BPL on a personal scale?

[KC9ECI]

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=310

How much RFI will your neighbor cause you with these things?

[NQ6U]

I left a little note about that on their message board.

http://community.wdc.com/t5/WD-Livewire/RFI-Matters/td-p/144424

That's a old handle of mine, BTW.

[n2ize]

Good question. I don't know. Depends on the specks and what freq ranges ip operates under. This is nothing new. There are several companies selling devices to turn home wiring into a network. At least one of the companies , "Home Plug" I think, has supposedly been cooperative in effectively applying notch filtering across the ham bands on their equipment. Or so I've been told.

These days however wireless networking is so cheap. It comes built in to so many things. And wireless routers can be had pretty inexpensive these days as well. A local MEI Microcenter store was actually giving away coupons for free wireless N routers a few weeks ago. Why would anyone want to hook up through the power lines when they can go wireless ?

[KC9ECI]

I feel a little queasy...http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?287204-BPL-on-a-personal-scale

[KG4CGC]

Let the cluster**ck begin.
Tony's right, Gyrogeerloose (http://community.wdc.com/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/55868)

[KC9ECI]

I also shot an email off to Ed Hare at the ARRL to ask if he has any insight.

[ab1ga]

From FCC Part 15 Regulations:

§ 15.5 General conditions of operation.

(a) Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any given frequency by virtue of prior registration or certification of equipment, or, for power line carrier systems, on the basis of prior notification of use pursuant to § 90.63(g) of this chapter.

(b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental radiator.

(c) The operator of a radio frequency device shall be required to cease operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.

(d) Intentional radiators that produce Class B emissions (damped wave) are prohibited.

[KG4CGC]

Note the web address, they're in the UK. If they're marketing here, they need to get someone on the board to answer the Yanks from a Yank perspective.

[NQ6U]

Thanks, Dale--I did a copy/pasta to that site.

[ab1ga]

Note the web address, they're in the UK. If they're marketing here, they need to get someone on the board to answer the Yanks from a Yank perspective.

Good catch, bartender. Let me buy you a drink.

[KG4CGC]

Good catch, bartender. Let me buy you a drink.
Aww, shucks!

[KC9ECI]

I don't see a .co.uk. I see a /en/ to indicate that it is the English language page. What am I missing?

[KG4CGC]

I don't see a .co.uk. I see a /en/ to indicate that it is the English language page. What am I missing?
Sorry, this page got me a little confused.
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/350648/does-powerline-networking-nuke-radio-hams
There could still well be talking from a UK perspective.

[KC9ECI]

Copy that.

[ab1ga]

Sorry, this page got me a little confused.
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/350648/does-powerline-networking-nuke-radio-hams
There could still well be talking from a UK perspective.

Keep the drink, you probably need it. Hell, pour yourself another. :-)

[NQ6U]

The item in question is being marketed by Western Digital. I believe they are a U.S. company. Or, as U.S. as any big company ever is these days.

[PA5COR]

Did some digging on this for our Dutch forum.
The UK (RSGB) has a lot on it, and since most homeplugs use the same chipset you look to be in for a shock if that stuff is being used near you.
The notches are just 30 dB on the Ham bands, so if you have a S9+30 dB noise, you are left with a S9 noise...

http://www.schurter.com/de/content/download/96752/2651812/version/1/file/Fachvortrag+BAKOM+PLC+2011+DE.pdf
Sorry, German but the supplied pictures will tell you the story anywway.
If need be i can translate the parts you need.
http://www.rsgb.org/emc/rsgb-and-ofcom-correspondence.php
http://www.rsgb.org/emc/the-rsgb-and-ofcom.php

[N2CHX]

I'm thinking that if the front end of the receiver on these devices gets swamped by something else dumping a strong signal into the line, whoever has one of these devices isn't going to like the fact that it only works intermittently. ;)

I want to do a little research and see what frequencies they use.

Fortunately the signal doesn't usually get past the secondary of the pole transformer so if a neighbor has one it should only interfere with homes on the same transformer. If it's radiating enough signal to cause a wide area of interference, then it's radiating over the limits specified by Part 15.

[N8YX]

From the link:


...Media-optimized HomePlug AV technology offers up to 200 Mbps* performance for smooth HD video streaming over your network...
I'm currently running a pair of Netgear dual-band WiFi routers (a 3700 and a 3400) in base/repeater mode and get well over 300Mbps throughput. Additionally, each device has a USB port so I can connect a local NAS then share it with the rest of the network.

The 3700 is $140 and the 3400 is $80, and the GS608 switches that I have connected up to the 3700 were $80 ea. Further expansion will see additional 3400s - two - for a grand total of $540. I get gigabit speeds everywhere in the house and wireless repeaters into the garage...with no pesky HF RF issues.

[KC9ECI]

I asked Ed Hare, W1RFI for his take and he says


Hi, Tom,

The device uses HomePlug technology. The HomePlug AV specification does
not use the Amateur bands, as can be seen in the joint report from
testing done by ARRL and representatives from HomePlug companies back in
2000. See http://p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/HomePlug_ARRL.pdf. Within the
ham bands, the emissions are down about 30 dB, on a level comparable to
other devices. Although there is some potential for interference under
some circumstances, so far, with over 20,000,000 HomePlug devices
deployed in the US, ARRL has not received a single complaint of
interference to Amateur Radio associated with HomePlug devices. The do
not notch the 60-meter band, however, but so far, we don't have any
reports.

There is a newer HomePlug "Gigabit" spec that does extend to about 200
MHz, and it does not protect the 6- and 2-meter bands, but the emissions
level in those bands is, by FCC regulation, reduced by 30 dB above 30
MHz, so the noise on those bands is at about the same level as the noise
in the HF notches. Again, so far, zero complaints of interference
received here. Naturally, a ham may not be able to operate these
devices in his own home, but IMHO, the interference problem in the ham
bands from these devices is not very severe and, more important, the
fact that the manufacturer intentionally designed it that way is an
important step that merits support.

Having said all that, other spectrum is impacted fairly strongly, but
those services have been all too silent about the interference
potetential. ARRL's standing is to speak for Amateur Radio. We have
been pretty clear that if ARRL members have interference to other radio
interests, if they file formal complaints, we will support them. To
date, even in "full BPL" areas, with strong interference to WWV and
shortwave broadcast, we have not received many formal complaints. If
ARRL were to try to initiate allegations of interference without actual
complaints, the BPL industry would try to discredit ALL of the League's
work, claiming that it is inventing interference that does not actually
exist.

I suspect that I am the "honored contributor" that the post refers to,
and I do note that my posts have often included information similar to
the above, which the poster conveniently left out of his short summary
of the information in my posts. I do indeed have "first hand" experience
with these devices, having been involved in the testing that led to the
product not using the ham bands. Apparently, he wants "personal
experience" that supports some other conclusion than the one I have
reached. :-)

Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio
ARRL Laboratory Manager
225 Main St
Newington, CT 06111
Tel: 860-594-0318
Internet: W1RFI@arrl.org
Web: http://www.arrl.org/
Member: IEEE, Standards Association, Electromagnetic Compatibility
Society
Secretary: IEEE, Connecticut Chapter
Secretary: IEEE EMC Society Standards Development Committee
Member: ASC C63 EMC Committee, Chairman: Subcommittee 5, Immunity
Vice Chair: IEEE P1775 BPL EMC Committee
Member: ICES SCC-28 RF Safety
Member: Society of Automotive Engineers EMC/EMR Committee
Board of Directors: QRP Amateur Radio Club International

[n2ize]

rest assured , some cheap Chinese knockoffs of these things will appear on the market soon and will have no notching and will interfere with everything from DC to 50 Gigacycles. And since they will be sold cheap at Wallmart your neighbors will buy it.

You can buy cell phone blockers from some of the Chinese sights despite the fact they are illegal.

[KC9ECI]

You mean from places like http://www.dealextreme.com/

[KG4CGC]

rest assured , some cheap Chinese knockoffs of these things will appear on the market soon and will have no notching and will interfere with everything from DC to 50 Gigacycles. And since they will be sold cheap at Wallmart your neighbors will buy it.

You can buy cell phone blockers from some of the Chinese sights despite the fact they are illegal.
Most Americans are too poor to shop at Wallmart now.

[KA5PIU]

You mean from places like http://www.dealextreme.com/

Hello.

Hey watch it, I shop there! ;)
Anyhow, did you know that you can use home wiring as an antenna?
You did not?
Well, here is what you do.
First, you make sure your tuner has capacitive coupling between it and the power line, k?
Next, tune the power line for a low SWR on the chosen band.
The best way to connect to the power line is with a steel hook that you drop onto the chosen ones pole, connecting to ground also.
About 100 watts should do it. ;)
Remember to connect to the low side, pick one, the other, but not both!

[n2ize]

You mean from places like http://www.dealextreme.com/

Yeah, and if you read the reviews there are idiots who apparently buy them and use them (with varying degrees of success) in this country despite the fact they are in direct violation of FCC law. One day there is going to be an emergency and a delayed response because nobody can reach 911 because of a jammer. And these days many emergency workers, i.e. firemen, cops, EMS, etc. pass important messages via cell phones. The person operating the jammer, if caught, is gonna be in a heap o trouble. Not just from the FCC but for interfering with public service and emergency communications , not to mention civil suits from injured parties.

[n2ize]

Hello.

Hey watch it, I shop there! ;)


Don't worry, I sometimes shop DX as well. Only problem with DX is that they are SLOW ! They take a long time to process orders. When I order from them I plan on waiting 3-4 weeks for the merchandise to be delivered. Otherwise their prices on a lot of stuff are good and, depending on what you buy, the quality can be good.

[KC9ECI]

Interesting how many more views and replies this topic has generated here, vs the worlds busiest ham radio forum. Looks like things have really slowed down there.

[X-Rated]

Interesting how many more views and replies this topic has generated here, vs the worlds busiest ham radio forum. Looks like things have really slowed down there.

You are correct Comrad. (http://qrz.ru/)

[PA5COR]

Something to read up on, E - Book

Potential threats to radio services from PLT systems

http://personnellement.net/download/pdf/Potential%20threats%20to%20radio%20services%20from %20PLT%20systems/aHR0cDovL3RlY2guZWJ1LmNoL2RvY3MvdGVjaHJldmlldy90cm V2XzMwNy1zdG90dC5wZGY

[N1LAF]

Interesting how many more views and replies this topic has generated here, vs the worlds busiest ham radio forum. Looks like things have really slowed down there.

It might have something to do with more freedom here, and no silly moderator games. Moderation here has always been top level here. We may be more technically savvy here too.

[KC9ECI]

It might have something to do with more freedom here, and no silly moderator games. Moderation here has always been top level here. We may be more technically savvy here too.

Ya think?

[W2NAP]

well if one shows up in your hood. get the 1.5KW amp out and go to town with some 1500 watt cw

[X-Rated]

well if one shows up in your hood. get the 1.5KW amp out and go to town with some 1500 watt cw

PACTOR.