New Car Buying Guidelines

[N1LAF]

1. Find out what the Dealer Cost of the new car is
2. Know what value your car is, and you may find a better price at the dealership

Links to use to help:
http://www.truecar.com/
http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/browse/

My car quote formula:
(dealer cost - rebate + transportation)*(taxrate + 0.02) + dealer cost - rebate + transportation - trade in + registration + transaction fee

The 0.02 represents Dealership Profit percentage.
'Transportation' is the transportation/Destination/Shipping charges

Remember, the Dealership motivation is max profits/commission, not a great deal for you. Knowledge is power.

How to handle a dealership salesman:

1. Calculate car cost from above formula. Use NADA for trade in.

2. Walk into dealership, talk with salesman while they test ride your car.

3. Tell the salesman what you will pay right now for the car.

4. The salesman will balk at your proposal, and will try to strong-arm you to buy right now. Refuse to buy now, you need a few days to think about it. When the salesman says this is the final offer, get up, ask if your car is ready, tell the salesman have a good night, and walk out the door. A reputable salesman/dealership - will chase you out the door, maybe to talk with the manager, who wants to talk with you.

5. Say you have a few minutes to talk with the manager, and the manager may perform the same tactic. Stick with your price. Any time in step 4 or step 5, they may say that they will pay $$$ for your car if you buy that day. You now have the price they are willing to pay for your car. Remember that trade-in number. Tell the manager the same thing, you need a couple days to consider. Leave.

6. Recalculate the formula, using the price the dealership stated that they would pay for your car. There is no real time limit on this.

7. IF they have an Internet sales manager, e-mail a simple paragraph like : If you agree to this price, $$$$$, for this car with these options, this will lead to a sale by {date}
ELSE visit the salesman and tell the salesman the same thing. Explain that a 2% 'profit' is fair for the car. Even show the salesman your equation, how you arrived to your price. Remind the salesman that the trade in price is the price they are willing to pay for your car. They will initially squawk, but they will give in.


Take this approach, you will get a great deal.

[W7XF]

AND MAKE SURE YOU SEE THE CARFAX....AND INSIST ON WATCHING THE DEALER ENTER THE INFORMATION ON THE COMPUTER AND WATCH THE PRINTER PRINT OUT THE CARFAX!!!!!!!!!

[WØTKX]

#1 Don't buy a new car!

There are so many excellent used vehicles out there. Of course you have to check them out but it avoids the depreciation. I'd rather pay a trusted mechanic up to $1000 over a year to keep it running than make payments, but that's just me. Tires, oil, and tuneups are just regular expenses AFAIC.

Last year, Previa for $4500, put $800 in repairs so it will go another 100K at least. Mind you, this is a supercharged All-Trac (AWD) so it's expensive to work on. $5K for the Miata, it needs nothing... but it's only got 65K miles on it. My Acura Integra needs about $600 to go another 100k. It's for sale tho, I don't need it.

That being said, I tried one of the new Sonota's when I was car shopping. Albi was right, what a fantastic car. :yes:

[kf0rt]

Buy this book used, for a penny:

http://www.amazon.com/Car-Buyers-Art-Beat-Salesman/dp/1890308013/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326585486&sr=8-1

Read it.

You win. ;)

[K7SGJ]

Buy this book used, for a penny:

http://www.amazon.com/Car-Buyers-Art-Beat-Salesman/dp/1890308013/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326585486&sr=8-1

Read it.

You win. ;)

I have his 1st edition packed away. He was a guest on the radio station I used to engineer, and he was even nice enough to sign it for me after the interview. This is about the best book a person can read prior to buying a new/used car. IIRC he was a long time car salesman somewhere in California. He reveals all the tricks, like when they gang up on the buyer in the little office and apply the pressure. He told me he received a lot of death threats right after the book first came out.

I was amazed how dead on he was, and how many of these tricks were actually pulled on us. It really is fun to recognize them and and know the right way to deal with them. I know we have saves lots of $$ over the years. Even if you aren't in the market for a vehicle at the moment, it's a great read now, and every time prior to buying.

[W1GUH]

Does anyone ever consider a car's or a brand's reputation for service or reliability when acquiring a new, or used vehicle? There's lots of information about how to "beat" the lizards that sell cars and about pricing and all that. But how often is that shiny new or slightly used vehicle gonna leave you stranded or waiting for a tow?

And when you take in in for service, is the shop going to actually fix the problem so it stays fixed? Will they do the job properly?

I've had such an education about this. I've owned Toyotas and another marque. The dependability and service and parts availability from Toyota is impeccable -- since '78 I have no complaints whatsoever with them. The "other marque" was a total disaster for reliability and service. They were always breaking, and a lot of those break-downs were simply very bad design/implementation. And this is a so-called "prestige" brand! And the service was deplorable. Some shops did things that were out-and-out just wrong! And they were pretty arrogant about it to boot. I once contacted the manufacturer about the lousy service I was getting and his answer was, "Our responsibility ends when the car leaves the factory."

Toyota isn't like that at all. They WILL fix a car properly, for a fair price, and it'll stay fixed. That is, in the rare circumstance when something actually breaks.

[n2ize]

Do people actually buy cars outright these days ? I thought the big thing was to lease a car ?

[kf0rt]

I have his 1st edition packed away. He was a guest on the radio station I used to engineer, and he was even nice enough to sign it for me after the interview. This is about the best book a person can read prior to buying a new/used car. IIRC he was a long time car salesman somewhere in California. He reveals all the tricks, like when they gang up on the buyer in the little office and apply the pressure. He told me he received a lot of death threats right after the book first came out.

I was amazed how dead on he was, and how many of these tricks were actually pulled on us. It really is fun to recognize them and and know the right way to deal with them. I know we have saves lots of $$ over the years. Even if you aren't in the market for a vehicle at the moment, it's a great read now, and every time prior to buying.

I remember the same about the guy being an ex-used car salesgoon. Excellent read (think I must have read the first edition -- it was a long time ago). It's all psychology and the dimestore variety at that. :lol:

I hate buying cars from dealers (they're SUCH assholes when it comes to sales). I've bought two now from brokers associated with the Credit Union we belong to. These two were the easiest deals I ever made. On one of them, I knew what I wanted (an '88 Nissan Pulsar) and called them. They did a search, described what they found over the phone and I picked one (over the phone). They asked if I wanted to drive it (it was located at a dealer 30 miles away) or if they should have someone drive it up their office (10 miles away) where we could sign the paperwork. I chose the latter -- first time I saw that car, I owned it. Total "face time" with sales people = zero. That was fun.

Second time was with a "no hassle" place. Real late-model used car lot. Pick a car and let them make a photocopy of your driver's license. They hand you the keys and tell you to have a good time. Expectation is that you'll bring it back in a reasonable amount of time, but an hour or two would be okay. Want it? Go in the office and and find a closer to write it up; price is on the window. Total closing time, maybe 20 minutes, including initiating a loan.

I doubt I'll ever go to a dealer for a car again.

[kf0rt]

Do people actually buy cars outright these days ? I thought the big thing was to lease a car ?

I don't think I know anybody who is leasing. Financially, it's usually a bad deal unless you need a new car every 3 years and don't drive much.

[W4GPL]

My last car was a lease, had to terminate the lease early because I'm not currently able to drive (health reasons), but I found it to be a very reasonable experience. I was able to get into the car for less money down than if I had financed it, they gave me 15000 miles a year which should be plenty for anyone not having to travel extensively for business, and the monthly payment was a little less than if I had financed it. Also, when I demonstrated I was no longer able to drive, albeit temporarily (I hope), they let me out of the lease without any severe penalties.

[kf0rt]

Does anyone ever consider a car's or a brand's reputation for service or reliability when acquiring a new, or used vehicle? There's lots of information about how to "beat" the lizards that sell cars and about pricing and all that. But how often is that shiny new or slightly used vehicle gonna leave you stranded or waiting for a tow?

And when you take in in for service, is the shop going to actually fix the problem so it stays fixed? Will they do the job properly?

I've had such an education about this. I've owned Toyotas and another marque. The dependability and service and parts availability from Toyota is impeccable -- since '78 I have no complaints whatsoever with them. The "other marque" was a total disaster for reliability and service. They were always breaking, and a lot of those break-downs were simply very bad design/implementation. And this is a so-called "prestige" brand! And the service was deplorable. Some shops did things that were out-and-out just wrong! And they were pretty arrogant about it to boot. I once contacted the manufacturer about the lousy service I was getting and his answer was, "Our responsibility ends when the car leaves the factory."

Toyota isn't like that at all. They WILL fix a car properly, for a fair price, and it'll stay fixed. That is, in the rare circumstance when something actually breaks.

What was the other brand, Paul?

Worst cars I ever owned have had U.S. brands. Never owned a Toyota (not that I wouldn't). Toyota and Honda both have brand premium prices. I've found Nissan to be as good but lower cost to buy -- owned three of them and none have needed any maintenance to speak of. Subaru is good too -- had two of those. And two Fords and two Chevy's. Still have a '99 Blazer (114K miles on it). For every dime you put in the tank, put a dime in the maintenance kitty on that thing. If we ever get rid of it, I'd like to get a 4Runner.

[W1GUH]

I replied in a PM.


What was the other brand, Paul?

Worst cars I ever owned have had U.S. brands. Never owned a Toyota (not that I wouldn't). Toyota and Honda both have brand premium prices. I've found Nissan to be as good but lower cost to buy -- owned three of them and none have needed any maintenance to speak of. Subaru is good too -- had two of those. And two Fords and two Chevy's. Still have a '99 Blazer (114K miles on it). For every dime you put in the tank, put a dime in the maintenance kitty on that thing. If we ever get rid of it, I'd like to get a 4Runner.

[K7SGJ]

What was the other brand, Paul?

Worst cars I ever owned have had U.S. brands. Never owned a Toyota (not that I wouldn't). Toyota and Honda both have brand premium prices. I've found Nissan to be as good but lower cost to buy -- owned three of them and none have needed any maintenance to speak of. Subaru is good too -- had two of those. And two Fords and two Chevy's. Still have a '99 Blazer (114K miles on it). For every dime you put in the tank, put a dime in the maintenance kitty on that thing. If we ever get rid of it, I'd like to get a 4Runner.

We had two 4Runners and loved them. Drove one to 300K with few major repairs. We have owned nothing but Toyotas for many many years, and problem were always minor. Out where we live, and because of the need for hauling stuff, a truck is pretty much a must. I've had their trucks since the early 90s, and have never had a bad one. They always get specified maintenance when due. I rolled two Tundras within 6 weeks of each other. (incident with a deer, and avoiding another vehicle that crossed into my lane on a curve (600 miles on the clock on the 2nd}) Although I got beat up pretty well and both trucks were totaled, I think what saved me was the steel roof support they built into the trucks. I don't know if other makers do that, but it sure saved my ass. I'm sure other car makers build good cars these days, but I really don't want to experiment anymore.

[ka8ncr]

I prefer the act of attrition. I will act like I'm not sure I have a model picked out, and will let the sales person talk me into test driving everything possible. I'll consume as much time as possible, I'll take every one of his phone calls. I'll come back for short stints to pick up brochures. Act very undecided, but never take the car home for the weekend, never leave without your own car.

In short, I'll get them in a position where this sales person *has* to close this deal because they have so much time invested in it. Now, I'm ready to actually negotiate. I generally don't trade, although if I do I insist upon treating the two transactions as separately as possible, haggling as much as possible.

As already discussed, you need to know what the dealer paid for the car or what it is worth on the street. Ditto for your trade. From there, I like to come in with an insurmountable gap in price, either by a very low initial offer or letting them give their blue sky first offer. If they start with the "well, what do you want your monthly payment to be", I'll let them do their magic and reverse amortize the loan and really get upset when I see that they've done nothing with the price.

In short, I want them to fear that after all the time, all the test drives, all the calls, that I'll get up and leave and not come back. I only do this when I am prepared to buy, because coming back into the dealership after I've left ends the tactic. And when I inch closer to closing the deal, I will of course ask for more still. No floor mats in that car, I need some. What, a document fee? I am sorry, I don't pay those because it wasn't disclosed during negotiation, see ya. Dealers sometimes don't budge on fees, so I have had to ask what they'll do to offset that. I have walked out of deals because of $200 document fees, the whole time the salesman trying to shame me for backing out. Obvious profit-padding fees after negotiation piss me off. Some fees are fine though; I don't mind paying $50 to have some porter run and pick up a license plate.

I love haggling though. And I love finding the math tricks and playing the little four square game.