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http://apphydro.com/photos.htm A friend with three trucks on for Fed-Ex is considering this option for our now 425 a gallon diesel here..
uses 32-38 amperes of current from the alternator.
Where's all that electricity goin' ? It can't require that much to separate a gallon of water a week .
ab1ga
03-11-2011, 08:34 PM
http://apphydro.com/photos.htm A friend with three trucks on for Fed-Ex is considering this option for our now 425 a gallon diesel here..
Please tell him to keep his money in his pocket. Either it's a scam or the vendor doesn't know what he's talking about. If anything, this system is less efficient than just running the diesel engine alone!
73,
Thats why i asked. All kinds of snake oil ya know
Yeah, ya gotta watch out for those HHO and Brown's Gas experimenters ya know......
KG4CGC
03-11-2011, 09:05 PM
Tom, didn't you do some HHO research back on the farm?
WA4TM
03-11-2011, 09:41 PM
I think that was alcohol research!!!
Tom, didn't you do some HHO research back on the farm?
WØTKX
03-11-2011, 09:58 PM
Pouge Carburetor. Reminds me a bit of his/her noodley goodness. :lol:
http://blog.hasslberger.com/img/Pogue_Carb_design.jpg
The Navy uses electrolysis to make O2 on subs. It takes 1050A @ 50V to make 150 scfh (standard cubic feet/hour) at 3000 psi using pure DI water in a 30% solution of potassium hydroxide. That means you get 300 scfh of hydrogen, but it take LOTS of juice to do it. In my mind, pure hydrogen around a hot engine would be pretty stupid.
His 30 or so amps won't do squat but relieve his wallet. Have your friend google "6L16 oxygen generator".
W3MIV
03-12-2011, 07:53 AM
The article is not very clear, but what I get from the website is that they are using a mixture of gaseous hydrogen and oxygen as a fuel supplement to increase the efficiency of the combustion of the petroleum fuel. In other words, stretch -- not replace -- the diesel oil. If that's the case, the figures of thirty-plus amps and a nominal gallon of water to produce a gas mixture at 1/4psi that would last for about a week doesn't seem out of line.
My question would be, if the insertion of the gases adds to the power of combustion, thus reducing the amount of diesel fuel needed to produce the same power at the axle, what is being done about the metering of the fuel to the engine? Is the same amount of diesel being inserted into the cylinders? Did I miss something along the way?
I'm an artist, not an engineer.
The article is not very clear, but what I get from the website is that they are using a mixture of gaseous hydrogen and oxygen as a fuel supplement to increase the efficiency of the combustion of the petroleum fuel. In other words, stretch -- not replace -- the diesel oil. If that's the case, the figures of thirty-plus amps and a nominal gallon of water to produce a gas mixture at 1/4psi that would last for about a week doesn't seem out of line.
My question would be, if the insertion of the gases adds to the power of combustion, thus reducing the amount of diesel fuel needed to produce the same power at the axle, what is being done about the metering of the fuel to the engine? Is the same amount of diesel being inserted into the cylinders? Did I miss something along the way?
I'm an artist, not an engineer.
Albi, one gallon of water contains 166 cubic feet of hydrogen, and that 166 cubic feet contains 44,820 btu, assuming 100% conversion which you won't get. #2 Diesel contains 130,500 btu/gallon, and a large truck gets somewhere around 4-7 miles per gallon. Over the one week that this gallon of water is supposed to last, you haven't added much in the way of btu content at all. Pure, unadulterated snake oil.
The other thing there trying now days is a propane injection system. But the damn tanks are so heavy it don't pay.
W3MIV
03-12-2011, 09:33 AM
Albi, one gallon of water contains 166 cubic feet of hydrogen, and that 166 cubic feet contains 44,820 btu, assuming 100% conversion which you won't get. #2 Diesel contains 130,500 btu/gallon, and a large truck gets somewhere around 4-7 miles per gallon. Over the one week that this gallon of water is supposed to last, you haven't added much in the way of btu content at all. Pure, unadulterated snake oil.
TU for putting it into terms a humble -- well.... OK, TU for putting into terms I can understand. ;)
Tom, didn't you do some HHO research back on the farm?
Yep, that's why everyone has gotta watch out for those experimenters....... Actually Paul and I both worked on generators and year before last when Brad and I drove my Trooper to Dayton we ran a generator to perform a bit of an effects experiment.
KG4CGC
03-12-2011, 03:25 PM
The other thing there trying now days is a propane injection system. But the damn tanks are so heavy it don't pay.
I saw a kit for that 5 years ago. Great for racing but don't know what else and, if the pay off is better fuel economy. One would think yes, but ...
I saw a kit for that 5 years ago. Great for racing but don't know what else and, if the pay off is better fuel economy. One would think yes, but ...
Sounds like time for an experiment to me.....
KG4CGC
03-12-2011, 04:02 PM
Sounds like time for an experiment to me.....
You got a diesel to test on?
ab1ga
03-12-2011, 07:24 PM
The other thing there trying now days is a propane injection system. But the damn tanks are so heavy it don't pay.
A high school buddy of mine modified his pickup to run on LP gas in the late '70s. When he broke down the engine later, he remarked how clean everything was, but I don't remember him saving a lot of money. He installed his tank in the bed of the truck right behind the driver's seat (!).
In New England quite a few people use LP gas to heat their homes instead of #2 oil, and the price can be a bit tough to take at times. You can put a hundred gallons of oil in a tank and six months later you still have a hundred gallons of oil. LP tanks tend to vent over time, especially in warm temperatures, so unless you're using it, you're losing it. If you look at the pricing structure of some suppliers, you can see that if you want the best pricing, you not only have to by in large enough quantity, but also take delivery according to a schedule, because the supplier is trying to avoid boil-off on his end. I'm also not sure I'd want to trust some of the types who live around here to refuel their vehicles at a filling station without filming a remake of "The Towering Inferno".
You got a diesel to test on?
Not yet but I am eyeballing a Liberty for sale here locally. It's a 4 cylinder turbo that is alleged to get 21mpg city and 27mpg highway..... will let you know if I decide to snag it. Maybe we can do a little modifying to it.
Oh and doesn't Fort Hills trucks run off of LP?
ab1ga
03-12-2011, 08:27 PM
Not yet but I am eyeballing a Liberty for sale here locally. It's a 4 cylinder turbo that is alleged to get 21mpg city and 27mpg highway..... will let you know if I decide to snag it. Maybe we can do a little modifying to it.
Oh and doesn't Fort Hills trucks run off of LP?
Certainly could be. In the Boston area, there are some bus lines which smell like they're using LP gas, and sound like they're using turbines, of all things. If you have a fleet with pretty constant usage, then you can easily buy on schedule, use trained personnel (whatever that means nowadays) to refuel them, and amortize the infrastructure cost over many vehicles. And depending on where you live, supplies may be cheaper. New England is sort of at the end of the line when it comes to energy distribution.
73,
KG4CGC
03-12-2011, 08:38 PM
Oh and doesn't Fort Hills trucks run off of LP?
No sure but I think most of the service fleet is. I seem to recall a move towards biodiesel about 4.5 years ago but two years back gas dropped to less than 1.80 a gallon and they said "fudge it."
Many of San Diego County's MRTD busses run on CNG. Natural gas has less energy per cubic foot than LPG but it's cheaper.
Many of San Diego County's MRTD busses run on CNG. Natural gas has less energy per cubic foot than LPG but it's cheaper.
Two issues with CNG - It's really expensive to convert a diesel, because it is then a spark fired engine. About 1/2 the cost in conversion is tankage cuz it's stored at 3400 psi on the vehicle. When I was with Tulsa Schools, the cost was $54k/conversion to have the same range as a 40 gallon diesel tank. AFAIK, there is only one native CNG engine, the Cummins ISLG. The engines we were using were converted IC DT-466's.
Second is availability. Even some major metro areas don't have compressor stations. If the supply issues could be cured it would be a superb option for MV fuel.
The busses in question were all CNG powered from the factory so, while initial cost may have been an issue, conversion wasn't. The tanks appear to be mounted on the roof of the busses under a fiberglass fairing.
Of course, the main reason they went with CNG was for air quality--California has strict limits on diesel particulate emissions because they are known carcinogens. It's turned out to be a boon for them in cost savings as well, not only for fuel cost (they locked in a long-term contract with their CNG supplier) but in maintenance costs as well. The CNG burns so much cleaner than #2 diesel that the engines last longer and require less care.
CNG makes a lot of sense in vehicles large enough to manage the unwieldy tank.
W3MIV
03-13-2011, 09:16 AM
T Boone Pickens agrees entirely.
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