Nanny Targeting E-Cigarettes...

[n2ize]

Seems like one of the leading anti-smoking Gestapo Nazi's now has e-cigarettes in their sights. They pushed for a ban on the use of e-cigarettes in no-smoking areas in NY. But it won't stop there. They will push for a ban on the sale and possession of these devices as well.

Think of the children...

http://ash.org/nyecigban.html

And an interesting article on the workings of ASH and their goal to totally ban the sale and use moist snuff and e-cigs (i.e. vaping).

http://www.snuson.com/forum/showthread.php?17926-The-Anti-Smoking-Nazis

[N8YX]

NYC wins again.

[n2ize]

NYC wins again.

I believe this is actually statewide. the anti-tobacco gestapo ASH wants e-cigs banned worldwide. And they have a lot more clout than many would imagine.

[W5GA]

Grow your own tobacco.

[N8YX]

Grow your own tobacco.
Penalties for that can't be any stiffer than for marijuana cultivation, right?

[w3bny]

Arent like smokes in NYC like 100 bucks a carton. Unless you get them from the rez or that guy behind the bodega.

[W1GUH]

Seems like one of the leading anti-smoking Gestapo Nazi's now has e-cigarettes in their sights. They pushed for a ban on the use of e-cigarettes in no-smoking areas in NY. But it won't stop there. They will push for a ban on the sale and possession of these devices as well.

Think of the children...

http://ash.org/nyecigban.html



And an interesting article on the workings of ASH and their goal to totally ban the sale and use moist snuff and e-cigs (i.e. vaping).

http://www.snuson.com/forum/showthread.php?17926-The-Anti-Smoking-Nazis

Clear evidence that this isn't a health issue, but people forcing their own morals on others.

Yea, ren....probably $100 or more. I get 'em out of state whenever possible.

[w3bny]

Seriously though. If you cant smoke a live smoke legally you shouldnt be able to e-smoke either. Yeah its only water vapor yadda-yadda but next come the dippers and chewers on the bus and it just gets to be a big pain. If you're jonseing that hard, go to CVS and get a pack of Nicorette. It will take the edge off till you can go smoke. Thats how I survived TAD/TDY travel when I did smoke.

[WX7P]

I don't want to smell your tobacco smoke and have it stink up my clothes. Gestapo? Right. I'd flip that around on you. You're advocation forcing your smelly addiction on others. Who's the Gestapo here?

If one wants to kill themselves with cigarettes, that's their business. I shouldn't have to share the pain. Do it on your own time in private, or in a well ventilated area.

It's nice to go into a public place and not have it smelling like an ashtray.

In California, smoking has been banned in restaurants for a long time. The dining pleasure has been enhanced significantly without smelly tobacco smoke.

[WX7P]

Clear evidence that this isn't a health issue, but people forcing their own morals on others.


No, it IS a health issues. Second hand smoke has been shown to be harmful.

Shall I send YOU my dry cleaning bill because your smoke has permeated MY clothing? Who's forcing what here? The smokers are trying to continue to force their nasty habit on others.

[W1GUH]

Yea, let's argue about trivial stuff so we ignore the important stuff! After all, the gov't is there for the convenience of whoever has the loudest voice, right? To protect those individuals from any possible inconvenience no matter how inconsequential or irrational? Based on humongous propagannda campaigns, right?

Lots of offensive stuff about lots of individuals. Obese fat taking up way too much room while stuffing down 3 big macs for lunch. That asshole with his/her cell phone who insists on making you listen to his/her inane conversations? The prick who simply cannot speak without spewing venom? The selfish assholes who condemn anyone who doesn't think just like they do? How about laws against all that offensive behavior?

[KC2UGV]

I believe this is actually statewide. the anti-tobacco gestapo ASH wants e-cigs banned worldwide. And they have a lot more clout than many would imagine.

It's not. It's by county.

[WX7P]

Yea, let's argue about trivial stuff so we ignore the important stuff! After all, the gov't is there for the convenience of whoever has the loudest voice, right? To protect those individuals from any possible inconvenience no matter how inconsequential or irrational? Based on humongous propagannda campaigns, right?

Lots of offensive stuff about lots of individuals. Obese fat taking up way too much room while stuffing down 3 big macs for lunch. That asshole with his/her cell phone who insists on making you listen to his/her inane conversations? The prick who simply cannot speak without spewing venom? The selfish assholes who condemn anyone who doesn't think just like they do? How about laws against all that offensive behavior?

Do you always have to answer posts with the victim routine and the bullshit "venom" number? You ego just can't handle someone disagreeing with you. Tough shit, Paul. Your pretty sensitive if you think disagreement is "condemning".

You're the one that spouted the silly comment about forcing morals on other people. Smelling your goddamn cigarette smoke is more than just a mere "inconvenience". I shouldn't have to participate in your addiction.

I reject your "prick/venom" argument. When you pull this shit, you're basically saying agree with me or you're an asshole. That doesn't work.

If you can't handle a little pushback, don't post.

BTW, how can you smoke if you have cancer? That makes absolutely no sense.

[W1GUH]

I see you recognized yourself. Congrats! Maybe your supply of venom is actually limited, and eventually you'll run out and be a decent person.


Do you always have to answer posts with the victim routine and the bullshit "venom" number? You ego just can't handle someone disagreeing with you. Tough shit, Paul. Your pretty sensitive if you think disagreement is "condemning".

You're the one that spouted the silly comment about forcing morals on other people. Smelling your goddamn cigarette smoke is more than just a mere "inconvenience". I shouldn't have to participate in your addiction.

I reject your "prick/venom" argument. When you pull this shit, you're basically saying agree with me or you're an asshole. That doesn't work.

If you can't handle a little pushback, don't post.

BTW, how can you smoke if you have cancer? That makes absolutely no sense.

[KC2UGV]

Smelling your goddamn cigarette smoke is more than just a mere "inconvenience". I shouldn't have to participate in your addiction.

You can't smell any smoke from an e-cigarette, as there are no combustion products.

But, as an aside, if an establishment allows smoking, you are not forced to choose to go to that establishment. One of the main objections I still have to the ban of smoking in bars.

Nobody is forcing you to go to a bar. And, if you go to a bar, it's kinda expected to be around smoke.

[N8YX]

Laws against offensive behavior? Britain has that; Google "ASBO", please.

I'm in agreement with Jan about not wanting to smell smokers' efflux but feel that this can be accomplished without large-scale government involvement.

[WX7P]

I see you recognized yourself. Congrats! Maybe your supply of venom is actually limited, and eventually you'll run out and be a decent person.

You're not as slick as you think you are.

I don't need or want your approval. Your tactics are horseshit, and demonizing me because I disagree with you makes you look extremely small.

[WX7P]

You can't smell any smoke from an e-cigarette, as there are no combustion products.

But, as an aside, if an establishment allows smoking, you are not forced to choose to go to that establishment. One of the main objections I still have to the ban of smoking in bars.

Nobody is forcing you to go to a bar. And, if you go to a bar, it's kinda expected to be around smoke.

I wasn't referring to e-cigs, just tobacco products.

I don't go to bars, so that's not an issue for me. Besides, in CA, you can't legally smoke in bars anyway. Actually, you can't smoke in office buildings either since the '80's. I think that's great. I used to sit next to a guy who chain smoked Lucky Strikes all day. I'd come home smelling like smoke. That ain't right.

[KC2UGV]

I wasn't referring to e-cigs, just tobacco products.

I don't go to bars, so that's not an issue for me. Besides, in CA, you can't legally smoke in bars anyway. Actually, you can't smoke in office buildings either since the '80's. I think that's great. I used to sit next to a guy who chain smoked Lucky Strikes all day. I'd come home smelling like smoke. That ain't right.

In regards to offices, I agree. But the ban on smoking in public is kind of ridiculous. Erie County, prior to the all out ban, allowed smoking, but required the non-smokers to have a separate area, with separate ventilation systems.

Everyone was happy about it.

Then, the nannies got involved, and out-right banned it in every restaurant/bar/etc. Now, that was silly.

[n2ize]

No, it IS a health issues. Second hand smoke has been shown to be harmful.

Actually it hasn't. At least not in a way that can be deemed confident. Most of the "research" done on second smoke has been in the form of questionares asking questions like "how long have you been around smokers (often, occaisionally, etc)", "about how many day/week do you spend near smokers", "did your father / mother smoke
etc. Many of the questions are ambiguous For example how much of "often", did your father smoke ? yeah, maybe, but maybe he smoked when he was outside...



Shall I send YOU my dry cleaning bill because your smoke has permeated MY clothing? Who's forcing what here? The smokers are trying to continue to force their nasty habit on others.

The whole question here is about e-cigarettes which don't produce clouds of smoke. besides, isn't compromise somewhat better than forcing a ban on people. Restaurants can have ventilation systems, non-smoking rooms, etc. Besides, a bar/restaurant is not a public place. If you don;t like the smoke that much don;t go in and let the owner know why.

[WX7P]

In regards to offices, I agree. But the ban on smoking in public is kind of ridiculous. Erie County, prior to the all out ban, allowed smoking, but required the non-smokers to have a separate area, with separate ventilation systems.

Everyone was happy about it.

Then, the nannies got involved, and out-right banned it in every restaurant/bar/etc. Now, that was silly.

We used to have smoking/ no smoking sections here in CA. They didn't work, it didn't have anything to do with "nannies", it just didn't work. They never did install separate ventilation systems here, and I suspect the restaurant industry would push back hard on that because of costs involved.

I don't think the smoking ban on restaurants is silly at all. I should be able to enjoy a meal without having to smell cigarette smoke, completely ruins the experience. Bars on the other hand, I would probably compromise there, simply because NOT smoking in bars seems to ruin the experience for people that like bars. Smoking bans outside seem excessive too.

Hey, if you want to smoke, good for you. I shouldn't have to participate in a closed environment because YOU smoke.

[KC2UGV]

Seriously though. If you cant smoke a live smoke legally you shouldnt be able to e-smoke either. Yeah its only water vapor yadda-yadda but next come the dippers and chewers on the bus and it just gets to be a big pain. If you're jonseing that hard, go to CVS and get a pack of Nicorette. It will take the edge off till you can go smoke. Thats how I survived TAD/TDY travel when I did smoke.

So, you can use one nicotine product with no byproducts, but not another? What's the difference?

[n2ize]

I don't want to smell your tobacco smoke and have it stink up my clothes. Gestapo? Right. I'd flip that around on you. You're advocation forcing your smelly addiction on others. Who's the Gestapo here?



No, they are a Gestapo because they go far beyond preventing smoking in public places. They don;t want you to smoke in your car, in your home, or to be able to even buy or possess tobacco legally. If you leave it to ASH tobacco will be an illegal drug much like marijuana. And, if they are not a gestapo then why are they so venomously attacking e-cigarettes which don't produce the smoke they find so obnoxious. Why are they so vehemently against moist snuff like Swedish SNU's that produce no smoke whatsoever ? No, it's not simply about protecting non-smokers from :"secondhand" or "thirdhand" smoke. It's about control. They even state it in their mission statement, their goal is to control tobacco via any means possible including the force of law. In other words, if they don;t want you using an e-cigarette, even in your own home, they are going to FORCE you to stop whether you like it or not. That to me sounds Nazi-like. Then again, Hitler wanted to ban smoking too.

[W1GUH]

Keep spewing! You're probably doing yourself a world of good. But it might be more productive if you dealt with you anger by not taking it out on others and directing it towards where it really matters.

Spew! Spew! Get rid of it. It'll do ya good. Loving it here!




You're not as slick as you think you are.

I don't need or want your approval. Your tactics are horseshit, and demonizing me because I disagree with you makes you look extremely small.

[WX7P]

Actually it hasn't. At least not in a way that can be deemed confident. Most of the "research" done on second smoke has been in the form of questionares asking questions like "how long have you been around smokers (often, occaisionally, etc)", "about how many day/week do you spend near smokers", "did your father / mother smoke
etc. Many of the questions are ambiguous For example how much of "often", did your father smoke ? yeah, maybe, but maybe he smoked when he was outside...

Disagree...

http://www.no-smoke.org/pdf/SHSBibliography.pdf


The whole question here is about e-cigarettes which don't produce clouds of smoke. besides, isn't compromise somewhat better than forcing a ban on people. Restaurants can have ventilation systems, non-smoking rooms, etc. Besides, a bar/restaurant is not a public place. If you don't like the smoke that much don't go in and let the owner know why.

I redirected toward tobacco burning, I don't have an objection to e-cigs.

As for the don't go there argument, so non-smokers are held hostage to smokers? That doesn't make sense. You can eat without smoking, but a non-smoker can't enjoy your meal without sucking down other people's smoke? As I said, I get the bar thing, but if someone is eating, they aren't going to be smoking. When they are done eating, they can go outside to smoke.

[n2ize]

Here is an interesting and rather well written essay on smoking by Joe Jackson (yes, the musician). Now I will say off had (before I am accused) that this is not peer reviewed science and I do disagree with some of what he says in this essay. In particular he does downplay the important role statistics does play in making certain well founded conclusions. However, he does bring out some excellent points on the nature of smoking, why some people smoke and how the portrayal of the smoker in the anti-smokers eyes is not necessarily a valid one. He also questions the validity of some of the claims regarding the hazards of secondhand smoke. In any event, I am quite impressed with his essay. It is well written and raises some interesting points.

http://www.joejackson.com/smokingissue.htm

[WX7P]

Keep spewing! You're probably doing yourself a world of good. But it might be more productive if you dealt with you anger by not taking it out on others and directing it towards where it really matters.

Spew! Spew! Get rid of it. It'll do ya good. Loving it here!

Oldest canard in the book. "You're angry!" Uh, huh.

No, you're frequently wrong, and hate being told about it.

Grow up, Paul. Stop being a faux victim. You'll like yourself much better.

[W1GUH]

Feeling better? Guess you're not even aware that you DO spew venom. Well, you'll learn somedayl



Oldest canard in the book. "You're angry!" Uh, huh.

No, you're frequently wrong, and hate being told about it.

Grow up, Paul. Stop being a faux victim. You'll like yourself much better.

[WX7P]

Feeling better? Guess you're not even aware that you DO spew venom. Well, you'll learn somedayl

You still here?

Your one note band is really boring.

[w3bny]

So, you can use one nicotine product with no byproducts, but not another? What's the difference?

The difference is...

1. One stinks to high heaven and the other dosnt.
2. One fills a cup up with spit and other ghastly things and the other dosnt.
3. I can see a e-cig in the club. no big deal. Just pushing the limit of the spirit of the law.
4. Its all fucking academic to me. I quit all that shit 10 years ago.

Seriously, I dread...DREAD going to my in-laws house. They smoke constantly from sun-up to sunset. one turns out one is lit. everything is brown in there house and everything stinks. And if you go inside, you will stink in seconds. I cleaned a computer for them, everything inside was yellowish brown. Horrible. Everytime we visit and leave i apologize to my wife for making her our house and my cats smell like that. You want to smoke in your private property, have it. Just please dont ruin my dinner with your newport. Oh and before you say it. you leave! Im there to eat not to smell your damn smoke.

[n2ize]

Disagree...

http://www.no-smoke.org/pdf/SHSBibliography.pdf


Without reading each study carefully it's hard to say whether these studies do show any connection between second hand smoke and health risks. I am sure there are some risks. But, from the descriptions of some of these studies I tend to suspect they are along the lines of what I described, namely people that fall within certain disease categories are given questionnaires. I do strongly suspect the "'deadly dangers " of secondhand smoke are being grossly exaggerated by organizations like ASH with a direct goal of making tobacco (and even non tobacco like e-cigs) completely illegal world wide. In fact that is pretty much their stated mission.



I redirected toward tobacco burning, I don't have an objection to e-cigs.

But the anti-smoke groups like ASH certainly do. Which is why I call them Gestapo.



As for the don't go there argument, so non-smokers are held hostage to smokers? That doesn't make sense. You can eat without smoking, but a non-smoker can't enjoy your meal without sucking down other people's smoke? As I said, I get the bar thing, but if someone is eating, they aren't going to be smoking. When they are done eating, they can go outside to smoke.

If restaurants lost enough revenue because non-smokers don't show up rest assured they will take measures to accommodate non-smokers. With proper ventilation and air filtering non-smoking sections and non-smoking rooms can be very effective.

Heck, these days I don't take tobacco in any form and yet I find these Gestapo like tactics rather disturbing. If anything they will breed resentment as opposed to true solutions. We have enough of Nanny running every phase of our lives. People are growing weary of it. I know plenty of non-smokers who are getting irritated by the anticss of organizations like ASH and their desire to control everyone.

[n2ize]

The difference is...

1. One stinks to high heaven and the other dosnt.
2. One fills a cup up with spit and other ghastly things and the other dosnt.
3. I can see a e-cig in the club. no big deal. Just pushing the limit of the spirit of the law.
4. Its all fucking academic to me. I quit all that shit 10 years ago.

Seriously, I dread...DREAD going to my in-laws house. They smoke constantly from sun-up to sunset. one turns out one is lit. everything is brown in there house and everything stinks. And if you go inside, you will stink in seconds. I cleaned a computer for them, everything inside was yellowish brown. Horrible. Everytime we visit and leave i apologize to my wife for making her our house and my cats smell like that. You want to smoke in your private property, have it. Just please dont ruin my dinner with your newport. Oh and before you say it. you leave! Im there to eat not to smell your damn smoke.

I think what he means is that the anti-tobacco people don;t oppose a nicotine product like nicorette yet they are vehemently opposed to e-cigs which don;t produce the smoke or smell of tobacco.

[w3bny]

<snip>

BTW, how can you smoke if you have cancer? That makes absolutely no sense.

Uhh yeah..whats with that. I figured you would try to give yourself a better chance without adding any more carcinogens into the mix. Like a guy with cirrhosis/cancer of the liver bitching about why he cant slug down martinis.

[n2ize]

And it still begs the question. If anti groups like ASH are against smoke than why are they against smokeless products like e-cigs ? By trying to get e-cigs and Snu's banned it sounds like they may actually be helping the cigarette companies. Kind of a bizarre symbiotic relationship between the militant "we hate tobacco" crowd and the cigarette producers.

[w3bny]

I think what he means is that the anti-tobacco people don;t oppose a nicotine product like nicorette yet they are vehemently opposed to e-cigs which don;t produce the smoke or smell of tobacco.

Who said I was vehemently opposed to e-cigs. It kind of goes against the spirit of the law dosnt it. Like you cant drink alcohol and drive but what if I inhale it. I didnt "drink" it. Just changing the method of delivery. But really wanna smoke in a bar/club have at it. I rarely go there anymore anyway and there you expect to deal with smoke.

[W2NAP]

I don't want to smell your tobacco smoke and have it stink up my clothes. Gestapo? Right. I'd flip that around on you. You're advocation forcing your smelly addiction on others. Who's the Gestapo here?

If one wants to kill themselves with cigarettes, that's their business. I shouldn't have to share the pain. Do it on your own time in private, or in a well ventilated area.

It's nice to go into a public place and not have it smelling like an ashtray.

In California, smoking has been banned in restaurants for a long time. The dining pleasure has been enhanced significantly without smelly tobacco smoke.

lets be clear. 1st smoking ban came right out of nazi germany! so a smoking ban is nazi legislation.

The dining pleasure has been enhanced? what did they ban children to? cause I find going into a place to eat and having to listen to some 2 year old screaming bastard much worse then some smoker.

is perfume banned in cali restaurants to? nothing more annoying then having someone walk by overloaded with nasty perfume

is music banned in cali restaurants as well? nothing worse then eating and some asshole goes over to a jukebox and starts playing some crap music or playing some squealing ass chick screeching on the mic about how her bf cheated and how much she loves to be a whore.

is fat people banned in cali restaurants? nothing more disgusting then trying to eat and some cow walking in wider then they are tall wearing no where enough clothes having to look at nasty fat rolls.

so if smoking is going to be banned I want banned in restaurants kids,music,fat people,perfume,and everything else that annoys me. I also want all cars,trucks,trains,planes,factories,gas powered mowers, motorcycles, mopeds, since all these nasty things pollute the air which is "hurting us" we should be forced to go back to the 10th century.

also hell restaruants needs to be banned since well they are making people fat and well "its for the health of the people and all ya know" so no more burger king, pizza places, dennys, waffle house,

oh and we also need to have monitors in everyones home. and you should be told exactly what YOU can eat every day. and if you violate the "what your allowed to eat" laws then maybe a 10,000 dollar fine would be good..

[n2ize]

Who said I was vehemently opposed to e-cigs. It kind of goes against the spirit of the law dosnt it. Like you cant drink alcohol and drive but what if I inhale it. I didnt "drink" it. Just changing the method of delivery. But really wanna smoke in a bar/club have at it. I rarely go there anymore anyway and there you expect to deal with smoke.

I didn;t say you were I said anti-smoke groups like ASH are opposed to e-cigs. As far as the other part of it, the issue about combustible tobacco is secondhand smoke. Smoking in bars and restaurants was banned because of the second hand smoke. E-cigs don't make secondhand smoke. Alcohol is a different story. It is not banned in bars and restaurants and it is about alcohol content in blood and driving. Whether you inject, inhale, or drink alcohol it is going to affect your ability to drive just the same. But with e-cigs its the lack of secondhand smoke. Entirely different set of cause/effects.

[WØTKX]

There are much better drugs than tobacco. Just sayin'. ;)

[NQ6U]

John, there is solid evidence that second-hand smoke is dangerous. And, Jan, the reasoning behind California's ban on smoking in bars was that it was a workplace safety issue.

[W1GUH]

Nothing like the pleasant strains of music that waft around a smoking argument. So much bullshit is spewed, so much emotion and morals. All encouraged, supported, and probably initiated by your friendly government that just LOVES to see groups of individuals bickering so bitterly amongst themselves so they have less attention to pay to how the gov't has it up our nether regions so badly! Enjoy!

[KG4CGC]

Yada Yada bickering aside, e-cigs are MOSTLY used by people who want to quit tobacco. At least they're eliminating a hundred and sixty eight other some odd chemicals and reducing it to one.
E-cigs have no smell.
E-cigs are already regulated by the FDA.
As for ASH, they should not be going after e-cigs as they are not the public nuisance that they are trying to paint them to be. You might as well well ban chewing gum or putting a piece of hard candy in your mouth while in public. Yes. I am comparing an e-cig to gum.

[kf0rt]

Yada Yada bickering aside, e-cigs are MOSTLY used by people who want to quit tobacco. At least they're eliminating a hundred and sixty eight other some odd chemicals and reducing it to one.
E-cigs have no smell.
E-cigs are already regulated by the FDA.
As for ASH, they should not be going after e-cigs as they are not the public nuisance that they are trying to paint them to be. You might as well well ban chewing gum or putting a piece of hard candy in your mouth while in public. Yes. I am comparing an e-cig to gum.

A buddy of mine at work just got an e-cig this week (he wants to quit). The e-cig is pretty cool (first time I've seen one) -- can't smell it, but you can see the "smoke." He takes it out of his pocket, puffs once or twice and puts it back. The end even lights up. Pretty strange to see. I wonder if they're legal on airplanes...

He claims that they taste "weird" but there are a lot of flavors out now and some people really like that.

[W2NAP]

Also must say. if smokers can not smoke in public. then smokers should get every fucking bit of taxes back they have been illegally forced to pay on buying smokes. and the ciggies taxes totally done away with.

[w3bny]

Also must say. if smokers can not smoke in public. then smokers should get every fucking bit of taxes back they have been illegally forced to pay on buying smokes. and the ciggies taxes totally done away with.

Sure as long as you can prove that the government FORCED you to buy a pack of smokes.

[KG4CGC]

ASH has overstepped on the issue of e-cigs. The name "ASH" implies combustion. There is no combustion with e-cigs. Perhaps ASH is the one, all burned up.
ASH, if anything, should be neutral on e-cigs because they simply are not a public nuisance.

[w3bny]

A buddy of mine at work just got an e-cig this week (he wants to quit). <snip>

Then just quit. Fuck chantrix (too wierd). You have to want to quit. Zyban/wellbutrin works but skip all that patch/gum/whatever crap. It is still nicotiene and in the end you are going to have to detox from that too. Its like going from street grade heroin to methadone/morphine. Cleaner but still addictive as hell. So take the Zyban, mark your "im done" day and do it. They dont call it "hell week" for nothing.

P.S. Lots of water, lots of gum, and Altoids (which btw, are about the size of a pack of Marlboro 100's)

[kf0rt]

Then just quit. Fuck chantrix (too wierd). You have to want to quit. Zyban/wellbutrin works but skip all that patch/gum/whatever crap. It is still nicotiene and in the end you are going to have to detox from that too. Its like going from street grade heroin to methadone/morphine. Cleaner but still addictive as hell. So take the Zyban, mark your "im done" day and do it. They dont call it "hell week" for nothing.

P.S. Lots of water, lots of gum, and Altoids (which btw, are about the size of a pack of Marlboro 100's)

Ayup. :)

[KB3LAZ]

Id love to walk into a place and not smell perfume as it makes me sneeze, cough, and it stinks...but I dont see people pushing that. You may say but its not harmful. It is to many people. Plus, I dont want my food to taste like chemicals when I have some lady that forgot to take a bath sitting beside me that has to bathe in perfume.

Though, tbh, I dont care that I cant smoke in a restaurant. In fact, myself and many other smokers have grown custom to it without much effort.

But, as for the ban, I too agree that it was not done because of health issues (that is not to say that there are not health issues involved but that is not why it was done). At least in the case of e-cigs.

When one day I die because of some Avon lady at Dennys who is going to fight for the rights of the next person to survive by disallowing entrance into public places if you smell like Pepe?

[w3bny]

Well stand up and represent beehatch. Stand up on the table and kick all her crap off and tell her to go wash dat ass! Then you wont have to worry about eating at that restaurant for a while. Hell you may be eatin in county so you wont be smelling perfume. Just straight unwashed prison ass :yuck: And Ah got down.. <boo-wheep>

[WX7P]

Nothing like the pleasant strains of music that waft around a smoking argument. So much bullshit is spewed, so much emotion and morals. All encouraged, supported, and probably initiated by your friendly government that just LOVES to see groups of individuals bickering so bitterly amongst themselves so they have less attention to pay to how the gov't has it up our nether regions so badly! Enjoy!

We ought to start calling you "Allen Gregory". Smug, pompous know it all without portfolio.

Fits well, station.

[w3bny]

Sniff-sniff....I smell a blood feud fixin to happen <tunes up banjo> Possum's cookin so when y'all done whumpin each other on the melon wash up and comeon in for supper. And leave that dadblasted corncob pipe outside. Heavens...

[WX7P]

Sniff-sniff....I smell a blood feud fixin to happen <tunes up banjo> Possum's cookin so when y'all done whumpin each other on the melon wash up and comeon in for supper. And leave that dadblasted corncob pipe outside. Heavens...

No dog in this hunt, really. It's the better part of valor just to ignore the boob and move on. I will comply.

Nothing to see here...

[w3bny]

BooB...huhhuhhuh...

darn. Now this baked possum is going to go to waste.

[KB3LAZ]

No dog in this hunt, really. It's the better part of valor just to ignore the boob and move on. I will comply.

Nothing to see here...

There are six pages of text. Whether or not they be of value, they quantify as something as opposed to nothing. Also they are visible. Therefore if they are the opposite of nothing and are visible that makes something to see, no?

(I know, I know...Im in a smart ass mood.)

[WX7P]

There are six pages of text. Whether or not they be of value, they quantify as something as opposed to nothing. Also they are visible. Therefore if they are the opposite of nothing and are visible that makes something to see, no?

(I know, I know...Im in a smart ass mood.)

Very ize of you, Travis. I wasn't referring to the entire thread...

[KG4CGC]

There are six pages of text. Whether or not they be of value, they quantify as something as opposed to nothing. Also they are visible. Therefore if they are the opposite of nothing and are visible that makes something to see, no?

(I know, I know...Im in a smart ass mood.)That's exactly what Willard said yesterday on TV when asked about revealing his tax returns.

[KB3LAZ]

Very ize of you, Travis. I wasn't referring to the entire thread...

:P Forgive me, just in an odd mood.

[WX7P]

That's exactly what Willard said yesterday on TV when asked about revealing his tax returns.

What did Ben say?

[KB3LAZ]

That's exactly what Willard said yesterday on TV when asked about revealing his tax returns.

Only Willard I know is a rat. But I assume you may lump this guy in that same category. :P I know..assumption.

[KG4CGC]

Only Willard I know is a rat. But I assume you may lump this guy in that same category. :P I know..assumption.

Willard Romney. His real name is Willard.

[WX7P]

Only Willard I know is a rat. But I assume you may lump this guy in that same category. :P I know..assumption.

Wrong! Willard was the ratman.

[KB3LAZ]

Wrong! Willard was the ratman.

But my rat's name is Willard. I did forget the name was of the man and not the rat though.

[WX7P]

But my rat's name is Willard. I did forget the name was of the man and not the rat though.

mea culpa

[KB3LAZ]

mea culpa

Mine as well. I incorrectly named the rat. :P No wonder my dad looked at me funny. I should have said, had. He is no longer with us.

[n2ize]

Then just quit. Fuck chantrix (too wierd). You have to want to quit. Zyban/wellbutrin works but skip all that patch/gum/whatever crap. It is still nicotiene and in the end you are going to have to detox from that too.

And npot everyone wants to quit. And among those who want to quit not everyone wants to or can deal with going cold turkey. It may work for some but not for everyone. There is no "one size fits all" approach to this. Some may even enjoy smoking and may not want to quite entirely but the e-gig offers a safer compromise.



Its like going from street grade heroin to methadone/morphine. Cleaner but still addictive as hell. So take the Zyban, mark your "im done" day and do it. They dont call it "hell week" for nothing.

Same deal here. Not everyone wants to quit and, among those who do, not everyone can stand going cold turkey and for some people the strain of cold turkey withdrawal can be dangerous. Methadone is legal, it helps many people get their lives together, get back to work and lead productive lives. And, most drug counselors will tell you that there is no one approach that works for everyone. Some people don;t want to kick heroin and stay on it for most of their lives. Others want to kick it and they can mange to go cold turkey. Others cannot and they go on Methadone. And there is no set time length for methadone. Some people can use if for a two week detox and never go back to drugs. Others have to stay on it much longer and some may stay on it for years because every time they detox they go right back on dope. Every single case is different and what works well for one may fail miserably for another.

Same deal with cigarettes and nicotine.

[n2ize]

John, there is solid evidence that second-hand smoke is dangerous.

But how dangerous and how much of a risk and how was that determined. If it is a statistical connection how exactly was that determination made and what is the degree of confidence in the results ? Most of the studies I have seen that claim to establish a solid connection between secondhand smoke and disease seem to have numerous weak points. And even if some of the better studies are reasonably accurate the risks as presented by anti-smoke groups like ASH are grossly exaggerated.

[W1GUH]

But how dangerous and how much of a risk and how was that determined. If it is a statistical connection how exactly was that determination made and what is the degree of confidence in the results ? Most of the studies I have seen that claim to establish a solid connection between secondhand smoke and disease seem to have numerous weak points. And even if some of the better studies are reasonably accurate the risks as presented by anti-smoke groups like ASH are grossly exaggerated.

AND I've had two, direct, personally witnessed/experienced incidents that suggest very strongly that the "stastical connection", not from second-hand smoke, but actually smoking itself is very much exaggerated by those with an agenda AND that the statistics are very skewed -- whether by lazy or agendized coroners, or by larger design.

I'd list those, but it'd be a waste of BW. Anti-smoking zealots will never believe them anyway, and tobacco aficionados already know that.

Yea, sure, "they" can say that smoking is a statistical risk factor. But they cannot say why I don't have lung cancer (fact is, my cancer has no strong connection with smoking -- that's direct from my oncologist -- up close and personal -- eye to eye) but Andy Kaufman (who never smoked anything) did. Not to mention others who never smoked. They DO NOT KNOW the mechanism by which smoke mutates normal cells into cancer cells. But...it's been shoved up our asses so strongly that all of a sudden the general public forgets that fact. Just like they thought w as good for the working person. Any lie repeated often and strongly enough becomes "Truth."

But...this subject is hardly ever discussed rationally. Way, way, WAY too much emotion, opinion, morals involved. And when you factor it Nicotine Deprivation Syndrome -- Boy, howdy! May as well be a communist party/nazi rally.

[W1GUH]

No dog in this hunt, really. It's the better part of valor just to ignore the boob and move on. I will comply.

Nothing to see here...

But you won't. Your desire to spew venom will win out.

[W1GUH]

You don't want to know what we should call you. But why DO you attack people and not ideas? Could be you have no facilities to actually discuss ideas and the only weapons you have are name-calling? Makes you look very, very weak and ineffectual. At least to those of us who know how to effectively debate.


We ought to start calling you "Allen Gregory". Smug, pompous know it all without portfolio.

Fits well, station.

[WX7P]

You don't want to know what we should call you. But why DO you attack people and not ideas? Could be you have no facilities to actually discuss ideas and the only weapons you have are name-calling? Makes you look very, very weak and ineffectual. At least to those of us who know how to effectively debate.

What looks weak and ineffectual is your constant harping on a topic that doesn't exist. I don't give a rat's ass what you think about my delivery. You have proven yourself to be full of shit on more than one occasion. I'm not going to be lectured by some two bit pissant who doesn't think critically and doesn't know his ass from hole in the ground. You don't discuss anything. You throw out stupid, vague anecdotes that prove nothing. Not only that, you fly completely off the handle if anyone disagrees with you. Look inward station. Pay attention to yourself instead of demonizing others.

Your attempt at being condescending is falling completely flat. You whine about attacks, but just what the hell are you doing here? Say whatever you want, I don't care. You look more and more like an idiot which each post.

You've done something is which is pretty hard to do, station. You've made my permanent stupid list, right up there with KWW and that thing from San Diego. I'm done communicating with you. You are completely without portfolio, period. You have no standing to lecture ANYONE about ANYTHING.

Take your phony dime store psychology and shove it. As far as I'm concerned, this topic is closed, so continue with your juvenile head shrinking, I won't respond.

[ka4dpo]

Grow your own tobacco.

No, don't grow it. Get a big bag of Tobacco seed and call the US Department of Agriculture. Tell them you are going to plant a bunch of tobacco and they will pay you not to. You can use the money to buy smokes on the black market just like tce politicians in Washington do.

[n2ize]

AND I've had two, direct, personally witnessed/experienced incidents that suggest very strongly that the "stastical connection", not from second-hand smoke, but actually smoking itself is very much exaggerated by those with an agenda AND that the statistics are very skewed -- whether by lazy or agendized coroners, or by larger design.

I'd list those, but it'd be a waste of BW. Anti-smoking zealots will never believe them anyway, and tobacco aficionados already know that.

Yea, sure, "they" can say that smoking is a statistical risk factor. But they cannot say why I don't have lung cancer (fact is, my cancer has no strong connection with smoking -- that's direct from my oncologist -- up close and personal -- eye to eye) but Andy Kaufman (who never smoked anything) did. Not to mention others who never smoked. They DO NOT KNOW the mechanism by which smoke mutates normal cells into cancer cells. But...it's been shoved up our asses so strongly that all of a sudden the general public forgets that fact. Just like they thought w as good for the working person. Any lie repeated often and strongly enough becomes "Truth."

But...this subject is hardly ever discussed rationally. Way, way, WAY too much emotion, opinion, morals involved. And when you factor it Nicotine Deprivation Syndrome -- Boy, howdy! May as well be a communist party/nazi rally.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is some exaggeration or scare mongering with respect to first hand smoke however. For instance ASH would like you to believe that exposure to even the tiniest whiff of tobacco smoke is a certain death sentence. However, I also tend to think is is nowhere near the level of exaggeration we see regarding second or third hand smoke. Numerous studies have been done at the micro level and it is pretty well established that components of first hand cigarette smoke do indeed cause mutations and the mechanism of those mutations has also been observed and is becoming better understood. In addition, at the macro level, decades upon decades of research have established an extremely strong probabilistic/statistical correlation between first hand smoke and cancers. Of course, on the individual level the risk is going to vary from individual to individual. It is going to vary depending on the person themselves, predisposition, other causative factors, how much they smoked, how long they smoked, their environment, etc. But once you start to increase your sample size the risk factor does become quite evident and significant. In addition we need to also consider the other, non-cancer risks that arise from cigarette smoking such as decreased lung capacity, coronary disease, emphysema, etc. The risks are indeed there.

Secondhand smoke on the other hand (and third hand) smoke has been overplayed to the hilt. I am not saying that non-smokers should have to breath in smoke and I understand and appreciate the feelings of the non-smoker. Heck, I suffered with asthma in my mid-late 20's and 30's and there were moments where I didn't always appreciate cigarette smoke either. But I never supported outright bans. I feel that real compromises and real solutions can be more effective than the kinds of draconian bans that groups like ASH are calling for. ASH has effectively gotten smoking banned outdoors in open air, in cars, and in peoples own homes/apartments. According to ASH if you can catch even the faintest whiff of tobacco smoke you are a dead man. Even many non-smokers are opposed to these bans. And ironically ASH is also against non-smoking forms of tobacco. For example in Europe they lobbied for bans of smokeless Swedish SNU's in Europe despite the fact that the Swede's have not had any issues with SNU's and cancers despite heavy use in some parts of Sweden. And many smokers used SNU's to break the cigarette habit. Nonetheless, the EU sided with ASH and banned SNU's. Sweden is the only country exempt from the ban. And, ironically the smoke hating ASH bunch is also against e-gigs and would love to get them totally banned from sale or use.

As a side note, there are many non-smokers that are opposed to these kinds of bans as well. Too many of the anti-tobacco groups have become control freaks, hell bent on dictating how everyone else should live. Much like the zealots of the prohibition era and the anti marijuana/anti drug zealots of today.

I would recommend reading the Joe Jackson essay that I linked to earlier in this post. I admit, it is not science. However, he does discuss some of the absurdity of groups like ASH and the lawmakers that follow them and the kind of mindset that is involved. It iis a surprisingly well written essay. Far better than most essays I have read that were written outside of non-academic circles.

[W1GUH]

So why do find it so necessary to call people names? What is it about your personality that you simply must rag on even dead people? What is the venom? What is the angst? Do you actually think that calling people names does any good at all besides paint a not-too-flattering picture of yourself?


What looks weak and ineffectual is your constant harping on a topic that doesn't exist. I don't give a rat's ass what you think about my delivery. You have proven yourself to be full of shit on more than one occasion. I'm not going to be lectured by some two bit pissant who doesn't think critically and doesn't know his ass from hole in the ground. You don't discuss anything. You throw out stupid, vague anecdotes that prove nothing. Not only that, you fly completely off the handle if anyone disagrees with you. Look inward station. Pay attention to yourself instead of demonizing others.

Your attempt at being condescending is falling completely flat. You whine about attacks, but just what the hell are you doing here? Say whatever you want, I don't care. You look more and more like an idiot which each post.

You've done something is which is pretty hard to do, station. You've made my permanent stupid list, right up there with KWW and that thing from San Diego. I'm done communicating with you. You are completely without portfolio, period. You have no standing to lecture ANYONE about ANYTHING.

Take your phony dime store psychology and shove it. As far as I'm concerned, this topic is closed, so continue with your juvenile head shrinking, I won't respond.

[W1GUH]

Re: skewing of numbers

The other piece of evidence is this...

My mother died in 2002 when she was 86 of asthma. She suffered with it for years and was on oxygen and doing breathing exercises for many years before her lungs just shut down. Her passing was peaceful.

She had quit smoking in the 70's.

My sister mentioned that the doctor told her that Mom's lungs were just shutting down. He added that they "saw a spot" on her lung, but at that stage they weren't going to do anything about it. In other words, she was never diagnosed with cancer while she was alive.


The funeral director said that, since Mom died on a Saturday, she would be embalmed until she was cremated on Monday. No mention of any autopsy.

So....I get the death certificate. The cause of death stated Lung Cancer.

I'm going to ask my sister for more detail, but this sure looks bogus. If she has nothing to add I'll write to the County Clerk and the funeral director to inquire about this.

Wonder how widespread this practice is?

[w3bny]

Dunno. Most folks that they may do that practice to aint talking much.

[n2ize]

My sister mentioned that the doctor told her that Mom's lungs were just shutting down. He added that they "saw a spot" on her lung, but at that stage they weren't going to do anything about it. In other words, she was never diagnosed with cancer while she was alive.


Sad story and I express my condolences. But, as the doctor said and as you know based on what the doctor said,, she (unfortunately) likely did have cancer on top of the other problems. And even if it wasn't cancer, first hand smoke causes a lot of other serious lung disease then cancer.

And even if this were an issue there are enough (decades of) statistics based on cancer diagnoses to establish a very strong cause/effect relationship between cigarette smoking and lung cancer, not to mention coronary disease, emphysema, and reduced lung capacity. Not to mention studies that have been done at the micro level that show significant changes on the cellular level including DNA mutations and the early formation of cancer cells. This is not the 1950's, this is the 21st century. Science has well established the strong and definite links between first hand smoke and cancer,lung, and heart disease.

Second, or third hand smoke ? Well there I question how significant the risks are. But the risks of first hand smoke are too solid to ignore at this stage of the game.

[ka4dpo]

I wouldn't be surprised if there is some exaggeration or scare mongering with respect to first hand smoke however. For instance ASH would like you to believe that exposure to even the tiniest whiff of tobacco smoke is a certain death sentence. However, I also tend to think is is nowhere near the level of exaggeration we see regarding second or third hand smoke. Numerous studies have been done at the micro level and it is pretty well established that components of first hand cigarette smoke do indeed cause mutations and the mechanism of those mutations has also been observed and is becoming better understood. In addition, at the macro level, decades upon decades of research have established an extremely strong probabilistic/statistical correlation between first hand smoke and cancers. Of course, on the individual level the risk is going to vary from individual to individual. It is going to vary depending on the person themselves, predisposition, other causative factors, how much they smoked, how long they smoked, their environment, etc. But once you start to increase your sample size the risk factor does become quite evident and significant. In addition we need to also consider the other, non-cancer risks that arise from cigarette smoking such as decreased lung capacity, coronary disease, emphysema, etc. The risks are indeed there.

Secondhand smoke on the other hand (and third hand) smoke has been overplayed to the hilt. I am not saying that non-smokers should have to breath in smoke and I understand and appreciate the feelings of the non-smoker. Heck, I suffered with asthma in my mid-late 20's and 30's and there were moments where I didn't always appreciate cigarette smoke either. But I never supported outright bans. I feel that real compromises and real solutions can be more effective than the kinds of draconian bans that groups like ASH are calling for. ASH has effectively gotten smoking banned outdoors in open air, in cars, and in peoples own homes/apartments. According to ASH if you can catch even the faintest whiff of tobacco smoke you are a dead man. Even many non-smokers are opposed to these bans. And ironically ASH is also against non-smoking forms of tobacco. For example in Europe they lobbied for bans of smokeless Swedish SNU's in Europe despite the fact that the Swede's have not had any issues with SNU's and cancers despite heavy use in some parts of Sweden. And many smokers used SNU's to break the cigarette habit. Nonetheless, the EU sided with ASH and banned SNU's. Sweden is the only country exempt from the ban. And, ironically the smoke hating ASH bunch is also against e-gigs and would love to get them totally banned from sale or use.

As a side note, there are many non-smokers that are opposed to these kinds of bans as well. Too many of the anti-tobacco groups have become control freaks, hell bent on dictating how everyone else should live. Much like the zealots of the prohibition era and the anti marijuana/anti drug zealots of today.

I would recommend reading the Joe Jackson essay that I linked to earlier in this post. I admit, it is not science. However, he does discuss some of the absurdity of groups like ASH and the lawmakers that follow them and the kind of mindset that is involved. It iis a surprisingly well written essay. Far better than most essays I have read that were written outside of non-academic circles.


Here is some anecdotal data.

My grandmother never smoked but grew up in a house full of smokers. Her dad and five of her seven brothers smoked (there were 14 kids). My granfather also smoked but it did him in, he had a stroke at 89 probably cause by smoking.

Anyway, my grandmother was heavily exposed to second hand smoke all of her life and lived to be 100 years old. She died in her sleep and the official cause of death was extreme old age.

[w3bny]

So following your "anecdotal data" its cool to sit in a kids nursery and fire up an Arturo Fuentes Canones and the rest of the family huff on a hookah and some Paul Malls...not gonna hurt the infant right since second hand smoke is "bullshit" made up by the Gestapo NIH.

[KC2UGV]

So following your "anecdotal data" its cool to sit in a kids nursery and fire up an Arturo Fuentes Canones and the rest of the family huff on a hookah and some Paul Malls...not gonna hurt the infant right since second hand smoke is "bullshit" made up by the Gestapo NIH.

Can't be much worse than sitting around a camp fire...

[w3bny]

Can't be much worse than sitting around a camp fire...

Last I checked, a camp fire doesn't have a surgeon generals warning saying you can get fooking cancer or emphysema...just saying.

[KB3LAZ]

Here is some anecdotal data.

My grandmother never smoked but grew up in a house full of smokers. Her dad and five of her seven brothers smoked (there were 14 kids). My granfather also smoked but it did him in, he had a stroke at 89 probably cause by smoking.

Anyway, my grandmother was heavily exposed to second hand smoke all of her life and lived to be 100 years old. She died in her sleep and the official cause of death was extreme old age.

My grandma on my fathers side died of lung cancer at 45. She didnt smoke, my grandpa didnt smoke, etc. On the other hand my great grandma on my mothers side smoked 2 packs a day and died at 93 of a brain aneurysm.

Me, I like tacos.

[KB3LAZ]

Last I checked, a camp fire doesn't have a surgeon generals warning saying you can get fooking cancer or emphysema...just saying.

Depends on what the person is burning. Maybe they should.

[KC2UGV]

Last I checked, a camp fire doesn't have a surgeon generals warning saying you can get fooking cancer or emphysema...just saying.

That's because it would be ridiculous to put a warning on it. But, notice, it's generally a bad idea to have a fire in any closed area? Inhalation of combustion products is never a good idea, as most carbon-based combustion produces the same products.

And, if you sit around huffing campfire smoke, you WILL get emphysema.

[KB3LAZ]

And what about them cars. Damn second hand smog. Or when I step off campus to have a smoke and get a ticket but I count 11 smoke stacks pumping out smoke the color of coal.

[KC2UGV]

And what about them cars. Damn second hand smog. Or when I step off campus to have a smoke and get a ticket but I count 11 smoke stacks pumping out smoke the color of coal.

But, it's ok. There's no surgeon general warning on cars... :wink:

[KG4CGC]

So following your "anecdotal data" its cool to sit in a kids nursery and fire up an Arturo Fuentes Canones and the rest of the family huff on a hookah and some Paul Malls...not gonna hurt the infant right since second hand smoke is "bullshit" made up by the Gestapo NIH.

yup yup yuuuuup. tHAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID. wORD FOR WORD.

[w3bny]

Oh.. I like tacos too!

[WX7P]

Me, I like tacos.

Random...But I like it!

[KB3LAZ]

Random...But I like it!

Lol. Im a very random person at times.

But seriously, as for smoking, I have never had a problem with putting out a smoke or going outside to smoke at someones request. There are times when I think it goes too far though. For example, we have to smoke in our cars over in the town I work in. Not a work policy but rather the state. Because we have to be 25 feet from a building which isnt possible in the area. ...Unless my windows are rolled up the smoke is still going to the same place as if I were standing on the sidewalk.

Our campus took our ashtrays away but then they gave them back. 19000 students and they thought we were not going to smoke....that worked well. :P

[w3bny]

I think the "I like tacos" is the new island code phrase for "This is getting old and were not getting anywhere"

[KG4CGC]

My nutz itch.

[KB3LAZ]

I think the "I like tacos" is the new island code phrase for "This is getting old and were not getting anywhere"

I like tacos but they do not like me. Now I want Mexican. But not tacos. :P Grr...need enchiladas.

[NQ6U]

I like tacos but they do not like me.

¡Pinche gabacho!

[n2ize]

So following your "anecdotal data" its cool to sit in a kids nursery and fire up an Arturo Fuentes Canones and the rest of the family huff on a hookah and some Paul Malls...not gonna hurt the infant right since second hand smoke is "bullshit" made up by the Gestapo NIH.

Well, back when I was growing up that is basically how it was. Most kids from infancy onward were exposed to smoke. Virtually all my relatives smoked so I pretty much grew up close to smokers from infancy onward as did most of my generation. Fortunately I never took up smoking full time and neither of my parents smoked. I don;t doubt that the secondhand smoke was probably bad and I don;lt think anyone is saying that it is harmless. However, I do think there is a lot of exaggeration of the risks of second and third hand. How bad is second hand smoke really ? It depends who you ask. ASH will tell you that even the single tiniest and most incidental whiff of smoke means you are dead. Others will tell you its 100% harmless. And everything in between. I tend to think that in general there is a lot of exaggeration. I also do not support bans. Bans breed resentment and do little to solve problems.

[n2ize]

Lol. Im a very random person at times.

But seriously, as for smoking, I have never had a problem with putting out a smoke or going outside to smoke at someones request. There are times when I think it goes too far though. For example, we have to smoke in our cars over in the town I work in. Not a work policy but rather the state. Because we have to be 25 feet from a building which isnt possible in the area. ...Unless my windows are rolled up the smoke is still going to the same place as if I were standing on the sidewalk.

Our campus took our ashtrays away but then they gave them back. 19000 students and they thought we were not going to smoke....that worked well. :P

You can thank groups like ASH for the more absurd anti-smoking rules. if ASH gets their way you won't be allowed to smoke in your home or anywhere within the atmosphere of the earth for that matter. Build a spaceship and smoke in space ? Once ASH catches on they'll ban you from smoking in space. You might harm a space alien with your rotten secondhand smoke. :yuck:

[W3MPS]

I was going to make some literary reference and be all pseudo intellectual and what not....

Anyway:

This is my take on it sports fans.

E-cigarettes, you are inhaling some water vapor and nicotine.

After 10 years of hearing about said device, I have finally seen one. Some dude came in to work stressing out over a burned out alternator. Said gentleman pulled out an E cig. Seeing him puffing away on it was almost comical. The guy was in his mid forties, yet all I could think of was some brat toddler sucking on a pacifier.

If said dude wants to look like an ass in public sucking on a fake cigarette, more power to him. Water vapor laced with a little nicotine only hurts him.

However, I am tired of people who claim they know better than me dictating what I should do with my body.

Vices are vices. What you do with your body ultimately hurts you. The fact that the people around you experience collateral damage is further grounds for consideration as to what you choose to do in public environments.

Did I smoke?? Yes, I did, for eleven years. However, I realized that I was moving slower and wasn't as young as I used to be. I subsequently quit smoking.

Do I drink? Yes: however, my Hank Williams Junioresque days are drawing to a close. My partying hearty is not what it used to be. I typically have two beers here and there, the occasional weekend I may indulge more than that. Being whiskey bent and Hell bound is not as fun being almost thirty as it was when you were nineteen. I drank hard. While I can do some serious drinking, I feel obliged to state that pickling your liver is not a wise choice. Marinading your own foie gras is not conducive towards an extended period on this mortal coil.

I guess the moral of what I am trying to get at is this....

If you can get your nicotine fix without belching out carcinogenic clouds that's fine. As far as looking like a total goober sucking on a stick with a light up LED on the end every time you take a puff, that's your personal image problem.

Said E gig gentleman I saw at work the night before, it was all I could do to refrain from saying "I understand if you're stressed out from dealing with your car being broke, take a minute and step outside and have a smoke. However, do you realize that you look like a total dumb ass sucking on that light up glowy thingy?"

I think the e cigarette is hilarious. It's like a pacifier for adults. It is way less harmful than real cigarettes, so let it be.

Above all, your elders have made the same bad choices you are contemplating. If you cannot learn from history, your dumb ass deserves what happens afterwards.

[suddenseer]

I will jump in late as usual. I do not care what pro/smoking data/bullshit you may want to pull out of your ass. I have emphysema, I contracted this disease from second hand cigarette smoke. QED.

[W2NAP]

I will jump in late as usual. I do not care what pro/smoking data/bullshit you may want to pull out of your ass. I have emphysema, I contracted this disease from second hand cigarette smoke. QED.

fact or is that what some doctor just told you?

you have all these people who claim smoking dose this dose that. lets take lung cancer. damn near always blamed on smoking. but I knew someone who had lung cancer never smoked, never was around anyone who smoked, and never worked in any manufacuring.

now going by all these doctors and "speciallist" say how smoking is what causes lung cancer. dude should have never have had lung cancer.

[suddenseer]

fact or is that what some doctor just told you?

you have all these people who claim smoking dose this dose that. lets take lung cancer. damn near always blamed on smoking. but I knew someone who had lung cancer never smoked, never was around anyone who smoked, and never worked in any manufacuring.

now going by all these doctors and "speciallist" say how smoking is what causes lung cancer. dude should have never have had lung cancer.My last hospital visit was a 7 day affair. I had tubes going in my lungs to allow me to breathe. I have the luxury of 2 pulmonary specialists telling me I have emphysema. the first one I choose to ignore, and paid the consequences later. The second one I owe my life. I have never smoked cigarettes as an adult.I have always lived with a smoker. I am living proof that one can get emphysema from second hand smoke. Believe what you want to, science will not change.

[KB3LAZ]

One thing I dont understand. They tried to at one point stop smoking in cigar lounges here. Um...why would non smokers even be there aside from buying a gift (which they can do online)? Needless to say, that didnt work.

[n2ize]

fact or is that what some doctor just told you?

you have all these people who claim smoking dose this dose that. lets take lung cancer. damn near always blamed on smoking. but I knew someone who had lung cancer never smoked, never was around anyone who smoked, and never worked in any manufacuring.

now going by all these doctors and "speciallist" say how smoking is what causes lung cancer. dude should have never have had lung cancer.

Actually that is not what the science is saying at all. They are not saying that smoking is the only way to get lung cancer or that if you don;t smoke you won't ever get lung cancer. There are many people who get lung cancer and don't smoke. However, the rate of lung cancer among cigarette smokers is higher that for non-cig smokers. Or, said differently, you are less likely to get lung cancer if you don;t smoke cigs .This fact is not based upon some short term here-say anecdotal evidence. It is the result of decades of research. And on the microbiological level mutations induced via the chemicals in cig smoke has been directly observed. This is not the 1950's. We have had decades to study this and the science is solid. First hand smoke is most definitely a lung carcinogen and a cause of emphesyma. The damage first hand cig smoke does to the lungs is also directly observable.

I still have some reservations about second/third hand smoke. I agree its not good for you but the anti's clearly exaggerate the hazard. I think the issue of second hand smoke can be dealt with without draconian bans and playing nanny.

[kf0rt]

I've known exactly three people who have been diagnosed with lung cancer. All three died within 2 years of diagnosis (two before age 55). All three were heavy smokers.

Just trying to balance out the "antecdotal" evidence here.

[N8YX]

I've known exactly three people who have been diagnosed with lung cancer. All three died within 2 years of diagnosis (two before age 55). All three were heavy smokers.

Just trying to balance out the "antecdotal" evidence here.

I've known several of same. Ditto.

I also knew a woman (late wife of an area ham friend) who never smoked a cigarette in her life, nor was she around smokers..yet passed away from lung cancer last April.

[n2ize]

I've known exactly three people who have been diagnosed with lung cancer. All three died within 2 years of diagnosis (two before age 55). All three were heavy smokers.

Just trying to balance out the "antecdotal" evidence here.

As I pointed out above, the connection between first-hand cigarette smoking and lung cancer is solid.Cellular/DNA mutations have been directly observed and the statistical link between the two is solid. The connection between cig smoking and lung cancer is anything but anecdotal, it's a scientific/mathematical reality.

[kf0rt]

As I pointed out above, the connection between first-hand cigarette smoking and lung cancer is solid.Cellular/DNA mutations have been directly observed and the statistical link between the two is solid. The connection between cig smoking and lung cancer is anything but anecdotal, it's a scientific/mathematical reality.

I was kinda headed that way...

[KB3LAZ]

98% of people on both sides of my family die from one form of cancer or another. No use trying to escape it. Im fuked.

[n6hcm]

will you both please STFU already? if you're going to bicker do it in PMs. this is as toxic as second-hand smoke.


So why do find it so necessary to call people names? What is it about your personality that you simply must rag on even dead people? What is the venom? What is the angst? Do you actually think that calling people names does any good at all besides paint a not-too-flattering picture of yourself?

[WX7P]

will you both please STFU already? if you're going to bicker do it in PMs. this is as toxic as second-hand smoke.

Done and done, Henry.

You're a little late...

[KG4CGC]

Chestnuts itching on an open fire.

[NQ6U]

Chestnuts itching on an open fire.

Jackass nipping at your nose.

[KG4CGC]

Jackass nipping at your nose.

Though it's been said, many times, many waaaaaaays ...

[NQ6U]

Though it's been said, many times, many waaaaaaays ...

Hari Krishna, fuck you.

[kf0rt]

Hari Krishna, fuck you.

Your next drink will have a special ingredient.

Tip well, my friend. :rofl:

[NA4BH]

Umbrella?

[KG4CGC]

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2012/01/22/smartphones-are-just-like-cigarettes-comic/

[KB3LAZ]

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2012/01/22/smartphones-are-just-like-cigarettes-comic/

Fair analogy. They are addictive to some, annoying to most (when they are not the ones using them), costly, cause damage, and at times cause death (obviously due to operator ignorance).

[KG4CGC]

Fair analogy. They are addictive to some, annoying to most (when they are not the ones using them), costly, cause damage, and at times cause death (obviously due to operator ignorance).
Funny too. ☺

[KB3LAZ]

Funny too. ☺

Given. :P

[KG4CGC]

Given. :P

Taken ♫

[KB3LAZ]

Taken ♫

Lol.

[N8YX]

Back on topic:

One of 'DGS's coworkers "lit up" an e-cig in front of us at dinner last evening. First time I had ever seen one of the things.

Afterwards, I'm thinking This is it? This is what the fooking fuss is all about??!!??

Someone needs to take a very large, very stout piece of anchor chain, couple it to a traction motor of equal facility and use the contraption to tow the NY legislature's collective head out of its ass, post-haste. :roll:

[KG4CGC]

Back on topic:

One of 'DGS's coworkers "lit up" an e-cig in front of us at dinner last evening. First time I had ever seen one of the things.

Afterwards, I'm thinking This is it? This is what the fooking fuss is all about??!!??

Someone needs to take a very large, very stout piece of anchor chain, couple it to a traction motor of equal facility and use the contraption to tow the NY legislature's collective head out of its ass, post-haste. :roll:
Yes. That is it. To listen to the ASHes and the law makers, one would come to the radical conclusion that children were being tortured by large hairy men in diapers and rubber dish gloves.

[w3bny]

Damn, this thing is still alive...


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b220/Bunnieman/hypodermic.jpg

[KG4CGC]

Damn, this thing is still alive...






Said the large hairy man.

[W7XF]

Just remember this....until the mid-80's, there were a LOT of cars out here burning gasoline mixed with tetraethyl LEAD.....
and we know how toxic lead is....

[w3bny]

Said the large hairy man.

hey HEY...im not that hairy...

[KB3LAZ]

hey HEY...im not that hairy...

Just furry. Tehe.

[WV6Z]

Back on topic:

One of 'DGS's coworkers "lit up" an e-cig in front of us at dinner last evening. First time I had ever seen one of the things.

Afterwards, I'm thinking This is it? This is what the fooking fuss is all about??!!??

Someone needs to take a very large, very stout piece of anchor chain, couple it to a traction motor of equal facility and use the contraption to tow the NY legislature's collective head out of its ass, post-haste. :roll:

Sure makes one wonder. If this is NY's course of direction, surely by now they have the death penalty in place for those who happen to fart in the presence of children in NY now, right?

[XE1/N5AL]

Damn, I wonder if those E-Cigarettes are known to cause RFI? Best to get 'em with ferrite-filtered tips!

[kf0rt]

Back on track for a bit...

A buddy at work is getting into the e-cig thing. For what it's worth, he's diggin' it. Down to three real smokes a day. He's done a boatload of research and says the "Green Smoke" brand is the best.

We wonder if one can "light up" in an aeroplane or restaurant. Seems harmless enough as long as you're not an asswipe about it.

[KG4CGC]

Back on track for a bit...

A buddy at work is getting into the e-cig thing. For what it's worth, he's diggin' it. Down to three real smokes a day. He's done a boatload of research and says the "Green Smoke" brand is the best.

We wonder if one can "light up" in an aeroplane or restaurant. Seems harmless enough as long as you're not an asswipe about it.

You can palm the whole thing in your fist, take half a hit at a time and just hold it long enough to not release any "vapor."
I was talking with my tobacconist just yesterday on this. Smokers are the legal scapegoat of the self righteous who need to exercise their bigotry on a group of people.

[KC2UGV]

He's done a boatload of research and says the "Green Smoke" brand is the best.

I dunnno about the best, but they're good. He should give some Johnson Creek liquid a try :) Or, VaporTrails liquid. Good stuff, both of them.

Is he a menthol or non-menthol type of person?

[n2ize]

Just remember this....until the mid-80's, there were a LOT of cars out here burning gasoline mixed with tetraethyl LEAD.....
and we know how toxic lead is....

Our old snowthrower (late 50's/early 60's vintage) used to say "use ONLY leaded regular gas". These days they all say "use unleaded gas ONLY".

[KB3LAZ]

I see that they also have the disposable E-cigs at our gas station now. Says they are equal to one carton.

[KG4CGC]

I see that they also have the disposable E-cigs at our gas station now. Says they are equal to one carton.

My original ecig was banned before they brought the other brands to market.

[n2ize]

The e-cigs sound interesting. I could see myself trying one. However, for real pleasure I still doubt anything beats a good pipe (tobacco and the other kinds. However, these days I am not taking tobacco in any form. This is not to say I will never take tobacco ever again. I might enjoy an occasional pipe or some Redman chew. But for now I just haven't had the urge or desire to smoke, chew, etc.

[KG4CGC]

Have you tried any nice Perique with Latakia blends? I remember you said you like straight Latakia, throw in some Perique to that.

[KC2UGV]

I see that they also have the disposable E-cigs at our gas station now. Says they are equal to one carton.

lol.

They're lying. Well, maybe exaggerating a whole hell of a lot. One cartridge is about equal to 2/3 a pack, in my experience. And the disposables are for the "buy it once, to try it". Don't ever buy a second one.

If you've tried the disposable, and think you can do it, don't do the $200 kits, or the "Just pay shipping", "As Seen on TV" "deals". Pick up one of these (Available at lots of local places):

http://cig2o.com/home.html (http://cig2o.com/home.html)

They are pretty cheap. You can get a battery, a charger, and two carts for about $16 bucks. Afterwards, you just buy the 3 or 5 pack of carts (If you are lazy), or refill the carts (Easy to do). It's a pretty standard unit (Called the KR808D-1) with accessories widely available. I bought three kits, because the charge will only last for about 1 1/2 hours of vaping.

If you can see yourself sticking with it, THEN I'd suggest getting the larger devices (I use a Ego-T, with pass-through charging), and match hardware to fit your preferences. Case in point, my Ego-T uses tanks (1.5ml of liquid capacity) and atomizers. I couldn't stand it, always a burnt taste. So, now I have an adapter to fit my 808 cartos onto the Ego-T, with a sleeve to make it match. Couldn't be happier.

[KB3LAZ]

lol.

They're lying. Well, maybe exaggerating a whole hell of a lot. One cartridge is about equal to 2/3 a pack, in my experience. And the disposables are for the "buy it once, to try it". Don't ever buy a second one.

If you've tried the disposable, and think you can do it, don't do the $200 kits, or the "Just pay shipping", "As Seen on TV" "deals". Pick up one of these (Available at lots of local places):

http://cig2o.com/home.html (http://cig2o.com/home.html)

They are pretty cheap. You can get a battery, a charger, and two carts for about $16 bucks. Afterwards, you just buy the 3 or 5 pack of carts (If you are lazy), or refill the carts (Easy to do). It's a pretty standard unit (Called the KR808D-1) with accessories widely available. I bought three kits, because the charge will only last for about 1 1/2 hours of vaping.

If you can see yourself sticking with it, THEN I'd suggest getting the larger devices (I use a Ego-T, with pass-through charging), and match hardware to fit your preferences. Case in point, my Ego-T uses tanks (1.5ml of liquid capacity) and atomizers. I couldn't stand it, always a burnt taste. So, now I have an adapter to fit my 808 cartos onto the Ego-T, with a sleeve to make it match. Couldn't be happier.

Yeah, Sheetz has them for 10$ and walmart for 6$. Those are disposable" just a fancy way to say they dont come with the charger so they are 10$ cheaper. Tbh, I dont think Ill buy one, I was just curious. Once I get to Spain. Pilar and I have talked about quitting. Much like the other two times, Ill just throw them away. Ive always been an on again off again smoker. Normally 18 months at a time. Will still have one Cigar ever Saturday, as always. :P

[n2ize]

Have you tried any nice Perique with Latakia blends? I remember you said you like straight Latakia, throw in some Perique to that.

Yes, some of my favorite English and Balkan mixtures I've tried were blends of Burleys with Perique and Latakia mixed in. IO've tried it in both a briar and a clay and it was excellent in either. I am not sure if I ever tried a straight perique/latakia mixture but, it sounds like something to look forward to in the future. What I like about the Perique is that it adds some nice flavour notes to the Latakia that really rounds out the flavor. From my experiences good Perique can only enhance the flavour experience of quality Latakia.

I found an interesting article on Perique production.

http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/put-that-in-your-pipe/the-mystique-of-perique/#more-3399

[KG4CGC]

Yes, some of my favorite English and Balkan mixtures I've tried were blends of Burleys with Perique and Latakia mixed in. IO've tried it in both a briar and a clay and it was excellent in either. I am not sure if I ever tried a straight perique/latakia mixture but, it sounds like something to look forward to in the future. What I like about the Perique is that it adds some nice flavour notes to the Latakia that really rounds out the flavor. From my experiences good Perique can only enhance the flavour experience of quality Latakia.

I found an interesting article on Perique production.

http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/put-that-in-your-pipe/the-mystique-of-perique/#more-3399
Go ahead and blend it the two at least a week ahead of time. Perique is very moist and Latakia is very dry. The flavors will marry over time and the moisture will balance out.
Currently I'm mixing 1 part Perique to 1 part Latakia to 2 parts Norwegian shag which translates to a mild bright Virginia.
You could also substitute an Amsterdam "pipe cut" cig blend for Norwegian is you wanted it to be a little bit bolder.
Perique is really quite subtle to the tongue but it will clear out a room full of people even if they are smokers. You either like it or you don't. There is no middle ground (for the most part) with P'stink.
You know, when mixed with a vanilla black cavendish, it's kind of like adding salt to something sweet and the resultant is complimentary. I have a blend that currently employs this technique.

[KG4CGC]

Been fooling around with a couple of ecigs here and there for the last 4 years. I think I found something I can live with. It's by Lotus. Starter kit comes with 3 carts, USB charger and the main battery body. Most others have left me wanting a cig. This one doesn't. It works and for 22.50 plus tax it beats the hell out of Blue, Cig2o and the myriad of disposables I've tried.

[N7YA]

I thank Odin i never took up that deadly and disgusting drug addiction. Good luck to those of you who are working on getting clean and saving your own life, and that of those around you...seriously!

[n2ize]

I thank Odin i never took up that deadly and disgusting drug addiction. Good luck to those of you who are working on getting clean and saving your own life, and that of those around you...seriously!

It is even worst than many drug addictions in that it is more dangerous and damaging to the body. Even heroin addiction (as notorious as it may be) does far less damage to the body assuming the heroin is relatively pure and the method of administration is sterile. I have a friend who spend much of his life addicted to coke and heroin, booze, and cigs. If I ask him what is the worst drugs he ever used he will say "alcohol and cigarettes". Ironically they are the 2 drugs our society keeps legal and condones. Go figure. Not that I am in favor of making them illegal. We alll know prohibition doesn't work.

[N7YA]

Absolutely agree!

[K7SGJ]

For me, quitting was a bitch, especially the third and last time. I hear it's a little easier now; the support groups pass out razor blades these days.

[KG4CGC]

I found a way to refill the cartridges but I need a really tiny diameter straw or tube to do it. Now I'm looking at building a unit but the build may be unjustifiably expensive. I'll just have to keep investigating the possibilities.

[KC2UGV]

I found a way to refill the cartridges but I need a really tiny diameter straw or tube to do it. Now I'm looking at building a unit but the build may be unjustifiably expensive. I'll just have to keep investigating the possibilities.

You can usually take the leg of a binder clip, slip it under, and pop out the cap of the cartridge to refill.

To build one, you can use a DC Coaxial power connector from Radioshack(http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102599) with 808 cartridges (Like these: http://www.theecig.com/product_p/krd-808-1%20empty.htm), coupled with your choice of voltages from 2.5 to 4V (5V is really pushing it), at at least 2A.