these days are coming with QAM tuners.

So to answer your question - yes, if you hook up your TV with a QAM tuner you should at least get the local channels. You need to set your TV to "digital cable" mode or just let it do a full channel "auto setup" kind of scan.

It may not work if you hook it up to a line dedicated for your cable modem since the cable companies usually put a trap on the line.

Comcast may have been lying to you... or not, if you're in an area where they have a waiver. Cablevision in NYC got a waiver for certain areas like the South Bronx. They claimed that there was rampant cable theft and that disconnecting customers in MDUs was difficult. They even threw in a global warming argument (fewer truck rolls, less carbon emissions) for good measure.

But the CSRs love to say "you have to get a box" because it's easy for them and the rentals are pretty much pure profit after the box is paid for. Our cable company (Service Electric Broadband) charges $13/month for a HD DVR box. I think some companies charge rental plus a DVR service fee (for what, exactly?)

Thanks for the info, Ryan.

Denver Comcast went all digital some time ago and we were told (rather emphatically) that every set would require a box. I never tested this. Have 4 TV's, nine bazillion channels and still nothing to watch. The living room set (46" HD) has a DVR box we've had for 3-4 years now; just works and we pay $17 or so a month just for the box. Have a 42" HD screen in the bedroom, too (no porn, long story) that has a HD converter ($9 a month?). The other two TV's are old and never used -- have DTA's. Shack TV is a 32" JVC toob (has handles!) that weighs about 125 pounds and hasn't worked since the last Comcast service call. They FUBAR'd my distribution system.

I need to get on the stick with this, but more and more, I'm starting to like the idea of no TV at all. It's an old fart thing. ;)

[N2RJ]

It's not an OF thing. A lot of people are doing without cable, young and old.

I have cable for Sprout (kids channel), discovery and NatGeo but I don't watch much else.

With an antenna and a roku you too can cut the cord.

[N2RJ]

More...

As the February 2009 deadline for transitioning to digital TV broadcasts comes ever nearer,
cable operators are preparing for a very different challenge: recreating the analog signal after the
DTV shift takes place. Even as broadcasters shut down analog broadcasts to free up spectrum for
reuse, as mandated by U.S. regulatory authorities, many cable operators are bound by "mustcarry"
agreements for providing broadcast channels in both digital and analog NTSC formats
through 2012. These operators are in the midst of implementing cost-effective strategies for
continued provision of analog service.
http://www.nab.org/documents/resources/paperGarniekShamir.pdf

There are two dates of concern for 2012, and that is June 2012, and Feb 26, 2012.

This really only concerns analog must carry. Comcast is going "all digital" in many areas because they want to free up the bandwidth for more HD channels, internet and VOD.

If they go all digital they need to provide the DTAs or free full featured equipment. Comcast has decided to do the former, Cablevision has decided to opt for the latter. However the requirement for waivers to encrypt the basic tier still stands.

Bear in mind though that the sales drones will tell you that you need a box, and that you need their box... they want to upsell you as much as possible.

[NQ6U]

It's not an OF thing. A lot of people are doing without cable, young and old.

I'd like to be doing without cable—it's the second-largest bill I have every month.

[kf0rt]

I'd like to be doing without cable—it's the second-largest bill I have every month.

I'm ready to buy a tent in the woods.

Our Comcast bill is about $210 a month. TV + Internet + VOIP telephone. SIL works for Comcast, so we get employee rates (ain't worth it, trust me). We rebate this back to the kids, so it's a wash. Mostly, the shit just works, though and I'll give Comcast credit for that. Very little downtime. When the asshole politicians call, caller ID shows up on the TV. I'm not hatin' on Comcast, but it's expensive.

OTOH, I have a five buck a month Tracfone...

[N2RJ]

I'd like to be doing without cable—it's the second-largest bill I have every month.

What do you watch? If you watch mostly the networks (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC), get an antenna.

[NQ6U]

What do you watch? If you watch mostly the networks (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC), get an antenna.

Most of my free time is either spent on a computer (I guess I should mention that part of the CATV bill does include Internet access) or a radio but the XYL enjoys TV. Unfortunately, neither one of us watches the local channels except for the occasional news story. But, at least I've finally convinced her to drop HBO.

[N2RJ]

If she loves lifetime or HGTV or similar, well then nothing you can really do. However, those channels do stream some of their stuff online.