What is Right About America

[n2ize]

A great video that should restore our pride in America. When someone tells us what is wroong with America we should tell tham al that is right with America and why America is great...

Watch it and restore your pride.

Tragedy or Hope ? (http://www.archive.org/details/Tragedyo1972)

[NQ6U]

From the comments on that page:


You have to keep perspective when you watch this ephemera propaganda film. It was during a time when there was a lot of activism, i.e anti Vietnam war, civil rights, womens' rights, etc. During that time there was an exaggerated fear among established society that somehow such movements would corrupt young America and destroy the fabric of the nation and, that it was somehow linked to communism. To a moderate degree this film also perpetrates the notion that somehow free speech is... un-American.

In retrospect we now see the absurdity of the exaggerated fears expressed in this propaganda film and others like it. This does add a touch of comic element to the film. Watch it bearing in mind the time it was made and the mindset of the period.

I think that puts it pretty well.

[W3MIV]

Fairbanks was a hired propagandist. All of this material was produced by government funding through a program named COINTELPRO. Don't ask me how I know.

[NQ6U]

Fairbanks was a hired propagandist. All of this material was produced by government funding through a program named COINTELPRO. Don't ask me how I know.

How do you know, Albi?

[NQ6U]

I just noticed that the film was dated 1972, which means it really came late to the party. The activist movement was winding down quickly by that time.

[W3MIV]

How do you know, Albi?

I would have to kill you.

Anyone who would like to know more about those years, and what really happened then (as opposed to the bullshit that has been published then and later) should read Edward Morgan's "What really happened to the 1960s." It is a very detailed analysis of how the media coopted all forms of open debate and shifted the focus onto the kids -- onto the "generation" -- and away from the changes they (we) sought to bring about.

And, no, Carl, it went well past 1972. Also, Fairbanks's movie (one of many) was released in '72 but production began earlier. He had irons in many fires, all of them illicit and funded by "various" alphabet agencies of the government.

[N2NH]

For those who are interested, here's a bit on COINTELPRO. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO)

Interesting choice of vid. Very interesting.

http://mchenrycountyblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Very-Interesting-Artie-Johnson.png:lol:

[NQ6U]

And, no, Carl, it went well past 1972.

Yes, COINTELPRO did, but what I meant was that their primary target—the social activists and anti-war movement—was winding down by 1972. The culprit was disco, I think. Not the music itself, but the self-absorbed hedonism of the Seventies it represented.

[n2ize]

Yes, COINTELPRO did, but what I meant was that their primary target—the social activists and anti-war movement—was winding down by 1972. The culprit was disco, I think. Not the music itself, but the self-absorbed hedonism of the Seventies it represented.

Actually the 1960's was a rather conservative time in our history. It was also the last time we had a true sense of decency, morals, values and a strong "hard work ethic" when it came to job, family, and education. The radicalism of the "1960's" was really the "radicalism of the 1970's". It becane around 1968-69 and lasted till around 1975 when it rapidly died. In it;s wake we were left with immorality, indecency, laziness, self centeredness, severely weakened values and a weak shell of what was once a strong educational system. Essentially what happened was that the hippies, the yippies, and the radicals of the late 60's and early to mid 1970's tore out and destroyed the heart of what was once a great, strong, proud and hard working nation.

[NQ6U]

Actually the 1960's was a rather conservative time in our history. It was also the last time we had a true sense of decency, morals, values and a strong "hard work ethic" when it came to job, family, and education. The radicalism of the "1960's" was really the "radicalism of the 1970's". It becane around 1968-69 and lasted till around 1975 when it rapidly died. In it;s wake we were left with immorality, indecency, laziness, self centeredness, severely weakened values and a weak shell of what was once a strong educational system. Essentially what happened was that the hippies, the yippies, and the radicals of the late 60's and early to mid 1970's tore out and destroyed the heart of what was once a great, strong, proud and hard working nation.

That's a huge oversimplification, John, and I'd tackle it if I didn't know your penchant for trolling behavior.

[n2ize]

That's a huge oversimplification, John, and I'd tackle it if I didn't know your penchant for trolling behavior.

Look at the student riots of the late 60;s and early 70's It wasn't a fight for better education it was a fight for a "made easy" approach to education. Simpler tests, easier assignments, replacement of classical literature or supplementing classic literature with modern "literature" garbage, increased emphasis on the modern arts and more and more mickey mouse humanities courses along with a contempt for the sciences, engineering, business, etc. which were looked upon as the "establishment curriculum".. It's a perfect example of the decline we took in education thanks to the "let's tune out and cop out: generation. I have a great deal of contempt for that period in our history. I consider it a blight on our country and the world in general.

[NQ6U]

Look at the student riots of the late 60;s and early 70's It wasn't a fight for better education it was a fight for a "made easy" approach to education. Simpler tests, easier assignments, replacement of classical literature or supplementing classic literature with modern "literature" garbage, increased emphasis on the modern arts and more and more mickey mouse humanities courses along with a contempt for the sciences, engineering, business, etc. which were looked upon as the "establishment curriculum".. It's a perfect example of the decline we took in education thanks to the "let's tune out and cop out: generation. I have a great deal of contempt for that period in our history. I consider it a blight on our country and the world in general.


"Ask not for whom the John trolls; he trolls for thee."

[W3MIV]

"Ask not for whom the John trolls; he trolls for thee."

And, ultimateleeee, unsuccessfulleeeee.

[KG4CGC]

I would have to kill you.

Anyone who would like to know more about those years, and what really happened then (as opposed to the bullshit that has been published then and later) should read Edward Morgan's "What really happened to the 1960s." It is a very detailed analysis of how the media coopted all forms of open debate and shifted the focus onto the kids -- onto the "generation" -- and away from the changes they (we) sought to bring about.

And, no, Carl, it went well past 1972. Also, Fairbanks's movie (one of many) was released in '72 but production began earlier. He had irons in many fires, all of them illicit and funded by "various" alphabet agencies of the government.
Would you say it was a fine example of Killing the Messenger?

[n2ize]

"Ask not for whom the John trolls; he trolls for thee."

I'm not trolling. I honestly have a great deal of contempt for that point in our history. I feel that the whole mess... the radicalization of youth, the "hippie movement", etc. did a lot of damage to our country. Damage that has yet to be repaired. It is part of the reason we no longer see ourselves as a community. It has led to lowered standards in education and many other things.

[W3MIV]

I'm not trolling. I honestly have a great deal of contempt for that point in our history. I feel that the whole mess... the radicalization of youth, the "hippie movement", etc. did a lot of damage to our country. Damage that has yet to be repaired. It is part of the reason we no longer see ourselves as a community. It has led to lowered standards in education and many other things.


You are half-right, but it is obvious that you were not there. The damage was done by the establishment, by the government and its masters who managed the media to subvert the message and focus on those elements that a conservative, older generation would fasten on to the detriment of the message.

Thinking along the lines you display is precisely what won the victory for the establishment.

[KG4CGC]

I'm not trolling. I honestly have a great deal of contempt for that point in our history. I feel that the whole mess... the radicalization of youth, the "hippie movement", etc. did a lot of damage to our country. Damage that has yet to be repaired. It is part of the reason we no longer see ourselves as a community. It has led to lowered standards in education and many other things.
John has awaken in a parallel state but he has not realized yet that during the night, he made the jump back over in his sleep.

[n2ize]

You are half-right, but it is obvious that you were not there. The damage was done by the establishment, by the government and its masters who managed the media to subvert the message and focus on those elements that a conservative, older generation would fasten on to the detriment of the message.

Thinking along the lines you display is precisely what won the victory for the establishment.

But I was there. I was around during those times and I was well aware of what the "anti-establliishment" was doing. I am not saying everything the "anti-establishment said or did was wrong, or that everything the establishment did was right. However, among the radical, anti-establishment counter culture there were a lot of bad, self centered ideas and behaviors. Common courtesy and decency went out the window. Loose morals became the norm. Instant gratification was demanded. On the educational front, easier courses, less work, reduced emphasis on the classical arts and a demand for greater emphasis on simplistic contemporary arts. An overall contempt for the certain curriculums like business, engineering, sciences, etc. which were seen as a part of the evil establishment. And, an overall rejection of personal responsibility... blame "the man" for everything.

yes, it is true that the "established system" did exploit the young people of the time and the counterculture to perpetuate their military and cold war agenda's. But it still doesn't change the fact that the counterculture is itself to blame for many of the declines we have witnessed.

[NQ6U]

You may have been there, John, but you weren't really There. Not to say that there is no merit in what you say, only that it's a superficial view of the events of the Sixties/Seventies.

[W3MIV]

You may have been there, John, but you weren't really There. Not to say that there is no merit in what you say, only that it's a superficial view of the events of the Sixties/Seventies.

Very superficial. And with very little merit. It is very reflective of the imprint mass media in harness to the establishment put on those times and on the efforts to right the injustices that were rife in American society. Every detail of his post misses a significant point by a wide margin. It is the view of a child watching from the outside and never quite making the connection with what was taking place. To rebut them individually would be a waste of time and effort. Suffice to say, in 1962 I was twenty. The decade that passed between then and my passing through the artificial barrier beyond which no one would trust me anymore ( ;) ), some of the most frustrating attempts at making positive changes to an establishment-shackled society were continually reinterpreted by the mass media in just the terms that John has characterized.

[n2ize]

You may have been there, John, but you weren't really There. Not to say that there is no merit in what you say, only that it's a superficial view of the events of the Sixties/Seventies.

I'm sorry, but when I look back at the counterculture and what it stood for I see a lot of negative things. For one I saw a sense of selfishness. "Tuine in and drop out man", "I wanna do my own thing man", "I want to do it my own way". All these led to a decline in our ability to see our nation and our society as a community. The irony is that at one level the counterculture embraced "communal living". But there sense of "community" was, "either you do it my was or I reject society and drop out.. As opposed to the traditional sense of American society as a community in which we all work together. Another area was that of "personal responsibility". Out of the counterculture was born an attitude of, "the man made me do it"... "I screwed up my life because the man gave me no choice". "I'm a drunk, drug addict, (fill in the blank) because the establishment" forced me to be that way". I mean why take even a little personal responsibility ? While it is true that our society is not perfect and there are areas where people have little choice or opportunity. But instead of working as a society to fix those problems the counterculture chose to blame everything on "the establishment" and cop out rather than work as a community of Americans to fix it. The hard work ethic. hard work and dedication in education, in ones job or profession. Hard work to achieve good results in life rather than the instant gratification. Why work hard to achieve a quality education. Simply demand that the college or university replace all the "hard traditional establishment courses and curriculum" with modern made easy Mickey Mouse courses, get a degree in some BS social science and then get some job as a program director somewhere. Why work hard, study, and learn the classic arts when you can just pound on some sand and spit and call it art ?

[NQ6U]

Perhaps, John, but all you're doing is echoing the establishment view of events, not what was really happening. I never pegged you as being a rigid thinker who went along with what was fed to him by the Powers That Be, so I'm going to just mark this down as another of your troll posts.

And, BTW, that "I wanna do it my own way" thing was indicative of the kind of thinking that brought you the very computer you typed it on—not to mention the world-wide network you used to post it to the rest of us.

[WØTKX]

And Kent State was justified. Kill the dam hippies, not real 'mericans.

[n2ize]

Perhaps, John, but all you're doing is echoing the establishment view of events, not what was really happening. I never pegged you as being a rigid thinker who went along with what was fed to him by the Powers That Be, so I'm going to just mark this down as another of your troll posts.

And, BTW, that "I wanna do it my own way" thing was indicative of the kind of thinking that brought you the very computer you typed it on—not to mention the world-wide network you used to post it to the rest of us.

There is a difference between "doing it your own way" when building and creating something. Individualism is an important part of creativity. But there is a big difference between the kind of individualism that brought you such things as the first computer and the individualism of the counterculture which was basically an excuse for ridding themselves of hard work and responsibility and largely the reason why the contributions of the counterculture are so far and few between.

[NQ6U]

There is a difference between "doing it your own way" when building and creating something. Individualism is an important part of creativity. But there is a big difference between the kind of individualism that brought you such things as the first computer and the individualism of the counterculture which was basically an excuse for ridding themselves of hard work and responsibility and largely the reason why the contributions of the counterculture are so far and few between.

You're just demonstrating that you know nothing whatsoever about this counterculture of which you speak. You should probably give up on it before you dig yourself in any deeper.

[n2ize]

And Kent State was justified. Kill the dam hippies, not real 'mericans.

The Kent state shootings were not justified. But just the same, the actions of the protesters were not justified either. A few days before the shooting they set fire to and burned the ROTC building. That was so typical of the counterculture, to deprive other students of the right to have an ROTC program. it was part of their "its my way or the highway" attitude which showed blatant lack of concern or consideration for the rights of others. Not to mention the lives that were risked when they burned the building down. What if someone, perhaps a firefighter was killed ? I guess the countercultures ideas would say, "firemen are part of the establishment so who cares what happens to them".

Did these students deserve to be shot at by the National Guard or anyone else ? Absolutely not !! The shootings can not be justified, then, now or in the future. But neither can some of the violent, antisocial, acts of many of the demonstrators.

[n2ize]

You're just demonstrating that you know nothing whatsoever about this counterculture of which you speak. You should probably give up on it before you dig yourself in any deeper.

Name something that the countterculture did that was worthwhile ?

[NQ6U]

I already did.

[n2ize]

I already did.

The computer was not invented by the counterculture. The computer was developed over many years founded by ideas that go back centuries. Many of the people involved in the invention of the computer were people who did not necessarily embrace 1960's 70's counterculture ideals. Some of them were conservative and very much a part of mainstream establishment. They were people who worked hard, studied hard, had a strong work ethic and took personal responsibility for themselves and the things they did. Some of them were funded by corporations, large universities, government entities (including the much hated military, CIA, etc.). Some of the people involved in the computers development may have identified themselves as "hippies" or "countercultures". Some may have even advocated for the use of various psychoactive chemicals. So have I been known to do the same but I am certainly not a part of the counterculture. But regardless, the development of the computer cannot be laid solely at the dirty bare feet of the counterculture. It took many to make it work.

[W3MIV]

Were I to write about a lot of that stuff, the title I would like to choose was already taken by the late Elmer Keith: I would call it, "Hell, I was THERE!"

I never took part in any "freedom rides," but I followed them avidly. I was employed full time, having graduated from high school in 1961 and gone right to work in the graphics industry. Youth always tends to liberal idealism, and I was no exception. I stood and swayed in a crowd of Blacks somewhere on the Mall in August, 1963, having ridden a church bus down from Baltimore. Due to multiple echoes and the interference among the speaker poles, it was almost impossible to understand a lot of King's speech; I listened enrapt to it later. But it didn't matter; never before had I been so close for so long to so many Blacks and I learned many tiny lessons in life and living in those few hours. It was eye-opening for a honky living amidst terrorized neighbors in a "changing" neighborhood. Among other things, I learned that the Blacks seeking to move in were as terror-stricken as the Whites trying to move out. The only common denominator was that each group was seeking something they felt to be better. Only later did we ever learn that better might have meant staying together rather than permitting ourselves to be repelled like magnetic poles by time-worn legacies of hate and distrust.

That hate and distrust was at the core of much of the student protests that began with the Civil Rights movement, but gradually grew to subsume a wide range of issues including the growing war in Vietnam and the government's duplicity, the stupid double standards that applied to men and women, the outworn notions of prudery that fronted for gross hypocrisy among adults, and the rigid anti-liberalism we saw at every hand.

The outrageous conduct came later, and it came as a result of having the real concerns of youth ignored and distorted by a media in the pocket of the establishment. Even Eric Hoffer, to his everlasting shame, participated in the campaign to denigrate the efforts of the "youth movement" to have their petitions heard. It became a smarmily managed campaign by media to portray the issues as a "generation gap" and as just a bunch of kids raising a little hell. Nobody even bothered to read the Port Huron proclamation.

Of course, in the midst of all this I was called by Uncle Lew Hershey and elected to voluntarily enlist to have some say in my assignment. It is probably why I am alive to post this today.

When I came back, of course, Vietnam had become the primary focus -- understandable if it were your life and future on the lotto list. Still the media sided with the establishment. Still the demonstrations were portrayed as "violent" when most were not. Campus sit-ins were viewed as trespass instead of an invitation to dialogue, and the demonstrations and groups became ever wilder and more unrestrained as the message they sought to have heard was ignored. Where some semblance of attention might have produced a mutual plane of respect, the establishment response bred nothing but increased radicalism.

View those times as you will; without them, many of the "rights" we take for granted today -- a sometimes, somewhat equality between men and women, for example -- would never have come to pass had those people that the late Jennings Randolph -- Asshole of West Virginia -- described as "braless bubbleheads" not taken to the streets and protested; without them, LBJ would have won another term and the war would likely have gone on even longer than it did under Nixon (indeed, it might have gone as long as A'stan continues). Without those committed and courageous young men and women the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act might never have gotten out of committee. Without their lead, women might still be in the clutches of back-alley abortionists and struggling to manage their own reproductive rights.

Don't pin the blame for your woes on the sixties -- pin them on your own feckless generations for having dropped the ball and sat back on your fat asses and watched the forces of right-wing darkness return like a new age of McCarthyism.

"Send not for whom the bell tolls...

[N2NH]

"Ask not for whom the John trolls; he trolls for thee."

I can see how much he hates that period in history. The demonstrations of that period were not about academic standards but against a very unpopular war in Southeast Asia fought over oil. So much of history. That's a troll version if I've ever seen one.

[N2NH]

Were I to write about a lot of that stuff, the title I would like to choose was already taken by the late Elmer Keith: I would call it, "Hell, I was THERE!"

I never took part in any "freedom rides," but I followed them avidly. I was employed full time, having graduated from high school in 1961 and gone right to work in the graphics industry. Youth always tends to liberal idealism, and I was no exception. I stood and swayed in a crowd of Blacks somewhere on the Mall in August, 1963, having ridden a church bus down from Baltimore. Due to multiple echoes and the interference among the speaker poles, it was almost impossible to understand a lot of King's speech; I listened enrapt to it later. But it didn't matter; never before had I been so close for so long to so many Blacks and I learned many tiny lessons in life and living in those few hours. It was eye-opening for a honky living amidst terrorized neighbors in a "changing" neighborhood. Among other things, I learned that the Blacks seeking to move in were as terror-stricken as the Whites trying to move out. The only common denominator was that each group was seeking something they felt to be better. Only later did we ever learn that better might have meant staying together rather than permitting ourselves to be repelled like magnetic poles by time-worn legacies of hate and distrust.

That hate and distrust was at the core of much of the student protests that began with the Civil Rights movement, but gradually grew to subsume a wide range of issues including the growing war in Vietnam and the government's duplicity, the stupid double standards that applied to men and women, the outworn notions of prudery that fronted for gross hypocrisy among adults, and the rigid anti-liberalism we saw at every hand.

The outrageous conduct came later, and it came as a result of having the real concerns of youth ignored and distorted by a media in the pocket of the establishment. Even Eric Hoffer, to his everlasting shame, participated in the campaign to denigrate the efforts of the "youth movement" to have their petitions heard. It became a smarmily managed campaign by media to portray the issues as a "generation gap" and as just a bunch of kids raising a little hell. Nobody even bothered to read the Port Huron proclamation.

Of course, in the midst of all this I was called by Uncle Lew Hershey and elected to voluntarily enlist to have some say in my assignment. It is probably why I am alive to post this today.

When I came back, of course, Vietnam had become the primary focus -- understandable if it were your life and future on the lotto list. Still the media sided with the establishment. Still the demonstrations were portrayed as "violent" when most were not. Campus sit-ins were viewed as trespass instead of an invitation to dialogue, and the demonstrations and groups became ever wilder and more unrestrained as the message they sought to have heard was ignored. Where some semblance of attention might have produced a mutual plane of respect, the establishment response bred nothing but increased radicalism.

View those times as you will; without them, many of the "rights" we take for granted today -- a sometimes, somewhat equality between men and women, for example -- would never have come to pass had those people that the late Jennings Randolph -- Asshole of West Virginia -- described as "braless bubbleheads" not taken to the streets and protested; without them, LBJ would have won another term and the war would likely have gone on even longer than it did under Nixon (indeed, it might have gone as long as A'stan continues). Without those committed and courageous young men and women the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act might never have gotten out of committee. Without their lead, women might still be in the clutches of back-alley abortionists and struggling to manage their own reproductive rights.

Don't pin the blame for your woes on the sixties -- pin them on your own feckless generations for having dropped the ball and sat back on your fat asses and watched the forces of right-wing darkness return like a new age of McCarthyism.

"Send not for whom the bell tolls...

+ the whole enchilada.

[n2ize]

I can see how much he hates that period in history. The demonstrations of that period were not about academic standards but against a very unpopular war in Southeast Asia fought over oil. So much of history. That's a troll version if I've ever seen one.

The demonstrations were not just the war. if they were limited to just the war and just civil rights issues I would have no problem with them. But they were about other things too. Think back to the Columbia riots and similar campus riots of other schools. They were demanding a change in standards. In some cases a lowering of standards and criteria for admissions. In some cases a demand for a "made easy" curriculum and a free handout while washing ones hand of hard work and personal responsibilities.

Flunk out in school... no problem, I really deserved to pass it;s just that "the man" is too old fashioned to recognize my contemporary intellect. he loaded me up with all those boring, irrelevant subjects that I ain't interested in man.

Get addicted to drugs...no problem... hey man, I had no choice... "the man" turned me into a junkie. I'm not responsible for my behavior.

Not happy with society... "hey man, lets just drop out... Don;t bother to work with people to make things better.

I'm not saying that everything about the counterculture movement was bad. Sure, I think they were right in fighting against the Vietnam war. I also think they were right in taking a stand on civil rights, womens rights, gay rights, etc. I also think they had some good ideas in advocating for social programs as well as their realization that the system is not perfect and that social reforms and social services are necessary. Did the government over exaggerate and engage in fear mongering over the counterculture. Yes, indeed they did,. That is why I posted this video. To emphasize the absurd extremes to which the government went to discredit the counterculture and the youth of that time, even to the point of equating them with filth and subversive communism. Heck, I'll even go so far as to say we can use a degree of counterculturism today.

Yes, there were indeed good parts to the countercultural movement. However amidst all the good things there was a plethora of bad things. Namely the of rejection of traditional values, rejection of the hard work ethic and rejection of personal responsibility and decency. That is the part of the counterculture I am railing against. In the aftermath the counterculture did some good. And it also did a lot of bad. Some magnificent elements of our past were destroyed by the counterculture.

[n2ize]

When I came back, of course, Vietnam had become the primary focus -- understandable if it were your life and future on the lotto list. Still the media sided with the establishment. Still the demonstrations were portrayed as "violent" when most were not. Campus sit-ins were viewed as trespass instead of an invitation to dialogue,

They were indeed engaging in tresspass. In many cases the sit ins disrupted not just the administrative activities of the school but disrupted the activities of serious students who came to school to attend class and to learn. What about their rights ? Did these "hippies" ever consider the rights of serious students who actually believed that school was a place to study and learn and do actual work ?


and the demonstrations and groups became ever wilder and more unrestrained as the message they sought to have heard was ignored. Where some semblance of attention might have produced a mutual plane of respect, the establishment response bred nothing but increased radicalism.

Perhaps if these "students" spent more time cracking open a book and doing some reading and studying they would have made out better and would have spent less time planning the next sit in or the next love-in or whatever the heck they used to do. There were a few leftover remnants of the 60's still hanging round the campuses when I went to school. Funny, I never saw a single one of them ever carrying a book much less opening and reading one. I never say any of them going to or coming from a class. The only place I ever saw them was hanging around in or outside the lunch room or smoking pot behind the campus center.. Guess they got an A+ in "lunch room" an A+ in "weed smoking" and an F in everything else.,

By the time I attended college most of the campus unrest of the 60's and 70's was over. And even if it wasn't, I had no time for it. About the only thing I had time for when i was in school was to attend class and study. The very few times we had to meet with the administration to discuss a concern, issue, or grievance the administration met with us, listened to what we had to say and addressed the concern as best they could.


Don't pin the blame for your woes on the sixties -- pin them on your own feckless generations for having dropped the ball and sat back on your fat asses and watched the forces of right-wing darkness return like a new age of McCarthyism.

I'm not blaming my woes on them. i am taking responsibility for myself. I didn;t engage in sit in's and love-ins in school I went to class and did my work. By the time I moved onto graduate school I was already doing some teaching and coaching other students..I'm not saying that everything that happened in the 60's and 70's was bad. Some of it was real good stuff. But a lot of it was also irresponsible and disregarding of others. The counterculture of the 60's and 70's had good merits. But it was not the shining star of greatness that some make it out to be.

[W3MIV]

Bullshit, John; again, you don't know what you're talking about. The Columbia University "riots" took place in 1968, when the result of the discoveries of Columbia's collusion with the RAND Corporation and the Pentagon to aid and abet the war, and also the result of the culmination of earlier protests against the University's clearly discriminatory policies with regard to a gymnasium at Morningside Heights that the Black community had been demonstrating against for years.

Lots of demonstrations that took place in 1968 and 1969 -- including the police riots in Chicago and the Wall Street construction workers' assault on demonstrators with pipes wrapped in flags -- were the result of the establishment's continued refusal to heed the students and other protestors' petitions but to relegate them to the status of mere unruly adolescents, just as your foolish posts are now doing here. All of this would lead up to the killings in May of 1970 when the "violence" reached its zenith -- at the hands of the government, not of the students.

Give it up. You are posting rubbish.

[KG4CGC]

"the man" turned me into a junkie. There's some truth to that actually. Bush (H.W.) needed money for the CIA but congress turned him down. So, he did what any resourceful boss would do and sold weapons to our enemies. The enemies didn't have any cash so they paid in heroin. Heroin which was then let loose all over the cities of America.

[n2ize]

Bullshit, John; again, you don't know what you're talking about. The Columbia University "riots" took place in 1968, when the result of the discoveries of Columbia's collusion with the RAND Corporation and the Pentagon to aid and abet the war, and also the result of the culmination of earlier protests against the University's clearly discriminatory policies with regard to a gymnasium at Morningside Heights that the Black community had been demonstrating against for years.

Lots of demonstrations that took place in 1968 and 1969 -- including the police riots in Chicago and the Wall Street construction workers' assault on demonstrators with pipes wrapped in flags -- were the result of the establishment's continued refusal to heed the students and other protestors' petitions but to relegate them to the status of mere unruly adolescents, just as your foolish posts are now doing here. All of this would lead up to the killings in May of 1970 when the "violence" reached its zenith -- at the hands of the government, not of the students.

Give it up. You are posting rubbish.

You're starting to sound like my folks. :) Next to my brother I am probably the second most conservative member of my immediate family. But, I am still not ready for Sarah, Mccain or the Teabag Party ...Hi Hi.

What about the ROTC building that the students set fire to and burned down ? Was that showing respect for other students ? What about students who were in the ROTC program who lost the facility because a handful of students decided to take it upon themselves to "stir things up to get attention". Protesting, voiding your concerns, speaking out are all fine and are in the spirit of what this country was founded upon. I have no problem with that. What is wrong is destroying property, arson, putting lives at risk, and engaging in civil disobedience that disrespects the rights of others. Want to protest on campus ? Fine. By al means go ahead. But don't do it in such a way that you deny other students who have come there to learn.

What was equally wrong and far worst was the reaction of the National Guard. Thoise students did not deserve to be shot at. And the attitudes of Nixon and Agnew in the aftermath of the shooting was appalling an disgraceful. I don;t care how vehemently anyone might have disagreed with them or even hated their message. Shooting them was just plain wrong. No 2 ways about it.

What was also wrong was the construction workers beating the young people and the cops standing by and letting it happen. That was terribly wrong. Believe me, i used to get angry and disgusted when I saw on TV how the demonstrators were geting their heads busted and their faces beaten by the cops. Heck, there was even a young girl (about 18 years old) from around my neighborhood who was bludgeoned by some Neanderthal who didn;t like the idea that she was protesting against the Vietnam war. I thought that was aweful.

2 wrongs don't make a right. And while don;t approve of some of the things the protesters did I don't support brutality against them either.

[n2ize]

There's some truth to that actually. Bush (H.W.) needed money for the CIA but congress turned him down. So, he did what any resourceful boss would do and sold weapons to our enemies. The enemies didn't have any cash so they paid in heroin. Heroin which was then let loose all over the cities of America.

I'll go a step further. The drug war has probably done more to promote drug use and has made it more difficult for doctors to help patients deal with addictions or prescribe the drugs they need to deal with it.

[NQ6U]

You're wasting your time, Albi. John's nothing more than a troll. Take a look at his posts—he picks whatever side he thinks will develop an argument. Most of the time I think it's funny but sometimes it becomes a little much.

[W3MIV]

You circle round and round yet inevitably keep missing the point, John: The demonstrators, frustrated by the stone-walling and over-reactions of the authorities escalated their protests to emphasize their seriousness and their tenacity. At any time the "authorities" could have halted the growing excesses by treating with the representatives of the groups. The Chicago police riots, as one example, were the result of demonstrations held after the yippies and others were denied any permission to make their voices heard.

Here is a Wikipedia comment:


In 1967, the Yippie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yippie) movement had already begun planning a youth festival in Chicago to coincide with the Democratic National Convention. They were not alone; other groups, such as Students For a Democratic Society and the National Mobilization Committee to End the War in Vietnam, also made their presence known.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention#cite_note-9) When asked about anti-war demonstrators, Daley kept repeating to reporters that “No thousands will come to our city and take over our streets, or city, our convention.”[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention#cite_note-10) In the end, 10,000 demonstrators gathered in Chicago for the convention where they were met by 23,000 police and National Guardsmen.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention#cite_note-Jennings_.26_Brewster_1998:_413-11) Daley also thought that one way to prevent demonstrators from coming to Chicago was to refuse to grant permits which would allow for people to protest legally.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention#cite_note-Gitlin_1987:_319-12)

The key to preventing violence was dialogue, but that was the last thing the establishment wanted because they would then have been required to publicly defend the indefensible.

It is very frustrating now to read posts in which you merely vomit up the same horseshit that was being put out on the national media to move the protestors out of the realm of legitimate discourse into an outer boundary from which only their more outrageous actions would be publicized, thus turning a fickle public against them. Your blather demonstrates the success of the program.

[n2ize]

It is very frustrating now to read posts in which you merely vomit up the same horseshit that was being put out on the national media to move the protestors out of the realm of legitimate discourse into an outer boundary from which only their more outrageous actions would be publicized, thus turning a fickle public against them. Your blather demonstrates the success of the program.

I don;;t disagree with you entirely. as I said, the "establisment" was often wrong too. Why do you think I posted a link to that Fairbanks film strip ? Because the film strip shows the great lengths the "establishment" went to discredit and dismiss what were often valid concerns. I am sure the 'establisment" could have prevented a lot of the turbulent unrest and tensions of that time by taking a better approach and showing more respect to those who were speaking out. I don't deny that part of it at all. I just feel the other side could have been more respectful and responsible. Not everone who identified with the counterculture was exactly a stellar model of a person who wants to right societies wrongs. Many wer selfish, greedy, and looking for an easy way out. Both sides had their flaws. But, I do agree with you. the "establisment" side could have done better.

[n2ize]

From the comments on that page:


You have to keep perspective when you watch this ephemera propaganda film. It was during a time when there was a lot of activism, i.e anti Vietnam war, civil rights, womens' rights, etc. During that time there was an exaggerated fear among established society that somehow such movements would corrupt young America and destroy the fabric of the nation and, that it was somehow linked to communism. To a moderate degree this film also perpetrates the notion that somehow free speech is... un-American.

In retrospect we now see the absurdity of the exaggerated fears expressed in this propaganda film and others like it. This does add a touch of comic element to the film. Watch it bearing in mind the time it was made and the mindset of the period.

I think that puts it pretty well.

I know. I wrote it.

[W3MIV]

Ah, the damning by faint praise...

[n2ize]

Let's also recall that one of the things the "students" were opposed to in the Columbia riots was the construction of an engineering building. I guess engineering was not favoured by the radical crowd who preferred subjects like sociology, sit-ins, how to interrupt the activities of students who want to learn, pot smoking, and lunch room and other made easy courses.. Engineering was way too hard. besides, engineers are all conservative , establishment types who end up working for "the man".

On the other side of the coin "the man" didn't help by keeping a corrupt war and a draft going on, trying to suppress the call for equal rights, and, closing their eyes and giving the green light to brutalize many of those kids.

One thing is strange. In those days Nixon and Agnew were considered a part of the conservative establishment and being liberal sort of indicated one whho wants to overthrow, or at least dramatically change the old school conservative world. Nowadays, Nixon and Agnew are considered liberals, and not just minor liberals. By todays standards Nixon and Agnew are far left liberals.

[W3MIV]

Anyone who could consider Spiro Agnew a liberal is either an idiot or a damned fool. I knew Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew was NOT a liberal. Both Agnew and Nixon WERE crooks.

And, John, despite your distorted views of things you barely understand, I can only say I wish those unruly bastards were in the streets today. The current generation is a worthless herd of sheep.

[n2ize]

Anyone who could consider Spiro Agnew a liberal is either an idiot or a damned fool. I knew Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew was NOT a liberal. Both Agnew and Nixon WERE crooks.

They weren't liberals. But some conservatives have shifted the goal posts so far over to the extreme right that what was considered far right decades ago is not considered left wing liberal. I think I have even heard some teabaggers refer to Nixon and Agnew as "liberal".



And, John, despite your distorted views of things you barely understand, I can only say I wish those unruly bastards were in the streets today.


I don;t think my views are distorted at al. I think I am recognizing the good and the bad. was the counterculture all bad ? Hell no. Some good things came out of the counterculture. Changes in certain attitudes, social reforms, amongst other things, as well as an increased awareness that government and elected leaders should not be trusted blindly. But, I also recognize that the counterculture produced some bad things too.



The current generation is a worthless herd of sheep.

And which generation is that. You criticize me for pointing out some of the negative aspects of the counterculture and then you go on and declare that the current generation is worthless ? I don;t think that is true. There are a lot of very wonderful young people out there. Many of them are bright, becoming well educated and will be the ones who will invent new things, cure diseases, and carry this nation and this world forward. I both meet and work with some wonderful young people. They have a good sense of decency and morals, they are concerned about social and political issues, they respect the elder generation, they are open minded, and, in some ways they areoptimistic and ready to work hard to make things better. To write them off as "worthless" would be a terrible disservice.

[WØTKX]

Here's the epic failure on your stated views John.

The so called "establishment" marginalized the youths and others who did not agree. They had damn good reason to be upset. Peaceful protest such as sit-ins were met with ridicule that escalated to hatred and violence. The "establishment" had all the power, and met resistance with force. All this did was escalate things to the point of vandalism and the use of force by the protesters... and while they were not right in the way things were handled what really mattered was, in most cases, they were not armed, and could not protect themselves.

Peaceful protest that are met with violence causes great harm, and when it escalates... leaders of peaceful protests get hurt or killed, such as civil rights activists. MLK was assassinated because evil people thought they could get away with it, as they passionately believed that they were on the "right side". This is not false equivalence, its part of the same thing.

When those in power use force on a small scale, it's abuse at best. On a larger scale it's fascism.

Your posts in this thread make as much sense as those who suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. I sure hope it's an epic troll, because if you really believe what you have posted... I can't respect this. Gives permission to the narcissists in any power struggle, as if appeasing those in power J Justified in the false hope that evil mean nasty people will forgive and be nice.

Might makes right. It's all about they "winning". After a point, that's psychotic.

And don't even mention "the moral majority". In a "pure democracy" there are no rights for the individual, just the tyranny of the majority, so you'd better go along with the crowd, OR ELSE.

:wall:


P.S.

Albert, you are RIGHT ON regarding troubling things about Eric Hoffer. I am a fan of his writing, but some things are as bad as Ayn Rand and Ron Paul. And I have voted for Ron, because he understands whats wrong with the Fed better than Bernanke ever will.

Hoffer tread the line with racism as well. While correct about many things, the failure is in the splitting behavior exhibited there... even the great "Republican" hero Abe Lincoln had issues with blacks "possibly" being inferior. Uh, no, we all came from Africa, Duh?

Mark Twain was a better humanist than Hoffer. The Yin of objectivism without the Yang of humanism is not a solution at all.

But I'm just a librul loon, dancing on the rough water... as my current avatar shows. ;)

[n2ize]

Here's the epic failure on your stated views John.

The so called "establishment" marginalized the youths and others who did not agree. They had damn good reason to be upset. Peaceful protest such as sit-ins were met with ridicule that escalated to hatred and violence. The "establishment" had all the power, and met resistance with force. All this did was escalate things to the point of vandalism and the use of force by the protesters... and while they were not right in the way things were handled what really mattered was, in most cases, they were not armed, and could not protect themselves.

I agree, the "establishment" should have handled things different. At the same time I take issue with the whole idea of staging "sit-ins". A "sit-in" is a form of tresspassing. It also disrupts the functions of a place of learning. For every student that chose to join a sit-in there were many more that chose to use the school as a place for learning. By engaging in sit-ins they are denying other students the ability to learn and use the school for what they paid for,

That said I will agree, The powers that be could have been more diplomatic in diffusing these demonstrations.



Peaceful protest that are met with violence causes great harm, and when it escalates... leaders of peaceful protests get hurt or killed, such as civil rights activists. MLK was assassinated because evil people thought they could get away with it, as they passionately believed that they were on the "right side". This is not false equivalence, its part of the same thing.

When those in power use force on a small scale, it's abuse at best. On a larger scale it's fascism.

Your posts in this thread make as much sense as those who suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. I sure hope it's an epic troll, because if you really believe what you have posted... I can't respect this. Gives permission to the narcissists in any power struggle, as if appeasing those in power J Justified in the false hope that evil mean nasty people will forgive and be nice.

Might makes right. It's all about they "winning". After a point, that's psychotic.



I see it differently. These so called "students" who were protesting were a small but very vocal minority who often had little respect for others. It was all about "Me" and everyone else who didn;t partake in their escapades was a "square" or "part of the problem:". While I do condone the removal of tresspassers who are blocking the function of a school I certainly don't condone the Kent State shootings. That was an example of the powers that be taking things way too far. However, i also don;t condone the students burning down of the ROTC building. that is destruction of property, endangering lives, and complete disrespect for other students who made use of that facility and the ROTC program. At the same time I also don;t condone the rough handling of protests by police, particularly the routine headbusts or, looking the other way as construction workers bludgeoned protesters.

To sum it up I would say that the protesters were wrong in many ways. But so was the establishment. Both sides could have been more tactful, respectful and diplomatic.

[WØTKX]

I didn't like things that disrupted my classes either John. But I tried to understand why. I was lucky enough to go to a high school with mostly excellent teachers. They used the turmoil in real life to teach, and some of then did not deflect or lie about reality.

Was pretty isolated in my college town of choice after that... Bozeman MT.

I did graduate HS in 74, the war was almost over... Martin, Bobby, and John were already dead. And Nixon tried to be an American King. It was appalling and many caring adults and teachers understood by then. But MN was quite liberal in those days, and not the nest of batshit crazy Bachmann, or Pawlenty the Pawn.

At least Wellstone was around for a while, and Franken got elected.

[n2ize]

It still doesn't change the fact that there is a right way to do things and a wrong way. this applies to "the protesters" and "the powers that be". Trespassing, being disruptive, and denying others is not the right way. Neither is bursting heads or shooting at people. Unfortunately the late 60's and early 70's was a time of more wrongs than rights. I am gllad to hear the teachers made the best out of a tough situation.

[W3MIV]

But I'm just a librul loon, dancing on the rough water... as my current avatar shows. ;)

May your tribe increase, Brother Dave. Humans became human by progressing from homo knucklepedenis to homo sapiens. Why would anyone want to go the other way? History is a forward process, for good or ill, and it is our duty and task to make it a positive process. One cannot do that by hankering for the past. The finger writes and passes on.

Hoffer was human. A product of his times, as are we all. We each have our own feet of clay, and we must work to find the pearls among the pebbles. Despite his flaws, plenty of pearls in Hoffer.

[W1GUH]

Yes, COINTELPRO did, but what I meant was that their primary target—the social activists and anti-war movement—was winding down by 1972. The culprit was disco, I think. Not the music itself, but the self-absorbed hedonism of the Seventies it represented.

They killed Jimi, they killed Janis, they killed Jim, later they killed John. The media quit covering the good work done by the patriots who were fighting to keep the Constitution a living, working document. They flooded the streets with cocaine -- that feel good drug under whose influence nobody gives a shit about anything besides themselves. The took over the relevant, responsible local radio stations and turned them into corporate money machines.

The real pisser is....if they would have just come out to rallies and meetings and met the people involved instead of infiltrating the counter-culture with spies they would have learned that that there was nothing to fear at all, unless one had a vested interest in subverting the Constitution. Guess that's the rub -- they couldn't possibly stand the sight of real patriots standing up for what the US was supposed to stand for.

[W1GUH]

Anyone who could consider Spiro Agnew a liberal is either an idiot or a damned fool. I knew Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew was NOT a liberal. Both Agnew and Nixon WERE crooks.

And, John, despite your distorted views of things you barely understand, I can only say I wish those unruly bastards were in the streets today. The current generation is a worthless herd of sheep.

"...current generation is a worthless herd of sheep."

You haven't met the right ones. They hardly ever surface in the media, what with censorship and all, but they are there. And unlike you, who ducks under his spook blanket when pressed for hard information, I can offer you specific and good information about how to find the right people who ARE very commited, very intelligent, and very aware of the awful shit going on.

Speaking of you spookness; you've been hitting that schtick pretty hard lately. You spying on us?

Bet your reply contains abundant plausible deniability.

[W3MIV]

You spying on us?

Merely calling attention to the possibilities. Probabilities, really. You are being spied on continuously.

I disagree about the values of any present generations, however. Now that none of them -- or their progeny -- are in any danger of being snatched from the fuzzy warmth of the nest and being sent into the maw unasked and unlamented, it has all become bierstube bravado. Let some patriot, indentured by the bindings of educational funding, imprinted by the establishment brainwashing of the drones, go and get his or her ass shot off. Read about it in the paper and offer a few obligatory "tsk, tsks" and flip to the stock pages to see what Exxon or GE is selling for.

So long as they can range about the barnyard scratching and pecking at the occasional oat the system leaves behind it, they are content to merely let off steam over a bit of chardonnay and a bite of brie. Their thirty pieces of silver are their reward.

Were there genuine horror at what is being done by our forces around the world, there would be people in the streets. The only people in the streets are union laborers faced with battles that are part and parcel of the divide-and-conquer tactics now being put to excellent use by the moneyed elite.

[W1GUH]

Merely calling attention to the possibilities. Probabilities, really. You are being spied on continuously.

I disagree about the values of any present generations, however. Now that none of them -- or their progeny -- are in any danger of being snatched from the fuzzy warmth of the nest and being sent into the maw unasked and unlamented, it has all become bierstube bravado. Let some patriot, indentured by the bindings of educational funding, imprinted by the establishment brainwashing of the drones, go and get his or her ass shot off. Read about it in the paper and offer a few obligatory "tsk, tsks" and flip to the stock pages to see what Exxon or GE is selling for.

So long as they can range about the barnyard scratching and pecking at the occasional oat the system leaves behind it, they are content to merely let off steam over a bit of chardonnay and a bite of brie. Their thirty pieces of silver are their reward.

Were there genuine horror at what is being done by our forces around the world, there would be people in the streets. The only people in the streets are union laborers faced with battles that are part and parcel of the divide-and-conquer tactics now being put to excellent use by the moneyed elite.

Notice that lack of any hard information there. Notice that it's pretty much creative writing (and very creative and skillful at that) that doesn't really address any of the points he's replying to. Can you say plausible deniability?

"I disagree about the values of any present generations, however. "

Again...I can give you hard information as to how to find those of present and past generations that you don't seem to believe exists. Just ask. You will need no invitation, mentor, escort, or letter of introduction to meet them -- all you need do is just show up. They will welcome you with open arms. They are not exclusive and welcome all.

However, if you are uneasy about approaching a group of strangers, some of whom may look, on the surface, to be really wierd types, I will be more than happy to accompany you.

There are no secrets about this. It's public, legal, and open to all, regardless of race, color, creed, national origion, sexual orientation, background, or political leanings. You will find youself participating in very stimulating and respectful conversations and debates with other intelligent people who really want to make this nation a better place -- what we were taught that it's supposed to be.

There you have it. It's all there for the exploration. If there's anything that I've said that appears ambiguous, I apologize profusely about that, it's only because I haven't awesome wordsmithing skills, and I invite questions that will clear up any ambiguity I may have inadvertently written.

Peace, brothers and sisters.

[NQ6U]

I think you're reading a bit too much into Albi's posts.

The truth is simple, and I've heard this from other people I've known who worked in military intelligence and related fields: Albi was required to sign documents stating that he would never speak of what he learned while working as a spook. Ever. Period, no exceptions. Now, the chances of anyone coming after him for talking about info that's already public may be small but it's not zero and the potential penalties are not trivial, so it's prudent for Albi to keep his mouth shut about it.

[W1GUH]

Well taken....and it's "plausible" that sometimes his creative, inderect prose is simply his personal style. Note one of the operational words there. But he IS violating one of the guidelines about working with classified info...that is,

Don't advertise that you do. That makes you a target...and that's not anything to be desired.

[n2ize]

They killed Jimi, they killed Janis, they killed Jim, later they killed John.

Huh ?? "The man" was responsible for this ?? I don;t think so.



When media quit covering the good work done by the patriots who were fighting to keep the Constitution a living, working document. They flooded the streets with cocaine -- that feel good drug under whose influence nobody gives a shit about anything besides themselves. The took over the relevant, responsible local radio stations and turned them into corporate money machines.

Blame "the man" for everything. Cocaine is no worst than alcohol heroin, pills, marijuana, etc. if you are going to use any of these things habitually as an escape from the world. There is a point where personal responsibility has to kick in, We are what we make of ourselves. Its like a friend I spoke to the other day who was complaining "4 years of college and there are no jobs" Huh ?? But when i asked him if he took advantage of any of the placement programs at the college he attended or how rigorously he searched a career in his field of study he drew blank stares. Iif you don;t take personal responsibility and try then how can you blame "the man" for not giving you a job.



The real pisser is....if they would have just come out to rallies and meetings and met the people involved instead of infiltrating the counter-culture with spies they would have learned that that there was nothing to fear at all, unless one had a vested interest in subverting the Constitution. Guess that's the rub -- they couldn't possibly stand the sight of real patriots standing up for what the US was supposed to stand for.

the counter culture were not "real patriots". While there were some noble causes amonst the counterculture and some good things to come from those times there was also a lot of selfishness, self-righteousness, disrespect and disregard for others. Amongst the counterculture there was often an attitude of "It's about what I want" as opposed to "what's best for all". There were also many who went along for the ride hoping it would carve them an easy way through life. It was a time when the idea of politeness, respect, and hard work went out the window. I agree that "the man" should have been more tactful in his relations with the counterculture instead of marginalizing, belittling, and engaging violently. Both sides could have done better.

[n2ize]

Let's consider the impact of a random protest on a college campus or on a busy city street. A group of people decide they don;t like a certain policy. They may only represent a small minority but they don;t like a particular policy or ordinance. So, instead of going through the proper channels and getting permission to hold a peaceful demonstration or a permit they simply walk into an administration building, classroom building, library, etc. Immediately it interferes with proper operation of the campus. But what effect does it have on fellow students who are trying to attend class, study for exams, work on a research paper, etc. It disrupts them and greatly detracts from the learning experience that they paid for. If I am doing research, working on a paper, studying for an exam, etc. why must my rights be taken from me by a group of rabble rouser's who are only thinking of themselves and what they want. What about me and what I want. What about the rest of the students, faculty, etc. What gives them the right to protest and disrupt the school as opposed to going through the correct channels.

Ditto for blocking a street or part of a city with a random protest that catches the police and public off guard ? Did the protesters think of the consequences ? What about people who cannot get into work or are delayed ? What about emergency vehicles, police, fire, ambulances that cannot proceed ? What happens when someone dies because they could not get to a hospital in time because the street is blocked by an unscheduled demonstration ? What happens when firemen can't get to the scene of a fire in time to prevent loss of life and extensive property damage because they were blocked by rabble ?

There is good reason why police, administrators of colleges, etc require permits and planning BEFORE a demonstration gets underway. It is to assure that the people have a right to speak out without jeopardizing the loves of others and without jeopardizing their own lives. the problem in the sixties and early seventies was that many protesters didn't think of others. They thought only of themselves and what they want. In all likelihood when we saw police arresting demonstrators it wasn't because they hated or had bitter contempt for the protesters or their message. It was simply that they had to restore order as quickly as possible to assure the overall safety of the public. The streets belong to EVERYBODY. Not just to a handful of people who decide they have to send a message. The University belongs to EVERYBODY who works their and/or pays tuition to attend and study there. It is a place of learning, a place to apply ones mind and learn and become efficient through hard work, dedication, and intensive study. It is not the venue for spur of the moment demonstrations which detract from the purpose of the school and deprive other students of a learning experience. Speaking out does not mean anything goes and that it is okay to disrespect the rights of others.

[NQ6U]

Give it up, John. Your argument is bankrupt and nobody really gives damn anyhow.

[n2ize]

Give it up, John. Your argument is bankrupt and nobody really gives damn anyhow.

What is bankrupt about doing things the right way ? Just because some hippie decides he wants to protest x, y and z doesn't mean he should interrupt peoples education to do so, Nor does it mean he has to disrupt traffic and put others into jeopardy. He can go and get a permit to hold a peaceful demonstration legally, without trespassing. Just like everyone else does. I am not saying people shouldn't have the right to be activists and engage in protests. All I am saying is do it properly and legally out of respect for others.

[n2ize]

Let me just add that I think that speaking our and protesting is one of our most wonderful and cherished rights. I think it is great to see people speaking out and protesting, even if I disagree with their message. Try speaking out in China, in Iran, Burma, Cuba, etc and you'll be toast. Thank God that we can protest and voice our concerns or our desires and calls for change. However, the right to protest doesn't mean anything goes, just as free speech doesn't mean shout fire in a crowded theatre. If you are going to protest in public there is a right way and a wrong way. Going through the proper channels, getting a proper permit, and letting the police know ahead of time so they can work around the protest is the right way, the way that assures safety and minimal risk to protesters and non-protesters alike. Taking over an intersection and shutting down part of a town or city, is the wrong way. taking over a college campus and violating the rights of others is the wrong way. destroying , wrecking, smashing, and burning property is the wrong way. It also makes the protesters appear like criminals and undermines the effectiveness and validity of the protest. Thats why it is important to do things the right way.

[WØTKX]

Egypt, anyone?

I doubt very much that the Moral Majority would have given permits for demonstrations. Stalling was a standard tactic. And if anybody really cares, you could probably look it up, I bet Albert might have some insight into that.

However, maybe I'll go to a Republican town meeting soon, and shout LIAR!

Peacful disruptions, while annoying, matter. If things were OK, there would be no need.

[N2NH]

Ah, the damning by faint praise...

Gawd! (awe!) :snicker:

[W3MIV]

I am too far past my prime to be a target of anyone, for I know the limits and the risks -- to both sides of the issue -- of being hauled up short for unauthorized disclosures. I have posted nothing to warrant worry on my end; it is easy to read too much into a post when there is an idea that the reader would would wish to infer.

Things that were done in my time are still being done, for the most part, though who is now doing them has changed to a very great extent. Those things which I did that are no longer being done were not discontinued because of civil rights or a concern for morality, but because they were not so effective as those who now do such things desired them to be.

As for my criticisms of current generations, show me the people in the streets. Other than union members seeking justice in a very narrow frame, there are none. Nobody among the current porridge that passes for citizenry in this increasingly corrupt nation gives a shit for anything beyond narrow, personal gain. They are so tightly focused on their own booty they probably don't even know the names of people who live two or three doors away.

Again, "send not for whom the bell tolls."

[N2NH]

What's right about America?


Roller Derby, Demolition Derby and Kirward Derby.

[n2ize]

As for my criticisms of current generations, show me the people in the streets. Other than union members seeking justice in a very narrow frame, there are none. Nobody among the current porridge that passes for citizenry in this increasingly corrupt nation gives a shit for anything beyond narrow, personal gain. They are so tightly focused on their own booty they probably don't even know the names of people who live two or three doors away.


So, since when do we judge an entire generation on based onthe fact that they don't trespass and take over college campuses and deny other students their right to learn or, since when do we gauge a generation based on the fact that they don;t break the law and block intersections and streets and endanger lives ? What about the contributions this present generation will make in other ways ? Who knows, this might be the generation that finds a cure for cancer, or for one or more serious diseases. This may be the generation that discovers and contributes new products, new ideas, new frontiers in science, technology, mathematics, art, music, litterature, social science;. Just because a generation isn't filled with rabble-rousers demonstrating in the streets and schools at every single turn, burning down ROTC buildings, and forcing others to comply with what they want, does not mean that this is aa bad generation. Perhaps they prefer to engage in political discourse in a manner that is more diplomatic. Or by getting involved in the process itself.