World War II-era navigation system shut down

[WØTKX]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/?iref=polticker


Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup.

Supporters also argue that the mere existence of Loran makes the GPS satellite system a less attractive target for cyber-thugs, terrorists or future military adversaries.

GPS systems today are used not only for navigation, but also to provide precise timing for ATM machines, cell phone towers, water plants and other enterprises, and positioning information for precision-guided weapons for the military. GPS disruptions can be costly to business, dangerous for travelers, and debilitating to the military.

Supporters of Loran -- short for long range navigation system -- say the system is a near-perfect backup because it provides similar information to GPS, but has dissimilar infrastructure.

[N8YX]

All it's going to take is for China to loft a space capsule full of decent-sized steel balls into a retrograde orbit at the same distance that our GPS satellites use...and you can kiss the the majority of our military's weapons-guidance systems goodbye.

Ditto the lion's share of our aircraft, shipping (commercial and military alike) and anything else which relied on Loran as a backup navaid.

...shuffles off to dig out an old sextant from the spares locker...

[KC2UGV]

All it's going to take is for China to loft a space capsule full of decent-sized steel balls into a retrograde orbit at the same distance that our GPS satellites use...and you can kiss the the majority of our military's weapons-guidance systems goodbye.

Ditto the lion's share of our aircraft, shipping (commercial and military alike) and anything else which relied on Loran as a backup navaid.

...shuffles off to dig out an old sextant from the spares locker...

You do realize the satellites currently get peppered with pretty much the same thing daily, right? Except they get peppered with things traveling about twice the speed of a bullet.

[N8YX]

All it's going to take is for China to loft a space capsule full of decent-sized steel balls into a retrograde orbit at the same distance that our GPS satellites use...and you can kiss the the majority of our military's weapons-guidance systems goodbye.

Ditto the lion's share of our aircraft, shipping (commercial and military alike) and anything else which relied on Loran as a backup navaid.

...shuffles off to dig out an old sextant from the spares locker...

You do realize the satellites currently get peppered with pretty much the same thing daily, right? Except they get peppered with things traveling about twice the speed of a bullet.
Occasional impacts from small debris is survivable. Repetitive impacts from larger - say, half a kg or more - with a closing speed upwards of 8-10 miles per second isn't. Ergo, the comment about "retrograde orbit". It's the only practical way to ensure enough kinetic energy to do the job.

The effect is akin to heavily clothed, helmeted person being hit from 60+ yds by a standard shotshell filled with #10 shot vs a magnum load of #00 or larger buckshot at the same distance.

You'd survive the first. If the shooter is accurate, however, you won't survive the second.

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I agree 100%, the GPS system is our ONLY system for a lot of things now.
But, I see a far simpler problem for GPS.
What if,,, The solar system created an "Event", a massive solar eruption, large enough to disrupt even power lines on earth?
This has happened in the past, no ill effect on plant or animal.
But, with the NavSTAR satellites that are in a near Low Earth Orbit and Would feel the effects of such an event the outcome could easily spell disaster.
Hams, however, would be happy, as conditions for DX would be excellent!

[N5RLR]

Maps. Helping mankind navigate for hundreds of years. :mrgreen:

[N8YX]

Maps. Helping mankind navigate for hundreds of years. :mrgreen:
Think "21st century minivan mom" could figure out how to hold one, let alone read it?

[N5RLR]

Maps. Helping mankind navigate for hundreds of years. :mrgreen:
Think "21st century minivan mom" could figure out how to hold one, let alone read it?
Most likely not; if it isn't on her Blackberry/iPhone/Android/whatever, she's utterly clueless.

But, she can ask directions! Remember, this is what women do; we guys prefer to play Marco Polo. :snicker:

* * * * * * * * * *

I wonder, though, how the Galileo system is going to be when it's finally fully operational. :think

[kb2vxa]

Oh Marco wasn't so dumb. He discovered lo mien, put tomato sauce on it and called it spaghetti. Next time she asks directions send her to lower Manhattan and smile.

[HUGH]

Maps. Helping mankind navigate for hundreds of years. :mrgreen:
Yes, don't throw them away, buy more while they are still available.

All this global positioning stuff came to prominence whilst sunspot activity was at a minimum. It indicates that the politicians, decision-makers and their accountants have little or no technical knowledge.

[ka4dpo]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/?iref=polticker


Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup.

Supporters also argue that the mere existence of Loran makes the GPS satellite system a less attractive target for cyber-thugs, terrorists or future military adversaries.

GPS systems today are used not only for navigation, but also to provide precise timing for ATM machines, cell phone towers, water plants and other enterprises, and positioning information for precision-guided weapons for the military. GPS disruptions can be costly to business, dangerous for travelers, and debilitating to the military.

Supporters of Loran -- short for long range navigation system -- say the system is a near-perfect backup because it provides similar information to GPS, but has dissimilar infrastructure.


That's very true. When GPS became the standard for land navigation throughout the services they stopped teaching land nav using maps. Anyone who was in the service before the 1990's remembers the 50 mil grid square maps and protractors used for land navigation.

A number of years ago I was evaluating a military exercise when two of the armored vehicles under test lost GPS. It was at night and they became hopelessly lost and had to wait for morning for someone to come and get them. When I spoke with the crew memebers I discovered that none of them knew how to use a map and protractor and didn't even have one in their kit. I can see where a solar flare or some enemy could disable the GPS constellation leaving us wandering in circles. Even commercial air carriers rely on it and if it went out they would be in big trouble if they were not in VFR conditions.

[ka4dpo]

Maps. Helping mankind navigate for hundreds of years. :mrgreen:
Yes, don't throw them away, buy more while they are still available.

All this global positioning stuff came to prominence whilst sunspot activity was at a minimum. It indicates that the politicians, decision-makers and their accountants have little or no technical knowledge.

That's not quite true. I worked on several GPS designs at Harris Corp in the early 80's when it was a big secret and there were some satellites in use by the Navy and Air Force at the time for positioning of weapons. The sunspots were in full swing while we were doing all of this stuff. It's just that the Milsats are hardened and the commercial ones are not, that's why they cost so much less to build. Also, military GPS and commercial GPS are not the same in a number of ways.

[kb2vxa]

But what about that Chinese guy up there with a slingshot and a bag of marbles?

[KA5PIU]

Maps. Helping mankind navigate for hundreds of years. :mrgreen:
Yes, don't throw them away, buy more while they are still available.

All this global positioning stuff came to prominence whilst sunspot activity was at a minimum. It indicates that the politicians, decision-makers and their accountants have little or no technical knowledge.

That's not quite true. I worked on several GPS designs at Harris Corp in the early 80's when it was a big secret and there were some satellites in use by the Navy and Air Force at the time for positioning of weapons. The sunspots were in full swing while we were doing all of this stuff. It's just that the Milsats are hardened and the commercial ones are not, that's why they cost so much less to build. Also, military GPS and commercial GPS are not the same in a number of ways.

Hello.

The last major solar event was in 1958, way overdue for another one.
http://www.solarstorms.org/SRefStorms.html

[HUGH]

Maps. Helping mankind navigate for hundreds of years. :mrgreen:

All this global positioning stuff came to prominence whilst sunspot activity was at a minimum. It indicates that the politicians, decision-makers and their accountants have little or no technical knowledge.

That's not quite true. I worked on several GPS designs at Harris Corp in the early 80's when it was a big secret and there were some satellites in use by the Navy and Air Force at the time for positioning of weapons. The sunspots were in full swing while we were doing all of this stuff. It's just that the Milsats are hardened and the commercial ones are not, that's why they cost so much less to build. Also, military GPS and commercial GPS are not the same in a number of ways.

It was the mass market I was thinking of. Most of are blissfully unaware of progress in the military communications world.
How does the new submarine positioning work? Most of the LF and VLF communications systems seem to have been closed except for one or two running for historic purposes.

[W5GA]

It was the mass market I was thinking of. Most of are blissfully unaware of progress in the military communications world.
[highlight:3w02b9fg]How does the new submarine positioning work?[/highlight:3w02b9fg] Most of the LF and VLF communications systems seem to have been closed except for one or two running for historic purposes.
By some VERY accurate inertial nav systems, which are unfortunately updated by GPS fixes.
In the 80's, I brought a brand new boat out of the construction yard in Virginia. We navigated through the Panama Canal and up the west coast to San Diego without updating our inertial system along the way. At the end of the journey, after we were tied to the pier, it was off by about 50 feet. The longer you run without an update, the greater the error becomes. A tad inconvenient for a platform capable of a nuclear weapons launch. Without GPS for an accurate launch point, all those multi-billion dollar longe range defense systems are pretty useless. They can't get where they are going if they don't know precisely where they start from.

[w3bny]

It was the mass market I was thinking of. Most of are blissfully unaware of progress in the military communications world.
[highlight:1gupqpjc]How does the new submarine positioning work?[/highlight:1gupqpjc] Most of the LF and VLF communications systems seem to have been closed except for one or two running for historic purposes.
By some VERY accurate inertial nav systems, which are unfortunately updated by GPS fixes.
In the 80's, I brought a brand new boat out of the construction yard in Virginia. We navigated through the Panama Canal and up the west coast to San Diego without updating our inertial system along the way. At the end of the journey, after we were tied to the pier, it was off by about 50 feet. The longer you run without an update, the greater the error becomes. A tad inconvenient for a platform capable of a nuclear weapons launch. Without GPS for an accurate launch point, all those multi-billion dollar longe range defense systems are pretty useless. They can't get where they are going if they don't know precisely where they start from.

How accurate does one need to be with MIRV delivering 8+ 100kT weapons. Last I checked. Just one 100kT TN in the same state will make your afternoon pretty sucky. Pop it high enough it will make oh...most of the continental US's year pretty damn crappy. (EMP)

[ka4dpo]

It was the mass market I was thinking of. Most of are blissfully unaware of progress in the military communications world.
[highlight:1a36qg68]How does the new submarine positioning work?[/highlight:1a36qg68] Most of the LF and VLF communications systems seem to have been closed except for one or two running for historic purposes.
By some VERY accurate inertial nav systems, which are unfortunately updated by GPS fixes.
In the 80's, I brought a brand new boat out of the construction yard in Virginia. We navigated through the Panama Canal and up the west coast to San Diego without updating our inertial system along the way. At the end of the journey, after we were tied to the pier, it was off by about 50 feet. The longer you run without an update, the greater the error becomes. A tad inconvenient for a platform capable of a nuclear weapons launch. Without GPS for an accurate launch point, all those multi-billion dollar longe range defense systems are pretty useless. They can't get where they are going if they don't know precisely where they start from.

How accurate does one need to be with MIRV delivering 8+ 100kT weapons. Last I checked. Just one 100kT TN in the same state will make your afternoon pretty sucky. Pop it high enough it will make oh...most of the continental US's year pretty damn crappy. (EMP)


Kind of like horse shoes and hand grenades. :homer:

[KA5PIU]

Hello.

I had to do some reading, books and the like.
The concern over a major geomagnetic storm is not so much the direct electrical effects on man-made objects but the physical effects.
You see, if the storm is large enough it will drag on the satellites, de-orbiting them.
Low Earth Orbit satellites would be the first to feel the effects.
How much of an effect there will be no one knows but there is no question whatsoever that this would not be good.