MS FS revisited...got a yoke [Archive] - The Island Of Misfit Hams

W1GUH

01-31-2012, 01:32 PM

Finally did the right thing and got a yoke -- the smallest, cheapest CH products one. It's fine & yea, makes the experience much better. Well, DUH!!!!!

But it could get expensive. Now that I've got a yoke I'm yearning to get into aerobatics instead of just cruising around enjoying the scenery -- that means more FPS unless I want to scale back the settings (I don't.)

AND -- maybe a more powerful reason to upgrade...

That yoke came bundled with some add-on scenery that I'm really loving. For starters, it's MUCH BETTER integrated than other scenery add-ons I've tried. In fact, it wasn't obvious at first that I was seeing the new stuff when I ran the sim. Other add-ons were pretty bad in that regard. This one's golden.

But.....

It adds a lot more resolution to everything AND adds lots of scenery objects. You know what that adds up to -- significantly slower frame rates, of course. That's why I'm looking at gaming machines. I want hi-res scenery & good aerobatics.

And, I guess the lack of replies to my "force feedback" thread means nobody knows of a yoke with force feedback. I was kind of surpised at that.

As I understand it, in a real plane, the forces on the yoke depend on air speed -- you're feeling wind resistance on the control surfaces. Seems to me that somebody, somewhere would have recognized this and made a yoke that incorporates that. But, so far google-fu hasn't turned up anything. The spring loading in the CH yoke feels OK -- but it'd be nice to have the (simulated) real thing. Guess I'll keep looking!

(Can't you tell I'm retired with lots of play time on my hands?) :-D

W1GUH

01-31-2012, 01:35 PM

Hold the phone -- just did another Google and it looks like it exists!!! (But how much, I wonder?) Back with the details later.

W1GUH

01-31-2012, 01:46 PM

Not really. There's one by FlightSim (http://www.flightsim.com/main/notams10/illu0927.htm), but, since I can't find the price on the website I'm guessing it's stratospheric - especially after reading the description -- it's pretty much heavy-duty stuff.

And this site (http://forums.surclaro.com/topic3786.html) has some discussion on this topic. Seems there's lots of us FS pilots who would really like something like this. And it doesn't appear to be coming soon.

KC2UGV

02-01-2012, 08:00 AM

You most likely can get away with just a GPU upgrade. A new GPU changed the family desktop from a slug, into a machine ready for most games in Hi-res mode.

W1GUH

02-01-2012, 08:55 AM

Thanaks. Sometimes I wish I could do that, but here it's strictly laptops. Can't upgrade.

KC2UGV

02-01-2012, 09:27 AM

Thanaks. Sometimes I wish I could do that, but here it's strictly laptops. Can't upgrade.

Eeewww... Laptop for gaming. Only the most hardcore gamers I know use laptops, but that's because they have no issues dropping $4K on a laptop for gaming. Most I know have desktops for this reason (Graphics cards are upgraded bi-annually).

WØTKX

02-01-2012, 11:10 AM

Paul, a guy like you should come up with a DIY homebrew FS "console and controls" project.

Yer effin' retired, after all. :stickpoke: :lol:

I just upgraded this machine from a Radeon 3200 series to a 6780. Like WOW man. A few quick renderings in Blender to gauge the change... over 50% speed improvement.

New PS (from 350 to 700 watts) and another 3TB of storage for a total of 5.5TB in this PC. Poor little mini tower is crammed inside now, but the new supply came with a massive (quiet) fan.
I have enough disk space to do audio and video editing again! :clap:

W1GUH

02-01-2012, 11:45 AM

Oh, the guilt! Yea, guess I should...but if i'm gonna be doing that, it'll be in a BA!! This hi-tech stuff? Leave it for others!

Really looking forward to an upgraded machine. Sim Flew from LA to Vegas last night following the interstate and down low to watch the scenery. It was desert to the frame rate stayed acceptable, and the terrain was incredibly detailed! Some approached photo-looking. I really, really like that add-on. It's Discover USA by CH Products (http://www.chproducts.com/shop/page0.html). Scroll to the bottom for the description.

That came bundled with this yoke (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/y_fsyusb.html). That was a surprise, didn't know I was getting more than a yoke. That yoke is fine, but I wish it had more buttons. Or maybe I can figure out the software that modifies its configuration for the functions I want on the yoke.

The added scenery integrated perfectly with FS. As I said before, its subtle. Doesn't change the overall look at all and I wasn't even aware that I was using it until I started noticing:

Many, many more buildings.
Much more traffic on the highways - with detailed vehicles if you get low enough to see that.
Very nice night lighting.
Much better terrain.

It could also be that local streets are more true-to-life, too. Haven't really checked that but there's less of that "checkerboard" look to the default scenery.

Flying down the strip in Vegas at night in an ultra-light was breathtaking!

But, of course, at the expense of frame rate in a machine that's marginal to start with.

Happy landings!

Paul, a guy like you should come up with a DIY homebrew FS "console and controls" project.

Yer effin' retired, after all. :stickpoke: :lol:

I just upgraded this machine from a Radeon 3200 series to a 6780. Like WOW man. A few quick renderings in Blender to gauge the change... over 50% speed improvement.

New PS (from 350 to 700 watts) and another 3TB of storage for a total of 5.5TB in this PC. Poor little mini tower is crammed inside now, but the new supply came with a massive (quiet) fan.
I have enough disk space to do audio and video editing again! :clap:

W1GUH

02-01-2012, 11:49 AM

Eeewww... Laptop for gaming. Only the most hardcore gamers I know use laptops, but that's because they have no issues dropping $4K on a laptop for gaming. Most I know have desktops for this reason (Graphics cards are upgraded bi-annually).

I've seen some wild numbers posted here for high-end gaming laptops. Where the heck do those come from? The top M17 with some upgrades comes to about $2700 including a 4 year service plan. Where the heck do you come up with 4K/

The top 17

KC2UGV

02-01-2012, 12:14 PM

I've seen some wild numbers posted here for high-end gaming laptops. Where the heck do those come from? The top M17 with some upgrades comes to about $2700 including a 4 year service plan. Where the heck do you come up with 4K/

The top 17

Because, while it's called a "Gaming machine", it truly isn't. It'll have some sort of compromise. A "gaming machine" has at least a 4GB graphics RAM, with a 3GHz GPU, and 16x PCI-x. No laptop out there (AFAIK) has a 16x PCI-x slot.

W1GUH

02-01-2012, 02:18 PM

Because, while it's called a "Gaming machine", it truly isn't. It'll have some sort of compromise. A "gaming machine" has at least a 4GB graphics RAM, with a 3GHz GPU, and 16x PCI-x. No laptop out there (AFAIK) has a 16x PCI-x slot.

Yea, but not everybody takes it to that extreme.

KC2UGV

02-01-2012, 02:29 PM

Yea, but not everybody takes it to that extreme.

Most gamers do. Hence, the "gaming" line. At least a 16x PCI-x slot, which isn't all that extreme. It's standard on all desktops. 4x slots are 2nd generation.

I mean, the 4GB of graphics RAM isn't really all that extreme, either. I'm not a gamer, and got a card for about $100 that has 3GB.

kf0rt

02-01-2012, 03:35 PM

n2ize

02-01-2012, 03:38 PM

n2ize

02-01-2012, 03:40 PM

Most gamers do. Hence, the "gaming" line. At least a 16x PCI-x slot, which isn't all that extreme. It's standard on all desktops. 4x slots are 2nd generation.

I mean, the 4GB of graphics RAM isn't really all that extreme, either. I'm not a gamer, and got a card for about $100 that has 3GB.

$100 will get you a decent graphics card that will enable most modern day desktops to run a lot of games flawlessly. At the same time most true gamers won't be caught dead with a $100 graphics adapter.

n2ize

02-01-2012, 03:47 PM

Oh, the guilt! Yea, guess I should...but if i'm gonna be doing that, it'll be in a BA!! This hi-tech stuff? Leave it for others!

Really looking forward to an upgraded machine. Sim Flew from LA to Vegas last night following the interstate and down low to watch the scenery. It was desert to the frame rate stayed acceptable, and the terrain was incredibly detailed! Some approached photo-looking. I really, really like that add-on. It's Discover USA by CH Products (http://www.chproducts.com/shop/page0.html). Scroll to the bottom for the description.

That came bundled with this yoke (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/y_fsyusb.html). That was a surprise, didn't know I was getting more than a yoke. That yoke is fine, but I wish it had more buttons. Or maybe I can figure out the software that modifies its configuration for the functions I want on the yoke.

The added scenery integrated perfectly with FS. As I said before, its subtle. Doesn't change the overall look at all and I wasn't even aware that I was using it until I started noticing:

Many, many more buildings.
Much more traffic on the highways - with detailed vehicles if you get low enough to see that.
Very nice night lighting.
Much better terrain.

It could also be that local streets are more true-to-life, too. Haven't really checked that but there's less of that "checkerboard" look to the default scenery.

Flying down the strip in Vegas at night in an ultra-light was breathtaking!

But, of course, at the expense of frame rate in a machine that's marginal to start with.

Happy landings!

What airline do you work for ? Years ago when I was in to FS I flew for a small vintage airlines. We flew only old prop driven airliners. I was pretty good with a DC3 and an Electra but I was also getting familiar with a Constellation. We flew on instruments, mostly ADF and VOR. GPS was discouraged but permitted. My DC3 was equipped with GPS but I tried not to use it however at times it did simplify navigation quite a bit. I flew a lot of flights between Westchester Airport and Portand Me. It was a nice short, "get in and get out" run as I rarely had time for cross country or international flights. Real time weather was nice too. I had the airport charts and I could do the Portland/West run with my eyes closed. Haven''t flown any FS in a while. I'd have to get used to it all over again.

W1GUH

02-01-2012, 07:02 PM

Most serious gamers maybe...

My XYL is a 400th degree Black Belt in WoW (or whatevah; I know it's WoW) and it runs on a "piece of crap" computer I built 3 years ago for < $400. It's barely a notch above using the mobo graphics as I recall, but seems to run fine.

There must be some games out there that push things a lot harder than WoW.

Thinking the same thing. The world of "Gamers" may not be about gaming, really? Maybe more about having the baddest-ass hardware there is, regardless of need?

The words I read about the AW machine I'm considering had some gaudy frame rates, some were in the realm of complete overkill. Don't know the games they were talking about , but, assuming that they were testing against the worst-case, there's very little need for more than that. Fact is, the "17 something" is probably good for a few years, performance-wise.

kf0rt

02-01-2012, 08:54 PM

Thinking the same thing. The world of "Gamers" may not be about gaming, really? Maybe more about having the baddest-ass hardware there is, regardless of need?

The words I read about the AW machine I'm considering had some gaudy frame rates, some were in the realm of complete overkill. Don't know the games they were talking about , but, assuming that they were testing against the worst-case, there's very little need for more than that. Fact is, the "17 something" is probably good for a few years, performance-wise.

Wife says she has 4 level 85 characters, 1 level 84, a 61 and a 54 in WoW. I have no idea what this means (she says "I don't do dungeons").

I do think that a lot of this may be about the equipment -- hams should understand this, I guess, eh? I see water-cooled CPU's and fancy lighting that probably doesn't enhance the gaming experience much.

Avoid most of the game stuff m'self (burnout from Space Invaders on an Apple ][ a long time ago). It's a fear thing... If I got into that, nobody would see me for years; my toenails would resemble those of Howard Hughes and I'd be a useless blob; a slave to the pixels.

But heck, it's a hobby for most and as much as I don't understand our fascination with pro sports, those who can afford the leisure deserve to spend it however they wish.

Only game on my "badass" old system here is FSX. I don't fly much, but it is fun (crash more than I land, but nobody gets hurt). Home system is a 3-4 year old box I built from scratch (thanks, Newegg). Intel "bad axe" motherboard, 4GB RAM (paltry these days); 3 TB internal disk and another 5-6 TB external, including an external 2 TB Synology RAID backup system (that thing is amazing). Runs Win7 32-bit and "just works." Dual monitor (want more). My rationalization is photography -- have a few big ongoing "hobby" projects and the system is designed to avoid losing anything while storing huge quantities of JPG files. Uh, not porn, for what that may be worth.

Someone needs to ask, though... Why the laptop requirement? I've been in the computer biz for about 35 years now and have never owned a real laptop. Got an Acer Aspire One netbook that is sometimes useful while traveling, but almost never use it.

W1GUH

02-01-2012, 09:59 PM

No need whatsoever for a desktop. Not a computer hobbyist at all -- the thought of building a desktop is a complete non-desire. Been in hi-tech for 40 years and I've done enough of that for a lifetime. Just want to pays my money and gets a machine.

Given that, there's just no reason NOT to do laptops exclusively. They offer a whole lot more convenience than a desktop does and, since, even if I had a desktop, a laptop would still be a requirement for travel, the desktop would ADD expense but not add any functionality for normal computer stuff. Yea, you can't upgrade the graphics in a laptop like you can a desktop -- that's a reason to go for overkill if you're planning to mess around with games (won't ever say gaming again!). Overkill today is tomorrow's slow-poke.

My first computer (laptop) was a top-of-the-line Dell back in '02. It was good for the most intense games for close to 7-8 years. More precisely, FSX was the first FS that I didn't really have the power for. That's completely acceptable for me. And I never once regretted that I didn't have a desktop. Found out you can do anything on a laptop that you can do with a desktop, but with far less muss an fuss. AND, they come standard with a buit-in UPS.

Hope that satisfies your curiosity.

KC2UGV

02-02-2012, 07:51 AM

You're seeing one reason for a desktop vs. laptop: You now need to replace the laptop; when with a desktop, you could have just upgraded the GPU :)

And, for travel, get a cheap notebook, and use Logmein to get the power of your desktop :) If you lose your laptop, no worries, nothing on it.

W1GUH

02-02-2012, 08:56 AM

Well, Corey, that's what you would do. Now you know what I do! Perfect case of YMMV!

Cheers!

KC2UGV

02-02-2012, 09:43 AM

Well, Corey, that's what you would do. Now you know what I do! Perfect case of YMMV!

Cheers!

True, YMMV.

WØTKX

02-02-2012, 09:56 AM

I finally broke down and got my first laptop 3 years ago. It suffered an early (accidental) demise. Not worth repairing, but I got some insurance payola for the incident, and I picked up my second laptop. Don't think I would have cared as much a few years ago, but the prevelance of WiFi makes it possible to...

Take my laptop with me to read during breakfast "out" instead of a newspaper.

I really like that. :yes:

Plays movies really well. Portable ops with radio toys is good too.

Dual Core refurb, <$450 about a year and a half ago.

n2ize

02-02-2012, 11:52 AM

No need whatsoever for a desktop. Not a computer hobbyist at all -- the thought of building a desktop is a complete non-desire. Been in hi-tech for 40 years and I've done enough of that for a lifetime. Just want to pays my money and gets a machine.

.

Oh, you'll be getting your fair share of "hi tech" involvement with a laptop. Wait till something simple like the CPU fan goes bad soon after the machine is out of warranty and you end up having to spend hours ripping apart the entire laptop down to its guts just to change a $2.00 fan and then a couple more hours re-assembling. See my "Replacing a CPU fan" thread for details. What would basically have been a 5 minute job on my desktop was a 3-4 hour job on the laptop. Well at least I learned what the guts of a laptop look like. :)

Or, make sure the laptop you buy has an easy to replace CPU fan... :-D;)

W1GUH

02-02-2012, 11:58 AM

kf0rt

02-02-2012, 12:09 PM

Would you like some chamomile tea? :rofl:

W1GUH

02-02-2012, 12:13 PM

Sure would....could use it. Thanks!

n2ize

02-02-2012, 02:25 PM

Always get extended service, no need to mess with anything. Again, for those of you who seem to not have seen this remark,

I never, ever mess with hi-tech hardware here. Done that so much at work, I just don't wanna even think about it. My computer is a tool, like a screwdriver, NOT a mess around with it hobby! If I'm messin' with hardware, you know it's a vintage radio!

YMMV, of course. MIne does!

Working on a desktop (or even a laptop) these days is just about as easy simple as changing a light bulb. Plus, why pay extra for extended service contracts or for a tech when you can fix it yourself ? Personally, I hate, loathe and despise working on computers and changing hardware and configuring software when I could instead do something that I find more interesting. But the way I see it if I am going to use these machines I am going to have to fix them myself. Take the laptop where i changed the fan for example. The replacement fan = heat sink cost me $8.00. All I had to do was install it which, took some time the first time around but went smoothly. So for $8.00 (far less than the cost of an extended service contract) I fixed the machine. And, had I handed it over to a tech to fix I would have paid $40.00 for the fan + well over $150.00 for the tech's labour and service change. Not to mention the time the machine would have spent out of service and in the tech's shop along with personal data. This way $8.00 bucks and a couple of hours work and viola' up and running in no time.

YMMV, of course. MIne does!

No, I insist that you do it my way !! You MUST build a massive desktop and repair it frequently. The ONLY way to do it is My WAY!! MY WAY is the right way !! I want to see pictures of you building that new desktop system by no later than Monday of next week !! :mrgreen:

W1GUH

02-02-2012, 02:36 PM

:rofl:

Thanks! I needed that.

n2ize

02-02-2012, 07:21 PM

:rofl:

Thanks! I needed that.

No problem. Glad I made you laugh. Hey man, it's all good. if messing around with hardware isn't your thing then that's cool everybody has their own interests. My bag is more along the lines of writing programs to do computations , mathematical and graphical modeling, communications, networking, and some basic games. But one thing I hate is having to mess with hardware and/or systems administration. I cringe at upgrades and repairs but... gotta do em. Years ago I was into MSFS and I even worked for a virtual vintage airline complete with flight plans, schedules, charts, etc. We flew the old propliners round the globe. Who knows, maybe I'll get back into that again. Bringing a vintage Lockheed Constellation out of Idlewild and cross country to LA was fun. Wish I had the time to do that nowadays.

K7SGJ

02-02-2012, 08:06 PM

W1GUH

02-02-2012, 08:08 PM

There's a new sim that MS says is going to be a free download with a limited geographical area. Details here (http://www.microsoft.com/games/flight/#press-takes_to_skies).

Don't think it's released yet, but they are taking sign-ups for the beta version.

KC2UGV

02-02-2012, 09:13 PM

n2ize

02-02-2012, 10:19 PM

Hm... Nothing about a Linux version...

Hah... it's Micro$$aft... the biggest opponent to open source and freedom... Check out flightgear... it looks interesting.

W1GUH

02-03-2012, 12:48 AM

Or, you can turn bi-os. Darn...that's been taken, well, bi-something! Get the best of both worlds!

n2ize

02-03-2012, 05:09 AM

I might try the MSFS. No Linux version... no problem... I'll just have to run it under Windows as I have to do with MSFS anyway. I'd also like to check out FlightGear and a few other sims that look interesting.

NQ6U

02-03-2012, 09:49 AM

Hm... Nothing about a Linux version...

Try X-Plane (http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/landing/). Download demos for Windows, OS X and Linux here (http://www.x-plane.com/downloads/x-plane_10_demo/).

KC2UGV

02-03-2012, 10:25 AM

Try X-Plane (http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/landing/). Download demos for Windows, OS X and Linux here (http://www.x-plane.com/downloads/x-plane_10_demo/).

Got to check that one out! They even have an android version: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.laminarresearch.xplane_default

NQ6U

02-03-2012, 07:14 PM

Got to check that one out! They even have an android version: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.laminarresearch.xplane_default

I have the iOS version. It's limited, of course, but still pretty fun.

kf0rt

02-03-2012, 09:28 PM

I'm still waiting for Paul to tell us his yoke.

W1GUH

02-03-2012, 09:56 PM

Whatever it is, I think it's pretty much been on me in this thread! ;):-D

What's the difference between a whore and crack?

You can clean the whore's crack, but you can't clean the crack's whore!

Taxi driver humor.

W1GUH

02-03-2012, 10:06 PM

Try X-Plane (http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/landing/). Download demos for Windows, OS X and Linux here (http://www.x-plane.com/downloads/x-plane_10_demo/).

That looked very, very promising back in my Ubuntu days. Problem was...it was incompatible with the particular brand new version of Ubuntu I was running -- to the point where it messed up a system file; took me, literally, days to get the info off the web & fix my Ubuntu.

Ok, Corey...musta been my fault, right? Inexperienced with Linux...inexperienced with Ubuntu...sounds like a user FU to me! There, I said it first -- you don't have to. But you probably will! <---- Just bustin'. In a very good mood tonight.

So, anyway, never got a chance to really check out XPlane. Did try the windows version -- that one installed just fine and I tried a flight. But what happened was it was going to be a pretty steep learning curve and I wasn't convinced that it would surpass FSX, so I punted and stayed true to the Flight Sim.

Re: MicroShaft. Probably is an accurate term wrt most things (Like, the ungodly expense of Office for home - satisfied Open Office user here!). But in the case of the Flight Simulator, IMHO (YMMV), they really, really get it right! IMHO, for a Flight Sim that is that advanced and full-featured, the price is a huge bargain. And when you factor in the (Hours of fun)/buck, it's phenomenal!

n2ize

02-04-2012, 06:25 AM

Re: MicroShaft. Probably is an accurate term wrt most things (Like, the ungodly expense of Office for home - satisfied Open Office user here!). But in the case of the Flight Simulator, IMHO (YMMV), they really, really get it right! IMHO, for a Flight Sim that is that advanced and full-featured, the price is a huge bargain. And when you factor in the (Hours of fun)/buck, it's phenomenal!

From what I understood a couple of years ago Micro$haft pretty much axed it's Flight Sim development team.I believe that nowadays it is outsourced to a third party developer.

W1GUH

02-04-2012, 04:01 PM

Could be...I just don't know. The website seems to have maintained some semblance of continuity, tho.

n2ize

02-04-2012, 09:15 PM

Could be...I just don't know. The website seems to have maintained some semblance of continuity, tho.

Dunno. Few years ago I heard M$ laid off most of it's FS development staff and was shooting more for a gaming market as opposed to a serious flight simulator market.

W1GUH

02-05-2012, 01:12 AM

That's what they're saying Microsoft Flight is, more of a game but retaining the quality of the sim.

W1GUH

02-05-2012, 10:58 AM

Neglected to mention that that scenery that came with the yoke also includes Europe.

ad4mg

02-05-2012, 11:02 AM

Neglected to mention that that scenery that came with the yoke also includes Europe.

I have the FS-X "Gold Edition", which comes with what they call the expansion pack. I never installed that 2nd DVD. This thread has sparked my interest again, so I think I'll reboot to Windows and see what the deal is!

n2ize

02-05-2012, 11:50 AM

That's what they're saying Microsoft Flight is, more of a game but retaining the quality of the sim.

Most of the sims that people run in their homes are games when compared with the professional sims used in pilot training. MSFS, Xplane, Flightgear, etc will reach you some of the basics of flight procedues, navigation, etc. but that's about all. Anyone who thinks that can fly a real plane or helicopters even after many hours in MSFS, etc. is mistaken.

W1GUH

02-05-2012, 12:10 PM

Most of the sims that people run in their homes are games when compared with the professional sims used in pilot training. MSFS, Xplane, Flightgear, etc will reach you some of the basics of flight procedues, navigation, etc. but that's about all. Anyone who thinks that can fly a real plane or helicopters even after many hours in MSFS, etc. is mistaken.

Had a great conversation about that with a great old female pilot who was in her 70's. Met here at a book signing for her book "Around the Rim" about an early aviation marketing effort that flew "around the rim" of the US. She was a lot of fun to talk with. Said that when her husband was still with us they flew Lear jets as a team. Said they LOVED to rib pilots in other aircraft about the Lear's ability to fly over 40,000 feet when they couldn't. Also made a joke about "hope you're not disappointed -- there's no sex in it." I replied with something iike, "Well, with a titlle like "around the rim" -- might not need any!"

Anyway, she asked me if I was a pilot. I said, No, not yeat anyway. Then added, "But I fly the MS FS a lot." She smiled and nodded and said, "There ya go!" Guess it's got at least some cred amongst pro pilots. With good reason, IMHO. She added the same caveat you mentioned, "Don't think you can fly a real plane after that." Of course -- lots of new stuff to get used to when you get upstairs, for sure. But it does familiarize one with a lot of the basics, as you said. Maybe the biggest one is the physics of flying. I started out with the Sublogic version (Bruce Artwick) on my Commodore 64. Came with no instructional materials; had to buy an official FAA flight training manual to learn how to fly. Even that early, first edition of the FS was true to flying physics. Plane responded to control inputs just like the training manual said it would.