Ethanol E85

[K7SGJ]

Anyone running this in their vehicles? If so, how do you find the performance and/or mileage compares to conventional fuel. How convenient is it to get to an ethanol station in your area?

[KC2UGV]

I don't run it, but my neighbor does.

He's found the mileage is lower, but the E85 is cheaper; so economics for him, it's a wash, unless gas prices shoot up again. 2.95/gal for E85 vs. 3.65/gal for gasoline.

As for how convenient? We have about 10 gas stations that pump it, so with some planning, he's good to go E85 only. It's not too big a deal, because he can pump gasoline as well.

[PA5COR]

My Diesel engine doesn't like it ;)

[KC2UGV]

My Diesel engine doesn't like it ;)

Yeah, but with a teensy tiny bit of work, your diesel engine will like used vegetable oil :)

[WØTKX]

The public buses in Summit County CO smell like french fries. True story!

[W2NAP]

My Diesel engine doesn't like it ;)

I never understood why Americans didnt jump on the Diesel wagon long ago. Diesel is far better then Gas

[KC2UGV]

I never understood why Americans didnt jump on the Diesel wagon long ago. Diesel is far better then Gas

I'll give you two guesses...

[n2ize]

I never understood why Americans didnt jump on the Diesel wagon long ago. Diesel is far better then Gas

How is it better than gasoline ?

[WØTKX]

Diesel taxes are higher, and the new low sulfur EPA rules make it more expensive to refine than in days gone by. The crappy US passengar car diesel designs in the 80's turned the public quite sour to them. European diesel development continued... the new motors are clean, efficient and powerful, especially in these newer small displacement motors.

Anybody here drive the new Ford truck diesels? They kick ass. But you can't get the 65mpg Ford Fiesta diesel in the US!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm


Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=VLKAY)) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=DAI)) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.

Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2008/09/can_diesel_ever.html) to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."




http://images.businessweek.com/story/08/600/0904_mz_ecocar.jpg

[n2ize]

Do what any self respecting hippie would do, drive a hemp car. :)

[ka4dpo]

Diesel taxes are higher, and the new low sulfur EPA rules make it more expensive to refine than in days gone by. The crappy US passengar car diesel designs in the 80's turned the public quite sour to them. European diesel development continued... the new motors are clean, efficient and powerful, especially in these newer small displacement motors.

Anybody here drive the new Ford truck diesels? They kick ass. But you can't get the 65mpg Ford Fiesta diesel in the US!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm





http://images.businessweek.com/story/08/600/0904_mz_ecocar.jpg


No but you can get the VW Jetta TDI that gets 50 MPG on the highway.

[PA5COR]

Actually no work involved at all.
I ran sunflower oils 100% in the summer for the last years, specially in France where it was cheap as chips.
In winter a mix of 50/50% will do fine.
Old type preburn chamber Turbo engine, and the right plunger pump from Bosch does the trick.
Must have run 50K miles on sunflower oil now, closed the EGR valve when i bought the van as 1 year old van.
Liter diesel € 1.23, liter sunflower oil € 0.55.
;)



Yeah, but with a teensy tiny bit of work, your diesel engine will like used vegetable oil :)

[KC2UGV]

Actually no work involved at all.
I ran sunflower oils 100% in the summer for the last years, specially in France where it was cheap as chips.
In winter a mix of 50/50% will do fine.
Old type preburn chamber Turbo engine, and the right plunger pump from Bosch does the trick.
Must have run 50K miles on sunflower oil now, closed the EGR valve when i bought the van as 1 year old van.
Liter diesel € 1.23, liter sunflower oil € 0.55.
;)

I wonder if the type of oil matters... I thought with regular veggie oil (Like used in fryers) needs a heated tank?

[KA9MOT]

How is it better than gasoline ?

More Torque, substantially better fuel mileage. I used to have a 1984 GMC Crew Cab 1-ton dually with the 6.2. It got 22 MPG.

I am a big proponent of Natural Gas or LP. Or cooking oil in Diesels. I am an opponent of Hybrids and Electrics. The technology or economics aren't there yet.....then you have batteries that pollute a bunch to manufacture, and then need disposed of.

Seasick Steve said that his 1952 Chevy has spewed less pollutants in its's lifetime than manufacturing one Prius makes. I think he is right.

[NQ6U]

Do what any self respecting hippie would do, drive smoke a hemp car. :)

Fixed that for you.

[ab1ga]

...
Seasick Steve said that his 1952 Chevy has spewed less pollutants in its's lifetime than manufacturing one Prius makes. I think he is right.


He may be, but he didn't say how much pollution was released making that '52 Chevy, either.

73,

[kc7jty]

Ethanol for your vehicle, $3/gal. Same chit for your tummy, $65/gal. Something's phucked up somewhere.
http://www.shoppersvineyard.com/store/pc/EVERCLEAR-190-PROOF-GRAIN-ALCOHOL-1p10431.htm?utm_source=Vinquire&utm_medium=WineFeed&utm_content=Everclear+190+Proof+Grain+Alcohol&utm_campaign=base&v_traceback=c1016_2005_f1016_2318

[PA5COR]

Sunflower oil is quite thin at 20 Celcius, in France in our hollidays when the temperature during daytime reaches 30+ and at night 25 C it was thin like water.
The EV/PE Bosch diesel high pressure pump and seals are made for dealing of this kind of fuel.
In winter i went for the 50/50 % diesel/sunflower oil mix.
Another advantage is the cleaner burning of sunflower oil, causing much less soot, cleaning of the pump and cylinders.
The smell is hardly noticable.

Other veggie oils need pre heating like flax seed oil etc.
There are lots of corporations now building in large vans or trucks these alternative oil systems here.


I wonder if the type of oil matters... I thought with regular veggie oil (Like used in fryers) needs a heated tank?

[W5GA]

I wonder if the type of oil matters... I thought with regular veggie oil (Like used in fryers) needs a heated tank?
It does...the gel point of it (and things related, like biodiesel) is quite high, typically a bit above freezing. It also takes a really good filter.

[KC2UGV]

Sunflower oil is quite thin at 20 Celcius, in France in our hollidays when the temperature during daytime reaches 30+ and at night 25 C it was thin like water.
The EV/PE Bosch diesel high pressure pump and seals are made for dealing of this kind of fuel.
In winter i went for the 50/50 % diesel/sunflower oil mix.
Another advantage is the cleaner burning of sunflower oil, causing much less soot, cleaning of the pump and cylinders.
The smell is hardly noticable.

Other veggie oils need pre heating like flax seed oil etc.
There are lots of corporations now building in large vans or trucks these alternative oil systems here.


It does...the gel point of it (and things related, like biodiesel) is quite high, typically a bit above freezing. It also takes a really good filter.

Hm... I wonder how viable it'd be in WNY then? We get pretty cold winter days, and I would think the preheating of the tank would kill any benefit to running veggie oils over diesel?

[W5GA]

Hm... I wonder how viable it'd be in WNY then? We get pretty cold winter days, and I would think the preheating of the tank would kill any benefit to running veggie oils over diesel?
Well, except for cold start the preheat can be provided by the vehicles exhaust stream. Cold start would require something like an electric preheater, similar to a tank heater for a radiator.

So, you have a small expense there. Bounce that against being able to get the oil for free from most fast food joints in many cases, because they have to pay to have it hauled off in normal circumstances. The used oil then needs only filtration, and pretty good filtration at that, to get the food particles out. This filtration needs to be fine enough to keep the particles out of the fuel injection pump and the injectors, so would probably need to be on the order 10 microns absolute.

[KC2UGV]

Well, except for cold start the preheat can be provided by the vehicles exhaust stream. Cold start would require something like an electric preheater, similar to a tank heater for a radiator.

So, you have a small expense there. Bounce that against being able to get the oil for free from most fast food joints in many cases, because they have to pay to have it hauled off in normal circumstances. The used oil then needs only filtration, and pretty good filtration at that, to get the food particles out. This filtration needs to be fine enough to keep the particles out of the fuel injection pump and the injectors, so would probably need to be on the order 10 microns absolute.

Hm, so it might be a viable venture... And, 10 microns I think is about a standard fuel filter anyway (If I recall correctly).

I think I need to look into a diesel for the next vehicle. I wonder if they make diesel Ford Escape-like vehicles (The wife fell in love with the Escape).

[W5GA]

I think I need to look into a diesel for the next vehicle. I wonder if they make diesel Ford Escape-like vehicles (The wife fell in love with the Escape).
Yes they do, but not available in the U.S.
Typical :irked:

[PA5COR]

http://www.freewebs.com/hcii/pumpidentification.htm
Look for your dieselpump and if it is usable first.
Inline Diesel pumps are the Holy Grail for Vegetable oils use!
These pumps have proved very reliable, and are made in a variety of sizes, and by different makers.
All share the general appearance of the Bosch PE above. They are available as single element units, and multi cylinder units up to 8 cylinder, and in some cases more.
Needing little in the way of modification, these pumps work extremely well on Vegetable oils, even unheated, in a single tank scenario



- BOSCH EPVE for Turbo Applications



That's mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel_production

Lots to find on the net how to make your own veggie oil for the diesel engine.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

[ab1ga]

So, you have a small expense there. Bounce that against being able to get the oil for free from most fast food joints in many cases, because they have to pay to have it hauled off in normal circumstances...


While biodiesel is a neat idea, it will probably remain a niche energy supply; one only need to think about the relative amounts of cooking oil used in one's own town compared to the amount of fuel consumed by cars to get the basic idea. Also, one of our club members decided to experiment with biodiesel for his own use and found the supply severely limited - in many cases the supplies of fryer oil now take back the used oil, which they sell to small biodiesel plants nearby. That's not a bad thing, but it needs to be kept in mind when considering the feasibility of individual biodiesel production.

73,

[W5GA]

While biodiesel is a neat idea, it will probably remain a niche energy supply; one only need to think about the relative amounts of cooking oil used in one's own town compared to the amount of fuel consumed by cars to get the basic idea. Also, one of our club members decided to experiment with biodiesel for his own use and found the supply severely limited - in many cases the supplies of fryer oil now take back the used oil, which they sell to small biodiesel plants nearby. That's not a bad thing, but it needs to be kept in mind when considering the feasibility of individual biodiesel production.

73,
The major biodiesel plants have mostly shut down now. Yet another "green" fuel that isn't sustainable without subsidy, and isn't sustainable long term regardless of subsidy. The earth is currently losing arable land at a rate of ~15k sq. mi./yr. to development.

[KC2UGV]

The major biodiesel plants have mostly shut down now. Yet another "green" fuel that isn't sustainable without subsidy, and isn't sustainable long term regardless of subsidy. The earth is currently losing arable land at a rate of ~15k sq. mi./yr. to development.

It's sustainable without subsidies. It's not sustainable when under constant attack by Petrol lobbies. Big difference.

[kb2crk]

Getting free oil has been slowed down here in GA when the state required the fast food joints to use a certified company to pick up the hazardous waste.

[PA5COR]

Mac Donalds here has all their supply trucks running on their own recycled oil clever gits.....
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/environment/2007-07-02-mcdonalds-oil_N.htm
Older article but they do it in Europe and the UAE as well

[W5GA]

It's sustainable without subsidies. It's not sustainable when under constant attack by Petrol lobbies. Big difference.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/03/expiration-of-biodiesel-subsidy-ends-bad-year-for-industry/

Finally, the beginning of a new year meant the expiry of the tax credit. With lower oil prices, biodiesel was no longer financially viable. Heading into 2010, the U.S. biodiesel industry is running at only 15 percent of its capacity, a situation likely to get worse as the year goes on. The House of Representatives passed an extension to the subsidy late in 2009 but it has yet to make it through the Senate. If the extension does get approved, it would still only provide a brief respite, unless oil prices start to rise significantly again.


http://biomasshub.com/biodiesel-subsidy-boondoggle/


Despite a generous carve out from the EPA’s RFS2 (http://biomasshub.com/knowledge-center/topic-guides/renewable-fuel-standard/), the biodiesel industry is hurting right now.The expiration of a $1 tax credit in 2009 removed a key guarantor of price competitiveness with petroleum diesel. Although the House has passed a bill to extend the credit, the biodiesel tax incentive has been written into at least three Senate bills since November, but has yet to reach a floor vote. Recent efforts to revive the credit (http://www.biomassintel.com/biodiesel-tax-credit-gets-nixed-jobs-bill/) by Senators Baucus (D-MT) and Grassley (R-IA) have been buried by health care, record snowfall in Washington, and a Reid (D-NV) rewrite of the Jobs bill.
As a result, many plants throughout the U.S. have either shut down or stand idle. Biodiesel Magazine reports that some have tried to pass the now-additional $1-per-gallon cost for biodiesel along to customers (http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=4028), but have failed to gain traction in the market.


http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/12/28/biodiesel-subsidies/


The struggling biodiesel industry is bracing for more bad news. An important federal subsidy for the renewable fuel will expire in just a few days. Some predict losing the subsidy could shut-down U.S. biodiesel production.


The subsidy went away, and so did the industry, because it's not cost competetive. Guess again.

[KC2UGV]

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/03/expiration-of-biodiesel-subsidy-ends-bad-year-for-industry/


http://biomasshub.com/biodiesel-subsidy-boondoggle/



http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/12/28/biodiesel-subsidies/



The subsidy went away, and so did the industry, because it's not cost competetive. Guess again.

Because of the low cost of oil...

Pray tell, how do you think the cost of oil is so low?

[W5GA]

The price of oil is driven by speculators, and all that matters is that it's low now. #2 diesel would have to be over $5/gl for bio to be competitive without subsidy, and that's not going to happen anytime soon.
And the bottom line is that you said it didn't need subsidy to survive, which in the current market is patently false - as I've demonstrated.

[KC2UGV]

The price of oil is driven by speculators, and all that matters is that it's low now. #2 diesel would have to be over $5/gl for bio to be competitive without subsidy, and that's not going to happen anytime soon.
And the bottom line is that you said it didn't need subsidy to survive, which in the current market is patently false - as I've demonstrated.

It [biodiesel] needs a subsidy to survive, in order to be on a level playing field with oil. Oil companies get hundreds of billions annually in subsidies and tax breaks.

How much do you think a gallon of gasoline (Or diesel) would cost if the ENTIRE cost of the fuel was transferred to the consumer at the pump, instead of propped up by subsidies, tax breaks, and tax dollars paying for the ramifications?

It'd be about $10/gallon.