Vintage motorcycle question

[w0aew]

The guy who does handyman work for us, Rick, came by on his 1938 Indian motorcycle the other day. This is the second time he's rebuilt it since obtaining it disassembled about 30 years ago. Anyhow, it's one of those rigs with the suicide shift, etc. When he started it, he fiddled around with something called (I think) the "spark advance." Then he climbed up on the seat and jumped down onto the starter. After working up quite a sweat he finally got it to turn over.

What's the "spark advance"? How does it relate to later technology that must have superseded this?

I also noticed that the lights varied in brilliance in synch with the engine speed. No voltage regulator?

I asked Rick these questions but he'd had a few brews and I couldn't make out his responses. Somehow he manages to ride this thing regardless.

I guess I'm an appliance rider...my Kawasaki Vulcan just goes with no drama. Even my old CB360T was easier to get going and keep going versus Rick's Indian.

By the way, here's a picture of the work in progress, sans trim chrome and paint.....

4596

[W5GA]

The guy who does handyman work for us, Rick, came by on his 1938 Indian motorcycle the other day. This is the second time he's rebuilt it since obtaining it disassembled about 30 years ago. Anyhow, it's one of those rigs with the suicide shift, etc. When he started it, he fiddled around with something called (I think) the "spark advance." Then he climbed up on the seat and jumped down onto the starter. After working up quite a sweat he finally got it to turn over.

What's the "spark advance"? How does it relate to later technology that must have superseded this?
All spark fired engines have spark advance of some kind. If the spark occurs before the piston reaches top dead center in the cylinder, then it's advanced. If it fires after top dead center, then its retarded. Some advance makes it easier to start. Too much advance will make it hard to start and overheat, as will having it retarded. Advance also (within reason) makes additional power. With computer control, the computer decides where the spark advance needs to be.



I also noticed that the lights varied in brilliance in synch with the engine speed. No voltage regulator?
you can see this sometimes on newer cars...particularly if the idle speed is slow. The alternator doesn't put out enough juice without RPM.

[WØTKX]

The spark has to be timed just right for proper ignition, before the piston reaches the top of the cylinder. At lower RPM's the velocity of the piston is lower... Less advance is needed. At higher RPM's the spark needs to happen earlier on the piston upstroke, due to the higher speed of the piston.

Older vehicles had a manual advance. Older farm tractors were probably the last vehicles to quit using them. Cars had it too. More modern vehicles use vacuum advance, spinning weights, or both. Since the vacuum increases at higher RPMs, that works. The distributor in many older cars had both, the weights inside the distributor would swing out out. Little arms, usually against a spring. This would rotate the plate that holds the points, and change the timing. Vacuum uses the "suck" from the intake, borrowing that air pressure to move the points.

You friend's bike had neither, and the rider would have to find the setting by feel and ear... fun, eh?

Nowadays, many vehicles have electronic sensors and computers to set the timing "just right". More power, and better mileage.

[K7SGJ]

I'm no authority on motorcycles, but the headlights were probably run off of a coil, similar to the magneto, that generated a low ac voltage when the engine was running. Needless to say With increase in engine rpm, more voltage, brighter light. I have an old tractor that runs that way. We folks is too stupid to turn off lights when not needed, thus draining the battery. I also imagine the Indian had nothing but a kick start, so no battery.

[NA4BH]

Sharp looking ride.

[KG4CGC]

A bike like that is a labor of love. I'd love a replica, with modern running gear of course.

What about this?

http://www.scooterdepot.us/300cc-motorcycles-two-cylinder-water-cooled-cruiser-style-p-448.html lulz

[W5GA]

The spark has to be timed just right for proper ignition, before the piston reaches the top of the cylinder. At lower RPM's the velocity of the piston is lower... Less advance is needed. At higher RPM's the spark needs to happen earlier on the piston upstroke, due to the higher speed of the piston.

Older vehicles had a manual advance. Older farm tractors were probably the last vehicles to quit using them. Cars had it too. More modern vehicles use vacuum advance, spinning weights, or both. Since the vacuum increases at higher RPMs, that works. The distributor in many older cars had both, the weights inside the distributor would swing out out. Little arms, usually against a spring. This would rotate the plate that holds the points, and change the timing. Vacuum uses the "suck" from the intake, borrowing that air pressure to move the points.

You friend's bike had neither, and the rider would have to find the setting by feel and ear... fun, eh?

Nowadays, many vehicles have electronic sensors and computers to set the timing "just right". More power, and better mileage.

While what you say it quite true, you're suffering from a bit of time compression. Vacuum advance, weights and springs, in fact distributors - all went away completely in the mid '90s.

[ki4itv]

Sharp looking ride.

Yea, I love that bike. Looks more my style without the chrome too.

[w0aew]

A bike like that is a labor of love. I'd love a replica, with modern running gear of course.

What about this?

http://www.scooterdepot.us/300cc-motorcycles-two-cylinder-water-cooled-cruiser-style-p-448.html lulz

Interesting. Made in China?

[WØTKX]

While what you say it quite true, you're suffering from a bit of time compression. Vacuum advance, weights and springs, in fact distributors - all went away completely in the mid '90s.

I knew I would be corrected by the proper authority. Even if I put in this bit:


Nowadays, many vehicles have electronic sensors and computers to set the timing "just right". More power, and better mileage.

Thanks for pointing it out. :roll:

[KG4CGC]

Interesting. Made in China?
Yes. And part of the joke. Get it?
American and Japanese bike builders will not produce small displacement street machines any more except for a single model 250 that is way over priced and Honda has a 150 scooter priced over 4500. At least that's how the American market is. Not everyone wants 750 to 1800 cc bikes.

These guys out of Korea and China are filling a niche that other bike builders have decided is simply, beneath them.

[NQ6U]

These guys out of Korea and China are filling a niche that other bike builders have decided is simply, beneath them.

It's not so much that it's beneath them, it's because building big bikes is where the money is. It's exactly the same scenario that ended up biting American automobile manufacturers on the ass during the late Nineties and early Oughts. They concentrated on building behemoth SUVs while completely ignoring smaller, more economical cars. Then, when gas prices jumped up, they were caught with their pants down when Americans started buying cars from Japan and Korea. That's not quite so likely to happen to motorcycle manufacturers since most of us want bigger bikes anyway but one can't help but wonder if ceding a portion of the market to Korea and China might not be such a good long-term strategy.

[KG4CGC]

It's not so much that it's beneath them, it's because that's where the money is. It's exactly the same scenario that ended up biting American automobile manufacturers on the ass during the late Nineties and early Oughts. They concentrated on building behemoth SUVs while completely ignoring smaller, more economical cars. Then, when gas prices jumped up, they were caught with their pants down when Americans started buying cars from Japan and Korea. That's not quite so likely to happen to motorcycle manufacturers since most of us want bigger bikes anyway but one can't help but wonder if ceding a portion of the market to Korea and China might not be such a good long-term strategy.

I think they are suffering the same arrogance of car builders when companies like Dodge/Plymouth dropped the Neon and closed the factory after a neighborhood with houses and subdivisions sprung up around the factory.

http://powersports.honda.com/2010/sh150i.aspx Saw one at the dealer. $4500. Stupid.

[w2amr]

The guy who does handyman work for us, Rick, came by on his 1938 Indian motorcycle the other day. This is the second time he's rebuilt it since obtaining it disassembled about 30 years ago. Anyhow, it's one of those rigs with the suicide shift, etc. When he started it, he fiddled around with something called (I think) the "spark advance." Then he climbed up on the seat and jumped down onto the starter. After working up quite a sweat he finally got it to turn over.

What's the "spark advance"? How does it relate to later technology that must have superseded this?

I also noticed that the lights varied in brilliance in synch with the engine speed. No voltage regulator?

I asked Rick these questions but he'd had a few brews and I couldn't make out his responses. Somehow he manages to ride this thing regardless.

I guess I'm an appliance rider...my Kawasaki Vulcan just goes with no drama. Even my old CB360T was easier to get going and keep going versus Rick's Indian.

By the way, here's a picture of the work in progress, sans trim chrome and paint.....

4596
Way cool.:agree:

[w2amr]

Yes. And part of the joke. Get it?
American and Japanese bike builders will not produce small displacement street machines any more except for a single model 250 that is way over priced and Honda has a 150 scooter priced over 4500. At least that's how the American market is. Not everyone wants 750 to 1800 cc bikes.

These guys out of Korea and China are filling a niche that other bike builders have decided is simply, beneath them.Go try and find parts for it in a few years.

[K7SGJ]

With the quality that goes into every bike they make, it will last forever. You don't need no stinking parts.

[KG4CGC]

Go try and find parts for it in a few years.I was saying the same thing in 2004. Not only are parts there, the dealers who specialize in China scooters have them on hand. Whenever I want a part for my Ruckus, I have to order it and wait because the big Honda dealers don't keep them in stock. It might be a different story for people who live in Atlanta or some other big city but for me, in the heart of the upstate of SC, I won't be getting any parts the same day unless it happens to a part shared with a big bike like the valve clearance shims.

So, I understand where you're coming from but Chinese scooters are a big market around here with many dealers who only work on Chinese scooters. If I can take it apart or tear it up, I can fix it. Sometimes that means buying new tools.

[KG4CGC]

With the quality that goes into every bike they make, it will last forever. You don't need no stinking parts.
That's what I thought about Honda. Since 2005, they have outsourced more of their parts and some assemblies to China, Taiwan and Korea. Just depends on market and model.

[w2amr]

I was saying the same thing in 2004. Not only are parts there, the dealers who specialize in China scooters have them on hand. Whenever I want a part for my Ruckus, I have to order it and wait because the big Honda dealers don't keep them in stock. It might be a different story for people who live in Atlanta or some other big city but for me, in the heart of the upstate of SC, I won't be getting any parts the same day unless it happens to a part shared with a big bike like the valve clearance shims.

So, I understand where you're coming from but Chinese scooters are a big market around here with many dealers who only work on Chinese scooters. If I can take it apart or tear it up, I can fix it. Sometimes that means buying new tools.
Must be a geographic thing, I don't see any of them around here. Some crotch rockets , but mostly big cruisers.

[KG4CGC]

Must be a geographic thing, I don't see any of them around here. Some crotch rockets , but mostly big cruisers.
We have a large market for the big bikes too. $26K Harleys and $24K Hondas roll off the showroom floor every season. Then the poor shmucks realize that an 800 pound bike is way more than they thought it would be to deal with and sell them in the Fall or following Spring. I'm 5'6" and usually hover around 195 pounds. What am I going to do with a bike that weighs in over 350 pounds?

[w2amr]

We have a large market for the big bikes too. $26K Harleys and $24K Hondas roll off the showroom floor every season. Then the poor shmucks realize that an 800 pound bike is way more than they thought it would be to deal with and sell them in the Fall or following Spring. I'm 5'6" and usually hover around 195 pounds. What am I going to do with a bike that weighs in over 350 pounds?
http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/DM_SkywalkerStilts.jpg

[KG4CGC]

Get Off Mah Lawn, George!

[w2amr]

Get Off Mah Lawn, George!:lol:

[N8YX]

Too bad Kawasaki discontinued this a few years back:
http://www.kawasakimotorcycle.org/images/V800D.png