Was the US digital TV standard a mistake?

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

The USA has this DTV standard, unusual in that it is only a US standard.
By the very nature of the thing it can not be used while in motion.
What is worse is the fact that Nothing can be in motion, swaying trees will cause signal dropout.
What is worse is that this is a proprietary system, not open to just anyone.
True, when the US went to color there was a license issue, but monochrome TV worked with it and anyone could build a monochrome set.
Mexico has decided to let the market decide, since the US standard has flunked every test.
Canada may allow the European standard to coexist if not flat out rejecting ATSC.

[KJ3N]

This is what happens when your country has lobbyists and corporations in charge, instead of technical people.

We could have simply adopted existing standards, but those standards had one major problem; NIH. :roll:

[PA5COR]

The European PAL ( Phase Alternate Line) worked fine, better as the US Never The Same Colour system.
Also compatible with the 625 lines B%W system.

Our Landbased digital TV system works driving or stationairy.

[N5RLR]

I keep asking: Do we even friggin' *NEED* digital television? :wall:

[KJ3N]

I keep asking: Do we even friggin' *NEED* digital television? :wall:

Yes. You should see some of the Nature shows on PBS on a 57-inch screen. :yes:

[KG4CGC]

Everything in the US has to be geared towards Corporate, being able to squeeze every last dime out of everyone and everything.
That is the sole deciding factor. Science is merely and inconvenient "item" to be cast aside.
On a positive note, this standard does bring back into vogue the requirement for a large outdoor antenna, therefore challenging the BS requirements of HOAs and the like.

[KJ3N]

On a positive note, this standard does bring back into vogue the requirement for a large outdoor antenna, therefore challenging the BS requirements of HOAs and the like.

The FCC took care of OTA antennas for TV reception some time ago.

[KG4CGC]

The FCC took care of OTA antennas for TV reception some time ago.
OK, but I was thinking more along the lines of the Nazi type dictators that are HOA presidents.
There is supposed to be a federal preemption to Amateur antennas too but we have all read about HOAs who believe that they are above the law. Sticking more antennas in their faces is a good thing from my perspective. My dark, warped, evil laugh perspective.

[PA5COR]

We don't have that problem here, that is covered in Art 10 of the EVRM supersedes any country law or local llaw, even if you signes an agreement, that will make it null and viod.

Article 10. - Freedom of expression

(http://lexius.nl/verdrag-tot-bescherming-van-de-rechten-van-de-mens-en-de-fundamentele-vrijheden-rome-04-11-1950/artikel10)
1.

(http://lexius.nl/verdrag-tot-bescherming-van-de-rechten-van-de-mens-en-de-fundamentele-vrijheden-rome-04-11-1950/artikel10/lid1)Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

In the several national and European court decissions that gave us as the right to erect an antenna mast and antenna's.
Even on rented property's.

[KJ3N]

OK, but I was thinking more along the lines of the Nazi type dictators that are HOA presidents.
There is supposed to be a federal preemption to Amateur antennas too but we have all read about HOAs who believe that they are above the law. Sticking more antennas in their faces is a good thing from my perspective. My dark, warped, evil laugh perspective.

PRB-1 only covers reasonable accommodation of amateur radio when it comes to city, county, and state governments. It is NOT a blanket exemption of those regulations.

HOAs, CCRs, and any other restrictions written into the deed of your property, that you signed your acceptance to when you bought the house, are considered private contracts that the FCC will not get involved with. HOAs can get away with it because you accepted their restrictions when you signed the deed to the house.

[KG4CGC]

PRB-1 only covers reasonable accommodation of amateur radio when it comes to city, county, and state governments. It is NOT a blanket exemption of those regulations.

HOAs, CCRs, and any other restrictions written into the deed of your property, that you signed your acceptance to when you bought the house, are considered private contracts that the FCC will not get involved with. HOAs can get away with it because you accepted their restrictions when you signed the deed to the house.
You are correct in what you are saying, however, it still chaps my hide to no end the brainwashing involved that allows these organizations to have proliferated to such a degree. It is immoral and unAmerican.
HOA really stands for Hate On America.

[KJ3N]

You are correct in what you are saying, however, it still chaps my hide to no end the brainwashing involved that allows these organizations to have proliferated to such a degree. It is immoral and unAmerican.
HOA really stands for Hate On America.

Which is why I make it a point to never buy a house with those restrictions. It can be done, if you are willing to make the effort.

The only people who can tell me what I can do with this property are the county and/or the state. Their only concerns have to do with safety and environmental impact.

[ab3lw]

The only concern i have about digital is the possibility of it no longer being free. I mean how long before some gov. genius decides FTA is an "untapped revenue source". One thing that advances in technology seem to bring with them is free stuff going away.

Time will tell, and based on history, i can see us all paying tax on number of hours of tv viewing.

[KG4CGC]

The only concern i have about digital is the possibility of it no longer being free. I mean how long before some gov. genius decides FTA is an "untapped revenue source". One thing that advances in technology seem to bring with them is free stuff going away.

Time will tell, and based on history, i can see us all paying tax on number of hours of tv viewing.
Yearly TV and Radio license like they do in other countries. Done deal.

[KC2UGV]

The only concern i have about digital is the possibility of it no longer being free. I mean how long before some gov. genius decides FTA is an "untapped revenue source". One thing that advances in technology seem to bring with them is free stuff going away.

Time will tell, and based on history, i can see us all paying tax on number of hours of tv viewing.

They've already onto that... Have you tried recording OTA broadcasts lately?

[N5RLR]

Yes. You should see some of the Nature shows on PBS on a 57-inch screen. :yes:
The size of the screen doesn't matter; the same imagery can/could be accommodated with analog signals.

I remember reading something about a vintage television museum. In it was one of the last [if not the last] surviving original RCA color sets. It had been meticulously restored, right down to completely rebuilding the original CRT. Using a then-available NTSC signal, it was said to have displayed a picture better than the garden-variety production units available at the time. The set simply utilized more of the signal information presented to it.

Why couldn't we do this today, especially with our advanced technology? Cost. The bean-counters have trumped quality. Nowadays we have a television standard that is more finicky than the one that preceded it. Progress? Methinks not. :wall:

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Bottom line is this.
The FCC has correctly stated that at least 1/3 of the analog viewing audience has not fully made the transition.
And they will not.
The security guard who would watch the show on a portable will not, no reception from a monopole at that location.
The parents with the soccer mom SUV, now it is the DVD player, ATSC will not work while in motion.
Even turning on that AM/FM/TV band radio and listening to the show, no longer an option, and there is no replacement.
At the present time there is no shirt pocket ATSC TV, and if there was, who would want a TV that will only work if you hold it still?

[KG4CGC]

Hello.

Bottom line is this.
The FCC has correctly stated that at least 1/3 of the analog viewing audience has not fully made the transition.
And they will not.
The security guard who would watch the show on a portable will not, no reception from a monopole at that location.
The parents with the soccer mom SUV, now it is the DVD player, ATSC will not work while in motion.
Even turning on that AM/FM/TV band radio and listening to the show, no longer an option, and there is no replacement.
At the present time there is no shirt pocket ATSC TV, and if there was, who would want a TV that will only work if you hold it still?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-2VpJWfUhE

[KG4CGC]

You're Welcome.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3902971

[NQ6U]

Yeah, but is it cable-ready?

[ab3lw]

They've already onto that... Have you tried recording OTA broadcasts lately?

No, Dont tell me they have a copy prohibit scheme! I was afraid of that, digital mode would carry the prohibit bit with it.
Im sure there is a "special patchcord" for that. Like there was to scrub the prohibit bit for cd recorders. Then again maybe TASCAM has a pro dvr that ignores copy prohibit like their pro cdr equipment does.

[KG4CGC]

http://www.amazon.com/iVIEW-350PTV-3-5-Inch-Portable-Digital-LCD/dp/B0037NZ1JC

[NQ6U]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-2VpJWfUhE

http://www.amazon.com/iVIEW-350PTV-3-5-Inch-Portable-Digital-LCD/dp/B0037NZ1JC

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3902971

That's only three, which is almost none.

[ka8ncr]

Hello.

The USA has this DTV standard, unusual in that it is only a US standard.
By the very nature of the thing it can not be used while in motion.
What is worse is the fact that Nothing can be in motion, swaying trees will cause signal dropout.
What is worse is that this is a proprietary system, not open to just anyone.
True, when the US went to color there was a license issue, but monochrome TV worked with it and anyone could build a monochrome set.
Mexico has decided to let the market decide, since the US standard has flunked every test.
Canada may allow the European standard to coexist if not flat out rejecting ATSC.

ATSC is a compromise. The modulation method of 8VSB offers better impulse noise immunity and is hella-faster at acquisition than COFDM. It sucks horribly whenever multipath is around because it distorts the pilot, which starts the whole decoding process. Given my preferences, I probably would have opted for DVB-T, but then I'd be taking care of 4 or 5 PA cabinets instead of 3 since COFDM has much higher power requirements. I can't imagine the power that would be pitched trying to meet the channel mask with COFDM.

COFDM is what they use for news live shots, and it's persnickety. It sure as hell wouldn't work with a set of rabbit ears either.

Most TV stations have the ability to add a COFDM signal to their ATSC output for mobile devices. We have one where I work in Detroit. No one watches it because there are no devices on the market yet.

[ka8ncr]

The only concern i have about digital is the possibility of it no longer being free. I mean how long before some gov. genius decides FTA is an "untapped revenue source". One thing that advances in technology seem to bring with them is free stuff going away.

Time will tell, and based on history, i can see us all paying tax on number of hours of tv viewing.

They already have that. One of the UHF stations out of Toledo has about a dozen streams that are encrypted. I suspect they're leased out for some purpose.

[KG4CGC]

That's only three, which is almost none.

At the present time there is no shirt pocket ATSC TV, and if there was, who would want a TV that will only work if you hold it still?
When I was working in a German warehouse for the reconnaissance arm of the French army we had seen this technology shelved in favor of the British system.
Hello,

[KC2UGV]

No, Dont tell me they have a copy prohibit scheme! I was afraid of that, digital mode would carry the prohibit bit with it.
Im sure there is a "special patchcord" for that. Like there was to scrub the prohibit bit for cd recorders. Then again maybe TASCAM has a pro dvr that ignores copy prohibit like their pro cdr equipment does.

It's there... "Broadcast Protection Flag": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag#The_FCC_Broadcast_flag_ruling

[KA5PIU]

http://www.amazon.com/iVIEW-350PTV-3-5-Inch-Portable-Digital-LCD/dp/B0037NZ1JC

Hello.

"Lack of reception does not indicate a defective product, but a weak transmission signal. To improve reception, try moving the unit to another location, connect to external antenna, or wait for improved weather condition."
Scroll to "Product Description" last line.
I am not saying that something pocket size can not be made, and this thing will not fit in the average shirt or pants pocket like the analog sets did, just that there would be no point on it, ATSC does not work while moving.
No AM/FM/TV band portables you can strap across your arm and go jogging with, at present such a product would not work.

[KG4CGC]

Hello.

"Lack of reception does not indicate a defective product, but a weak transmission signal. To improve reception, try moving the unit to another location, connect to external antenna, or wait for improved weather condition."
Scroll to "Product Description" last line.
I am not saying that something pocket size can not be made, and this thing will not fit in the average shirt or pants pocket like the analog sets did, just that there would be no point on it, ATSC does not work while moving.
No AM/FM/TV band portables you can strap across your arm and go jogging with, at present such a product would not work.
You're dancing.

[ka8ncr]

Hello.

"Lack of reception does not indicate a defective product, but a weak transmission signal. To improve reception, try moving the unit to another location, connect to external antenna, or wait for improved weather condition."
Scroll to "Product Description" last line.
I am not saying that something pocket size can not be made, and this thing will not fit in the average shirt or pants pocket like the analog sets did, just that there would be no point on it, ATSC does not work while moving.
No AM/FM/TV band portables you can strap across your arm and go jogging with, at present such a product would not work.

The ATSC mobile version works fine. I've witnessed it working in my car out where I live, and I'm 45 miles from the transmitter site.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Something like this.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-SRF-M37V-Weather-Walkman-Presets/dp/B00008W7LS
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-SRF-M80V-Walkman-Weather-Channels/dp/B000066HO4
I just picked Sony and Amazon.
At one time there were dozens of this type of thing on the market.
That tells you that there was a market for this type of thing, a market that is now gone.
FLOTV is shutting down.
http://www.flotv.com/
The other option is not ready.
http://www.mobitv.com/
So I get my portable TV fix from my phone.
That is correct, I no longer watch TV on my TV when out and about, nor does anyone else.
There is no dancing involved, fact of the matter is that DTV is something of a failure in the USA.

[KC2UGV]

Hello.

Something like this.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-SRF-M37V-Weather-Walkman-Presets/dp/B00008W7LS
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-SRF-M80V-Walkman-Weather-Channels/dp/B000066HO4
I just picked Sony and Amazon.
At one time there were dozens of this type of thing on the market.
That tells you that there was a market for this type of thing, a market that is now gone.
FLOTV is shutting down.
http://www.flotv.com/
The other option is not ready.
http://www.mobitv.com/
So I get my portable TV fix from my phone.
That is correct, I no longer watch TV on my TV when out and about, nor does anyone else.
There is no dancing involved, fact of the matter is that DTV is something of a failure in the USA.

FloTV and MobiTV are subscriber-based services, that work on 4G cell networks, not regular OTA broadcasts.

I have a pocket-sized TV that works just fine. And, it cost me just over $100. Works fine while I'm driving too.

[ab3lw]

Great info! Thanks UGV.
Looks like a simple filter solution or a lobotomy on the dvr.

CCI flag ignore cant be very hard to do. And perfectly legal unless its part of a scheme to redistribute content illegally.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Terrain has a lot to do with DTV.
I picked 2 of the absolute worst for DTV.
The first is in an urban area where ghosting has always been something of an issue, and outside antennas are no cure for 30 foot tall buildings everywhere.
The second is starting towards the "devils backbone", a series of ridges that start from the North of San Antonio and take you to the Texas hill country.
I live in an area where I can get DTV, sometimes.
There is a trade off, elevation for stability.
High enough to get over the trees, 40 feet, and you have a guyed tower.
Under that and the trees cause trouble.
This is, of course, in bad weather, but that is the time I want television.
I picked real world situations and real world products.
And yes, Mexico, a country that uses hundreds of TV translators, is having some real issues at this point.
In place of a TV converter coupon program they are looking at a dish giveaway.
The Mexico City DTV experiment is considered a total failure, less than 5% of the population wants DTV.
Remember that this is a country that has something like 30% of the TV sets that are monochrome.
television is not as much a part of the life of the average Mexican as it is in the US.
In fact in some places the press has no real effect on the population as they prefer to keep to the community.
The Federales are seen as outsiders and one reason why the drug cartels do so well.

[kb2vxa]

We can blame the FCC's insufferable greed over good engineering practices for making such a mess of radio and TV. They caved in to the Motorola lobby every time, that's how we got stuck with 8VSB modulation even though the Baltimore Experiment proved COFDM far superior at the same power level. Europe enjoys far superior reception and the rub is COFDM was invented here and sold off to recover losses incurred in research and development.

Now for AM radio, the original Kahn full carrier ISB stereo modulation scheme was fully mono compatible yet they caved in and mandated the Motorola system which is not. That's how a ham acquaintance got his hands on a Kahn exciter that went into the Dumpster but I digress. One of the huge advantages of ISB is emphasizing one sideband over the other to avoid interfering with an adjacent channel but since talk radio took over broadcasters tossed into the Dumpster all that money they spent on AM stereo, Motorola and all. Then the FCC approved IBOC and all hell broke loose, that annoying hiss is all over the band and nighttime propagation raises Cain all over North America. Oh and BTW, Canada hates us for it just like US broadcasters hated Mexican border blasters, now the shoe is on the other foot.

Sheila Broflovski can sing Blame Canada all she wants to but I'll go with Peter Griffin, I blame the FCC!

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

FLOTV works on 700 mHz and has little to do with cellular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaFLO
In the San Antonio and Houston area nearly everyone has gone from OTA TV to nothing or subscription TV.
At the area I live at they decided to spend the money and improve the CATV system by installing a true headend.
Once digital hit we went back to the old equipment. ;)
The new chief engineer was promptly fired, the old equipment simply took the OTA signal and amplified it, other than tilt there was/is no processing of the signal.
For nearly a month it was shut down while they decided what to do.
Time Warner felt it was uneconomical to run service out here and Bexar cable went broke before the buyout so we bought the cable plant and set up CATV quite a few years ago.
All of the farms are now gone and a HOA community has sprung up around us.
The developer paid to have all of the utilities buried, including our old magneto telephone lines and the REC telephone service.
AT&T now provides landline service but the old hand crank phones still work, connected to the other 5 farm houses in the neighborhood.
The HOA now treats us like industrial sites but we now live together pretty well.
But, the days of people jogging around and watching TV OTA is gone, it just does not work that well here.
There were always ghosts on analog TV, no matter what you did, and why the CATV system was installed.
This area has lots of trees in one area, nearly a forest, that acts as an excellent buffer from the highway and such.
To the north is rolling hills with plenty of brush.
The flatlands was level farmland but is now a gated community of 180 houses.

[HUGH]

http://www.rewindmuseum.com/images3/ekcotmb272aerial.gif

Digital TV means I'll have to dispose of this I suppose.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

The US simply needs to review DTV.
One of the reasons for the very long delay was the fact that it really does not work, the simulcasting proved that.
The whole point of simulcasting was that people would transition to this new service willingly.
Then it was suggested that the temporary channels did not have full power and this was the reason.
Finally, transition, and it still does not work well.
For 1 and 1/2 years we have been on the nationwide DTV transition and still do not have it right.
http://www.dtv.gov/

[W4RLR]

Hello.

When I was in San Antonio for a week, I was to the west of the city center. Coming into town from the east, I noticed the rather large antenna farm north of I-10 and made a mental note of it. When I parked my fifth-wheel travel trailer on my hilltop site at Lackland AFB, I aimed the Winegard batwing antenna at the antenna farm on the other side of San Antonio. There were more DTV stations than I could possibly watch, about half programming in Spanish. Line of sight for the DirecTV dish in the dome on the roof was great, not that many trees in that part of Texas.

When the wife and I came back to the trailer every night, it was being like home. Since San Antonio seems to be in a bowl surrounded by hills, unless you live near downtown, I can't see how anyone could have a problem with TV reception, save for the occasional C-5 flying overhead from Lackland's flightline, which my trailer was parked under. I considered the noise the sound of freedom.

(this was my imitation of a Rudy post. Everything in the post is true. Not a personal attack, just an observation of writing style)

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

As I pointed out, Downtown is one area with a lot of trouble.
The other, just outside loop 1604 near I-35 is also an issue.
I am not saying that it does not work, just that in the 2 places I happen to hang it does not work well.
And, armband jogging radios are not out.

[kd8dey]

We got screwed. The TV market was pretty much saturated so they had to change the game........
It's all part of government and Big Business.

[NQ6U]

It's all part of government and Big Busines.

Hello.

No, it's the fault of Mossad and Bell Helicopter.

[W1GUH]

Oh, my freaquin' gopod...

What is with all you people that have an apparent need to gripe about HDTV?

Both here and on the 'zed I've read comments about HDTV that are complete nonsense to those of us who have HDTV capability and are THRILLED with the high quality video and audio we're receiving. And I, and everyone else who receives TV OTA signals in an urban, multi-path laden area, really, really appreciate how Digital TV completely eliminates our reception problems.

Hey....spring for the bucks...take a chance...experience current HDTV in your home and appreciate that yes, they got it right, at least for now. The resolution of the video is stunning....and -- for those of you putting down what you saw...watch it on a decent receiver, already.

[kd8dey]

Oh, my freaquin' gopod...

What is with all you people that have an apparent need go gripe about HDTV?

Both here and on the 'zed I've read comments about HDTV that are complete nonsense to those of us who have HDTV capability and are THRILLED with the high quality video and audio we're receiving. And I, and everyone else who receives TV OTA signals in an urban, multi-path laden area, really, really appreciate how Digital TV completely eliminates our reception problems.

Hey....spring for the bucks...take a chance...experience current HDTV in your home and appreciate that yes, they got it right, at least for now. The resolution of the video is stunning....and -- for those of you putting down what you saw...watch it on a decent receiver, already.

Yup, HDTV either works great or your screwed with pictures freezing for minutes at a time, interupted by local aircraft, or no signal at all where you were once able to pick the analog station up "crystal clear".
Gone are the days when you tried to do a little TV "DX" to see what distant stations you could pick up with the winter weather changes etc......

[W4RLR]

Hello.

As I pointed out, Downtown is one area with a lot of trouble.
The other, just outside loop 1604 near I-35 is also an issue.
I am not saying that it does not work, just that in the 2 places I happen to hang it does not work well.
And, armband jogging radios are not out. I can understand 1604 and I-35, from what I saw that area is in a hole as well.

I've put San Antonio on my list of places I would go to if I had to leave Florida.

[KA5PIU]

I can understand 1604 and I-35, from what I saw that area is in a hole as well.

I've put San Antonio on my list of places I would go to if I had to leave Florida.

Hello.

At one time Florida was a wonderful place to live, at one time.
The trouble was that developers wanted to build on, if not in, the beach.
So, 2 things were done.
First off, they decided that beach front is private property.
Second, in order to cut insurance costs for the condos they set insurance rates statewide, and since housing so close to the ocean is GOING to get damaged at every major hurricane there are always massive losses, that are paid for by all of Florida.
Add to that the massive losses in real estate and thus loss in revenue to the government and you have another problem.
Now, to live in Florida is expensive, and for what? the beaches are no longer open, pretty much the whole reason for living in Florida.

[KG4CGC]

the beaches are no longer open
Prove it.

[KA5PIU]

Prove it.

Hello.

http://www.floridakeysnews.info/florida-keys-beaches.php
There are public beaches, public parks and municipal property, that type of thing, but for the most part public beach front access anywhere near any metropolitan area is crowded, or private.
From some of the photos here you can see how really close the massive buildings are to the coastline.
http://www.visitflorida.com/beaches
What had made Florida so much of a success, large areas of open beach, is now little different from California.

[KG4CGC]

So you agree that to say that the beaches "are no longer open" is not accurate.

[W2NAP]

Yup, HDTV either works great or your screwed with pictures freezing for minutes at a time, interupted by local aircraft, or no signal at all where you were once able to pick the analog station up "crystal clear".
Gone are the days when you tried to do a little TV "DX" to see what distant stations you could pick up with the winter weather changes etc......

amen.

IMHO the DTV is shit. should have left it analog

[kb2crk]

with all OTA tv being quite a distance from my house the DTV experience has left me with nothing to receive.
hdtv is nice on the satalite though.

[ka8ncr]

FloTV and MobiTV are subscriber-based services, that work on 4G cell networks, not regular OTA broadcasts.

I have a pocket-sized TV that works just fine. And, it cost me just over $100. Works fine while I'm driving too.

FloTV is a dedicated service out of band from the 4G network. It's on old TV channel 55.

The ATSC mobile works pretty well. Of course, they're already partnering up with stations to form an alliance that will essentially make it a subscription service. I don't see how they think they can make it work where Qualcomm failed. People just don't want another monthly bill for content.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I agree, FloTV should have been a mixed content provider from the beginning, with some content free and other subscription.
Failing that, have all of the broadcasters in a given area pool resources and provide something like this, but with fewer channels and greater resolution, standard TV quality in a mobile devices friendly digital format.
Have an average quality stereo audio channel that can easily be received by portable devices.

And, by free beaches I mean both in cost, in quite a few of the Florida public parks there is now an entrance fee and perhaps a parking fee, beach safety fee, the whole bit, And the popular beaches are, well, popular, you are not all that free to move about with the massive noisy crowds.
I kid you not, I could not hear the ocean over all of the noise.
So by free, by 2 criteria of mine quite a bit of the Florida beach line is not free.

[PA5COR]

I buildt my own dish ( 2 meter size) and Stereo reciever, Feedhorn and polariser 23 years back in analog times and all of 3 satellites up here from 50 east to 55 west... with a whopping 23 channels over those satellites...
Got a lnbc of 2.4 dB Nf then, the state of the art LNB then.


Now still on satellite reception, just 1.1 meter dish 0.3 dB Nf Invacom LNBF 5000+ tv Channels, and a gaggle radio channels.
No need for cable or terrestrial DTV.
Watched free for years hacking encryption as hobby, but lost interest in it.

[KG4CGC]

Hello.

And, by free beaches I mean both in cost, in quite a few of the Florida public parks there is now an entrance fee and perhaps a parking fee, beach safety fee, the whole bit, And the popular beaches are, well, popular, you are not all that free to move about with the massive noisy crowds.
I kid you not, I could not hear the ocean over all of the noise.
So by free, by 2 criteria of mine quite a bit of the Florida beach line is not free.
You said, "are no longer open" so, that means closed.

I said purple but I really meant orange.
I said sky but I really meant park bench.

[NQ6U]

Talking with Rudy is the conversational-equivalent of an out of body experience.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Yes, open, free.
You can no longer simply drive up to the beach and hang around the ocean.
First, you go into a gate, and pay,
Next, you find a place to park.
Next, you try and find a spot near the water, perhaps moving around a few times.
You can not simply go walking on the beach a mile or so as a rule, as you will run into private beach area.
Contrast this with Texas.
The area from low tide to high tide and 60 feet above belongs to the state.
Want to build a pier? get your local government involved as that is public property.
The hotels have had issue with this as they can not build anything, and I mean anything, within 60 feet of the beach.
Also, there has to be 1200 feet of breakwater clearance and a retaining wall, one of the reasons the hurricane losses are so much less in Texas.
In fact, builders would advertise this closeness to the ocean, pointing out that you can not do this in quite a few states but in Florida this is fine.
The people in Florida are now paying the price.

[KG4CGC]

Oh woe is you.

[W4GPL]

Yes, open, free.
You can no longer simply drive up to the beach and hang around the ocean.
First, you go into a gate, and pay,
Next, you find a place to park.
Next, you try and find a spot near the water, perhaps moving around a few times.Just like Mexico, you've obviously never been to Florida either. This is unfiltered bullshit.

Source: 20+ year former resident of Florida.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Went to Sarasota Florida, nothing was cheap or easy.
Miami is a big city, much like everything in California so I can understand that.
But I contrast this with Corpus Christi or Padre Island Texas.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&expIds=17259,17315,23628,23670,23945,25041,25646,2 6761,26849,27520,27585,27613,27642,27889&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=corpus+christi&cp=2&qe=Y29y&qesig=kpgaeWgm62ufnz9sLlsNjQ&pkc=AFgZ2tn2pq8CxiQOJHd5a6pQaE_jte5v5XeCNg3KOO8dUT Rokgy1QUftoxUZf4WrbJzjSlNH4DgwVpDgzbJ4ajTAecD-2OLH7Q&newwindow=1&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS275&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Corpus+Christi,+TX&gl=us&ei=ZcYcTbf9EsWblgem45TPCw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA
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http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&expIds=17259,17315,23628,23670,23945,25041,25646,2 6761,26849,27520,27585,27613,27642,27889&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=corpus+christi&cp=2&qe=Y29y&qesig=kpgaeWgm62ufnz9sLlsNjQ&pkc=AFgZ2tn2pq8CxiQOJHd5a6pQaE_jte5v5XeCNg3KOO8dUT Rokgy1QUftoxUZf4WrbJzjSlNH4DgwVpDgzbJ4ajTAecD-2OLH7Q&newwindow=1&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS275&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Corpus+Christi,+TX&gl=us&ei=ZcYcTbf9EsWblgem45TPCw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA
I can understand there are differences but to me when I look around and find things like seagulls and sand dollars and can walk for miles I am happy.
Look at the maps and contrast them with places in Florida and you will see that there are no massive developments right on the waterfront in Texas like in Florida.
In fact, look at the "National Seashore" and all of the protected islands.
There are dozens of islands that now have wildlife that at one time was common across the nation but can now only be found in some places.
And, yes, I am a truck driver who was at one time running the 48, I have been to all of the big cities dozens of times.
Florida is drowning in it's success.
Miami is now very much like NYC, a packed city with plenty to do and see but clearly a big city.