Bell 47 APU engine.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I was finally able to find, and buy, the correct engine used in the Bell 47 for an APU.
Some may think this sounds odd, a 2 cylinder 3 HP engine, but here it is. :lol:
http://saturnsurplus.com/engine/twocyl.htm
If you research the NSN number you will find that this is a good match.

[n2ize]

The Bell 47 has a separate engine powered APU ? You sure ? I have never heard of this on the smaller piston powered helicopters. I have heard of it on some of the jet equipt helicopters used for starting and aux power and transmission function.

BTW, not a bad price. Wonder if I could adapt one or more to a generator.

[NQ6U]

The Bell 47 has a separate engine powered APU ? You sure ? I have never heard of this on the smaller piston powered helicopters. I have heard of it on some of the jet equipt helicopters used for starting and aux power and transmission function.

Where did you get the info that the engine was use on the Bell 47, Rudy?


BTW, not a bad price. Wonder if I could adapt one or more to a generator.

Seems possible, but it would depend on whether or not you could couple the engine crankshaft to the generator. 3HP is equal to roughly 2.25 KW, although you're not gonna get the full power out of course.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Yes, depending on the aircraft they may be equipped with an APU for "Hand Starting".
Even the CH-47 can be "Hand Started" by way of manual hydraulic pumps.
Remember that aircraft normally have very limited battery power, perhaps 30 minutes, so if you want to run things like radios (Tube type) while on the ground awaiting instructions you need something other than the battery.
fixed wing of this era did not need this as they need a runway and as such have at least a semi-improved facility.
A helicopter can land nearly anywhere but is limited on fuel so a 3 HP engine makes sense and being a 2 piston job means it is far quieter than a single.

[n2ize]

Where did you get the info that the engine was use on the Bell 47, Rudy?

He isn't implying that the 2 cylinder was used for powering the main rotor and tail rotor in flight. On the Bell 37 that is generally handled by a Lycoming 200-300 Hp engine. he's implying that it is used to power the APU. But, I have never seen one on a Bell 47...unless it was retrofitted perhaps which I have never seen. Now, I'll admit, I've only been up close to about 2 bell 47's so maybe I didn't notice is.




Seems possible, but it would depend on whether or not you could couple the engine crankshaft to the generator. 3HP is equal to roughly 2.25 KW, although you're not gonna get the full power out of course.

yeah, just wondering how it would compare to the typical single cylinder Tecumseh or Briggs & Stratton driving a generator.

[NQ6U]

He isn't implying that the 2 cylinder was used for powering the main rotor and tail rotor in flight. On the Bell 37 that is generally handled by a Lycoming 200-300 Hp engine. he's implying that it is used to power the APU.

I realized that. I mean, it's pretty obvious that it takes more than 2HP to power a helicopter. I just wondered where he got the information that the engine was used on the Bell 47 at all. It says nothing of the sort on the linked Web page.


yeah, just wondering how it would compare to the typical single cylinder Tecumseh or Briggs & Stratton driving a generator.

Better, for sure. Two cylinders is nice--one power pulse for every crankshaft revolution, for one thing.

[n2ize]

Hello.

Yes, depending on the aircraft they may be equipped with an APU for "Hand Starting".

How are you defining "hand starting" for a full sized heli ? For a jet or piston MODEL RC heli it would mean hand cranking something directly or indirectly attached to the motor crankshaft or turbine in order to start the motor... But even most modern RC heli's use some sort of automated electric start if they are piston or jet powered. Only diff is the electronics and FADEC are usually powered direct from a battery where as on a full size they are using a generator/magneto.


Even the CH-47 can be "Hand Started" by way of manual hydraulic pumps.
Remember that aircraft normally have very limited battery power, perhaps 30 minutes, so if you want to run things like radios (Tube type) while on the ground awaiting instructions you need something other than the battery.

Right... which is where a magneto comes in. I've just never heard of a separate engine powered unit on any of the Bell 47 series. I don;t see it listed in any of the parts lists.

http://bell47parts.com/PartsList.aspx


fixed wing of this era did not need this as they need a runway and as such have at least a semi-improved facility.

And yet they generally have a magneto to provide power to the electronics, accesories, charging batteries, etc.


A helicopter can land nearly anywhere but is limited on fuel so a 3 HP engine makes sense and being a 2 piston job means it is far quieter than a single.

huh ? But the helicopter is not running on a 3hp engine. It is not going to provide anywhere near enough power for lift and flight.

Some of the newer helicopters, like the Bell 407 are relatively quiet but that has a lot to do with new main rotor designs, rotor head speeds, etc. takeoff and landing area don;t mean squat. true a heli can take of and land vertically because the rotor is constantly spinning and generating enough lift regardless of the actual forward speed of the aircraft (although forward speed will impact lift at a given pitch). A fixed wing needs forward speed for lift. But in either case its coming from an engine... jet or piston... that is a lot bigger than 3 Hp.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

APU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_power_unit
The only thing it is used for is running equipment on the ground while the engine is off and to assist in starting.
You can not easily crank the main rotor of a helicopter as you can spin the prop of a fixed wing by hand.
However you can wrap a rope around the front spindle of that small engine and pull.
And this means of starting was quite common in the era that the Bell 47 came out in.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/general-vintage-tractors/16114-what-pony-motor.html
Batteries were not as compact as today nor as reliable and the electrical load of tube type radios just on receive was something to deal with.
And remember we a talking VHF here, at least a dozen tubes plus vibrator.
If the aircraft was equipped with another radio simply double the current.
Remember that a helicopter was used as a scout and so radio contact with both the ground and other aircraft was vital.
Just like tractors no longer you pony motors but simply better batteries and starters as a rule, most aircraft no longer have the small engines but good batteries and solid state radios.
But if you want to hand start a helicopter this is just about the only way.

[NQ6U]

Rudy, I know what an APU is and the other link you provided was all about farm tractors, not helicopters. I'm not saying that the little motor you bought isn't from a Bell 47--I honestly don't know--I was only asking you from where you got the information that it is.

[NA4BH]

Rudy, I know what an APU is and the other link you provided was all about farm tractors, not helicopters. I'm not saying that the little motor you bought isn't from a Bell 47--I honestly don't know--I was only asking you from where you got the information that it is.

Farm tractors, helicopters, they are both the same thing. They both are used outside and have a loud motor.

[W7XF]

It must be an exclusive to Cowthief's pink helicopters. :lol:

[n2ize]

Hello.

APU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_power_unit
The only thing it is used for is running equipment on the ground while the engine is off and to assist in starting.
You can not easily crank the main rotor of a helicopter as you can spin the prop of a fixed wing by hand.
However you can wrap a rope around the front spindle of that small engine and pull.
And this means of starting was quite common in the era that the Bell 47 came out in.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/general-vintage-tractors/16114-what-pony-motor.html
Batteries were not as compact as today nor as reliable and the electrical load of tube type radios just on receive was something to deal with.
And remember we a talking VHF here, at least a dozen tubes plus vibrator.
If the aircraft was equipped with another radio simply double the current.
Remember that a helicopter was used as a scout and so radio contact with both the ground and other aircraft was vital.
Just like tractors no longer you pony motors but simply better batteries and starters as a rule, most aircraft no longer have the small engines but good batteries and solid state radios.
But if you want to hand start a helicopter this is just about the only way.


Okay, I get what you're saying about performing a "hand start" albeit direct or indirect of obtaining power from a self powered APU. I just don't recall the unit (engine) you referenced here as being part of any model 47 I've ever seen. I suppose it could be adapted to work as such but, it's added weight on a light helicopter.

Otherwise it seems like an interesting surplus utility engine.

[NQ6U]

Rudy, did you by any chance mean the Boeing CH-47 helicopter rather than the Bell 47?

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

The original Bell 47 was equipped with a Franklin O-335 or 6AC engine.
This was equipped with a 22 amp 6 volt generator.
Now look up the power requirements for radio(s) that were fitted to the military helicopters in that era.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_O-335
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ARC-5
Now look at the original operations manual for the Bell 47, available at the Bell website.
http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/index.cfm
In order to Transmit the RADIO GENSET MUST BE OPERATING.

[NQ6U]

Can't find the manual at the Bell Web site, Rudy. Since you've already downloaded it, can you give me a direct URL?

[NA4BH]

Is this what it goes in?

http://internetsiao.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/doraemon-rc-helicopter1.jpg

[n2ize]

Can't find the manual at the Bell Web site, Rudy. Since you've already downloaded it, can you give me a direct URL?

Thats because Bell no longer supports that particular series.

[W3MIV]

I can find no evidence of any APU on a Bell 47, not even on the experimental HX-13F fitted with a French turbine. The CH-47 Chinook, however, does have an APU. In so far as running radios is concerned, I know of no aircraft that ever needed to continue to run an APU (as a normal function) in order to utilize the communications (or other avionics) fitted to that aircraft. The APU is solely used as a battery replacement for those operations that would put an excessive strain on the normal batteries. Most aircraft depend upon ground power while on the ground -- this is sometimes in the form of an APU on wheels like a generator that is plugged into the aircraft and switches over the onboard electrical systems to the external source. The internal APU is started so that the external power source may be disconnected and the engines started so that the aircraft's generators may be brought on line. Once that is done, the APU is shut down.

I would be very happy to see some source of authority citing this mythical APU on the very small, two-seat Bell H-47.

[n2ize]

I can find no evidence of any APU on a Bell 47, not even on the experimental HX-13F fitted with a French turbine. The CH-47 Chinook, however, does have an APU. In so far as running radios is concerned, I know of no aircraft that ever needed to continue to run an APU (as a normal function) in order to utilize the communications (or other avionics) fitted to that aircraft. The APU is solely used as a battery replacement for those operations that would put an excessive strain on the normal batteries. Most aircraft depend upon ground power while on the ground -- this is sometimes in the form of an APU on wheels like a generator that is plugged into the aircraft and switches over the onboard electrical systems to the external source. The internal APU is started so that the external power source may be disconnected and the engines started so that the aircraft's generators may be brought on line. Once that is done, the APU is shut down.

I would be very happy to see some source of authority citing this mythical APU on the very small, two-seat Bell H-47.

Simple answer. there is / never was an on board APU on a model 47. However, as you pointed out, it is possible to employ an APU on wheels while on the ground/ Like the one that is being used to start up this bell-47 while on the ground.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akw3bFLX5AA

[NQ6U]

Man, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be flying that chopper after a start like that.

[n2ize]

Man, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be flying that chopper after a start like that.

I don't think he flew it at that stage. From what it says in the video it was sitting unused for a long time.

[NQ6U]

Rudy, you still haven't answered my question: where did you get the info that the engine you bought was part of an APU from a Bell 47?

[W3MIV]

The "cart" in that video is an APU. That is the sort commonly used for small aircraft. The reason for the APU is also evident in the length of time it took to get the engine running smoothly -- no ordinary battery could have continued to provide the needed amount of current.

The owner of that 47 seems to have a penchant for excitement. The aircraft in the background is an Aero Commander AC520, which was noted for wing spar failures. Audie Murphy was killed when his AC640 came apart at altitude over southwestern VA. Lots and lots of ADs out on the Aero Commander line. That's why Rockwell dropped it.

[W1GUH]

I'd wager a good percentage of us need some hand-starting from time to time. :neener::bbh:

[w2amr]

Rudy, you still haven't answered my question: where did you get the info that the engine you bought was part of an APU from a Bell 47?Is the correct answer, I made it up?

[NQ6U]

Is the correct answer, I made it up?

I'm beginning to think so, yes.

[NA4BH]

I will take "MADE UP CRAP" for $200 Alex

http://www.theindependentpublisher.com/weblog/archives/jeopardy-powerpoint.gif

[w2amr]

I will take "MADE UP CRAP" for $200 Alex

http://www.theindependentpublisher.com/weblog/archives/jeopardy-powerpoint.gif
:rofl::bowdown:

[n2ize]

The "cart" in that video is an APU. That is the sort commonly used for small aircraft. The reason for the APU is also evident in the length of time it took to get the engine running smoothly -- no ordinary battery could have continued to provide the needed amount of current.

You can say that again. Also, after watching that start I wouldn't fly that thing until I thoroughly checked out the fuel and ignition system and tested it thoroughly on the ground, Last thing I would want is to be moving along at 2000 feet and suddenly hear that engine backfire and sputter and flameout..

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I was not fully aware of the final decision until today (Friday).
Bell had discontinued all support for the model 47 helicopter the day I posted the link.
The reason has to do with end of life for aircraft in general.
What started in the air transport category now extends to all commercial aircraft.
From this point on no Bell model 47 aircraft in our fleet may be flown for any reason.
All documents are to be turned in except those that have been cleared for personal use.
This has no effect on others, but without direct support from Bell the party is over.

[KE7DKN]

I was not fully aware of the final decision until today (Friday).
Bell had discontinued all support for the model 47 helicopter the day I posted the link.

What an amazing coincidence. :roll:

[kb2crk]

Hello.

I was not fully aware of the final decision until today (Friday).
Bell had discontinued all support for the model 47 helicopter the day I posted the link.
The reason has to do with end of life for aircraft in general.
What started in the air transport category now extends to all commercial aircraft.
From this point on no Bell model 47 aircraft in our fleet may be flown for any reason.
All documents are to be turned in except those that have been cleared for personal use.
This has no effect on others, but without direct support from Bell the party is over.


rudy
bell transfered support to this company back in the spring. http://www.scottsbell47.com/
so bell has not supported the 47 in quite a few months.
the cow pies are getting deeper and deeper.

[n2ize]

Hello.

I was not fully aware of the final decision until today (Friday).
Bell had discontinued all support for the model 47 helicopter the day I posted the link.


Bell has discontinued the support for the Bell 47 for quite some time now. Support is now handled by the company that CRK referred to above.


The reason has to do with end of life for aircraft in general.

The reason is that it is an older model and Bell is an innovative and leading aircraft company incorporating the latest in new ideas and designs into their current civilian, commercial and military aircraft designs.


What started in the air transport category now extends to all commercial aircraft.
From this point on no Bell model 47 aircraft in our fleet may be flown for any reason.

If you have a fleet of commercial aircraft I am surprised you haven't upgraded to newer aircraft by now. In any event I don't believe this to be true that Bell 47's are grounded.. There are still Bell 47 models throughout the USA (although not many) being operated for a variety of services including civilian, commercial services, aerial surveillance, aerial tours, crop & insect spraying, transport, photography, and many other services. As long at the aircraft is properly maintained and certified it can be flown. It is no longer supported directly through Bell / Textron. Instead support, training, parts, etc. are now handled through Scotts.



All documents are to be turned in except those that have been cleared for personal use.
This has no effect on others, but without direct support from Bell the party is over.

I am pretty sure this is not true. But its easy enough to find out next time I speak with m a friend of mine who is expert on this subject.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

Read the website, 11/09/10 was the parts update, bell turned over all remaining parts stock.
This was 10 days ago.
The reason for not "upgrading" is real simple, name any other helicopter that can fly In a sandstorm.
And yes, I was aware of the changes but the contract for support was with Bell helicopters.
The reason all documents are to be turned in is to negotiate a new contract.
The reason the aircraft are not to be flown is again, no contract, liability issues as our insurance is written with the understanding that there is an ongoing contract.

[kb2crk]

Hello.

Read the website, 11/09/10 was the parts update, bell turned over all remaining parts stock.
This was 10 days ago.
The reason for not "upgrading" is real simple, name any other helicopter that can fly In a sandstorm.
And yes, I was aware of the changes but the contract for support was with Bell helicopters.
The reason all documents are to be turned in is to negotiate a new contract.
The reason the aircraft are not to be flown is again, no contract, liability issues as our insurance is written with the understanding that there is an ongoing contract.

and bell handed support over to scottbell in february and scott was not fcc certified until august. so from february until now you have been flying with out insurance as your contract with bell would have been null and void as they no longer supported the model 47. bell and scott would have notified your company as the hand over would have had contractual consequenses. so either bell helicopters is full of shit or someone else is....

[n2ize]

There is no problem. Scotts handles the support. Keep those 47's flyin.

[KA5PIU]

and bell handed support over to scottbell in february and scott was not fcc certified until august. so from february until now you have been flying with out insurance as your contract with bell would have been null and void as they no longer supported the model 47. bell and scott would have notified your company as the hand over would have had contractual consequenses. so either bell helicopters is full of shit or someone else is....

Hello.

Correct, and there IS a problem!
Actually the insurance carrier gave us a renewal based on what Bell gave us.
We are now waiting for an answer but it would appear that this new firm will simply continue with the contract.
I went by the office around 3 pm today and there was no one there, everybody was gone.

[W3MIV]

I went by the office around 3 pm today and there was no one there, everybody was gone.

Cigarettes still burning in the ashtrays; steaming coffee mugs still on the desks; back door slightly ajar...

[n2ize]

years ago when i was down south there was some guy giving helicopter rides and he was using a Bell 47. I wish I took the ride. I always wanted to ride in a 47. I've been in a Jet Ranger but never in a 47. It probably would have been a great ride.

[w2amr]

Cigarettes still burning in the ashtrays; steaming coffee mugs still on the desks; back door slightly ajar...Queue the twilight zone theme.

[NQ6U]

Queue the twilight zone theme.

"Imagine, if you will..."