how much VE fraud is there, anyway?

[n6hcm]

i was looking at a wish list for 2010 on eham and, of course, it's littered with "bring back the CW requirement" and "Testing to occur only at FCC Federal buildings eliminating the VE program and its fraud" ... my question is "is there really that much fraud in the VE program? i've only heard of one or two instances since i've been licensed (not all that much time) ...

[ad4mg]

i was looking at a wish list for 2010 on eham and, of course, it's littered with "bring back the CW requirement" and "Testing to occur only at FCC Federal buildings eliminating the VE program and its fraud" ... my question is "is there really that much fraud in the VE program? i've only heard of one or two instances since i've been licensed (not all that much time) ...
I am a W5YI VE, have been since 1992. I was part of a large VE team (now disbanded) here headed by Dow, WA4HMX, and Darlene, AC4VE, and the integrity of the group was without question. There were ARRL VE groups operating in the area at the same time, and I never heard an ill word spoken of them either.

It seems to me that the isolated incidents given so much attention are the exception to the rule. I firmly believe VE teams are, for the most part, impeccably honest people who follow the rules very carefully.

[W3WN]

i was looking at a wish list for 2010 on eham and, of course, it's littered with "bring back the CW requirement" and "Testing to occur only at FCC Federal buildings eliminating the VE program and its fraud" ... my question is "is there really that much fraud in the VE program? i've only heard of one or two instances since i've been licensed (not all that much time) ...Has there been fraud in the VE program? Yes.
Is it widespread, or frequent? Not that we know of.

Most of the incidents I've heard of have been isolated, and have been few and far between. Like many other claims made by certain recalcitrants on the eHam and QRZ boards, or various ham radio email reflectors, there is little actual data from the last ~25 years to back up their claims... especially when compared to the tens of thousands (or more) of test sessions that have taken place since the FCC bailed out of the examination business.

The bottom line is that the FCC has no plans to resume amateur (and other) examinations, cost being the biggest factor. It's an expense that they haven't budgeted and have no plans to budget... or do we really want to revert to paying a testing fee to cover their costs?

And do we really want to go back to quarterly (or less) testing in one city in a region? During a work day?
And do we really want to eliminate places that don't happen to have "federal" buildings... could you imagine holding a work day all day test session in the back of the local post office?

For all their complaining, these clowns really don't think things through.

BTW, how much do you want to bet that most of the "fraud" complaints cited involve ARRL VEC sessions?

[WX7P]

BTW, how much do you want to bet that most of the "fraud" complaints cited involve ARRL VEC sessions?

Haven't the vast majority of complaints been against W5YI sanctioned groups?

[KJ3N]

BTW, how much do you want to bet that most of the "fraud" complaints cited involve ARRL VEC sessions?

Haven't the vast majority of complaints been against W5YI sanctioned groups?
Yes.

[W3WN]

BTW, how much do you want to bet that most of the "fraud" complaints cited involve ARRL VEC sessions?

Haven't the vast majority of complaints been against W5YI sanctioned groups?
Yes, which is my subtle point. Most of the people complaining have a tendency to try and pin anything wrong that happens on the League, regardless of the facts of the matter.

[ad4mg]

BTW, how much do you want to bet that most of the "fraud" complaints cited involve ARRL VEC sessions?

Haven't the vast majority of complaints been against W5YI sanctioned groups?
I'm W5YI VE-13248, of the Dark Side.

Be afraid ... :lol:

There were quite a few complaints against W5YI groups, especially those in Puerto Rico. I still insist that the ratio of honest to dishonest VE's & VEC's is comparable to any segment of society.

[n0iu]

Oh yeah, let's go back and let the FCC do the testing. Like there is no fraud or corruption in the federal government!

I found this on The Monkey Cage: http://www.themonkeycage.org/2009/03/post_177.html


From the responses of more than 200,000 federal employees, the OPM calculates agency-by-agency scores on four dimensions: leadership (which indicates how favorably employees of an agency regard their leaders), performance (which indicates the extent to which employees believe their agency promotes improvements in processes, products, and services), talent (which indicates the degree to which employees think their agency has the talent needed to achieve its goals), and job satisfaction (which indicates how satisfied employees are with their jobs). In the 2008 survey, the results of which were released a couple of months ago, 37 agencies were rated.

In terms of leadership, the FCC ranked 29.
In terms of performance, the FCC did a little better at 25th place.
In terms of talent, the FCC did quite a bit better coming in at 19.
In terms of job satisfaction, the FCC ranked last, DEAD LAST!!!


Combining the four sets of scores into a single standardized score produces the following:The FCC ranks 32 out of 37!

That's what we need, some guy who really REALLY hates his job giving amateur radio tests. The FCC pretty much consistently ranks as one of the poorest run federal agencies. I'd trust the VE system of private volunteers over paid federal employees any day!

[suddenseer]

I was a ARRL ve I think my credentials have expired due to non participation. I also have W5YI VE credetials as well, both sice 1994. I was the contact VE for a local conbined 2 club group for 5 years. I was unaware of any fraud, but had 3 complaints from sore losers.
Both VEC's backed me, and the other 2 VE's who were responsible. One of the sore losers confronted W5YI at Dayton Hamvention. I burned out from the 8x a year hassle. I quit.

The old farts who bitched about the demise of spark gap also did not consider a VE examined ham to be a real ham. VE's have been around forever. I got my novice from a VE. Back then any General class or higher over 21 years old could give the novice exam. The written exam was mailed to them. They administered the receiving, and sending code test. They broke the seal on the exam envelope like a big deal, and handed you the exam, and answer sheet. When you were finished, they placed it in the mailing envelope. Then you had to wait 6-8 weeks for a license, or a failure letter in the mail.

I would be curious if there is any data of FCC exams by federal employees that were fraud stained? There was a time when at Federal buildings, and post offices, the exams were conducted by post office employees. I am not sure if they graded them.

I just remembered a very caustic ham who would tie up local vhf repeaters a while back. He seemed to go out of his way of being anti social, and anti establishment. He bragged about cheating on his codeless tech exam. He was one day ordered by the FCC to show up and retest at any non-W5YI VEC. I guess he complied. He dissappeared as well. I guess one should watch what they say on a repeater. I really do not think he cheated. He was just trying to piss people off (and succeeded).

Other than that I am not aware of any fraud in a VE exam that I was part of. I probably participated in several hundred exam sessions including several years at Dayton Hamvention. (it was a free ticket).

[N7YA]

Remember that its eHam...the central den of old guys complaining about everything under the moon and stars. I have seen only a few instances of a thread, no matter how friendly or innocent it is, not turning into a slugfest with trolls and over reactionary volleys being lobbed back and forth.

I stopped going there because i always know how a thread will turn out.

[W3WN]

Remember that its eHam...the central den of old guys complaining about everything under the moon and stars. I have seen only a few instances of a thread, no matter how friendly or innocent it is, not turning into a slugfest with trolls and over reactionary volleys being lobbed back and forth.

I stopped going there because i always know how a thread will turn out.
I think my "favorite" :troll: over there used to be a certain 1 land 1x2, who owns a company developing "fractal antennas," who always had to have the last word on any subject.

His pinnacle was when he loudly denounced anyone who "harvested" a SK call... stomped all over the thread against anyone who disagreed with him... but was outed as having done exactly that himself.

Real chip off the old block.

[N2NH]

It seems to me that the isolated incidents given so much attention are the exception to the rule. I firmly believe VE teams are, for the most part, impeccably honest people who follow the rules very carefully.

I totally agree. I have been on 3 VE teams (all ARRL was an ex-W5YI VE too) and all were above reproach. An honest mistake can happen, but that's why there's 3 VEs looking it over. It always gets caught.

[N7YA]

Remember that its eHam...the central den of old guys complaining about everything under the moon and stars. I have seen only a few instances of a thread, no matter how friendly or innocent it is, not turning into a slugfest with trolls and over reactionary volleys being lobbed back and forth.

I stopped going there because i always know how a thread will turn out.
I think my "favorite" :troll: over there used to be a certain 1 land 1x2, who owns a company developing "fractal antennas," who always had to have the last word on any subject.

His pinnacle was when he loudly denounced anyone who "harvested" a SK call... stomped all over the thread against anyone who disagreed with him... but was outed as having done exactly that himself.

Real chip off the old block.


Oh yeah, i certainly remember Chippy-girl. Self proclaimed "inventor" of the fractal antenna, holder of every ham radio award known to man, accomplished brilliant musician. I had to hand him his ass on a few occasions...especially in the music catagory. Remember his profile pic of him onstage playing guitar, wearing a fez? I made fun of him so hard on it that he changed the pic the following week....he was smart, just not smart about being smart. We locked horns many times.

Do you remember his famous "its just a switch" troll when 'ECI announced the formation of the SKCC? He got some mileage out of that one. Evidence that he is a troll? He used it as his tagline. :lol: What a douche! I guess he just disappeared.

Then theres Bob 'PU (frequented here for a while), i actually DO hear Bob on the air quite a bit and he is a solid DXer. And of course theres Gino W6TH...dont know what happened to him. He always reminded me of Hank Hills dad on King of the Hill.

[ka4dpo]

i was looking at a wish list for 2010 on eham and, of course, it's littered with "bring back the CW requirement" and "Testing to occur only at FCC Federal buildings eliminating the VE program and its fraud" ... my question is "is there really that much fraud in the VE program? i've only heard of one or two instances since i've been licensed (not all that much time) ...
I am a W5YI VE, have been since 1992. I was part of a large VE team (now disbanded) here headed by Dow, WA4HMX, and Darlene, AC4VE, and the integrity of the group was without question. There were ARRL VE groups operating in the area at the same time, and I never heard an ill word spoken of them either.

It seems to me that the isolated incidents given so much attention are the exception to the rule. I firmly believe VE teams are, for the most part, impeccably honest people who follow the rules very carefully.


I think there were several instances in the 1980's shortly after the VE program was given the OK. Since then I think the VE program has had some isolated incidents but overall I think the majority are honest and very careful about how the exams are conducted. The only problem was that the one or two bad groups enabled a large number of boneheads to get licensed before the whistle got blown. I don't think it caused too much damage.....

[n2ize]

I think the test should be administered by the issuing agency, in this case the FCC. If it is inconvenient then that is tough. If you are dedicated to becoming a ham then you'll deal with the inconvenience and show up at the FCC headquaters ready and prepared for the exam. I also think the exams are too easy. The test should be hard.

[W3WN]

I think the test should be administered by the issuing agency, in this case the FCC. If it is inconvenient then that is tough. If you are dedicated to becoming a ham then you'll deal with the inconvenience and show up at the FCC headquaters ready and prepared for the exam. I also think the exams are too easy. The test should be hard.
Actually, I agree with you that the FCC should not have abdicated their responsibility. And not just with the Amateur Service but with the Commercial exams as well.

The truth of the matter is that the process of running the tests, processing the tests, creating the tests, etc. got to be too expensive. License fees didn't actually go to the FCC to offset costs, but into the general treasury. IIRC they only got a fraction of the collected fees back into their budgets (do you know how much the broadcasters used to pay for their licenses? Again, it wasn't just hams)

You want the FCC back in the testing business? You'll have to convince them, and convince them how they should fund it. Let's be honest: Not going to happen. Especially these days, when all appearances are that the Amateur Service is a bigger pain to them than it's worth, and they'd just as soon turn us into another unlicensed CB type service that they could wash their hands of if they could. I mean, we used the facts to help stop BPL pretty much dead in it's tracks, just by pointing out all the flaws in their grand scheme to pawn it onto the masses, how dare we?

Nor are the tests going to get harder. The mission of the NCVEC seems to be to make everything easier than ever. The irony is that, IMHO, the harder you have to work to accomplish something, the more you appreciate it. Makes you wonder if that's a factor in the attitudes of some of the yahoos who seem to have gotten their tickets in their boxes of Cracker Jacks...

I don't know about you, but I had to work my assets off to get my Extra. (Actually, the Advanced theory was tougher, but I digress). Now? I have a good friend who back in the day barely passed his General, who was just minted an Extra a few weeks back... and he's still totally clueless, and I'm not just talking about radio, either.

This is not to say that everyone taking the tests these days is a moron, mind you... but it makes you wonder if the people who've been ramming this stuff through have really thought through the long term consequences of their actions.

[AA8AE]

Back in the day When I took my novice in the basement of a club members home. I remember the code test, him opening the envelope and handing the test to me, finishing it and watching him put it back in the envelope and sealing it. As I remember he did tell me it looked good.

The Tech and General were taken at the FCC in Downtown Detroit. Boy was I scared!

The Advanced was taken at the local Club but, back then I think they had to mail it to the FCC for grading, It was a long time ago and my memory isn't what it was.

I really enjoyed the Extra, I knew right away that I passed.

As far as knowledge about the ins and out of Ham Radio I think that It's a forgone conclusion that everyone should have an Elmer or Club to go to for help. The only stupid question is the one that is never asked!

[suddenseer]

The Tech and General were taken at the FCC in Downtown Detroit. Boy was I scared!


Did Mr. Cotton the original W8DX admin your exams? I was a teenager then, but he made me sweat bullets.

[AA8AE]

The Tech and General were taken at the FCC in Downtown Detroit. Boy was I scared!


Did Mr. Cotton the original W8DX admin your exams? I was a teenager then, but he made me sweat bullets.

I don't remember. That was 1982, I've developed CRS since then, I do remember sweating bullets though.

[AE1PT]

I met a couple hams over the years (extra class holders from south Kentucky) that there was no doubt that they were "upgraded" by fraud. The VE's were their buddies, and neither one knew a single character of code--or an ohm from a couch cushion. Listen to some of the critters on the 75m possum nets and think about it... :lol:

[N8YX]

I met a couple hams over the years (extra class holders from south Kentucky) that there was no doubt that they were "upgraded" by fraud. The VE's were their buddies, and neither one knew a single character of code--or an ohm from a couch cushion. Listen to some of the critters on the 75m possum nets and think about it... :lol:
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind.

Remember the "Conditional" license? Seems a good number of folks (many of whom arguably shouldn't hold an amateur ticket) somehow managed to bamboozle their way into one via abuse of that program. :wall

[suddenseer]

I met a couple hams over the years (extra class holders from south Kentucky) that there was no doubt that they were "upgraded" by fraud. The VE's were their buddies, and neither one knew a single character of code--or an ohm from a couch cushion. Listen to some of the critters on the 75m possum nets and think about it... :lol:
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind.

Remember the "Conditional" license? Seems a good number of folks (many of whom arguably shouldn't hold an amateur ticket) somehow managed to bamboozle their way into one via abuse of that program. :wall

I think that license was grandfathered into general class. I never met, or qso'ed with one that I know of. Too bad a simple mental wellness screening is required. That would probably keep me out :cheers:

[N8YX]

I think that license was grandfathered into general class. I never met, or qso'ed with one that I know of.
K5BLB.

And at least two of the old 14.313 crowd were Conditionals.

None of the above had a thing wrong with 'em which precluded attending a regular testing session, with the possible exception of being a little short in the gray-matter department.

[suddenseer]

I think that license was grandfathered into general class. I never met, or qso'ed with one that I know of.
K5BLB.

And at least two of the old 14.313 crowd were Conditionals.

None of the above had a thing wrong with 'em which precluded attending a regular testing session, with the possible exception of being a little short in the gray-matter department.

Wow, I have not listened to that stuff for years. When Herbie lost his license it became boring. How did he get his license re-instated? I have 'been away' on 6M for some time. I remember BLB, 'Paulie the parrot', NR5T aka "TURD"
Does the MM net still think they own 14.313? I need to get my tri bander back up.

[W7XF]

Does the MM net still think they own 14.313? I need to get my tri bander back up.

Nope. They have strongarmed 14.300 now.

[suddenseer]

Does the MM net still think they own 14.313? I need to get my tri bander back up.

Nope. They have strongarmed 14.300 now.

Funny how those net participants/controllers cannot produce any documents proving ownership of a frequency.

[N7YA]

Sure they do, but it comes in the form of 1.5 KW.

[suddenseer]

Sure they do, but it comes in the form of 1.5 KW.

Does that power corrupt as well? :lol: I forgot about that. I used to get pissed when I heard W1AW start code practice, or bulletins on top of already existing qso's. If we have a VE fraud/Island net can we get away with it too? I forgot, that would make us, them :rofl:

[N8YX]

If we have a VE fraud/Island net can we get away with it too?
Might I suggest 14.313 for this? Seems rather prophetic, what with the "sea" connotation that was acquired over the years. :yes:

[ka4dpo]

Back in the day When I took my novice in the basement of a club members home. I remember the code test, him opening the envelope and handing the test to me, finishing it and watching him put it back in the envelope and sealing it. As I remember he did tell me it looked good.

The Tech and General were taken at the FCC in Downtown Detroit. Boy was I scared!

The Advanced was taken at the local Club but, back then I think they had to mail it to the FCC for grading, It was a long time ago and my memory isn't what it was.

I really enjoyed the Extra, I knew right away that I passed.

As far as knowledge about the ins and out of Ham Radio I think that It's a forgone conclusion that everyone should have an Elmer or Club to go to for help. The only stupid question is the one that is never asked!


I remember taking my General and Advanced exams at the FCC office in Tampa, FL and I was also scared. The old lady who administerd the test never smiled once, she looked like a Russian prison guard. The guy that did the code testing was also a poker faced guy who must have been a Gunny in his former life. I spent months preparing for those tests and it payed off. I bet money I could walk into a VE session today with a hangover and pass it... :cheers:

[suddenseer]

I remember taking my General and Advanced exams at the FCC office in Tampa, FL and I was also scared. The old lady who administerd the test never smiled once, she looked like a Russian prison guard. The guy that did the code testing was also a poker faced guy who must have been a Gunny in his former life. I spent months preparing for those tests and it payed off. I bet money I could walk into a VE session today with a hangover and pass it... :cheers:

You might be able to walk in the night before the hangover and pass it :cheers: :cheers: