B-29 frozen in time

[w2amr]

6 parts. I saw this on PBS years ago, an amazing story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFdFo9Yo0LI

[n2ize]

I am surprised that NOVA has adapted to sensationalist stuff such as this. What happened to shows about science, quantum mechanics, astrophysics, and new frontiers in science, mathematics, etc.etc. This is not to say that topics such as preserving a B29 are not interesting. But they should fall under the category of history and historical preservation. NOVA was supposed to be about new frontiers in science and related fields.

[NQ6U]

I am surprised that NOVA has adapted to sensationalist stuff such as this. What happened to shows about science, quantum mechanics, astrophysics, and new frontiers in science, mathematics, etc.etc. This is not to say that topics such as preserving a B29 are not interesting. But they should fall under the category of history and historical preservation. NOVA was supposed to be about new frontiers in science and related fields.

The Republicans took over PBS is what happened.

Okay, not took over, but by threating to take away NEA funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, they have exercised undue influence over PBS programming resulting in a dumbing-down of many programs, NOVA included.

[kd8dey]

I think I saw that. after all the hard work, Didn't it burn up in an accident before they could fly it off??

[ka8ncr]

I am surprised that NOVA has adapted to sensationalist stuff such as this. What happened to shows about science, quantum mechanics, astrophysics, and new frontiers in science, mathematics, etc.etc. This is not to say that topics such as preserving a B29 are not interesting. But they should fall under the category of history and historical preservation. NOVA was supposed to be about new frontiers in science and related fields.

Because there's 8 shows per season and only so many really compelling discoveries that fill an hour and are interesting. You and I might like looking at proofs of the algorithms of IBM's Watson, but you don't need to be a genius to know that makes for lousy TV. Plus, it doesn't hurt to cast a wider net for contributors to public television.

[ka8ncr]

I think I saw that. after all the hard work, Didn't it burn up in an accident before they could fly it off??

They blew it. Should have pieced it out and taken it all home.

[KC2UGV]

The Republicans took over PBS is what happened.

Okay, not took over, but by threating to take away NEA funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, they have exercised undue influence over PBS programming resulting in a dumbing-down of many programs, NOVA included.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_OehRLH3s

[W5GA]

Jeez, what a heart breaker.

[w2amr]

Jeez, what a heart breaker.Yeah

[w2amr]

I am surprised that NOVA has adapted to sensationalist stuff such as this. What happened to shows about science, quantum mechanics, astrophysics, and new frontiers in science, mathematics, etc.etc. This is not to say that topics such as preserving a B29 are not interesting. But they should fall under the category of history and historical preservation. NOVA was supposed to be about new frontiers in science and related fields.Before you comment on it's content, maybe you should actually watch it first.

[KA5PIU]

They blew it. Should have pieced it out and taken it all home.

Hello.

There were magnesium charges that were set, remember that this aircraft was not demiled and the aircraft was left in a less than ideal place.
Minor SNAFU, major flameout.

[N2CHX]

WTF???? WTF?! Seriously?

I just took the time to watch all six segments because WWII fascinates me. And at the end, after all that work and the death of the chief engineer, the damn thing burns to the ground taxiing to the makeshift runway because someone forgot to make sure the APU was fastened down properly?

You gotta be kidding me. What a letdown.

[w2amr]

WTF???? WTF?! Seriously?

I just took the time to watch all six segments because WWII fascinates me. And at the end, after all that work and the death of the chief engineer, the damn thing burns to the ground taxiing to the makeshift runway because someone forgot to make sure the APU was fastened down properly?

You gotta be kidding me. What a letdown.It's a heartbreaking finish alright, But still a great story.

[N2CHX]

It's a heartbreaking finish alright, But still a great story.

Not really. A great story would have been the chief engineer living to see the plane he worked so hard to restore actually make it off the ground. That story completely sucked ass. It was horrid. No one should be so invested in a piece of scrap aluminum that they die over it. That guy died. For what? So the thing he worked himself literally to death on could burn to the ground and end up at the bottom of a frozen lake? Not my idea of a good story. To be quite frank, they should have just left the thing alone. It was a monument to the men who risked their lives at the end of WWII and now it's not even that anymore. At least it was intact before, now it's melted and twisted and can't even be seen anymore.

[w2amr]

Sorry, I'll try to do better next time.

[w2amr]

Not really. A great story would have been the chief engineer living to see the plane he worked so hard to restore actually make it off the ground. That story completely sucked ass. It was horrid. No one should be so invested in a piece of scrap aluminum that they die over it. That guy died. For what? So the thing he worked himself literally to death on could burn to the ground and end up at the bottom of a frozen lake? Not my idea of a good story. To be quite frank, they should have just left the thing alone. It was a monument to the men who risked their lives at the end of WWII and now it's not even that anymore. At least it was intact before, now it's melted and twisted and can't even be seen anymore.
Un, ok.

[N2CHX]

Sorry, I'll try to do better next time.

LOL, don't take it personally. I just find the whole thing extremely tragic.

[K7SGJ]

Personally, I'm always interested in stories of aviation; especially warbirds. Was this a horrid story? I don't think so. Tragic? Absolutely. A good story? I think it shows what some people will do when they believe in their convictions. It's true that one man died during the project, but all of them knew there was an element of risk involved. It's hard to say whether they tried it for the potential monetary gain, or for love of the aircraft and the memory of the original flight crew and the missions they flew. I'd like to think it's the latter, but in truth it's probably some of both, and probably more of the former.

[w2amr]

Personally, I'm always interested in stories of aviation; especially warbirds. Was this a horrid story? I don't think so. Tragic? Absolutely. A good story? I think it shows what some people will do when they believe in their convictions. It's true that one man died during the project, but all of them knew there was an element of risk involved. It's hard to say whether they tried it for the potential monetary gain, or for love of the aircraft and the memory of the original flight crew and the missions they flew. I'd like to think it's the latter, but in truth it's probably some of both, and probably more of the former.Most stories like this would end with the B-29 being flown to it's new home. I don't think this type of ending was anticipated ,which really floors most people who watch it. You just feel so badly for these guys.

[N2CHX]

Most stories like this would end with the B-29 being flown to it's new home. I don't think this type of ending was anticipated ,which really floors most people who watch it. You just feel so badly for these guys.

I definitely didn't expect it and yeah I was floored. And the only thing I could think of while watching the crew sit in their chairs watching the thing burn was "OMG, what must they be thinking right now, after spending all that time, effort and money on that thing?"

[ka8ncr]

I definitely didn't expect it and yeah I was floored. And the only thing I could think of while watching the crew sit in their chairs watching the thing burn was "OMG, what must they be thinking right now, after spending all that time, effort and money on that thing?"

I wonder what they were thinking in the first place. It's one thing to rescue an automobile that's been in the woods for years, clean up the engine and drive it out. If it fails, well call someone to pick you up at the side of the road. But this is flying; they're damned lucky this didn't happen at 10,000 feet.

They should have just chopped it up and hauled it out.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

100% correct.
And, from what I was able to see it was not a simple APU fire, it was the self destruct set.
The speed of the fire alone suggests more than a simple fire.
I was first told this by a flight engineer on a B-29 who has long retired who saw the video.
The self destruct is a set of stainless steel bolts that have a center section that is filled with magnesium and an has some form of igniter.

[w2amr]

Hello.

100% correct.
And, from what I was able to see it was not a simple APU fire, it was the self destruct set.
The speed of the fire alone suggests more than a simple fire.
I was first told this by a flight engineer on a B-29 who has long retired who saw the video.
The self destruct is a set of stainless steel bolts that have a center section that is filled with magnesium and an has some form of igniter.
Good Lord.:roll:

[N2CHX]

Good Lord.:roll:

Dun dun dun.........

http://www.zeigen.com/blog/wp-content/dramatic-chipmunk.gif

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

There are references to engine fires and the like but the key seems to be the APU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-29_Superfortress
This aircraft held a lot of secrets and unlike modern hardware where you simply remove power and it "forgets", this is real hardware.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/military-encryption-self-destruct-control#
It is unknown what aircraft this may have been in and is presented as an example only.
But it is known that the self destruct would blow the APU off its mounts.
http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=310448
Note that by the very fact that there are questions about the running state of the APU calls into question the APU.
We may never know for sure but I would like to think that something other than a bunch of guys holding gasoline over a hot engine caused the thing to burst into flames.

[WA4TM]

George, thanks for posting this.. I saw it years ago on PBS, but it was good to see it again.

[KE7DKN]

6 parts. I saw this on PBS years ago, an amazing story.

Excellent video. Thanks for sharing.

Not all adventures end with success. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[KE7DKN]

Hello.

100% correct.
And, from what I was able to see it was not a simple APU fire, it was the self destruct set.
The speed of the fire alone suggests more than a simple fire.

Because a gasoline fire inside an aircraft is "simple." :roll:


I was first told this by a flight engineer on a B-29 who has long retired who saw the video.
So is all this the expert opinion of your imaginary friend, or yours?


The self destruct is a set of stainless steel bolts that have a center section that is filled with magnesium and an has some form of igniter.

Or... Gravity + Ground/Sea = B-29 self-destruct


Hello.

There are references to engine fires and the like but the key seems to be the APU.
Yeah. It seems to have ignited the fire.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-29_Superfortress
This aircraft held a lot of secrets and unlike modern hardware where you simply remove power and it "forgets", this is real hardware.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/military-encryption-self-destruct-control#
It is unknown what aircraft this may have been in and is presented as an example only.
But it is known that the self destruct would blow the APU off its mounts.

The magnesium in your "self-destruct bolts" would most likely burn, not explode. Moreover, it's the sensitive components that would've been rigged with self-destruct mechanisms - not the entire aircraft.

Anyway... If you're looking for a way that an APU could be dislodged, bouncing the aircraft on snowdrifts or other obstacles might be worth checking out.


http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=310448
Note that by the very fact that there are questions about the running state of the APU calls into question the APU.
Not really.


We may never know for sure but I would like to think that something other than a bunch of guys holding gasoline over a hot engine caused the thing to burst into flames.
There was no mention of "a bunch of guys holding gasoline over a hot engine" in the video.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Take a look at the warbirds link I provided.
Quite a few of the members are both hams and second world war vets.
http://commemorativeairforce.org/?page=cms/index&cms_page=141
The gents I hear talking about this stuff were there, and are close enough to where I can talk to some of them on my 2 meter mobile, direct. ;)

[KC9ECI]

Check out the Glacier Girl. http://p38assn.org/glacier-girl.htm

[KE7DKN]

Hello.

Take a look at the warbirds link I provided.
I did. There's nothing about "self-destruct bolts" or anything like that.


Quite a few of the members are both hams and second world war vets.
http://commemorativeairforce.org/?page=cms/index&cms_page=141

Very few of the people on that website look like WWII vets. I like how the "General Staff" listing has a bunch of "Colonels" on the page. Whackers with warplanes? It's more likely than you think.

Even so, what does being a veteran of the second world war have to do with it? Not every WWII vet even saw a B-29 while in the service, nor veterans of the Korean War (in which the B-29 also served), nor peacetime vets. I think your "flight engineer" is just part of a fish story - either someone else's or yours.


The gents I hear talking about this stuff were there, and are close enough to where I can talk to some of them on my 2 meter mobile, direct. ;)
Sure ya do.

Do they bullshit as much as you? Would you be able to tell if they did? Do they believe your stories when you tell them?

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

The ONLY flying B-29 is with the group.
http://www.cafb29b24.org/a/Book-A-Ride-b29.htm
You can even get a ride in it, for a price.
I have no idea as to what happened, I know every little about the aircraft other than having ridden in this one.
But I would take the word of the people involved in flying the only one that can be flown before anyone else. ;)

[KE7DKN]

Hello.

The ONLY flying B-29 is with the group.
http://www.cafb29b24.org/a/Book-A-Ride-b29.htm
You can even get a ride in it, for a price.
I have no idea as to what happened, I know every little about the aircraft other than having ridden in this one.
And yet you knew enough to say the fire was caused by self-destruct charges. That must've been some ride. :roll:


But I would take the word of the people involved in flying the only one that can be flown before anyone else. ;)
But the guy who tried to restore one to working condition and then fly it off the ice, you found his "gasoline fire" story to be doubtful? Yeah, okay.

[KA5PIU]

And yet you knew enough to say the fire was caused by self-destruct charges. That must've been some ride. :roll:


But the guy who tried to restore one to working condition and then fly it off the ice, you found his "gasoline fire" story to be doubtful? Yeah, okay.

Hello.

I have no idea as to what happened.
The APU bouncing around thing is one answer, but that means that the bunch doing this had very poor planning.
And, I have no idea about the charge thing, I was told that this fits in with the accident better.
Remember, this is what I have heard listening to people who fly the ONLY aircraft still in flying order.
I do know that charges were in the IFF units of that era and this went on until at least the 60s.
However you nor I have any idea, or the people who made the video, as the one key eyewitness died in the accident and the aircraft did a real good job of burning the evidence.
Bottom line is that we may never know.
But one thing is clear, this rescue effort was a complete failure.

[KE7DKN]

Hello.

I have no idea as to what happened.
The APU bouncing around thing is one answer, but that means that the bunch doing this had very poor planning.
You have no idea what happened, but that won't stop you from critiquing their efforts with wild speculation.


And, I have no idea about the charge thing, I was told that this fits in with the accident better.
Remember, this is what I have heard listening to people who fly the ONLY aircraft still in flying order.
I don't believe that at all.


I do know that charges were in the IFF units of that era and this went on until at least the 60s.
Sure. And because one piece of equipment might have been fitted with some material to burn its classified components in an emergency, it makes sense to imagine rigging up the entire plane with charges. It's not like the Soviet Union didn't already have three B-29s that landed over there in the later years of WWII, with which they reverse-engineered and produced the Tu-4 "Bull" (ha ha!) in significant quantities.

No, no. The whole plane needs self-destruct charges. Right.

I guess we know how wacky conspiracy theories are born.


However you nor I have any idea, or the people who made the video, as the one key eyewitness died in the accident and the aircraft did a real good job of burning the evidence.
Who died in the accident? Nobody from the original crew died in their emergency landing, and nobody died in the later fire.

I have an idea of what happened: There was a gasoline spill that ignited and the fire quickly spread throughout the aircraft. You know, like the guys on the video said.


Bottom line is that we may never know.
But one thing is clear, this rescue effort was a complete failure.
Easy to say with 20/20 hindsight from the comfort of your armchair, eh?

[n2ize]

Before you comment on it's content, maybe you should actually watch it first.

I've seen it and I'm not knocking the story. The story is interesting but it is really not NOVA material. In the old days NOVA used to do really interesting science stories relating to new ideas and work being done on the frontiers of quantum physics, astrophysics, meteorology, biology, and even mathematics and computer science. Those are the kinds of stories I would like to see Nova get back to making its prime focus. Sadly, Nova deteriorated when it drifted away from pure science.

The story about the B29 was interesting. But more sensationalist than scientific. I could see it being part of an adventure series, or even a history series. But not on Nova. At least not the Nova that I used to enjoy.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

The trouble with the Nova thing is that there were no really qualified experts present.
The people who fly the only B-29 that can be flown had advised that group that there were issues and left early on, very well documented.
It has now been CONFIRMED that a self destruct device was set on board the Kee Bird.
Since all of the classified material was already destructed or removed the only charges left would have been on the APU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kee_Bird
The charges were intended to allow the APU to be removed from its mount quickly and are not explosive, they burn.
The other thing that happens is that a small charge crimps the fuel line to the APU closed.
Had the charge been set off prior to the attempt to fly this aircraft and this might have happened.
The APU, being held only by the 2 guide pins and not getting any fuel was provided with an external fuel line.
As the only thing holding the APU in place were the guide pins, the motion of the aircraft caused the APU to become dislodged.
The fuel line became disconnected and set the aircraft on fire.
Again, this comes from people who had flown this aircraft.

[NQ6U]

Rudy, you are so consistent! As usual, you include a link that contradicts your claim. From the very site you linked to:


As Darryl Greenamyer was taxiing the aircraft onto the frozen lake, the B-29's auxiliary power unit's jury-rigged fuel tank began to leak gasoline into the rear fuselage.[citation needed] Fire broke out and quickly spread to the rest of the aircraft. The cockpit crew escaped unharmed but cook/mechanic, Bob Vanderveen, who was visually monitoring the engines from the rear of the aircraft, suffered smoke inhalation and flash burns

No mention of a self-destruct device whatsoever.

[KA5PIU]

Rudy, you are so consistent! As usual, you include a link that contradicts your claim. From the very site you linked to:



No mention of a self-destruct device whatsoever.

Hello.

Why was the fuel jury rigged?
Why did the APU move from its mounts.
And there need be no mention of a self destruct.
It does not cause the aircraft to explode, it sets it up to fail.
Unlike a ship, where the thin g is scuttled and sinks to the bottom, aircraft self destruct is intended to make it inoperable and destroy classified material, nothing more.
The aircraft was on a classified mission and was configured with classified equipment when it went down.
All four engines were inoperative when it was found and nearly the entire electrical system was fried, things that could not be repaired but needed to be replaced.
When the crew were told to leave the aircraft one of the last things they would have done would have been to set the self destruct.
There is no question but that this would have been done.
The APU is not damaged but is broken from its mounts and the fuel line is permanently closed, a known fact.
This is why the crew did not use an ax or hammer on the APU, no need.

[KE7DKN]

Hello.

The trouble with the Nova thing is that there were no really qualified experts present.
You wouldn't know who's a "qualified expert" to begin with.


The people who fly the only B-29 that can be flown had advised that group that there were issues and left early on, very well documented.
Bullshit. If it's "very well documented," you should have no problems providing some of it.

First it was a B-29 "flight engineer" who gave you the info. Then it was people who "are both hams and second world war vets." Now it's "the people who fly the only B-29 that can be flown." Change it enough and maybe something will stick.


It has now been CONFIRMED that a self destruct device was set on board the Kee Bird.
Writing in all caps and bolding the text doesn't make it confirmed or even true.


Since all of the classified material was already destructed or removed the only charges left would have been on the APU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kee_Bird
There's nothing about "charges" in the link.

"The pilot of the B-29 had already destroyed all classified material and equipment by burning and smashing with an axe."

Sounds like things were taken care of without "charges" or whatever.


The charges were intended to allow the APU to be removed from its mount quickly and are not explosive, they burn.
The other thing that happens is that a small charge crimps the fuel line to the APU closed.
Because it's critical that an APU be quickly removable from its mount. :roll: It's so our precious APU technology didn't fall into Japanese/Korean/Russian hands, right?


Had the charge been set off prior to the attempt to fly this aircraft and this might have happened.
The APU, being held only by the 2 guide pins and not getting any fuel was provided with an external fuel line.
As the only thing holding the APU in place were the guide pins, the motion of the aircraft caused the APU to become dislodged.
The fuel line became disconnected and set the aircraft on fire.
Again, this comes from people who had flown this aircraft.
No, all this is coming from you. And you're full of shit.

[n2ize]

There is no success like failure, and failure is no success at all.

[n2ize]

Because there's 8 shows per season and only so many really compelling discoveries that fill an hour and are interesting. You and I might like looking at proofs of the algorithms of IBM's Watson, but you don't need to be a genius to know that makes for lousy TV. Plus, it doesn't hurt to cast a wider net for contributors to public television.

But that's just it. Nova used to cover real science and technology and they made it interesting for the average person as well as the type of person who is already "in the know". Nova used to cover some advanced topics on the frontiers of science but they did it in such a way that the average person would find it fascinating, or at least interesting, while at the same time it would also capture the interest of the student and knowledgeable professional. While it is true that people with a strong scientific, math, computer background can always go to a professional journal (or even a Wikipage in a pinch) and derive great detail at far greater depth than a TV program, doing the same is above the heads of many people without such backgrounds. That's where shows like Nova used to come in. They provided explanations of leading edge topics, laying out the basic framework and adding just enough details and speculations, illustrations, etc. to capture and hold the interest of any TV viewer of reasonable intelligence while at the same time avoiding such depth that it would be over peoples heads. An analogy might be taking a skin diver for his first dive. You take him down just far enough to get him a glimpse of the beauty of the world under the sea and whet his appetite yet not so deep that he gets nitrogen narcosis while he's down or a case of the bends when he surfaces. That is kind of what Nova used to do with topics on the forefronts of science, etc.

case and point. A friend of mine got his first taste of Superstring Theory via Nova and he was thoroughly fascinated by the topic.

Many years ago (I was still in high school) I saw Richard Feynman speaking for the first time on Nova. Listening to him speak was a great incentive to me and served as an encouragement to take my science courses seriously and do well in them.

This is the kind of format I would like to see Nova bring back and focus upon.