Vatican library

[W5GA]

This would be tour well worth the effort is you could take it. I could stay lost in a place like this.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/08/60minutes/main20052140.shtml?tag=stack

[NQ6U]

Dad-gum Catholics have way too much money. They need to sell some of those gee-gaws and use the money to make more like Jesus. Take better care of the poor, Pope Aldoph.

(Disclaimer: I was baptized as a Roman Catholic.)

[N2NH]

I remember meeting a nun whose brother was a priest working on cataloging the Vatican Archive. It was begun in the late 1940s when they realized they had no idea of how much or what they owned. There are some real interesting books on prophesies there and when found, many were surprised to find out that many had already come true. Some of the prophesies were over 1,500 years old and very accurate.

[n2ize]

I remember meeting a nun whose brother was a priest working on cataloging the Vatican Archive. It was begun in the late 1940s when they realized they had no idea of how much or what they owned. There are some real interesting books on prophesies there and when found, many were surprised to find out that many had already come true. Some of the prophesies were over 1,500 years old and very accurate.

Like that say. If you make a million prophecies the laws of probability say that some of them will come true. It's like the prophecies of Nostradamus. People swear that this guy knew the future. But when you take a looking glass to it you find it's part normal odds and part misinterpretation.

[KC2UGV]

"'Decorated with real gold,' he pointed out, while showing Safer the magnificently ornate pages."

I wonder how many people that could feed, if sold... Well, no bother. Religion is merely a way to control, not provide for humanity.

[W3MIV]

"'Decorated with real gold,' he pointed out, while showing Safer the magnificently ornate pages."

I wonder how many people that could feed, if sold... Well, no bother. Religion is merely a way to control, not provide for humanity.

Foolish and puerile trolling. Would you sell the Mona Lisa to feed anyone?

[KC2UGV]

Foolish and puerile trolling. Would you sell the Mona Lisa to feed anyone?

Yes.

Is a painting worth keeping a single person alive? You betcha. Would you sell a TS-9000 to buy food for a year; if you were starving?

Not to mention, the Mona Lisa is a single painting. One of a kind. There are several hundred bibles, written in the same period, decorated in the same manner.

Also, you neglect what the purported "purpose" of a religious group is, especially a "christian" one: Take care of the sick an infirm. To take a quote from their own "rule book":

"And when Jesus heard it, he said to him, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. But when he heard this he became sad, for he was very rich." (Luke 18:22,23)

I don't find anywhere in their "rule book" a mandate, or even a suggestion to collect antiquities.

[W3MIV]

What you don't know about art would fill an encyclopaedia.


Yes.

Is a painting worth keeping a single person alive? You betcha. Would you sell a TS-9000 to buy food for a year; if you were starving?

Not to mention, the Mona Lisa is a single painting. One of a kind. There are several hundred bibles, written in the same period, decorated in the same manner.

Also, you neglect what the purported "purpose" of a religious group is, especially a "christian" one: Take care of the sick an infirm. To take a quote from their own "rule book":

"And when Jesus heard it, he said to him, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. But when he heard this he became sad, for he was very rich." (Luke 18:22,23)

I don't find anywhere in their "rule book" a mandate, or even a suggestion to collect antiquities.

[W3WN]

Dad-gum Catholics have way too much money. They need to sell some of those gee-gaws and use the money to make more like Jesus. Take better care of the poor, Pope Aldoph.

(Disclaimer: I was baptized as a Roman Catholic.)Wasn't there a movie about that a couple of generations ago? IIRC, some priest or bishop or cardinal or something, who had been imprisoned by the Communists; upon his release he ends up getting elected as the next Pope, and shortly thereafter, there is a Major Disaster suffered by the Chinese, so in true Hollywood pseudo-irony. he proposes to sell off the church's worldly possessions to pay for the disaster and save them there people.

Or something like that.

On Edit: I believe the movie I'm thinking of is The Shoes of the Fisherman (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063599/)

[W3WN]

Like that say. If you make a million prophecies the laws of probability say that some of them will come true. It's like the prophecies of Nostradamus. People swear that this guy knew the future. But when you take a looking glass to it you find it's part normal odds and part misinterpretation.Nostradamus was many things, although not everything that others claimed he was. But one thing he wasn't... he was no dummy.

Those prophecies of his, if you can find and read the original (or an accurate translation), are phrased just vaguely enough as to apply to many things. (And some people do just that.)

That's not a complaint. After all, if he had prophesized in such a way as to tick off the King, it might have cost him his neck.

[W3WN]

What you don't know about art would fill an encyclopaedia.
Two things immediately sprang to mind...
Edward Lewis (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000152/): People's reactions to opera the first time they see it is very dramatic; they either love it or they hate it. If they love it, they will always love it. If they don't, they may learn to appreciate it, but it will never become part of their soul.

Lex Luthor (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000432/): Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

[KC2UGV]

What you don't know about art would fill an encyclopaedia.


Two things immediately sprang to mind...

And neither of those change the fact, that the purported purpose of a Catholic church is to provide for the infirm and poor, while also meeting the evangelical mission of the church. Nothing about collecting antiquities in there.

So, either you are ignoring the point; or supporting the misleading notion that somehow, collecting these items (Like ancient coinage) somehow takes care of the infirm, or spread the "gospel".

It's the very same reason religious groups get subsidized by your and my tax dollars do nothing to promote humanity, and do everything in their power to control people.

[KG4CGC]

"'Decorated with real gold,' he pointed out, while showing Safer the magnificently ornate pages."

I wonder how many people that could feed, if sold... Well, no bother. Religion is merely a way to control, not provide for humanity.
Yep, well, God hates poor people. Otherwise they wouldn't be poor.

[W3WN]

And neither of those change the fact, that the purported purpose of a Catholic church is to provide for the infirm and poor, while also meeting the evangelical mission of the church. Nothing about collecting antiquities in there.

So, either you are ignoring the point; or supporting the misleading notion that somehow, collecting these items (Like ancient coinage) somehow takes care of the infirm, or spread the "gospel".

It's the very same reason religious groups get subsidized by your and my tax dollars do nothing to promote humanity, and do everything in their power to control people.Now hold on a sec there, Cor.

My only point was to illustrate, with a little humor, that not everyone appreciates everything in the same way. THAT in relation to Albie's comment about what you may or may not know about art. Don't read more into it than what's there.

I have my own thoughts on what property a religious organization should own or possess, and under what circumstances. I simply do not wish to discuss them at present.

[KC2UGV]

Now hold on a sec there, Cor.

My only point was to illustrate, with a little humor, that not everyone appreciates everything in the same way. THAT in relation to Albie's comment about what you may or may not know about art. Don't read more into it than what's there.


Point taken.



I have my own thoughts on what property a religious organization should own or possess, and under what circumstances. I simply do not wish to discuss them at present.

I have no qualms about any organization owning any property they like. But when a group has amassed (literally) an enormous fortune of "treasure", but yet still takes my money to support themselves, I then take issue with it.

I can not fathom why the largest real estate owner in the world needs a tax free ride here in the US.

[W3MIV]

Yep, well, God hates poor people. Otherwise they wouldn't be poor.

Ahhh. A presbyterian, no doubt.

[KC2UGV]

Ahhh. A presbyterian, no doubt.

Apparently, the Roman Catholic church as well... Sitting on enormous fortunes, yet still mandating money for "prayer candles", pew reservations, prayers, funerals, marriages, etc.

And, amazingly, offer ZERO social benefit.

[W5GA]

And, amazingly, offer ZERO social benefit.
I'd imagine that Mother Theresa would have argued that point.

[W3WN]

< snip >
I have my own thoughts on what property a religious organization should own or possess, and under what circumstances. I simply do not wish to discuss them at present.< snip >
I have no qualms about any organization owning any property they like. But when a group has amassed (literally) an enormous fortune of "treasure", but yet still takes my money to support themselves, I then take issue with it.

I can not fathom why the largest real estate owner in the world needs a tax free ride here in the US.Well, I will grant you this much...

On those few occasions where I get dragged to church (that's what I get for marrying a shiksa... you think I would have learned after the first time), I always have to wonder when they send the collection plate(s) around -- twice. OK, one offering is usually for a specific event, usually charitable. One would hope that all of the money donated in that basket is allocated for said purpose... but I digress. The other is usually a general "support our church" type.

Yes, I know, the bills have to be paid, the building upkeep maintained, the paid staff paid, and the priests have to eat. Still... one wonders. How can it make sense that the local Parish and the area Diocese are claiming poverty and just scrapping by, yet at the top of the heap, the Vatican has centuries of treasures worth fortunes. Why?

And on that note, I will give the local Bishop credit. When he took office, one of the first things he did was put up for sale the mansion that his predecesors had lived in (for the record, it was donated to the church, they didn't buy it). The money was used to fund programs to help the impoverished. And since then, they've actually opened up a center downtown to help people. So, at least SOME of those in a position of authority really are interested in doing good, not amassing wealth.

[KC2UGV]

I'd imagine that Mother Theresa would have argued that point.

While some good came from Theresa's work, she also did quite a bit of harm in Calcutta... Namely, she aided the spread of STD's and poverty, by advocating NOT using birth control of ANY sort.

[KC2UGV]

Well, I will grant you this much...

On those few occasions where I get dragged to church (that's what I get for marrying a shiksa... you think I would have learned after the first time), I always have to wonder when they send the collection plate(s) around -- twice. OK, one offering is usually for a specific event, usually charitable. One would hope that all of the money donated in that basket is allocated for said purpose... but I digress. The other is usually a general "support our church" type.


And, I'll give the first plate as being for the social good (As long as no strings attached, like using it to fight AGAINST things like birth control), and I'll even go as far as to say that should be a tax break, but...



Yes, I know, the bills have to be paid, the building upkeep maintained, the paid staff paid, and the priests have to eat. Still... one wonders. How can it make sense that the local Parish and the area Diocese are claiming poverty and just scrapping by, yet at the top of the heap, the Vatican has centuries of treasures worth fortunes. Why?


I understand bills must be paid. But, they should shoulder that burden on their own, not digging into MY pocket to do so. As for the "why" part? The RC Church operates a ton of shell companies called "Parishes". It's the same mechanism used to protect against legal battles in regards to priests abusing children.



And on that note, I will give the local Bishop credit. When he took office, one of the first things he did was put up for sale the mansion that his predecesors had lived in (for the record, it was donated to the church, they didn't buy it). The money was used to fund programs to help the impoverished. And since then, they've actually opened up a center downtown to help people. So, at least SOME of those in a position of authority really are interested in doing good, not amassing wealth.

And, if those programs are done with no religious tests included (Such as providing even for "teh gays" who needs it), then I would be ok with that being a tax exempt activity. Unfortunately, it's rarely done without prosthelytizing or attaching religious tests to it.

[W5GA]

While some good came from Theresa's work, she also did quite a bit of harm in Calcutta... Namely, she aided the spread of STD's and poverty, by advocating NOT using birth control of ANY sort.
But, that's not what you said....

And, amazingly, offer ZERO social benefit.
Obviously, there is social benefit. Just not benefit that you agree with.

[w3bny]

Apparently, the Roman Catholic church as well... Sitting on enormous fortunes, yet still mandating money for "prayer candles", pew reservations, prayers, funerals, marriages, etc.

And, amazingly, offer ZERO social benefit.

I just got married in the church....Saturday matter of fact. cost me..uhh...nothing. Now the annulment from the first wife. Different story. Cost a hundred bucks for the paperwork and research. Still, It didnt stop them from sending the letter because I could'nt afford it at the time.

Our votive candles are free thank you very much.

And since I take it you are not Catholic, or just another arm chair Catholic basher/hater I think that you really dont have the required experience to talk about what the Church charges. And no, being baptized in the Church dosnt count. Just makes you a CINO..and barely at that

P.S.

And to really piss you Catholic haters off even more... You do know that the Big Bang theory was discovered by a Catholic Priest...right? Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître

[KG4CGC]

While some good came from Theresa's work, she also did quite a bit of harm in Calcutta... Namely, she aided the spread of STD's and poverty, by advocating NOT using birth control of ANY sort.
It's God's Will that those persons get STDs because God hates them.
i REALIZE THAT SOME MAY THINK THAT i'M JUST BEING AN ASS BY SAYING THESE THINGS but try not to get emotional and ask yourself WHY would someone say such a thing in the first place.

[W3MIV]

i REALIZE THAT SOME MAY THINK THAT i'M JUST BEING AN ASS BY SAYING THESE THINGS but try not to get emotional and ask yourself WHY would someone say such a thing in the first place.

That is merely a feedback loop.

[W3WN]

I just got married in the church....Saturday matter of fact. cost me..uhh...nothing. Now the annulment from the first wife. Different story. Cost a hundred bucks for the paperwork and research. Still, It didnt stop them from sending the letter because I could'nt afford it at the time.
< snip >Now, that is interesting.

When Julie & I went to get married, her parish priest informed us that in order to have a church wedding, or at least a wedding with a RC priest present, I would have to apply to Rome for an annulment. It didn't matter that neither I nor my ex were RC, nor that we were married in a civil ceremony in the magistrate's office... nope! To get the official blessing, I had to apply to the Pope, pay a fee well over $500, wait 6 months and hope I'd get it.

I'd tell you what my reaction to that was, but it might be considered beyond the realm of what's allowed on this forum. Needless to say, I used many ancient and earthy words of anglo-saxon origin that involved procreation and defecation. (We ended up getting married by a judge in Heinz Chapel, a non-denominational facillity on the Univ of Pittsburgh campus. Gorgeous place.)

A few years later, my sister-in-law's priest tried the same stunt, when they asked Julie to be Godmother to my nephew (little bugger graduates from high school this year, too). Initially refused to let her participate unless I got an annulment (and paid top dollar for it) -- and futher, agreed to take instruction on becoming RC. I used some of those same anglo-saxon terms previously alluded to... then I told my sister-in-law and mother-in-law to tell the goniff whatever he wanted to hear, but don't expect me to actually agree to it or to do it, as I considered the situation analogous to blackmail... and promises made under duress are not binding. Since, at the time, my m-i-l ran the annual church carnival, which raked in something like $50 K net profit for the parish every year, she had some pull... and suddenly, the priest decides that since Julie isn't a member of his parish, he has no say in my religious upkeep. That was the end of that.

... and I almost forgot, congratulations on the nuptials!

[KG4CGC]

I'd tell you what my reaction to that was, but it might be considered beyond the realm of what's allowed on this forum. Needless to say, I used many ancient and earthy words of anglo-saxon origin that involved procreation and defecation. (We ended up getting married by a judge in Heinz Chapel, a non-denominational facillity on the Univ of Pittsburgh campus. Gorgeous place.)

Good for you! And it didn't rain plague down upon the village that day either.

[W3MIV]

Mazel tov, Ren. You have my every wish for a long and happy marriage.


I just got married in the church....Saturday matter of fact. cost me..uhh...nothing. Now the annulment from the first wife. Different story. Cost a hundred bucks for the paperwork and research. Still, It didnt stop them from sending the letter because I could'nt afford it at the time.

Our votive candles are free thank you very much.

And since I take it you are not Catholic, or just another arm chair Catholic basher/hater I think that you really dont have the required experience to talk about what the Church charges. And no, being baptized in the Church dosnt count. Just makes you a CINO..and barely at that

P.S.

And to really piss you Catholic haters off even more... You do know that the Big Bang theory was discovered by a Catholic Priest...right? Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître

[w3bny]

Now, that is interesting.

When Julie & I went to get married, her parish priest informed us that in order to have a church wedding, or at least a wedding with a RC priest present, I would have to apply to Rome for an annulment. It didn't matter that neither I nor my ex were RC, nor that we were married in a civil ceremony in the magistrate's office... nope! To get the official blessing, I had to apply to the Pope, pay a fee well over $500, wait 6 months and hope I'd get it.

... and I almost forgot, congratulations on the nuptials!

If your wife was married in the Church then yes, its a big deal for a dissolution of Marriage and its about 700 bucks and it dosnt go to His Holiness but to the Archbishop or the assign. You were never married in the Church or Temple for that matter so yours was just the annulment for non-form. A suggested 100 dollar fee for the administrative paperwork. Your wife would have had to ask for permission to marry a non-catholic but thats not a big deal. But then again, it is Pittzboig and not the Archdiocese of Washington. But it should be very...VERY close.

[WØTKX]

Congrats Ren. Did you wear your Bunny Tuxedo? :mrgreen:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5aXKw52fnMg/SxM4xz5a8gI/AAAAAAAAACk/Xmu7wM7TEbo/s1600/rabbit+in+tuxedo.jpg

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/rma/lowres/rman8176l.jpg

[KC2UGV]

But, that's not what you said....

Obviously, there is social benefit. Just not benefit that you agree with.

I think giving housing to poor people, when you are part of the problem causing it; is a net loss to society. Especially, seeing as her "affect" will last decades after her death.


I just got married in the church....Saturday matter of fact. cost me..uhh...nothing. Now the annulment from the first wife. Different story. Cost a hundred bucks for the paperwork and research. Still, It didnt stop them from sending the letter because I could'nt afford it at the time.


Really? Nothing? I take it you're up to date in you donations then... Generally, having a priest present costs $50-$100, and church rental.



Our votive candles are free thank you very much.


Sure, they'll give you candles. Now, try getting them onto the little alcove for free.



And since I take it you are not Catholic, or just another arm chair Catholic basher/hater I think that you really dont have the required experience to talk about what the Church charges. And no, being baptized in the Church dosnt count. Just makes you a CINO..and barely at that


I'm not catholic, that much I'm sure is blatantly obvious. However, the RC Catholic church answers this question for us:

10. How much does it cost to get married in the Catholic Church?

Dioceses often regulate the stipend, or offering to the church, that is customary on the occasion of a wedding. Depending on different areas, this might also include the fee for the organist and vocalist. - http://usccb.org/laity/marriage/marriagefaqs.shtml

Odd, I figured since they are the biggest real estate owner in the WORLD, covering a marriage should be simple... I guess not.

As an aside, you'll find I used to be an ardent supporter of Christianity... However, after some critical analysis, I've recognized that Christianity today (In any form) is hardly the teachings of Jesus.



P.S.

And to really piss you Catholic haters off even more... You do know that the Big Bang theory was discovered by a Catholic Priest...right? Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître

I'll never argue that SOME good comes out of religious groups. Did you know the Catholic Church murdered Galileo for claiming the earth revolved around the sun? I guess it balances out, right? I wonder what part balances out the RC Church working to SPREAD HIV in the African continent by fostering the notion of eternal damnation for using a condom?

And, congrats on the marriage :)

Now, that is interesting.

When Julie & I went to get married, her parish priest informed us that in order to have a church wedding, or at least a wedding with a RC priest present, I would have to apply to Rome for an annulment. It didn't matter that neither I nor my ex were RC, nor that we were married in a civil ceremony in the magistrate's office... nope! To get the official blessing, I had to apply to the Pope, pay a fee well over $500, wait 6 months and hope I'd get it.

I'd tell you what my reaction to that was, but it might be considered beyond the realm of what's allowed on this forum. Needless to say, I used many ancient and earthy words of anglo-saxon origin that involved procreation and defecation. (We ended up getting married by a judge in Heinz Chapel, a non-denominational facillity on the Univ of Pittsburgh campus. Gorgeous place.)

A few years later, my sister-in-law's priest tried the same stunt, when they asked Julie to be Godmother to my nephew (little bugger graduates from high school this year, too). Initially refused to let her participate unless I got an annulment (and paid top dollar for it) -- and futher, agreed to take instruction on becoming RC. I used some of those same anglo-saxon terms previously alluded to... then I told my sister-in-law and mother-in-law to tell the goniff whatever he wanted to hear, but don't expect me to actually agree to it or to do it, as I considered the situation analogous to blackmail... and promises made under duress are not binding. Since, at the time, my m-i-l ran the annual church carnival, which raked in something like $50 K net profit for the parish every year, she had some pull... and suddenly, the priest decides that since Julie isn't a member of his parish, he has no say in my religious upkeep. That was the end of that.


You're just a catholic hater... :lol:

[w3bny]

Uhh..No =P

[KC2UGV]

But, that's not what you said....

Obviously, there is social benefit. Just not benefit that you agree with.

Some more about Mother Theresa, and her "generosity":


One can hear the screams of people having maggots tweezered from their open wounds without pain relief. On principle, strong painkillers are even in hard cases not given. According to Mother Teresa's bizarre philosophy, it is "the most beautiful gift for a person that he can participate in the sufferings of Christ". Once she tried to comfort a screaming sufferer: "You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you!" The man got furious and screamed back: "Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing." - http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/mother_teresa/sanal_ed.htm

And some of the "positive social benefit" she bestowed upon Calcutta:

"Ever since I went to England and travelled to other countries in the West, people looked upon me as an oddity - a doctor from the world's ultimate hell-hole," Chatterjee said.

Persistent confrontations with his native city's negative image in the West prompted Chatterjee to write 'Mother Teresa: The Final Verdict', a treatise on the activities of the Missionaries of Charity and its founder.

Kolkata's negative image was the result of persistent media coverage of Mother Teresa and the activities of the Missionaries of Charity that depicted the Nobel laureate nun as the ultimate saviour of a city teeming with leprosy patients, he said.

Even small western businesses did not scout in Kolkata because of its negative image, which neither the Mother nor her organisation made any attempt to allay, Chatterjee alleged. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/13249

She set Calcutta back 20-40 years, economically.

[W3WN]

If your wife was married in the Church then yes, its a big deal for a dissolution of Marriage and its about 700 bucks and it dosnt go to His Holiness but to the Archbishop or the assign. You were never married in the Church or Temple for that matter so yours was just the annulment for non-form. A suggested 100 dollar fee for the administrative paperwork. Your wife would have had to ask for permission to marry a non-catholic but thats not a big deal. But then again, it is Pittzboig and not the Archdiocese of Washington. But it should be very...VERY close.
Actually, she and her ex had already gotten an annulment, so they were covered. In any case, this was 20 years ago, and considering that I told them (not so politely) to take a long walk off a short pier...

[W3WN]

< snip >
You're just a catholic hater... :lol:Yeah, well I married one, so I'm entitled! :twisted:

[W5GA]

If your wife was married in the Church then yes, its a big deal for a dissolution of Marriage and its about 700 bucks and it dosnt go to His Holiness but to the Archbishop or the assign.
Pardon my ignorance...what's an assign?

[n2ize]

I'm a churchman.