Home network

[kf0rt]

Maybe this is an easy one for one of you network experts (I used to think I knew what I was doing with this stuff).

Got two computers, both running XP Home. Both are connected to the same wired router and both have Internet access through the router, which is also connected to a cable modem. This all works, no prob.

For the life of me, I can't seem to get the two computers to see each other. On "computer A", I have file sharing set up on one folder (MP3 stuff) and have the printer set up as shared. "Computer B" doesn't see "A" when I try to map the network share or printer.

Any ideas? Gotta be missing something pretty simple? I had all this working before I replaced the boot drive in "A".

[kc2orw]

Installing Windows Networking if it didn't get installed (A very rare occurrence)

You won't necessarily see local computers on a network if they aren't using the same service level protocol. IP networking doesn't provide for any automatic viewing of local computers. You can ping the IP addresses and if you use a host files you can connect to a service running on another computer, like a web server or an ftp server. There is a simple and a more complicated set of services for windows. One you need Windows server edition and one can be installed for use in a peer to peer network.

1) First find out whats installed by bringing up the network properties one method, there are several, is to open up the control panel and then find the network connection icon. Once you get that open double click on local area connections you get another dialog which should contain Client For Microsoft Networks and File and Printer Service for Microsoft Networks. If not move down to the next part.

2) The XP home edition gives you the lesser version of that service protocol, Client For Microsoft Networks and Windows File and Print services which is pretty much the equivalent of the ancient product "Windows for Workgroups". You can look and see if the option is available by going to the add/remove software applet and go to add/remove windows components, click on that. You get another dialog scroll though that and see if find networking service in that select it and click on details. If you got that far you might/should see peer-to-peer in the details dialog. If so select that it will try to install that and may prompt you for the windows cd it may also require you to reboot.

These conditions are pretty rare these days and only might occur with computers that didn't have a built in network adapter.

Revised to make this post more useful

[kc2orw]

Maybe this is an easy one for one of you network experts (I used to think I knew what I was doing with this stuff).

Got two computers, both running XP Home. Both are connected to the same wired router and both have Internet access through the router, which is also connected to a cable modem. This all works, no prob.

For the life of me, I can't seem to get the two computers to see each other. On "computer A", I have file sharing set up on one folder (MP3 stuff) and have the printer set up as shared. "Computer B" doesn't see "A" when I try to map the network share or printer.

Any ideas? Gotta be missing something pretty simple? I had all this working before I replaced the boot drive in "A".

Most of what I know about Windows XP is about the Pro edition not the Home so some default values I cite may not be the values used in XP Home.

If your computers at home that are networked aren't seeing each other here is a list of items to check.

First these initial questions...

1) Are you using static or dynamic addresses (DHCP)

2) If using dhcp does it provide Wins service (it's a dynamic locater service) some routers actually support this. (Windows Internet Name Service, WINS)

3) If not you are having a problem with locater services (DNS, DHCP, WINS) you can also edit the host file so the two or more computer know how to map an ip address to a wins name (windows specific) or an IP name. The host file is a common file used in IP networking though it is getting less used as time goes forward.
The host file is located in c:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc if computers aren't seeing each other editing this file will help sort out issues like this.
Now what I think you main problem is this the Windows Workgroup networking protocol is very deficient and will allow two network workgroups to coexist together using the same name and yet remain unaware or inaccessible to each other. You can have a situation with Windows Worgroup networking where you don't have a Wins server running that is visible by both computers. In Windows for Workgroup networking on computer or the other automatically becomes the wins server. This is not the full featured wins service that is available in Windows NT 4.0 and up server.
So you may need to edit the host file with notepad in order for the computers on a network to actually see each other if there is a failure somewhere in the network installation process.

I have seen this before where people have two workgroups named WORKGROUP, WORKGROUPS is the default name used by Windows XP Pro. It seems the default name for XP Home edition is MSHOME I verified this partially.


*Open Control Panel and then find System double click on that and find the Computer Name tab, click on change.
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/cpsystemprops.jpg


*You will now see the following Computer Name changes You will probably see WorkGroup and WORKGROUP in the textbox
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/systempropname.jpg

*You hopefully have edited the host file and added appropriate entries to it like this. If not examine the following graphic.
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/etchostsfile.jpg

*So after you have finished editing the host file return to the Computer Names Changes and check ip connectivity between the two or more machines by pinging them.
Use Windows Key + R to bring up the run dialog and type cmd and then press ok you should get to the following.
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/cmdping.jpg

*Type ping -a 192.168.0.5 and you will something like the above if not you maybe needed to reboot or something else is wrong. Everything worked on all machines back and forth etcetera so on and so forth.
Return to Computer Name Changes and change the workgroup name to something more significant like kf0rt or whatever you like.

Now here is an issue I just thought of it might be easier if you had one similar account name between the two computers. If you have the same name between the two (or more) computers skip that step.

* Return to the "Computer Name Change" dialog and change the name to your selection and click OK. You should see the following if it worked and most likely on the first computer it will, the second machine is the real test..
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/namechangegood.jpg
You will need to move to the next computer and do the same make sure you sign on as the same name and doublecheck that you can ping only do ping by name this time. Ping computername and if you get a good response then join the new workgroup name.
Nine times out of ten this resolves the same name two workgroups issue and you should be able to see other computers in the Workgroup Network

http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/workgroup.jpg
Nothing in this workgroup but I usually connect to a domain...

Edited a number of times and generalized to render the instructions and suggested methods more useful for a future reader
Additional External Resources:
Microsoft WINS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Internet_Name_Service)

Lan Manager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAN_Manager) Precursor to Windows for Workgroups

NTLM (New Technology LAN Manager) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTLM) The name used for the current successor of Microsoft Networking portions are included in Workgroup networking and Windows Domain networking. (Windows NT 4.0 Domain Networking, Windows Active Directory Domain networking (Windows 2000 Server and up))

[N3ATS]

Heh, cool! I always wanted to do that here.

[kc2orw]

Heh, cool! I always wanted to do that here.
Yeah it can be amusing and you can offload or retrieve files from another machine...
This peer to peer networking is really an enhanced version of the old IBM Lanman protocol.
The reason you can have two workgroups named workgroup is that this is just the descriptive name the real wins name is a combination of the name and a Guid (Globally Unique IDentifier) you might see something like this in the wins management applet ComputerName-S-97-GH-072-D0$ which is hard for a user to deal with so the user only sees the friendly name.

I use Windows Domain Networking which is a combination of DNS. LDAP and Kerberos a very modified version of kerberos.

[kf0rt]

Many thanks for taking the time, Alan!

Both computers belong to the "MSHOME" workgroup (this all feels a bit like the old Windows for Workgroups 3.11 stuff). Both have Client for Microsoft Networks and File and Printer Sharing for Microsoft Networks installed/enabled.

I haven't tried to set up a name in the hosts file -- never needed to before, but I can see the utility in that. It's almost like the router is blocking the connection, but I haven't touched anything in the router since rebuilding the "A" box.

Will play some more and verify all this when I get a clear shot at the other box (wife's playing WoW now).

Before, this has all been real easy: Enable sharing and set up the shares. I'm baffled as to why it would be any different this round.

I'll do some more checking and report back... :)

[kc2orw]

Many thanks for taking the time, Alan!

Both computers belong to the "MSHOME" workgroup (this all feels a bit like the old Windows for Workgroups 3.11 stuff). Both have Client for Microsoft Networks and File and Printer Sharing for Microsoft Networks installed/enabled.

I haven't tried to set up a name in the hosts file -- never needed to before, but I can see the utility in that. It's almost like the router is blocking the connection, but I haven't touched anything in the router since rebuilding the "A" box.

Will play some more and verify all this when I get a clear shot at the other box (wife's playing WoW now).

Before, this has all been real easy: Enable sharing and set up the shares. I'm baffled as to why it would be any different this round.

I'll do some more checking and report back... :)

Almost exactly the same as Windows for Workgroups 3.11 might want to think of as Windows for Workgroups NT4.0 . There may be some enhancements but not much from a functional perspective, oh maybe one difference MS began neglecting it in favor of Domain Networking but they still include it. :lol:

[kc2orw]

Ah, I just thought of this one... wireless networking without WEP security enabled Windows Domain Networking doesn't work (it is documented by Microsoft on technet)
It might be that Windows for Workgroup networking doesn't work under this condition either...

[N2RJ]

Do you have the firewall enabled on each machine? If so, disable it. Microsoft in their wisdom made the firewall block everything - including their own protocol (SMB).

Here's a simple test to see if you can connect to the other machine.

Click Start -> Run

Then type \\other machine's IP address\

Then click OK.

You should see a list of what is on that machine, and you can right click the folder and either map a drive, or make a shortcut somewhere.

You can go Alan's route, but for quick and dirty filesharing, my method does the trick.

To get the other machine's IP, type "ipconfig /all" from the command prompt.

[kc2orw]

Do you have the firewall enabled on each machine? If so, disable it. Microsoft in their wisdom made the firewall block everything - including their own protocol (SMB).

Here's a simple test to see if you can connect to the other machine.

Click Start -> Run

Then type \\other machine's IP address\

Then click OK.

You should see a list of what is on that machine, and you can right click the folder and either map a drive, or make a shortcut somewhere.

You can go Alan's route, but for quick and dirty filesharing, my method does the trick.

To get the other machine's IP, type "ipconfig /all" from the command prompt.

Thats the method I recommend to others when I don't know how much they know or understand otherwise I usually end up using net use /u:yadyadayada\yadayadayada \\compnames\c$ etc :lol:

[N2RJ]

Well that's pretty much how I do it. MS networking is so screwed up I just map drives for what I want by IP address at home.

One of my "windows" machines was actually a Linux box running Samba. Lots of fun there.

[kc2orw]

Well that's pretty much how I do it. MS networking is so screwed up I just map drives for what I want by IP address at home.

One of my "windows" machines was actually a Linux box running Samba. Lots of fun there.
Yes Windows workgroup networking can be bad but also the workgroup version is just flat out neglected. Why not they really want people to use Windows 2003 AD Networking...
With Linux I just use ssh sftp for the most part a great sftp client for windows is winscp but filezilla (sftp) does okay too

http://winscp.net/eng/index.php

[K8YS]

I did not think that WINXP HOME version could be networked. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that was one of the differences between Home and Pro.

[kc2orw]

I did not think that WINXP HOME version could be networked. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that was one of the differences between Home and Pro.

XP home can not connect to a Windows Server running Active Directory Domain service the client is not licensed to do so and is not capable. But Windows Workgroup Networking has been a give away product since NT 4.0 and was included in Windows 95. To connect Windows 95 to NT 4.0 Domain services you had to install the Client for Windows Domains which was available on the NT 4.0 CD. The licensing was a lot less restrictive back then and it was easy to do illegally, not as easy these days.
The security feature, such as they are, are simplified in XP Home Edition some management features are missing but XP Home isn't radically different then XP Pro.
Since I don't use the home edition I forgot that the home edition can't use dollar sign shares, which are built in with pro.
C$, IPC$, ADMIN$
If you have XP Pro type compmgmt.msc in the run dialog and look in shared folders/shares to see the $ shares on the current machine but you have to have admin privileges to even look at it.

KF0RT definitely check the firewall settings as Ryan suggested it could just be that too I never had an issue with that one myself...
PS: I just recalled this you should be able to keep the firewall running and enable file and print services...
Let me get the setting and add a few more screen shots.

compmgmt.msc showing shares
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/compmgmtshares.jpg

Ok firewall setting open control panel double click on security setting and the security center will be displayed
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/securitycenter.jpg

Click on fire wall and select the exceptions tab you might already see File and Printer sharing available and just have to check it to make it available.
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/firewall.jpg

You can also edit the scope of availability to various setting but subnet make them only available on your local network
http://www.akroeger.com/windowsnetworking/firewallexceptions.jpg

[kf0rt]

Thanks again, all! (Edit: see next post for solution, I'll leave this here because all the "clues" are there.)

This may be a clue...
If I run ipconfig /all on the machines, it says "A" is 192.168.0.2 and "B" is 192.168.2.100. This seems odd to me because I thought DHCP from the router would assign sequentially starting at 192.168.0.2.

Indeed, if I go into the router, it says it has assigned 192.168.0.3 to the "B" machine. If I ping 0.3 from the "A" box, it works. If I ping 2.100, it doesn't. Where is this 2.100 address coming from?

Another oddity... Last night while playing with this, I decided to delete and reinstall the ethernet card on the "B" machine. Did that, and when it came back up the "Found new hardware" balloon thingy came up and said it found a D-Link router. There is no D-Link router on the network here (used to be, but it died and I replaced it with a Netgear). The D-Link is in a box in the closet. It's almost like PART of the "B" machine is still working on the old D-Link settings, yet it's getting along with the Internet just fine.

http://tatanka02.home.comcast.net/net1.jpg
Odd, too... It shows the "B" machine's name as DI-604. That's not it's name -- DI-604 is the model number of the old D-Link router.

More and more, I'm convinced that the problem is with the "B" machine and may have happened when I switched routers.

I did turn off all the Windows firewall stuff (print and file sharing was already set up as an exception), but it made no difference.

[kf0rt]

Galdanged kids!!!!

Routers all over the place here I didn't know about. Got to thinking about the D-Link issue and thought I'd check the "guest bedroom" here where my daughter and son-in-law stay when they're in town. Sitting on the nightstand, a USR wireless router. Guess we're wireless and I didn't know it. Looking around the "B" machine, and what's this? Another D-Link DI-604 all wired in and running.

Pulled that out, everything works fine now. <growl> SIL has a MacBook that runs wireless (last I checked, he was using the neighbor's connection). Shouldn't need the D-Link.

Geeez...

Thanks again for all the help and comments. I *did* learn a bit! :D

73, Rob

[kc2orw]

Wow what a tale you had a smidgen of some of all the problems, oh well networks get messy if no one is looking after them even little ones. Stuff happens and well I guess now you are working and you got a few new techniques to help keep it running.
Happy surfing :lol:

[kf0rt]

Yeah... doncha think I deserve some sort of award for taking two HOURS to find a friggin' connected router in my own house?

This should do nicely:
http://samueljscott.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/homer_simpson.jpg

BTW, related story... When I first got back into ham radio 3+ years ago after about 15 years away, I bought a TS-570 and a vertical. Got it all set up and working, but 20 meters was all but destroyed due to S9+10 noise. It took me a couple months to get around to looking for it. I killed the main power to the house and the noise went away. Went breaker by breaker to isolate it, then outlet by outlet on that circuit. Guess what? It was an Ethernet hub my daughter's then-fiancee' had left behind on one of his trips out here. The kid's smart, but from now on when they leave, I think I'll replace my "Drive carefully" farewell with "Leave any switching gear behind?"

[kc2orw]

The kid's smart, but from now on when they leave, I think I'll replace my "Drive carefully" farewell with "Leave any switching gear behind?"
Good idea :lol: