I tried to like Ubuntu...

[N8YX]

Background:

There was a spare Intel 845-based P4 setup with a dead PSU floating around the shack, and I figured it could be set up to dual-boot XP and some other OS. After configuring a fellow ham's new Gateway DX4840 with Windows 7 and Ubuntu 10.10, I figured I would give the old system a whirl.

PSU and XP installation went great. As did Ubuntu. The falling-down occurred with dualhead supprt. The add-in video card is a Radeon series and the mobo has an i815-compatible GPU built into it.

Try as I might, I absolutely could not get dual monitor support to work properly - and I'm no stranger to xorg.conf. X server lockups galore followed me at every turn.

Ubuntu 9.04 was tried - it allowed both monitors to come up but there were serious stability issues. When I upgraded the components to their 9.10 versions, a new Radeon driver was installed...and elegantly crashed the system at every boot.

I downloaded the latest Debian distro and overwrote the Ubuntu installation. Once I finished the installation, both monitors would come up but it still wasn't perfect - and Xinerama (desktop spanning) is no longer supported.

Playing around with virtual monitors and window positioning finally got the thing to work. I don't have "spanning" support - each monitor supports its own desktop, and no objects can be dragged from one to the other. But at least it's usable.

Next project is to get a newer mobo/CPU/GPU and try this experiment again - hopefully with better results.

[KC2UGV]

Yeah, Ubuntu doesn't like some video cards. A lot. I have one PC (I think is an 845 with a DVI out port). Ubuntu 10.04 does nothing. Wont get past GRUB. Went back to 9.01, boots fine.

[n6hcm]

PSU and XP installation went great. As did Ubuntu. The falling-down occurred with dualhead supprt. The add-in video card is a Radeon series and the mobo has an i815-compatible GPU built into it.

did you try getting a driver directly from ati? they don't seem to play nice with the linux distributors.

[N8YX]

did you try getting a driver directly from ati? they don't seem to play nice with the linux distributors.
Henry,

No. I used the Radeon driver which was included in the updates. This version comes bundled "standard" with 10.x.

The older one - in 9.04 - works. Many other folk are complaining about the updated version from what I've been able to gather.

[ad4mg]

Henry,

No. I used the Radeon driver which was included in the updates. This version comes bundled "standard" with 10.x.

The older one - in 9.04 - works. Many other folk are complaining about the updated version from what I've been able to gather.
Not using dual monitors, but when I installed Ubuntu 10.04 on my son's machine with an integrated ATI chipset, I also installed the Radeon driver, which was troublesome. After a couple of restarts, and when I was just about to put 9.10 on his machine, the damn video started working correctly. It has ever since.

[KG4CGC]

FWIW, I've given up on ATI altogether. I was a fan of them in early 00s. The functionality eventually fails (Windows Updates???) and I think it is all driver issues.
Today I'll stick with Nvidia offerings, mainly G-Force GT series. I'm sure there are better but these have been hassle free for me so far (5 years) keeping in mind my main uses are photo and video graphics and rendering. On a side note, using the newer monitors, the digital graphics for TV and other HD media is awesome.

Just saying. lulz.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I run Ubuntu, but it is very important that I Not upgrade.
For some reason the Ubuntu people decided to push the netbook upgrade on all netbooks.
My Dell Vo0stro A90 came with Ubuntu, but before any netbook edition came out, so things just do not work correctly after an upgrade.

[W1GUH]

I don't know which version of Ubunt\u I"m running (how do I tell?), but it's always been very, very nice with the nVidea graphics in this laptop. The graphics have never been an issue including the other night when I hooked up another monitor and Ubuntu was, actually, BETTER than windows in getting the other monitor set up. So...go figure?

[ad4mg]

I don't know which version of Ubunt\u I"m running (how do I tell?), but it's always been very, very nice with the nVidea graphics in this laptop. The graphics have never been an issue including the other night when I hooked up another monitor and Ubuntu was, actually, BETTER than windows in getting the other monitor set up. So...go figure?

In a terminal, run: cat /etc/issue

--or--

from the Gnome desktop: System --> About Ubuntu

[NQ6U]

Or, open a terminal window and type in : rm -r /*

(Just kidding! Don't do that!)

[N8YX]

Or, open a terminal window and type in : rm -r /*
Doesn't that command only work with Windoze? :chin:

[W1GUH]

Or, open a terminal window and type in : rm -r /*

(Just kidding! Don't do that!)

"Wise guy, eh?" "Why I oughta..."

Well...just when I'm feeling really good about Ubuntu I installed the latest changes.

Gronk. Now I don't have Linux at all. Got some sort of error while installing, clicked OK....now it's in la-la land. Get a nice screen flashing random shapes. Oh, well, I'm sure I'll find out what to do on the web sometime. Linux is a great time sink!!!

[mw0uzo]

"Wise guy, eh?" "Why I oughta..."

Well...just when I'm feeling really good about Ubuntu I installed the latest changes.

Gronk. Now I don't have Linux at all. Got some sort of error while installing, clicked OK....now it's in la-la land. Get a nice screen flashing random shapes. Oh, well, I'm sure I'll find out what to do on the web sometime. Linux is a great time sink!!!

You need Debian Squeeze thats out on the 5th Feb. No annoying updates that trash your system.

[n2ize]

Ubuntu... is the reason i use Fedora. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[W1GUH]

I never looked good in red....can't use fedora.

[KC2UGV]

I never looked good in red....can't use fedora.

When you need it to work:
http://www.it-networks.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/red_hat_logo_big.jpg

[w6tmi]

Horrible of me I know, I've never run ubuntu...

I just REALLY can't stand the name! rofl!

[W2NAP]

fedora would never ever work on this box.

I do have ubuntu 10.10 on here.

ubuntu 8,10-9.10 gives fits on this box. 10.04 cleaned it up 10.10 did improve.

cept the wifi card I have. seems the native *nix drivers just fucking suck ass. with the native rtl8187 best i could get was connection for a few mins at most getting maybe 5kb/s download.
blacklist the rtl8187 and ndiswrapper its solid 300-500 kbs down.

[n6hcm]

fedora would never ever work on this box.

why not? (i don't like fedora because it changes so often ... but what about fedora would make it not work on your system?)

[W2NAP]

why not? (i don't like fedora because it changes so often ... but what about fedora would make it not work on your system?)

hard lockups. pretty much never get past slapping the cd in the drive.

[n2ize]

I never looked good in red....can't use fedora.

If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. if you can run Ubuntu you can run fedora.

[W1GUH]

If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. if you can run Ubuntu you can run fedora.

At least for now I'm linux/unix-free! It was fun to have linux for a while and be able to cat, more, ls, and grep at home (Wow! There were some glorius x-rated nights there (the 'x' in "unix" or "linux"). But the fact is, the price tag of throwing whole days into the time sink was way too high, especialy since linux doesn't have any functionality that doesn't exist in Windows (barf).

And when a so-called "update" updated linux to a complete shit-the-bed crash....uh uh.

Besides, the one thing that I used most with linux, the built-in c/c++ command line compiler, can be done in Windows...why bother with another operating system?

At least in the two+ days I threw down the time sink hole getting linux to boot and run, I managed to luck out and wind up with GRUB on a DVD so my system didn't get trashed to not even running Windows. Time to quit while I'm "ahead."

[KC2UGV]

Wow... I think you ran into a bad mobo or something. I've not had a *nix machine die on me due to an upgrade for about 9 years now. I mean, Ubuntu installs are about as easy as they come. Choose some date/time/lang settings, tell it if you want to blow away the drive, or do a side-by-side install, and 20 minutes later you have a new linux install.

[W1GUH]

Wow... I think you ran into a bad mobo or something. I've not had a *nix machine die on me due to an upgrade for about 9 years now. I mean, Ubuntu installs are about as easy as they come. Choose some date/time/lang settings, tell it if you want to blow away the drive, or do a side-by-side install, and 20 minutes later you have a new linux install.

How much do I wish it would have been like that this time. What happened is I started the update (little drunk...but then, I'm only clicking & Ubuntu has been so good). While it was chugging along (and some time into the effort) I got a error pop-up. But I didn't bother actually reading it...just clicked OK. (Ubuntu's good, right?) So it goes along again, and finally, when the screen hadn't updated for a loooooooong time I shut down. And that was the end.

Could be I shut down prematurely...but I still call that Ubuntu's fault because any action that's going to take THAT long should have been brought to the user's attention.

[KC2UGV]

How much do I wish it would have been like that this time. What happened is I started the update (little drunk...but then, I'm only clicking & Ubuntu has been so good). While it was chugging along (and some time into the effort) I got a error pop-up. But I didn't bother actually reading it...just clicked OK. (Ubuntu's good, right?) So it goes along again, and finally, when the screen hadn't updated for a loooooooong time I shut down. And that was the end.

Could be I shut down prematurely...but I still call that Ubuntu's fault because any action that's going to take THAT long should have been brought to the user's attention.

Again, I'd say hardware error coupled with not reading the prompt... I mean, the prompt could have been a dist upgrade. Again, I've haven't had an upgrade kill a Linux box in quite a few years.

[W1GUH]

Again, I'd say hardware error coupled with not reading the prompt... I mean, the prompt could have been a dist upgrade. Again, I've haven't had an upgrade kill a Linux box in quite a few years.

You in IT? You've got the "blame the hardware and user" bit down pat!

[NQ6U]

If you can drive a car you can fly a plane.

Speaking as a former pilot, I have to disagree with this sentiment.

[KC2UGV]

You in IT? You've got the "blame the hardware and user" bit down pat!

Yes, I am. And I done a whole lot of Linux schtick, from netbooks to 8U servers. An upgrade with Ubuntu that's been interrupted could break the package system, or could even leave some packages half-installed, none of that would trash a machine. Even a half-installed X would just get you a garbled screen with text consoles still there, and a bad kernel, you'd still have a working GRUB to boot into a previous kernel.

I'll hazard the upgraded was upgrading X or the kernel, and the machine had a hiccup during a package install. Most likely a RAM error. I'd run MEMCHECK against the machine that died during upgrades.

Windows installs, Linux installs, UNIX installs or upgrades push the machine past it's normal use cycles, and are the first thing to break when a hardware issue creeps up.

[W1GUH]

Cool!!!! C'mon over and make my linux work!

[n2ize]

You in IT? You've got the "blame the hardware and user" bit down pat!

Well, you said that you got an error prompt that popped up and you didn't bother to read it so... yes... that does sound like user error. I mean what do you expect to happen if the system gives you an error message and you ignore it ? I've done dozens upon dozens of Linux installs, dating back to when Linux was hard to install, installs were al text based, configurations were all done manually, and kernels had to be custom compiled to run your specific hardware and in all those instances I never had a single install or upgrade that failed. Of course I always made sure I paid attention to any prompts that appeared and made sure I read and understood what they were trying to tell me before moving on to the next step.

I'm not trying to rail on you but do you have any idea what the error prompt said or why your install/upgrade failed ? It could be something very simple.But if you don't read the prompt you'll never know that...correct ?

If I try to do programming but I never bother reading the compiler error messages it is likely my program will fail.

[W1GUH]

Well, you said that you got an error prompt that popped up and you didn't bother to read it so... yes... that does sound like user error. I mean what do you expect to happen if the system gives you an error message and you ignore it ? I've done dozens upon dozens of Linux installs, dating back to when Linux was hard to install, installs were al text based, configurations were all done manually, and kernels had to be custom compiled to run your specific hardware and in all those instances I never had a single install or upgrade that failed. Of course I always made sure I paid attention to any prompts that appeared and made sure I read and understood what they were trying to tell me before moving on to the next step.

I'm not trying to rail on you but do you have any idea what the error prompt said or why your install/upgrade failed ? It could be something very simple.But if you don't read the prompt you'll never know that...correct ?

If I try to do programming but I never bother reading the compiler error messages it is likely my program will fail.

Get outta here. If it was windows, there would have been a restore point. And besides, the popup I got had no other alternative but "OK". There was no "cancel" button, or "restore" button or anything. Just one window with OK. So, I guess I should just let it sit there forever? I'd probably still have that same screen.

What apologists for a bit-player OS!

But...I'm done with it.

[n2ize]

Get outta here. If it was windows, there would have been a restore point. And besides, the popup I got had no other alternative but "OK". There was no "cancel" button, or "restore" button or anything. Just one window with OK. So, I guess I should just let it sit there forever? I'd probably still have that same screen.

What apologists for a bit-player OS!


Nobody is apologizing for anything. Although all operating systems are "bit players", You didn't bother to read the prompt. Perhaps there was a way to bail out or restore. I have done numerous installs where an error comes up and I've been able to bail out. But you didn't read the prompt so I guess we'll never know. So now you are railing on people who are offering advice. That's rich.



But...I'm done with it.

I'm perfectly okay with that.

You also ignored UGV's advice that it could have been a hardware issue. I had a problem with an install on a laptop a while back where I couldn't seem to get the native wifi drivers to work after a new install . No matter what I did they would work for an indefinite time and then freeze up. I played with it for days, analyzing every error message, reading advice, emailing developers and experts. I even went into the source code myself and tried making some minor mods and recompiling and still... the same problem. So, I tried to do a new install. The install worked but the wifi still sucked and then viola', the hard drive crapped out. I replaced the hard drive, reinstalled and viola'... everything worked fine. Somehow my failing hard drive was causing the bizarre array of issues I was having. It;s been working like a champ ever since.

Oh and I've had several issues with Windows where upgrades failed abruptly and left me with a broken system. Each time there was a hardware issue.

Did you try to redo the upgrade ? Did you do an upgrade or an install ? Generally an upgrade is non-destructive and won't destroy your /home, /usr/local.. How is your disc partitioned ? I generally advise against one big partition for everything. I generally like to separate partitions containing /home, /usr/local and various media, data directories so that I can do an non-destructive installation. In other words in a worst case scenario if the install or upgrade really goes bezerk I still have essential data... in addition to backups. That way i can get back to where I was in the event I need to roll back. BTW I follow the same procedure regardless of whether I am upgrading or installing Windows, Linux, BSD, Unix, etc.

[n2ize]

Speaking as a former pilot, I have to disagree with this sentiment.

Well, Mason Adams made that claim some time back in the 1960's.

[NQ6U]

Well, Mason Adams made that claim some time back in the 1960's.

I don't know who Mason Adams is, but he's wrong. You pretty much have to unlearn a lot the instincts you use when driving a car while learning to fly an airplane.

[N8YX]

I don't know who Mason Adams is...
The phrase "Save the Bales!" might jog your memory a bit WRT Mr. Adams. He was a very bad boy... :whistle:

[mw0uzo]

@w1guh

It took me several attempts and about a year to completely move over to using Linux all the time. Don't bail out now - you're missing all the fun before its started. Stop flaming and just do it :P You broke it, so what? Its easy to break Windows too. Just try again. There will come a point where you wonder how you ever put up with Windows.

It's not bullshit either. If Linux were a pile of crap, we'd tell you to stick with Windows.

[KC2UGV]

Cool!!!! C'mon over and make my linux work!

Don't need to actually go there. Can you burn an ISO (I would think so, since you already tried an ubuntu install)? If so, I'll upload an ISO image all set to go. Will you blow away the current OS install, or a side-by-side?

[ad4mg]

@w1guh

It took me several attempts and about a year to completely move over to using Linux all the time. Don't bail out now - you're missing all the fun before its started. Stop flaming and just do it :P You broke it, so what? Its easy to break Windows too. Just try again. There will come a point where you wonder how you ever put up with Windows.

It's not bullshit either. If Linux were a pile of crap, we'd tell you to stick with Windows.

+1!

Linux has a learning curve, and operator error is inevitable. I hosed numerous slackware installs and became totally disgusted with one of their help groups because of the smarmy replies. I found Ubuntu on my own, stuck with it, and I wouldn't do without it now. It took me over a year to get really good at configuration and trouble shooting the OS.

The best 'feature' of any Linux distro is the price. I find it rather satisfying that it cost me absolutely nothing to hose a few Linux installations. For Micr$oft, it's going to set you back a minimum of $130 to play. And that's OEM crap, or worse, and upgrade only version.

[n6hcm]

i just put the latest ubuntu on an old laptop (an ibm t41, 512mb ram, 40gb hd, 1.6 processor) and it works pretty well. i can't get high-bandwidth youtube but everything else (including ordinary youtube) seems to work fine. for $100 or so i could put a new battery and a bit more ram and it'd be perfect. nice light form factor, too. doesn't run blazingly hot.

[mw0uzo]

The best 'feature' of any Linux distro is the price. I find it rather satisfying that it cost me absolutely nothing to hose a few Linux installations. For Micr$oft, it's going to set you back a minimum of $130 to play. And that's OEM crap, or worse, and upgrade only version.

Yes the price. Free. For what it can do, that's amazing. Now I wonder what the hell I was doing for all those years trying to avoid WGA.



i just put the latest ubuntu on an old laptop (an ibm t41, 512mb ram, 40gb hd, 1.6 processor) and it works pretty well. i can't get high-bandwidth youtube but everything else (including ordinary youtube) seems to work fine. for $100 or so i could put a new battery and a bit more ram and it'd be perfect. nice light form factor, too. doesn't run blazingly hot.


Have you tried slimming it down by installing a CLI version and bare packages for xorg, gnome or whatever? It looks nicer and runs faster. Bare gnome will run nice on that computer. I've got a slimline Debian 6 install guide brewing, will share when its done :)

[KG4CGC]

Wasn't Ubuntu supposed to be the Linux answer to Windows?

[W2NAP]

idk. Ubuntu is good. really it is. specially for new users.

I do like debian.. but debian dont like this box for some reason. but had tons of luck on lots of laptops

slackware i think is great, but not for a new user

[ad4mg]

Wasn't Ubuntu supposed to be the Linux answer to Windows?
Well, it's as 'mainstream' as any Linux distribution out there.

If you have a computer with hardware that has Linux drivers out of the box, Ubuntu will install in a 'plug and play' fashion just like Winders.

I have Ubuntu on 4 machines here. My laptop - video issues after install because of SiS chipset. My Acer desktop - no isssues whatsoever, ran great with the default configuration. My machine with an Asus MB - almost flawless, has an issue with the ACPI, doesn't like standby. An old Hewlett Packard P-III machine running my jnos packet station runs Ubuntu 9.04 just fine.

Ubuntu is awful close to being as user friendly as Windows, regarding the installation. They have a ways to go to simplify file sharing. I have no problem with it, but some script file editing (/etc/samba/smb.conf) is necessary to create a share as wide open as a windows share.

[KC2UGV]

Well, it's as 'mainstream' as any Linux distribution out there.

If you have a computer with hardware that has Linux drivers out of the box, Ubuntu will install in a 'plug and play' fashion just like Winders.

I have Ubuntu on 4 machines here. My laptop - video issues after install because of SiS chipset. My Acer desktop - no isssues whatsoever, ran great with the default configuration. My machine with an Asus MB - almost flawless, has an issue with the ACPI, doesn't like standby. An old Hewlett Packard P-III machine running my jnos packet station runs Ubuntu 9.04 just fine.

Ubuntu is awful close to being as user friendly as Windows, regarding the installation. They have a ways to go to simplify file sharing. I have no problem with it, but some script file editing (/etc/samba/smb.conf) is necessary to create a share as wide open as a windows share.

I'll argue that Linux has a better install process than Winderz...

With Ubuntu, rarely do I need to hunt down drivers. Winderz, it's guaranteed I'll spend another hour hunting drivers.

[n6hcm]

Have you tried slimming it down by installing a CLI version and bare packages for xorg, gnome or whatever? It looks nicer and runs faster. Bare gnome will run nice on that computer. I've got a slimline Debian 6 install guide brewing, will share when its done :)

no, because i don't want to do that. i want to have the better functionality. for the money it's not a bad deal (i could, no doubt, find a way to mooch DIMMs off people who have upgraded their systems, and i don't really need the battery, so i could do it for lower cost if i wanted to).

[W1GUH]

Uncle!!! Uncle!!! Uncle!!!!!

Sounds like knocking linux here ( and there's lots to knock) is like making a liberal comment on the 'zed!

[KC2UGV]

Uncle!!! Uncle!!! Uncle!!!!!

Sounds like knocking linux here ( and there's lots to knock) is like making a liberal comment on the 'zed!

I'm not trying to berate you here. My offer still stands, though. Give me the specs of your install, and I'll make an auto-install ISO for you :) You even get to choose what distro :) Pop it in, come back 20 minutes later and you have a clean install.

[W1GUH]

Thanks, but no thanks.

[n2ize]

Uncle!!! Uncle!!! Uncle!!!!!

Sounds like knocking linux here ( and there's lots to knock) is like making a liberal comment on the 'zed!

Sounds more like people here with good expertise and many years of experience are trying to offer sound advice. If you're not interested in advice then why not say so, then at least people won't waste their time offering it. If you expect people to join you in a Linux bashing session it's probably not going to happen as many of the users here have had good experiences with Linux. I'm sorry to hear that you're experiences were not the same. However, you did say you didn't bother to read the error prompt which may have provided a clue as to what went wrong. If you were upgrading from a CD it could have been something as simple as a read error from the optical disc (happens often with optical discs) in which case simply cleaning the disc and rerunning the upgrade probably would have fixed it. Or, if you were upgrading via the Internet it could have been something as simple as a network glitch. You also never said what stage of the upgrade you were in. But, we'll never know now. I've never came across a failed upgrade that could not be salvaged.

[W1GUH]

Read my lips...linux offers no more functionality than I get with windows, in fact, it offers less because it's just not supported like mainstream Windows is. I don't do home computing to be hunched over a computer pondering the latest lapse of programming/documentation from others hunched over the screen making "improvements" or other "gee-whiz" fancy stuff. Got that? There's certain "warm-fuzzies" that come along with "beating the system" and not supporting MS...but the cost of those "warm-fuzzies" is way, way too steep. And, also, as it turns out MS has recently released Visual Studio Express 10.0 c++ for free. I know of nothing on the linux/unix side that offers a more efficient tool for either c++ or c# programming. It's true that command line vi/g++ programming can be extremely efficient under pressure, but I don't do programming under pressure at home.

But the bigger lesson here, other than linux is not for yours truly in a recreational computing environment is how ferciously and rabidly linux people will defend "their baby." It's breathtaking!

Not rejecting all the kind and generous offers of assitance -- that's one of the great hallmarks of the unix/linux environent in that lab -- for any other reason than after I spend a day at work doing that I don't want to do more of it at home. Windows lets me see....ah....all I want to see on the web (:bbh:) without being concerned about, "Gee, am I going to have to go through yet another search to find the software I need to do whatever?" I can just do it and everything's there built-in.

[KC2UGV]

Read my lips...linux offers no more functionality than I get with windows, in fact, it offers less because it's just not supported like mainstream Windows is.

See, now you are getting under my skin there. GNU/Linux offers MUCH MORE functionality than Windows does. Built-in firewall, built-in IPv6, built-in drivers for every file system known to man (Yes, it supports TR-DOS disks), built-in screen sharing, built-in remote desktop, ad infinitum.

And yes, you can even manage your books, with a free package that rivals MAS200 in abilities.


I don't do home computing to be hunched over a computer pondering the latest lapse of programming/documentation from others hunched over the screen making "improvements" or other "gee-whiz" fancy stuff.

lolwut?


Got that? There's certain "warm-fuzzies" that come along with "beating the system" and not supporting MS...but the cost of those "warm-fuzzies" is way, way too steep. And, also, as it turns out MS has recently released Visual Studio Express 10.0 c++ for free. I know of nothing on the linux/unix side that offers a more efficient tool for either c++ or c# programming. It's true that command line vi/g++ programming can be extremely efficient under pressure, but I don't do programming under pressure at home.

Eclipse? Mono? Emacs? C# is a push, because it's a proprietary programming language but Mono is a great almost-drop-in-replacement for any of the #'s (All of the #'s are proprietary languages, and not industry standard).


But the bigger lesson here, other than linux is not for yours truly in a recreational computing environment is how ferciously and rabidly linux people will defend "their baby." It's breathtaking!


I'll give you that. Linux might not be for you. However, it works wonderfully for my children in a purely recreational environment. Sometimes, I SSH into their computers to run updates, but that's it.

When Linux users start getting "rabid" is when a person who is self-admittedly clueless starts berating a system for being "crap" and "messing up my computer", and rejecting (In some cases) years of experience with many different OS's.



Not rejecting all the kind and generous offers of assitance -- that's one of the great hallmarks of the unix/linux environent in that lab -- for any other reason than after I spend a day at work doing that I don't want to do more of it at home. Windows lets me see....ah....all I want to see on the web (:bbh:) without being concerned about, "Gee, am I going to have to go through yet another search to find the software I need to do whatever?" I can just do it and everything's there built-in.

I'm not sure what software you'd have to google to find in order to browse the web. I mean, the web is built on Linux... A stock Ubuntu install comes with a very competent web browser (In fact, a de facto standard one) that renders 95% of the web content out there with no issue, and with a single visit to a website will have 99.9999% of all content on the web viewable.

You will not fare that well with Windows. IE7,8,9(?) is just as broken and lagging in their support of web standards. And you still have to visit the site (Adobe) to get Flash viewable (About 5% of web content out there).

The mistake you are making is comparing an OEM windows install, with everything pre-loaded, to a base install of GNU/Linux. A better comparison is a base Windows install vs. a base Linux install. On that, Linux has Windows beat, since Windows does not pre-load:
* An Office Suite
* Email Client
* Media player w/codecs
* A complete "App Store"
* 3D Desktop effects (If there is hardware support)
* Drivers for common hardware

The offer I made you of the ISO would have had all common packages pre-loaded. Yes, even Flash (I can do that since I'm not selling the product). Updates would just be done in the background if you like, or no updates at all.

So, yes, you can see why some of the Linux users on here will get "rabid" about what you are saying. You are comparing apples and oranges. Not apples and apples.

[mw0uzo]

But the bigger lesson here, other than linux is not for yours truly in a recreational computing environment is how ferciously and rabidly linux people will defend "their baby." It's breathtaking!

Interesting that you should feel such insight with such little personal information in this thread. We know our choice of OS is just an OS, a tool to do whatever you want to do. We know that OS has both positive and negative aspects. We know both OSs well and so can give you reliable advice.

Also, Corey's last post is spot on. +1

I spent 10 years programming C# using VS and think its a great language and development environment. There is Mono and Monodevelop which are very good indeed. If you're looking for an alternative to VS in terms of functionality and polish you won't find one. But there are some IDEs that are well on their way to being excellent. Personally I have fallen back to using C as I prefer lightweight programming and use a relatively simple IDE called Codeblocks. It just works for me.

[N8YX]

On the other side of the coin:

When installed in dual-boot fashion (alongside Win7-64) on a Gateway 4840, Ubuntu 10.10 performs flawlessly.

I got hold of a few VM images (Knoppix 6.4.3, BackTrack 4.0, the OWASP Austin Terrier release) and set them up on my friend's system so they'll run under VM Player 3.1.3.

Everything is supported virtually, including the WiFi adapter and the sound card.

I'm looking at building something similar to the DX, throwing at least 16GB RAM into the thing and equipping it with enough video hardware that three guest OSes can be run concurrently in full-screen mode. On another system I'm looking at using an "ix" platform as the host OS then throwing a bunch of Windows images on top of it.

[mw0uzo]

One IDE that has impressed me recently is QT Creator. Linux/Windows/MacOS, libraries covering pretty much every function required. Very professional look too.

[KC2UGV]

One IDE that has impressed me recently is QT Creator. Linux/Windows/MacOS, libraries covering pretty much every function required. Very professional look too.

The only reason I haven't tried QT Creator is because I abhor QT. But, since I have all the dev libs installed from compiling Xastir, I should give it a whirl :)

[n2ize]

The only reason I haven't tried QT Creator is because I abhor QT. But, since I have all the dev libs installed from compiling Xastir, I should give it a whirl :)

I like Qt. I enjoy it.

[w6tmi]

I don't know who Mason Adams is, but he's wrong. You pretty much have to unlearn a lot the instincts you use when driving a car while learning to fly an airplane.

I never could figure out how to parallel park an airplane gracefully.

[w6tmi]

So, eh... guy doesn't want to use linux, don't use linux... lol.. So someone says it doesnt do as much... Ok, I will finish the sentence it doesnt do as much FOR THEM..

Wow... I dont understand the in your face with linux attitude. lol.

Anyway, 'guh

If, as you mentioned, you like to use the occasional "linux" type command, install Cygwin on your windows machine and be done.

It's an API that lets you do a bunch of "Unix-ish" stuff on your Windahs system.

In my case I use rsync to sync my email, music and other crap to my storage box.
Also if I need an X server to get into some management crap that's on a sparc or linux it's good for that.

It is what it is, I like windows as a user OS. It just works better. I like linux as a service. It just has more for that.

Been doing this enough I dont have to do the epeen thing.. lol

Enjoy your computer whatever you use it for..

[n2ize]

I find Windows to be a great system. Too great for my needs so I hardly ever use it.

[W3MIV]

Speaking as a former pilot, I have to disagree with this sentiment.

It's a hard lesson to learn the hard way. ;)

[W3MIV]

This morning, I just upgraded Ubuntu 10.04 to 10.10 on this cheap-ass Compaq laptop I am using. AMD 64 Athx2 of the meanest cross-section, a mere giggle-byte of RAM and an nVidia video system on the mobo. Works like a champ. This is the very first computer that I have had on which Linux -- in my case Ubuntu -- has worked without a glitch.

I use Win on three computers -- two Vista and one Seven. The two Vistas are desktops, one AMD and one Intel; the Seven a laptop.

I find that Ubuntu works faster than Windows on this cheap laptop than did the V Prem that was installed on it when new a couple of years ago. As a non-geek, it is often difficult to transition from one system to the other, so my experience with Linux is limited to occasional fishing forays just for the halibut. I can do serious work on it only in terms of writing -- the strongest photo suite (The Gimp) is not sufficient for my purposes, though it is a capable graphics editor for a wide range of uses.

I especially like the fact that Ubuntu is free, which permits me to play around in it without the serious responsibility that the least of MS offerings entail. My xyl uses all Mac stuff, which is even worse than MS when it comes to cost.

[n2ize]

I'm a Fedora man myself. It started about 15 years ago when i installed an early version of Redhat running the 1.2.x kernel. In those days I had no sound and you recompiled the kernel to add/remove support for various hardware. In that sense it was truly monolithic, both architecturally and otherwise.

[n2ize]

So, eh... guy doesn't want to use linux, don't use linux... lol.. So someone says it doesnt do as much... Ok, I will finish the sentence it doesnt do as much FOR THEM..

Wow... I dont understand the in your face with linux attitude. lol.

Anyway, 'guh

If, as you mentioned, you like to use the occasional "linux" type command, install Cygwin on your windows machine and be done.

It's an API that lets you do a bunch of "Unix-ish" stuff on your Windahs system.

In my case I use rsync to sync my email, music and other crap to my storage box.
Also if I need an X server to get into some management crap that's on a sparc or linux it's good for that.

It is what it is, I like windows as a user OS. It just works better. I like linux as a service. It just has more for that.

Been doing this enough I dont have to do the epeen thing.. lol

Enjoy your computer whatever you use it for..

Windows is an operating system. Nothing more. it has no philosophical roots other than a business model. It's about as straight laced and piggish as any software can get, serving only the pigs and not the people. Linux/open source is rooted in deep philosophy. No surprise, it's creators are anarchists and philosophers (i.e. mathematicians). This is what makes Linux (and much of open source) vibrant and passionate. It deals with humankind, it's values and the things man has pondered since the dawn of time. And it represents those ideals. That is largely why it's family is so passionate about it. You can;t use Linux or open source software without becoming intimately connected with its philosophical underpinnings.

I often wonder. If Galois were alive today would he grok open source ? Would he be a cyberphunk ?