New Dutch Policepistol

[PA5COR]

http://nieuws.wegenerweb.nl/multimedia/archive/01712/politie_dienstwape_1712975h.jpg (http://nieuws.wegenerweb.nl/multimedia/archive/01712/politie_dienstwape_1712975b.jpg)

That's the one, Sig Sauer adapted for the Dutch police numbering 45000 of them for 800 Euros each.
Sig Sauer PPNL (Police Pistol Netherlands), a version of the SIG Sauer P250 DC designed for the Dutch police force.
It will replace the old Walther P5 and total replacement is ready at the end of 2013.

A new cartridge, called the 9x19mm NP (Netherlands Police), has been developed for their future service weapon. The 9mm NP features a 94 grain (6.1 gram) solid copper hollow point bullet with a plastic cap inserted into the hollow.



The plastic insert is to ensure that the hollow point does not get snagged with any cloth, jacket etc before striking the target, this ensures that the bullet expands properly upon impact. JHP often fail to expand properly when penetrating through thick clothes etc.


The requirements were these;

only permissible controls are trigger, magazine catch and hold open/slide release
may not have a safety catch
must be able to fire with the magazine removed
the portion of the trigger against which the finger rests during shooting may not consist of multiple parts
magazine capacity at least 15 rounds
trigger pressure must be the same from shot to shot, and the lighter the better
there must be at least 3 different sizes of grip or grip inserts available
the magazine catch must be accessible from both sides, or be able to be switched for left-handers
the slide release/hold open must be accessible from both sides
each weapon must contain an RFID chip containing the weapons details
caliber 9 x 19 mm
picatinny rail on the frame

Problem was that no off-the-shelf pistol fulfills these requirements so it had to be a new design and several manufacturers were in the race, at the end Sig-Sauer won with the above model and by 2013 all coppers will have their new side arms.


A new "Royal" orange plastic tip cartridge, called the 9x19mm Action NP (Netherlands Police), has been developed by RUAG (CH) for their new service weapon. The 9mm NP features a 94 grain (6.1 gram) solid copper hollow point bullet with a plastic cap inserted into the hollow. The primer of these cartridges has a special forensic additive to be able to identify the gun it was fired with.

http://www.security-technologynews.com/article/ruag-ammotec-presents-a-unique-family-of-9mm-police-ammunition-with-better-stopping-power-for-law-enforcement.html
More about the ammo.
1378 FPS out of a 3.9″ barrel equals 396 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

The new pistol is based on this one:
http://www.sigsauer.de/index.php?id=319&lang=en

[W3MIV]

Intelligent design. The very light bullet will possess deadly energy up close, but lose power and speed very quickly, thus reducing the potential for ricochets and collateral damage from stray shots. Damn Dutch are smarter'n they look. ;)

[PA5COR]

The police here has been experimenting a lot with the old Action Geschoss 1-5 generations.
Most firefights take place in densely populated area's and close by.
Good penetration of metal objects ( 5 plates i saw 1 mm thick) good penetration and almost no change in trajectory after glass windows etc.
The 9 mm round will expand to 15 mm in a body/ballistic gel.

I fired a few P5's and Glocks from the police here, the P5 is now really end of lifetime, worn, and outdated with only 8 rounds capacity, and for woman no change in grip, for smaller hands just too bulky.

If i remember correct, wasn't there a similar round produced in the USA?
Personally i'm no fan of ANY 9mm pistol/revolver, i prefer the .357 Magnum in my S&W686 or Desert Eagle.
But then, the demands of the police are different as mine...

I saw my stiff reloaded .357M rounds penetrate a 1/2 inch metal plate from the D.E.
Also solid copper 158 grain rounds.

We have a policewoman at our club, when she gets her's i'll report back after firing it ;)

[KC2UGV]

Intelligent design. The very light bullet will possess deadly energy up close, but lose power and speed very quickly, thus reducing the potential for ricochets and collateral damage from stray shots. Damn Dutch are smarter'n they look. ;)

It's that socialism at work :lol:

[W5GA]

If i remember correct, wasn't there a similar round produced in the USA?
Personally i'm no fan of ANY 9mm pistol/revolver, i prefer the .357 Magnum in my S&W686 or Desert Eagle.
But then, the demands of the police are different as mine...
Yes there was, but it's been quite a while back. It was tried with the bullets available at the time, but never really caught on as it was found lacking. With modern bullets, who knows.

[N8YX]

Might be an alternative to the M9/92FS setup which 'DSG has been contemplating...

[PA5COR]

I had the Baretta 92FS, sold it as fast as i could.....

[W5GA]

I had the Baretta 92FS, sold it as fast as i could.....
What didn't you like about it?

[W3MIV]

Beretta's 92, in its military iteration as the M9, has shown itself to be an exemplary military handgun. At Camp Perry, it is showing itself to be an exemplary target pistol, as well, though with modifications that would render it useless in the field (the same, in fact, goes for the venerable 1911A1).

I don't like the 9mm NATO cartridge. In that pistol, I prefer the .40S&W.

[PA5COR]

Within 1500 rounds the trigger spring broke, the firing pin spring went south, and i had the ramp polished to stop faiiliures of loading several different types of bullets.
Might have been exemplary, but it was enough for me, getting an good offer after the repairs i ditched it.
Besides, i already had 2 fine working handguns, i completed the Desert Eagle and the S&W 686 with a Walther GSP in .22 LR.
The S&W revolvers are quite good, i had the 629 Classic DX factory tuned .44 Magnum, and won a gaggle of prizes with it.
Sold it to my brother in law, he was crazy for it, and i needed another challenge, what became the Beretta 92FS.....:roll:.

All the calibers exept of course the .22 LR are reloads, all very carefully within specs, i never dick around reloading, nor with shooting.
Only high quality components are used reloading, i reload for being able to adjust for accuracy, not to save money.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

First off, 9X19 is nothing new.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum
But as far as the pistol goes, a disaster in the making.
It has no safety, and a light trigger pull?
All the rest, RFID, chemical bond, that type of thing, can be added to pretty much any weapon.
The trick of old was to fabricate a firing pin that was grooved at the striking surface.
Between the ballistics proper and the unique signature of the firing pin both the bullet and casing could be identified.

[PA5COR]

Police here don't pull and wave their pistol at any time they stop people Rudy, so stop making assumptions.
When an officer draws his weapon it needs to be serious, ( Been in armed Service myself here, Her Majesties Customs) and we have the same drill as the cops here have.
Police have to certify 6 times a year for the gun, will get extra training when they get the new pistol, and will be damned sure there is no safety to forget in the heat of an altercation if they have to fire.
Revolvers don't come with safety catches as well...
Don't pick out on some demands, the new gun has to fulfil ALL demands as stated by our Police.
Yep, we know the parabellum is not new, I've been a owner of guns and avid shooter most of my life, carried guns in Service, as did my Father who was for 40 years long a cop.

I don't think you can teach me anything new here, after reading some of your posts.
I go through 8 - 10.000 rounds a year here, revolver, pistols Carbine and rifles.
Goodbye ;)

[kc7jty]

It's a DA Rudy Poody.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

99% of all accidental discharge incidents happen when the officer does not have his hand on the weapon.
Again, 99% of all AD incidents happen without a finger on the weapon.
I was in a car taking my driving test in Texas when I was a first had witness to an AD.
The driving exam was being done with a DPS trooper who got his holster snagged on the seatbelt and tried to pull it free while seated and not releasing the seatbelt.
This was a car with the seatbelts mounted to the door so you would not need to attach it, a motor would simply move it out of the way.
The second AD I saw was when I was working jail guard/bus driver.
The guard was securing his weapon in the lockbox when it went off, no one has ever come up with a good explanation as to what happened.
But, the weapon was inside the lockbox and discharged as the door was being closed.
The 1911 has several safety features as a direct response to the number of accidents with revolvers, perhaps overkill, but who knows?
A single action can be safer than a double action as there is one more step prior to firing.
But what do I know, only that every current military firearm has a safety on it.
Even the pump action riot gun has a safety.
M-203 grenade launcher?
As unlikely as it would be for that thing to be carried loaded, it has a safety.
Even the flare gun has a safety!

[W3MIV]

Bullshit.

[NQ6U]

Bullshit.

From Rudy?? Nah...

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

The Dutch pistol does have a safety, it is electronic.
What is not clear is that there is no "Safety catch" and what that means.
The pistol does have a manual slide lock as well as the electronic interlock.

[PA5COR]

I'll try to explain.....
Requirements:

only permissible controls are trigger, magazine catch and hold open/slide release
may not have a safety catch
must be able to fire with the magazine removed
the portion of the trigger against which the finger rests during shooting may not consist of multiple parts
magazine capacity at least 15 rounds
trigger pressure must be the same from shot to shot, and the lighter the better
there must be at least 3 different sizes of grip or grip inserts available
the magazine catch must be accessible from both sides, or be able to be switched for left-handers
the slide release/hold open must be accessible from both sides
each weapon must contain an RFID chip containing the weapons details
caliber 9 x 19 mm
picatinny rail on the frame

The RFID chip is no electronic lock, it just holds the data of the gun so it can be read out in case it was stolen/lost and is traceable by other means as the serial number, additional data can be put into the chip like the details from the officer that carries the weapon, the police station etc....and can be read out from yards distance if need be....take a guess for what.
RFID:
Radio-frequency identification (RFID) is a technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology) that uses communication via radio waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_waves) to exchange data between a reader and an electronic tag attached to an object, for the purpose of identification and tracking. Some tags can be read from several meters away and beyond the line of sight of the reader. The application of bulk reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_reading) enables an almost parallel reading of tags.

No, it does NOT have a safety catch, or electronic or otherwise in the trigger or whatever means.'
It can be fired with a round in the chamber even if the magazine is removed, or an crook gets the magazine out in a struggle, the officer still can fire one shot at him.
The new holsters will cover the trigger and trigger guard so that no accidental discharges are possible if the weapon is snagged.
No safety means that officers in the heat of an altercation cannot forget to release the safety catch and the weapon does not fire when that is needed.
And yes, it does happen....
Mandatory training and firing is checked by safety officers, failing to perform means no pistol desk work and more time on the training lanes till the safety officer is satisfied you can go back on the street safely with the gun.
Minimal training courses 6 times a year, police is allowed to use it in the shooting club if he/she is a member.

Again, a lot of assumptions without base.

I've been in the position i had to use my weapon as Officer, not something i like, but you DO react different in that situation as being relaxed on the firing range happily popping off at a stationary target that does not form a threat or fires back at you.
Even serious training in the movie screened firing range where you get all kinds of situations thrown at you to react on will not completely train you for a real situation.
I've been there, done it, got the full investigation and came out good.

But it is a life changing event.

[W7XF]

Cowthief... hang it up. Your statements have NO basis.

[kc7jty]

Has the Glock two piece trigger been known to restrict firing in other than freak incidents?

[PA5COR]

Not as far i know, the Dutch police have 250 of them in use.
The 2 piece trigger/safety system can be snagged if carried in an open holster, here police have an holster completely covering the trigger and trigger guard.
The Glock is an very reliable pistol, but does not fulfil the new demands the police asks from the new pistol.

For us as self defence or plinking at targets, it is accurate, and reliable.
But then in the USA you have a lot of good weapon makers that have a line of ( cheaper) and high quality reliable pistols to fill that niche.

Real high quality European target pistol is the Swiss made Hammerli P225S, costing an arm and leg...
The P 210 ain't bad either ;)
Ammo, Geco, RWS, Dynamit Nobel Lapua. most are merged now.( RWS Nobel)

Before all hell broke out in the Balkan we used Prvi Partisan ammo, not for shooting, for the brass, cheap as chips and high quality.
European 9mm rounds can be quite hot, so check with your gun for that.
RWS also has a steel jacketed copper clad bullet, It's lead, then steel, then copper. Stick a magnet on it, they are called GMCS bullets (gilding metal clad steel.
Might be illegal in the USA, here no problem, just watch your backstop...:mrgreen:

[PA5COR]

Dang double post.....

[n2ize]

More violation of peoples rights :( Police should be disarmed and nonviolently trained.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I never said the RFID chip has anything to do with the safety.
What I said was that it is electronic.
In the Texas prison system there is something very close to what this pistol has but it is more mechanical.

[PA5COR]

Rudy, give it up.

[W5GA]

Has the Glock two piece trigger been known to restrict firing in other than freak incidents?
Of all the failure modes a Glock has (and like any other pistol, there are a few), I've never heard of this being one of them. Broken springs and the like, sure.

[W3MIV]

The Glocks may be ugly (and they are butt ugly), but they are among the safest and most functional pistols out there. Other manufacturers are moving to a similar trigger/striker mechanism because it is positive yet extremely resistant to accidental discharge. The Glocks are amazingly resistant to malfunction from dirt and grime, as well.