Data & Access

[W3WN]

This is one of those items that could go in any of a number of forums, so if this seems misplaced here, my apologies...

I'm involved in a discussion on the Contesting reflector (as usual, I'm in the minority view) regarding how the data gathered by the Reverse Beacon Network is being used.

...what's RBN? In essence, it's a set of receivers set up all over the world that uses software ("Skimmer" being the most mentioned application) to scan the bands and report on any calls it detects. Think of it as an automated feed into the packet cluster spotting network, and you get the idea. It's more than that, of course, and it has several interesting uses, but that's not what's important right now...

It recently came to light that the central server(s) that RBN uses stores all of the information received, and saves a "daily digest" into a database format. And... anyone can download and use these database files.

Heres' where I have an issue. Granted, at the moment, it's more of a philosophical or academic one. But I am not at all comfortable with the notion that these files are open access to anyone.

The majority view (which is being presented by the people who set up and support RBN) is that there's nothing wrong with this. After all, our transmissions are all public, so what's the big deal? And our calls are all listed in the FCC database, out in the open, so why would we expect any privacy?

Now those two points may be true... although I disagree with the idea that just because our transmissions are "public" and can be overheard by anyone at any time, it follows that we have no privacy concerns. But -- that's not the point.

It's these collections of data that concern me. A day's worth of a significant portion of operations on the band(s) -- each. That's quite a set of information.

Who would use such a thing? Well, RBN advocates want these to be made available to the log checkers of contests to try and catch "cheating." How effective that could be is another story... but I don't have a problem with that, per se. And they could be used as a research source for propagation studies... yeah, sure, but while I haven't heard of anyone doing that as of yet, I can see the possibility.

The third option, though... well, why would a third party want this data? Marketing comes to mind. Imagine that you have an application (software package, better antenna, better radio) and you want to target active hams. Data like this would be invaluable... you'd know who was very active, who was so-so, and could market accordingly.

Think this is unlikely? Well, consider PropNet. Their server sent me an automated email within 12 hours of my first (and unsuccesful) test PSK-31 CQ, informing me that I had been detected, and since I'm OBVIOUSLY interested in PSK, I need to check out all of the wonderful things on their web site!!

So why wouldn't the person responsible for marketing XYZ Super Contester want to target contesters as potential customers?

Would this be the only way to come up with a list of active contesters? No, but it certainly wouldn't be that tough to do if you wanted... since the data is out there.

Now, I'd be happy if the data was a little more guarded. I've been told by one induhvidual that my "unfounded and irrational" fears are not worth further scrutiny. I'm not so sure about that...

What do you think?

[KC2UGV]

I think your 'fears' (A loaded word, I know, but I'm not the wordsmith like Albi) are very real ones. However, given the aversion to technology most hams have (Ironic, huh?) I don't see it being too much a problem.

I know PSKReporter does the same thing. I use PSKReporter as a tool to see if I'm heard, and my antenna patterns. I don't think you can download their report DB though.

But, in reality, anybody can do the same thing, and just not tell you about it. At least PropNet is open about it.

[WØTKX]

It's like using FaceBook. Surprise!

However, if the data was available cheaply (or free) it could be used for that elusive DX callsign lookup.
Putting that in the public domain would be helpful for a lot of people, maybe better than you know who?

Double edged sword, but doing that could be considered a public service.

[W3WN]

I think your 'fears' (A loaded word, I know, but I'm not the wordsmith like Albi) are very real ones. However, given the aversion to technology most hams have (Ironic, huh?) I don't see it being too much a problem.

I know PSKReporter does the same thing. I use PSKReporter as a tool to see if I'm heard, and my antenna patterns. I don't think you can download their report DB though.

But, in reality, anybody can do the same thing, and just not tell you about it. At least PropNet is open about it.
I think "fear" is too strong a word. Concerned would be more appropriate... but by trying to label my concerns as irrational fears, it makes them easier to dismiss without addressing them.

I also find it troubling that my replies on the subject are suddenly not going through the Contest reflector, but that's nothing new. All of the posts from non-moderators are, er, moderated. There is at least one who's been known to spike replies that he's not in favor of, even if they meet the official reflector guidelines. Skews the appearances on the reflector... when nothing contrary comes through, it's easy to believe everyone accepts things.

The irony in this, and several other recent, shall we say, directives, is that most of them are coming from the owners and operators of the multi-multi contest super stations. Who want all of these changes implemented because... they don't trust each other. And the rest of us, the vast majority of active contesters? Who cares about us? But that's another story.

[KJ3N]

I'm involved in a discussion on the Contesting reflector (as usual, I'm in the minority view).....

No! You? I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'd be lying. ;) Don't you ever get tired of :wall: ?


... although I disagree with the idea that just because our transmissions are "public" and can be overheard by anyone at any time, it follows that we have no privacy concerns.

Oh, I think you are certainly entitled to have privacy concerns. I'm just not on board that you have the right to expect any privacy, given the open nature of ham radio in general.


I've been told by one induhvidual that my "unfounded and irrational" fears are not worth further scrutiny. I'm not so sure about that...

Unfounded? I don't know that I'd go that far. Irrational? Bordering on it, IMHO.


What do you think?

You asked....

[W5GA]

I don't see this as any different than the super-check partial database in something like N1MM. In fact, that would probably be even more convenient from a marketing ability standpoint.

[W3WN]

I don't see this as any different than the super-check partial database in something like N1MM. In fact, that would probably be even more convenient from a marketing ability standpoint.
You're absolutely right, the SCP database would be as good or a better choice. And I'd be surprised if someone wasn't using it (or one of them, there are several)

I just got done with my quarterly "1 on 1" meeting with my boss. (And what a great way to spend my lunch break, online instead of eating something!) We got to talking about this... as a tangent to a general discussion on security for the company.

Long & short of it, he tells me that my concerns are valid. Problem is, the cat is probably already out of the bag. It's not that RBN is collecting and distributing the data... it's that this has probably been going on for decades, between the NSA and other Three Letter Acronym agencies (government and private contractors). So ultimately, it makes difference as it's already been or being done.

Which still doesn't make the distribution of the RBN database wise. "They" could get the data elsewhere... but why help them?