Lighting.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

A while back I had posted a thread about lighting, pointing out that I like the warm glow of an incandescent bulb.
http://www.ferrowatt.com/products.php#a2
And, I see in one eye in the near infrared, not all that uncommon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_vision
The trouble with me is that the spectral range is not the same in both eyes.
An incandescent lamp produces an even spectrum of light.
It also averages out the 60 cycle waveform.
A florescent light produces a fairly even spectrum of light, but does flicker at a 60 cycle rate.
A "white" LED actually produces 3 or 4 color peaks as well as a very sharp response to the 60 cycle AC waveform.
In my experiments I decided to provide a standard incandescent light bulb with 134VDC nominal from household AC.
This was done by taking both legs from the 110/220 panel from a dual breaker rated at 10 amps and feeding this to a 5 amp per leg fuse and dual diode assembly.
This provides a full wave DC that is than smoothed by 2 caps, just like you would find in any power supply.
So we now have a very stiff DC supply.
Connected any of several common incandescent bulbs, no noticeable change.
Connected a CFL, instant change.
The CFL uses a simple inverter or switching power supply operating at a fairly high frequency, but rides the 60 cycle waveform.
On DC it is stable to my eyes.
But, by far the most pronounced change was in the LED lights!
DC works far better!
Turns out that the average LED lamp assembly comes on at around 60 to 70 volts DC and only operates at half wave.
So, revisited the CFL, same thing, operates only on one part of the waveform.
Removed the smoothing caps on the power supply and retried the experiment.
Although there was some detectable artifact on the LED lamps, for everything else it was gone.
The reason for taking the AC supply from 110/220 and not simply a bridge rectifier is that in this manner the neutral is always at or near ground potential.
With a bridge circuit the ground and hot would swing 30 times a second.
I still notice the LED having peaks, it makes everything look like it has a slight "shadow".
But, in every case, providing DC for lighting has proven to be better.
I prefer a low level incandescent as it produces plenty of IR.
A CFL on DC is my next choice, warm to warm white.
A LED assembly with a few near infrared added is better but not what I prefer.
As a note: some LED and CFL are tip or base positive when fed with DC.
Although there is no standard with this, as a rule the same model will be the same in this respect.
So, if your lamp will simply not come on with DC, try and reverse the connection.
Of course, in the case of incandescent this does not matter.
Please do experiment and report your findings, I would like to see what others have to say.

Thank you.

[w2amr]

:wtf: #2

[rot]

Tell you what I'll do Rudy.
Our lab uses an age old technique to monitor starch degradation by amylases using a starch iodine complex. A color transit from blue to red is determined by a analysts' subjective comparison to a color plate illuminated by a incandescant bulb. It is compared to a standard endpoint color plate which is sort of an ice-tea brown color. I'll swap out to an LED in the comparator and will monitor the complex using a standardized amylase.
I will report my findings...say around 2015 sometime...
Best I can do bud...sort of backlogged here.
rot

[WV6Z]

WART / IBTSS

[ka8ncr]

Those dammed CFLs piss me off. The ones with the right color temperature and fast warm-up are not only expensive, they don't last any longer than an incandescent when used in low duty cycle applications (like a closet light).

I'm thinking this whole thing about getting rid of incandescent bulbs is a manufacturer inspired mandate to get people to quit paying 40 cents for a bulb and get them paying $5. All they're going to do is create a black market for light bulbs as they have for large water closet toilets (you can get a Canadian toilet with huge water closets).

Furthermore, I don't see how a CLF that lasts as long as an incandescent is anything but less "green".

Rant off. Thanks for listening, I now return you to the normal incoherency.

[rot]

WART / IBTSS
Damnit Tom...
WTF does the International Bermuda Triangle Space Station have to do with anything???
:rofl:

MoMeds,NC
rot

[WV6Z]

LOL..... Worked All Rudy Threads / In Before The Shit Storm..... ;)

[WV6Z]

Oh shit, Rottley....... if'n you have a notion to, keep an eye on Charles' Sched Thread later this evening....... I will be making an earnest attempt at being radio active at about 00:00z. I'm thinking, somewhere between 40 and 75m (including 60m) if I can rustle up a few participants. I may have a pretty cool surprise (those-in-attendance-wise) for those that show up if this sorely missed here guy will actually get my messages to him between now and this evening. Should be fun.....

Sadly, I must report that I will be limited to QRP though (100w out).

[NQ6U]

:wtf: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c79/bebop5/36d05b8d.png

[N2CHX]

Rudy, here's an experiment for you. Take the output of your rectifier, connect one side to your tongue and wrap the other side around your balls with a short length of wire. Turn on the breaker and report back to us whether or not this produces an effect similar to eating a magic mushroom or not.

[ab1ga]

Careful, everybody!
I've noticed a marked increase in volume and intensity of hostility to Rudy's posts.
I've also noticed a marked increase in the number of threads he's started.
He may be carrying the Dilmovirus.
He may also wind up owning you.

(UV lights on, bleach/TSP solution ready)

:-)

73,

[W7XF]

Please pass the brain bleach xD


WART/IBTSS

[KG4CGC]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c79/bebop5/36d05b8d.png

[KA5PIU]

Rudy, here's an experiment for you. Take the output of your rectifier, connect one side to your tongue and wrap the other side around your balls with a short length of wire. Turn on the breaker and report back to us whether or not this produces an effect similar to eating a magic mushroom or not.

Hello.

Around here that is the "Homo test". ;)

[n2ize]

Those dammed CFLs piss me off. The ones with the right color temperature and fast warm-up are not only expensive, they don't last any longer than an incandescent when used in low duty cycle applications (like a closet light).

No, they don't last longer in that type of application. Nor do they save money. They are far superior however in applications like room lighting where they are not turned off and on often. Under such circumstances they do last long and save money.


I'm thinking this whole thing about getting rid of incandescent bulbs is a manufacturer inspired mandate to get people to quit paying 40 cents for a bulb and get them paying $5. All they're going to do is create a black market for light bulbs as they have for large water closet toilets (you can get a Canadian toilet with huge water closets).

By "water closet" I presume you mean the tank. I don't know why anyone would want a toilet with a large high capacity tank these days. We recently installed on with a 2.5 gallon tank and it works so much better than the older ones with the large tanks. Much more efficient.


Furthermore, I don't see how a CLF that lasts as long as an incandescent is anything but less "green".

Used in areas where they are on most of the time, and are not turned on / off frequently they far outlast incandescents. And that stuff about the mercury being hazardous is nonsense spread by the "hippies". People have been using long tube fluorescents for years and they contain much more mercury. The amount of mercury in a cfl is so negligible it is not even there.

[n2ize]

Hello.

A while back I had posted a thread about lighting, pointing out that I like the warm glow of an incandescent bulb.
http://www.ferrowatt.com/products.php#a2
And, I see in one eye in the near infrared, not all that uncommon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_vision
The trouble with me is that the spectral range is not the same in both eyes.
An incandescent lamp produces an even spectrum of light.
It also averages out the 60 cycle waveform.
A florescent light produces a fairly even spectrum of light, but does flicker at a 60 cycle rate.
A "white" LED actually produces 3 or 4 color peaks as well as a very sharp response to the 60 cycle AC waveform.
In my experiments I decided to provide a standard incandescent light bulb with 134VDC nominal from household AC.
This was done by taking both legs from the 110/220 panel from a dual breaker rated at 10 amps and feeding this to a 5 amp per leg fuse and dual diode assembly.
This provides a full wave DC that is than smoothed by 2 caps, just like you would find in any power supply.
So we now have a very stiff DC supply.
Connected any of several common incandescent bulbs, no noticeable change.
Connected a CFL, instant change.
The CFL uses a simple inverter or switching power supply operating at a fairly high frequency, but rides the 60 cycle waveform.
On DC it is stable to my eyes.
But, by far the most pronounced change was in the LED lights!
DC works far better!
Turns out that the average LED lamp assembly comes on at around 60 to 70 volts DC and only operates at half wave.
So, revisited the CFL, same thing, operates only on one part of the waveform.
Removed the smoothing caps on the power supply and retried the experiment.
Although there was some detectable artifact on the LED lamps, for everything else it was gone.
The reason for taking the AC supply from 110/220 and not simply a bridge rectifier is that in this manner the neutral is always at or near ground potential.
With a bridge circuit the ground and hot would swing 30 times a second.
I still notice the LED having peaks, it makes everything look like it has a slight "shadow".
But, in every case, providing DC for lighting has proven to be better.
I prefer a low level incandescent as it produces plenty of IR.
A CFL on DC is my next choice, warm to warm white.
A LED assembly with a few near infrared added is better but not what I prefer.
As a note: some LED and CFL are tip or base positive when fed with DC.
Although there is no standard with this, as a rule the same model will be the same in this respect.
So, if your lamp will simply not come on with DC, try and reverse the connection.
Of course, in the case of incandescent this does not matter.
Please do experiment and report your findings, I would like to see what others have to say.

Thank you.

Interesting. Never tried lighting flourescents on DC. Up to a few years ago there were still some sections of Manhattan that were still being supplied with DC current. Now only AC is supplied and rectifiers are installed in buildings that still need DC.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

San Antonio had DC right up until the 80s also, but it was 500 volts, to run the old elevators.
This started as streetcar power.
A few years ago a private company hung banners across the road, advertising something.
They hooked onto an old fitting that was used by the streetcars years before.
Turns out that it was still connected to the DC power but had been painted over several times.
Once they got it up it took a few minutes to get going, but it arced over and the banner caught fire.
But, yes, CFL can be run on DC, old tube florescent with the magnetic ballast can not, do not know about the electronic ballast.

[N2CHX]

Hello.

Around here that is the "Homo test". ;)

So you're quite familiar with it then.

[KA5PIU]

So you're quite familiar with it then.

Hello.

I much prefer standing in the bed of a truck, whip in hand, chasing them down the street although I have not done this since I was a Bexar county reserve. ;)

[w2amr]

Hello.

I much prefer standing in the bed of a truck, whip in hand, chasing them down the street although I have not done this since I was a Bexar county reserve. ;)Reserve what?

[kb2vxa]

"But, yes, CFL can be run on DC, old tube florescent with the magnetic ballast can not, do not know about the electronic ballast."

Here's the inside dope on "electronic" properly known as inverter ballasts. It's your basic Tesla coil supplying HV HF at low current to the lamp which makes it operate more efficiently than feeding it amps to develop the mercury vapor plasma arc. Miniaturize it, coil the arc tube and stick it on a standard Edison base and you have a CFL. That's why they can run on DC, the AC mains current is rectified and approximately 140VDC peak is applied to the inverter. You're wasting your time and effort building a DC supply for these things when all you have to do is add filtering to the cheapo power supply that's already in there.

Rudy, you're the EE around here so why have you never tried to figure out what makes these things tick? Here's my excuse, I used to build inverter ballasts as part of my last employment so I'd be interested hearing yours. (;->)

Here's something that'll make you go "hmmm", Nikola Tesla invented both the fluorescent lamp AND the inverter ballast to operate it.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I am aware of the basic design of the CFL, and why I tried DC.
It is not so much filtering as it is the fact that they only use one side of the waveform.
For the application the filtering is OK, and that is the goal of an importer/supplier, to make them work, to a price.
However I would like a little more.
One could rip the units apart, unsolder the wiring and add a bridge rectifier, reassemble, and have it work better.
Or one can add a bridge rectifier to the base of the lamp socket or inside the fixture.
Doing this has no effect on incandescent bulbs.
Except for polarity, for most people there is no noticeable effect.
The "florescent headache" is reduced on the subjects tested so far.

[n2ize]

Hello.

San Antonio had DC right up until the 80s also, but it was 500 volts, to run the old elevators.
This started as streetcar power.
A few years ago a private company hung banners across the road, advertising something.
They hooked onto an old fitting that was used by the streetcars years before.
Turns out that it was still connected to the DC power but had been painted over several times.
Once they got it up it took a few minutes to get going, but it arced over and the banner caught fire.
But, yes, CFL can be run on DC, old tube florescent with the magnetic ballast can not, do not know about the electronic ballast.

And yet I remember my dad bringing home a fluorescent tube from the place where he worked in a very old building in a very old section of Manhattan. he brought it home to replace the same sized tube in a bathroom fixture. I guess he figures it would save a few bucks and a trip to the hardware store. But when we put it into the fixture it didn't light correctly. One side of the tube lit near the end but the rest of the tube stayed dark. Then when we looked at the label on the tube it said something to the effect of "For DC Service Only". In the house we had standard 60 cycle AC. That boggles my mind to this day. Never heard of a straight tube fluorescent for "DC Only". never saw another one after that either.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

DC only service lamps are designed very much like electron tubes, with an anode and a cathode.
AC lamps on DC tend to quickly blacken one end.
Turning it around is a quick fix but still, not as good as a lamp for DC service.
Also, the starter circuit differs a bit.
There is a transformer, but also a mechanical starter, a contact assembly that works off the transformer.
And, it is a true transformer, not a ballast, it needs to create the HV needed to start the lamp.

[kb2vxa]

Is there anything you DON'T know? Actually it's not a true transformer being the Ix at DC would burn out the winding in a split second. Rather it's a series inductive ballast with a vibrating interrupter much like an old Ford ignition coil only it also contains a resistive element as a current limiter.

"...it needs to create the HV needed to start the lamp."
At least you got that part of it right. (;->)

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

What I mean by being a true transformer is just that, a 3 winding transformer with a mechanical vibrator, no connection between any windings.
They will run just fine on AC.
On DC, current is applied and that starts the vibrator and there is also an incandescent lamp.
Once current is applied the inrush of current starts the vibrator.
This produces both the filament current and the high voltage.
The incandescent lamp heats up and starts to light, but the tube will already be lit.
Failing that, you might need to push the red start button, a simple short of the incandescent lamp.
On AC the transformers would produce around 12 volts on the filament winding and 500 volts on the lamp winding.
This works out perfect if somebody wanted to power a simple transmitter.
The older automobile radio, that monster with the speaker in front, was the excellent companion.
Do what is needed to expand it to 2 bands, connect a "AC transformer" a device used to turn DC to AC, wiring around the vibrator and using this to drive the plate side of the car radio transformer and adding a pair of diodes to get the needed DC for the plates.
I used the heater control center that came from whatever car and the sheet metal and put the transmitter in it.
The whole thing operated below or above the AM broadcast band, in AM.
I had this in San Antonio as my "test" station.
Lets just say the US government very much approved of this.
It operated in the same frequency ranges as the Neu Volksempfänger.