Does anyone else tire of the constant change?

[al2i]

I hate the way things change so fast. I have quite a bit of programming I did in Java and C that I cannot even get into for a quick update without learning a stupid new environment, finding my old function libraries are defunct or my oft-used classes are "deprecated". It is pretty irritating. I don't have time to waste re-learning how to ride the compilers every few years. Crap.

There are some micro-controllers that have remained popular for 20+ years, and I wish that I had been into those just because of the stability of the technology.

[kc2orw]

I don't hate change if it adds value but MS constantly altering the gui while adding questionable value is ridiculous.
They do however address some issue even if it isn't visible to the user and might feel like people won't update if there isn't visible evidence of an upgrade. To me XP was working well enough and anything added in Vista could have been done so in a service pack. But how else is MS going to make more money if we run XP for ten years with only add new service packs :lol:

[M0GLO]

The pace is pretty brisk, I have to constantly be learning or I'll be obsolete by next year.

It's always a game of catch up, even if your working the industry.

[kc2orw]

Also note that while some microcontrollers are still in use there are a lot of new ones that add even more functionality.

[N2RJ]

You'll find that if you're in things, your learning curve is incremental, versus if you're out of it you'll be rolling a lead ball up a hill.

[al2i]

You'll find that if you're in things, your learning curve is incremental, versus if you're out of it you'll be rolling a lead ball up a hill.

I am rolling uphill. :(

[AK7V]

Yep, it's really fast paced.

Fortunately, if you know C or C++, you can figure out the new languages and environments pretty quickly. The hardest thing for me, as an assembly/C guy, was the switch to object-oriented programming, fancy GUIs, and massive overhead.

I mostly use assembly language at work if I need to program something other than matlab/scilab stuff. Makes it simple. I don't need to "develop" anything, and I like it like that. My C++ chops are fairly rusty anyway.

At home, I use Python and/or C and call it a day.

[N1LAF]

Wait until you see and work Microsoft Word 2007. Oh boy, so much fun. Microsoft 'COULD' have the option for old style drop down menu bar to ease the transition to this 'new' motif. There are a lot of neat features in 2007, but the lack of that drop down menu, and try to find anything and everything is VERY FRUSTRATING!!!

Having learned BASIC, Assembly, PASCAL, learning 'C' was a snap. But I never did get into using C with objects and classes, I moved on to hardware design.


There are some micro-controllers that have remained popular for 20+ years, and I wish that I had been into those just because of the stability of the technology. Well, it's not too late to get back into it. Has anyone checked out Dallas/Maxim Ethernet ready processors on a souped up 8051? I will be checking this device in the near feature.

As far as programming goes, I program using LabVIEW extensively. I can whip up a multicast attachment to LabVIEW programs within minutes. Its fast, powerful, takes the pain out of programming, it handles all the file and networking interfaces, and still allows for low level driver development, as well as creating custom DLL's. Program development in LabVIEW is 8 to 10 times faster than the 'C' and Java counterparts. The downside is that National Instruments LabVIEW is *Expensive*, and National Instruments are taking on IBM and Microsoft attitudes which has led to a small rebellion within the LabVIEW community, much like Linux is to Microsoft. When I say expensive, expect to pay $2400 for Full development kit with application builder, something that the hobbyist will not do.

[M0GLO]

Ouch! $2400 is too much to spend unless you are getting paid for it for sure!
You'd have to be some kind of manic home experimentalist to justify that cost without a contract or job driving you.

Or rich, that works too.

[N2RJ]

If you guys think Microsoft is bad with releasing new stuff and patches, you will cringe at the Unix world.

Believe it or not, Unix (any flavor) is not a flawless operating system that just runs itself. Well, it is, but that's not the point! The point is that there must be 10x the patches for Unix OSes than there are for any flavor of Windows.

There's a catch though - most of those patches aren't mandatory, and some vendors like Sun microsystems don't recommend installing patches that you don't need for a particular piece of (usually 3rd party) software.

Oh, and speaking of new stuff in the Unix world, don't you hate when a particular package is updated that the switches, options or syntax change all of a sudden? It makes stuff a bit confusing if you're maintaining legacy environments as well as brand new bleeding edge.

[AK7V]

You're right Ryan. I'm not an IT pro, so I don't use it at work, but I've run some form of Linux at home exclusively since 1995 and the patch/update pace is really fast now. I don't even bother with the automatic Ubuntu upgrades/updates now because my computer is too old to show much of a difference. I'm not overly worried about security either.

But it is telling when I want to upgrade one thing - like maybe Python - and a zillion other upgrades occur to satisfy dependencies.

[kf0rt]

Wait until you see and work Microsoft Word 2007. Oh boy, so much fun. Microsoft 'COULD' have the option for old style drop down menu bar to ease the transition to this 'new' motif. There are a lot of neat features in 2007, but the lack of that drop down menu, and try to find anything and everything is VERY FRUSTRATING!!!

Having learned BASIC, Assembly, PASCAL, learning 'C' was a snap. But I never did get into using C with objects and classes, I moved on to hardware design.


There are some micro-controllers that have remained popular for 20+ years, and I wish that I had been into those just because of the stability of the technology. Well, it's not too late to get back into it. Has anyone checked out Dallas/Maxim Ethernet ready processors on a souped up 8051? I will be checking this device in the near feature.

As far as programming goes, I program using LabVIEW extensively. I can whip up a multicast attachment to LabVIEW programs within minutes. Its fast, powerful, takes the pain out of programming, it handles all the file and networking interfaces, and still allows for low level driver development, as well as creating custom DLL's. Program development in LabVIEW is 8 to 10 times faster than the 'C' and Java counterparts. The downside is that National Instruments LabVIEW is *Expensive*, and National Instruments are taking on IBM and Microsoft attitudes which has led to a small rebellion within the LabVIEW community, much like Linux is to Microsoft. When I say expensive, expect to pay $2400 for Full development kit with application builder, something that the hobbyist will not do.

I pay my bills programming on an 80188 (now obsolete) and a Moto 68K part (ditto). I'm using the Wind River Diab C compiler for the 68K stuff -- it cost $2500 and our maintenance contract ran out 5 years ago. BTW, the DIAB compiler is command-line driven -- no fancy "development environment." Use the M80 assembler for the 188, it's free. We're FINALLY starting to look at new stuff, but only because the market has forced us into it.

Intel, BTW, dumped a whole boatload of their old processors about a year ago, including the 8051, 8048, and everything up to and including the 80486. They're no longer made, at least from Intel. AMD makes a few, and you can buy some ASIC cores, but for the most part, these things are done.

My boss and I are starting to have conversations about whether things have become too complex to properly maintain. Not just our own projects, but things in general. I gave up writing Windows bloatware about three years ago because it was to hard to be good at it -- you almost have to specialize in one area. So, back to embedded.... (I always liked it better anyway).

So... In the Linux vs. Microsoft war, who is the Democrat and who is the Republican? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

[N2RJ]

So... In the Linux vs. Microsoft war, who is the Democrat and who is the Republican? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Linux is the liberal, for sure. All changes to the source code have to be divulged. Besides, would you look at the cute penguin? He's a mixture of black and white. Clearly, only the DEMS would support such a mix of colors.

Microsoft is run by big business and all source is closed. Furthermore, every new "enhancement" Microsoft brings to the table always makes your life miserable. Like the Iraq war, Windows was poorly planned and they're trying a billion different things to fix it, all while creating new problems. Yet remarkably it has widespread support, for god alone knows what reason.

[N1LAF]

Ryan, very funny. But where does UNIX fit in? Could they be more republican? I would put Microsoft as socialist/communist, not republican. Microsoft knows what is best for you, and how to do it, it doesn't matter what you want, you will get what we dictate to you. Case in point: See Word 2007? They 'could' have included the option for the legacy menu bar to ease the transition to their new motif, or for the 'preference' of the user, but Nooooooo, they make us hunt and find these features that we have been accustomed to. I find Word 2007 neat and frustrating at the same time.

I hear you about Microsoft. Has Vista become the next Millennium? I have been very pleased with the stability and compatibility of XP Pro /SP2. Best since Win98SE.

[N1LAF]

Wait until you see and work Microsoft Word 2007. Oh boy, so much fun. Microsoft 'COULD' have the option for old style drop down menu bar to ease the transition to this 'new' motif. There are a lot of neat features in 2007, but the lack of that drop down menu, and try to find anything and everything is VERY FRUSTRATING!!!

Having learned BASIC, Assembly, PASCAL, learning 'C' was a snap. But I never did get into using C with objects and classes, I moved on to hardware design.


There are some micro-controllers that have remained popular for 20+ years, and I wish that I had been into those just because of the stability of the technology. Well, it's not too late to get back into it. Has anyone checked out Dallas/Maxim Ethernet ready processors on a souped up 8051? I will be checking this device in the near feature.

As far as programming goes, I program using LabVIEW extensively. I can whip up a multicast attachment to LabVIEW programs within minutes. Its fast, powerful, takes the pain out of programming, it handles all the file and networking interfaces, and still allows for low level driver development, as well as creating custom DLL's. Program development in LabVIEW is 8 to 10 times faster than the 'C' and Java counterparts. The downside is that National Instruments LabVIEW is *Expensive*, and National Instruments are taking on IBM and Microsoft attitudes which has led to a small rebellion within the LabVIEW community, much like Linux is to Microsoft. When I say expensive, expect to pay $2400 for Full development kit with application builder, something that the hobbyist will not do.

I pay my bills programming on an 80188 (now obsolete) and a Moto 68K part (ditto). I'm using the Wind River Diab C compiler for the 68K stuff -- it cost $2500 and our maintenance contract ran out 5 years ago. BTW, the DIAB compiler is command-line driven -- no fancy "development environment." Use the M80 assembler for the 188, it's free. We're FINALLY starting to look at new stuff, but only because the market has forced us into it.

Intel, BTW, dumped a whole boatload of their old processors about a year ago, including the 8051, 8048, and everything up to and including the 80486. They're no longer made, at least from Intel. AMD makes a few, and you can buy some ASIC cores, but for the most part, these things are done.

My boss and I are starting to have conversations about whether things have become too complex to properly maintain. Not just our own projects, but things in general. I gave up writing Windows bloatware about three years ago because it was to hard to be good at it -- you almost have to specialize in one area. So, back to embedded.... (I always liked it better anyway).

So... In the Linux vs. Microsoft war, who is the Democrat and who is the Republican? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

I know where you are going and thinking, and we are in the same situation. I have been using PIC microcontrollers from http://www.microchip.com, but have been out growing their limitations. Free IDE, lots of support, and never obsolete (which is key). Another line I am looking at as an upgrade to Microchip is 1)Actel FPGA with built-in ARM7 microcontroller and 2) Maxim DS80C411. I have been playing around with the Actel development kit, but the progress has been slow, and weak on the network support. The Maxim device is attractive because it has the familiar 8051 architecture and has ethernet MAC built in. Maxim uses 100 Mb ethernet, and microchip is stuck at 10 Mb. Maxim also has the never obsolete mentality.

Maxim DS80C411

[M0GLO]

Ryan, very funny. But where does UNIX fit in? Could they be more republican? I would put Microsoft as socialist/communist, not republican. Microsoft knows what is best for you, and how to do it, it doesn't matter what you want, you will get what we dictate to you. Case in point: See Word 2007? They 'could' have included the option for the legacy menu bar to ease the transition to their new motif, or for the 'preference' of the user, but Nooooooo, they make us hunt and find these features that we have been accustomed to. I find Word 2007 neat and frustrating at the same time.

I hear you about Microsoft. Has Vista become the next Millennium? I have been very pleased with the stability and compatibility of XP Pro /SP2. Best since Win98SE.

I'd call Linux Socio-Anarchist, Solaris socialist, AIX monarchist and HPUX totalitarian.

Windows Millennium fits the model of Republican, lots of promises but you get a dysfunctional system that needs to be rebuilt after a short and painful period of lockups and file system/registry corruption. :lol:

[kf0rt]

I know where you are going and thinking, and we are in the same situation. I have been using PIC microcontrollers from http://www.microchip.com, but have been out growing their limitations. Free IDE, lots of support, and never obsolete (which is key). Another line I am looking at as an upgrade to Microchip is 1)Actel FPGA with built-in ARM7 microcontroller and 2) Maxim DS80C411. I have been playing around with the Actel development kit, but the progress has been slow, and weak on the network support. The Maxim device is attractive because it has the familiar 8051 architecture and has ethernet MAC built in. Maxim uses 100 Mb ethernet, and microchip is stuck at 10 Mb. Maxim also has the never obsolete mentality.

Maxim DS80C411

I've been dabbling in the PIC stuff in my "off hours." That's some pretty neat stuff and it's essentially free. Not powerful enough for what we do at work, though. Our hardware guy is looking at a Cortex-M3 (ARM7) for the next generation stuff. Guess I'm not real picky as long as it overcomes the limitations we have today and allows a complete code rewrite, which is long overdue. The system I work on uses the Motorola 68EN360 for Ethernet and as a supervisory processor to the 80188 (two of the five processors on the board). We had some big plans for that setup that never really came to pass. It's hard to get management to see through all the software they'll be "throwing away" with a new design -- I tend to see it as a huge increase in efficiency and a lot of new things we couldn't do before.

[kf0rt]

Oh, and LMAO on the Microsoft comments. Nobody wants to be associated with the Microsoft Party. Poor Microsoft.

:lol: :lol: :twisted:

[N2RJ]

Ryan, very funny. But where does UNIX fit in? Could they be more republican? I would put Microsoft as socialist/communist, not republican. Microsoft knows what is best for you, and how to do it, it doesn't matter what you want, you will get what we dictate to you. Case in point: See Word 2007? They 'could' have included the option for the legacy menu bar to ease the transition to their new motif, or for the 'preference' of the user, but Nooooooo, they make us hunt and find these features that we have been accustomed to. I find Word 2007 neat and frustrating at the same time.

I hear you about Microsoft. Has Vista become the next Millennium? I have been very pleased with the stability and compatibility of XP Pro /SP2. Best since Win98SE.

Unix (we're talking about any Posix compliant OS here) is an authoritarian dictatorship. Dem or Rep? You decide.

Unix is unforgiving, meaning that YOU are responsible for your own mistakes. It's not like Windows that asks you "Yes or No" whenever you are about to do something dangerous. It just does it, and the end result is that you probably saved some time, or seriously screwed up something. Also, only the supreme dictator (root) gets to do anything dangerous, or fun for that matter.

I've had users ask me for root access then go complain to their supervisor when I told them "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."

[M0GLO]

Nice, in that light you are probably correct.

That makes us evil dictators.

And here I just thought I was a BOFH.

[N1LAF]

Ouch! $2400 is too much to spend unless you are getting paid for it for sure!
You'd have to be some kind of manic home experimentalist to justify that cost without a contract or job driving you.

Or rich, that works too.

Few years ago I found a copy of LabVIEW 3.1.1 at a neighborhood tag sale for $5. I bought it. Couple months later, I was talking to a sales manager, and I brought up the LabVIEW at the tag sale, price and all, explaining that LabVIEW 3.1.1 is where I started. He said he could upgrade me to LabVIEW 6.1 for $395 (software subscription program). I took him up on his offer, with application builder upgrade too. Recently I called to see if I could do the same thing for version 8.5, a significant upgrade. The rules have changed, that to upgrade from previous is now 50% of list price. I said forget it.

There are Student versions available.

LabVIEW is fun, fast, and powerful. I am an expert LabVIEW programmer. What I wanted from version 8.5 is the Multicasting modules, but I can do without. The patents are about to run out, if not already on the early stuff. I expect to see a competitor any day now, then the prices will fall.